Editing concerns

I'd definitely agree with the 90-120k limit. Yep, it's hard

I recently finished a YA novel that was 84K, which is too long for a first YA. I was terrified of taking anything out! But I went through and found the unnecessary scenes, cut them mercilessly, and then went through with a sharpened pencil and tightened every sentence. That cuts a LOT of words. I didn't realize how many unnecessary words there were! Without making any hugely drastic cuts (like major scenes, etc.,) I cut 4k. Which may not sound like a lot, but 80k sounds much better than 84. I'm currently aiming for 79 or -8k, which both sound even better.

It's hard, but it's worth it to have a tight manuscript and a reasonable word count. Good luck!

You've got to get it down below 120K words. Seriously. You can do it, too. If you need help, there are lots of people here to help.

I some how nailed 100K myself but I think what worked out for me was that I wrote a 2 parter.

I'm sure yo will have no trouble shrinking it down.

If you have to I would say cut a scene out that you feel does not have to be in the story persay and release the scene on your website (if you have one) for those die hard fans that like deleted scenes =)

swove said:

when I completed my book I had over 157K 376 pages.

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Which means you must be talking about single-spaced pages (and we don't know what font). Be aware that, for submission purposes, every manuscript must be double-spaced, and the only commonly acceptable fonts are Courier and Times New Roman, both at 12 pt. You may wish to do some research into manuscript preparation before you send anything out.

caw

Font and line spacing don't matter until you prepare a manuscript for submission. I work in 14 pt. Garamond font, single-spaced, when writing and editing on the computer. It takes about 30 seconds to convert things to submission format, so don't worry about this too much. I only mentioned it because you made a point of mentioning the number of pages, which was a tipoff.

caw

FYI :
It's also important to remember any italicized text must be underlined and converted back to plain text for submission.
Most editors won't deal with italics...italicized text too hard to read, and they expect the underling format instead.

Italics are used for thoughts, descriptions, some dialogue, memories, etc.

Best of luck on your edits. Lots and lots of work ahead of you , but that's actually the fun part.

. I am finding it difficult to take anything out as I feel it is needed to sustain the story, I am wondering have any of you found it difficult to take out parts of the story to make it flow better or sustain the story?

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You'd be surprised what you can take out without hurting the story. There are a lot of ways to shorten sentences and, ultimately make them better:

Watch for phrases like "I knew," "I noted, "I saw," etc. In most cases, these can easily be removed and the sentences will be better for it.

Look for things like repetitions (where you repeat the same point over and over, sometimes in the same paragraph, in the next sentence or on the same page). I actually had to go through the entire story looking for the numerous references to saying the characters were cold and removing most of them or doing it a different way where it was important.

You might want to check on the book The Marshall Plan for Writing. He has a great section on editing. You might discover some things that can be trimmed easily!

Oy Vey. My problem is the opposite. I always have to add in the editing stage. I wish I had the cutting problem...I think it would be easier. Best of luck with your editing.

Most editors won't deal with italics...italicized text too hard to read, and they expect the underling format instead.

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huh. i didn't know that. i hate reading underlined stuff. makes my eyes bug out. i find italics much easier to read. wonder why they prefer it? any clues?

Unique said:

huh. i didn't know that. i hate reading underlined stuff. makes my eyes bug out. i find italics much easier to read. wonder why they prefer it? any clues?

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It's true. I got a warning prior to submitting a piece once. Something like, "Whatever you do, don't send italics...I simply CANNOT deal with it. I can't read it and I won't." That's paraphrased but close to the original. I underline always.

Unique said:

huh. i didn't know that. i hate reading underlined stuff. makes my eyes bug out. i find italics much easier to read. wonder why they prefer it? any clues?

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Please check out this link : FAQ: Cathy C's Formatting Manuscripts for Submission - All your questions answered!
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26126

Cited from her FAQ :
"Italics
Definition: Usually used to make text stand out from surrounding text, "italics" is an appearance attribute that is available in most word processing programs.
Use in industry: In non-fiction and article writing, italics are used for headings, or lists when the use of bold text is undesirable. In fiction writing, italics are used for:
a) Emphasizing text. "You want to go where?"
b) Internal dialogue (character thoughts that aren’t spoken.) I shouldn’t have had that last burrito
c) Telepathy in SF/Fantasy novels. When characters can speak mind to mind, italics set this off for the convenience of the reader.

The use of italics in a manuscript is tricky. When typing using the Courier font, italics are merely slanted slightly, making it difficult to see italicized words. Therefore, most publishers request that words which are INTENDED to be italicized should be underlined (underscored) instead in the manuscript. That’s ONLY underscored, not both italicized AND underscored."

Hope this helps.

Unique said:

huh. i didn't know that. i hate reading underlined stuff. makes my eyes bug out. i find italics much easier to read. wonder why they prefer it? any clues?

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Because it's a lot easier to see. You have to think like an editor, not like a reader. It's way to easy to miss an italicized word when you're editing. If you don't believe this, try going through a manuscript searching for italicized words and phrases and changing them individually to underlines, then go back and see how many you missed.

caw

Moving post from Roundtable to Novels.

There's a big difference between cutting parts of the story and cutting words. What you should be looking for is unnecessary words to cut. Start with adverbs, and continue on to adjectives. Adverbs totally suck, and removing them immediately makes your prose read more cleanly and look more professional.

Look for any instance of repetition. In speech, repetition is highly effective, but in writing, it's deadly. David Byrne's Law is absolute: "Say something once -- why say it again?"

Description is also something that can usually be cut with no ill effects. Many successful novelists just don't like description (I don't -- slows down the story) and don't do it, or hardly do any.

I used to be a radio news reporter. Radio news is the most condensed form there is, so I spent about half my time cutting my stories to get them down to the 20- to 30-second time slots they had to fit. In the process, I learned how little it actually takes to tell a story.

When I started out, a typical story might go: "San Francisco Police Chief Heather Fong called a news conference this morning at the downtown Hilton Hotel to announce that she's resigning her post as of the first of next month."

By the time I left radio, the same story would be: "S.F. Police Chief Heather Fong is resigning as of next month."

When I wrote the first example (in real life), I thought every detail was necessary. Only because I had to find things to cut, did I come to realize how many details weren't needed at all.

Often, when editing a novel, I end up cutting something dear to my heart that I thought was absolutely essential when I wrote it, but voila! -- after it's gone, I clearly see the work is stronger without it.

Most published authors do a whole "hunter-killer" re-write, in which they only look for stuff to cut. Many (myself included) deliberately cultivate a sadistic attitude to help them "kill their babies." It sounds sick (and feels sick when you're doing it), but every time you find another "weakie" to cull from the herd, your story gets stronger.

Happy hunting, and welcome to the world of professional writing.

Unique said:

huh. i didn't know that. i hate reading underlined stuff. makes my eyes bug out. i find italics much easier to read. wonder why they prefer it? any clues?

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Because they're hide-bound creatures of habit. Many have been reading manuscripts since the days before every writer in the world owned a computer, so the MS's were typed, on typewriters, which don't have italics. Same reason many editors still insist on Courier font, because it looks typewritten. Only relatively recently have editors allowed Times New Roman as an alternative.

wayndom said:

Because they're hide-bound creatures of habit. Many have been reading manuscripts since the days before every writer in the world owned a computer, so the MS's were typed, on typewriters, which don't have italics. Same reason many editors still insist on Courier font, because it looks typewritten.

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Wrong. It's been said elsewhere in this thread, but apparently bears repeating. Many editors (me included) prefer to edit manuscripts in Courier font because, for the purposes of editing, it is simply much easier on the eyes over time, and much easier to spot errors. The same goes for underlining; italics are too easily missed.

The principle always to remember is this: You are not preparing your manuscript for the purpose of a pleasant reading experience for yourself or your best friend. You are preparing your manuscript for an editor. Do what the editor wants.

caw

It is RARE that agents and editors don't want italics. I used a ton of them and never had to underline anything for my agent OR my editor at Putnam- If you are submitting to agents it looks amateurish to underline (if used to be something you did before computers)
There are some small publishers that still require it along with some literary magazines - but if you are submitting to agents I wouldn't bother underlining- just use italics- This subject always gets a debate going!

ORION said:

It is RARE that agents and editors don't want italics. I used a ton of them and never had to underline anything for my agent OR my editor at Putnam- If you are submitting to agents it looks amateurish to underline (if used to be something you did before computers)
There are some small publishers that still require it along with some literary magazines - but if you are submitting to agents I wouldn't bother underlining- just use italics- This subject always gets a debate going!

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Wow! Really? That's the first time I heard that, which contradicts what was said a few posts before yours.

ORION said:

It is RARE that agents and editors don't want italics. I used a ton of them and never had to underline anything for my agent OR my editor at Putnam- If you are submitting to agents it looks amateurish to underline (if used to be something you did before computers)
There are some small publishers that still require it along with some literary magazines - but if you are submitting to agents I wouldn't bother underlining- just use italics- This subject always gets a debate going!

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Yeah, I don't know about that. Tor wants underlining instead of italics...
It's best to check the favored submission format with the publishing company or agent or editor you are targeting before you submit.

Technical, medical, news...these prefer italics to underlining. Maybe that's the difference, Orion.

For most fiction the standard is still underlining , as far as I know.

When you get the foul matter back do you find that the ce underlined all your nice italics and wrote "ital" (circled) in the margin?

Again I am just using my own experience- If you are submitting directly to a publisher of course you follow their submission guidelines. But for the query process I have not heard of an agent wanting italics underlined-
James I asked my editor if they wanted me to underline italics in my manuscript while we were editing and they said no -
For copyediting - They just made a note in the margin ital. but that was when we had discussions about adding some in or taking some out--
This discussion seemed to me to be centered around whether to underline when submitting queries and manuscripts for initial querying and NOT a discussion about what is done for the copyediting stage of the publishing process. And again I am just recounting what I have had actual experience with.