When referring to my characters dad.

Azure Skye · Mar 10, 2005

When I refer to my characters dad should I use his name (Frank said) or should I say, (her dad said), or is a combination of both ok.

James D. Macdonald · Mar 10, 2005

Either. Both.

How does the viewpoint character in each scene think of the individual?

Azure Skye · Mar 10, 2005

James D. Macdonald said:
Either. Both.

How does the viewpoint character in each scene think of the individual?

I'm not sure if I completely understand you but I'll answer anyway. When they're alone together, I just use her dad. When there are other characters around, if she is referring to him, I use, her dad, but when he is talking to someone else, like her friend, that's when I'm wondering if I should use his name or continue to say, her dad said or use Molly's dad said.

I hope that made some sense.

James D. Macdonald · Mar 10, 2005

Are you clear on the concept of viewpoint character?

Let's say that the Dad is Frank Blaine. His wife is Mary Blaine. His daughter is Susie Blaine. Her friend is Ruby O'Malley.

When we're seeing the scene from Mary's point of view (essentially through her eyes) we'll use

"The insurance man came by today," Frank said.

because she thinks of him as Frank.

When we're in Susie's point of view, the same scene, we'll use

"The insurance man came by today," dad said.

If we're watching that same scene through Ruby's eyes, the same scene will be written either

"The insurance man came by today," Susie's dad said.

or

"The insurance man came by today," Mr. Blaine said.

If Frank is the viewpoint character, it would be

"The insurance man came by today," I said.

Each scene should have one viewpoint character. (Yes, I know, it's possible to have multiple viewpoint characters, but let's keep it simple for right now.) In each scene (separated by line breaks or chapter breaks) figure out who your viewpoint is, and be strict with yourself. Your readers will thank you, and your writing will improve.

The Perdue Online Writing Lab is a great resource.

Mistook · Mar 10, 2005

Not to hijack the thread, but since we're on the topic of POV and how to address various characters...

Does anybody else have this problem when you have two guys or two girls and you're using the same pronoun for both? It's hard to maintain clarity in that situation. I'm just looking for examples of how people deal with it.

I guess this would be a third-person problem.

For instance, say we're looking at the scene from Jack's point of view, and he's working with Jerry...

"Jack crawled under the sink and shone his flashlight at the top of the supply lines. He thought he saw a leak. Jerry walked in, carrying a bucket of tools. He set it down. He wondered if he'd remembered the pliers."

That last sentence is an example of the train falling off the rails. Did Jerry wonder if Jack had remembered the pliers? Or was it the other way around? I guess this particular example could be cleared up by breaking it into dialogue, but even the most "showy" and not "telly" novel, it's possible to paint yourself into these ambiguous corners.

Sometimes, the easy way out is to abandon the pronouns and start naming names, but then you run the risk of sounding... insulting I guess, of the reader's intelligence.

Galoot · Mar 10, 2005

Mistook said:
"Jack crawled under the sink and shone his flashlight at the top of the supply lines. He thought he saw a leak. Jerry walked in, carrying a bucket of tools. He set it down. He wondered if he'd remembered the pliers."

Who's doing the wondering?

If it's Jack's POV:
"Jack crawled under the sink and shone his flashlight at the top of the supply lines. He thought he saw a leak. Jerry walked in, carrying a bucket of tools. Jack heard the rattling and wondered if his partner remembered the pliers."

If it's Jerry's POV:
"Jack crawled under the sink and shone his flashlight at the top of the supply lines. He thought he saw a leak. Jerry walked in, carrying a bucket of tools. He set it down, wondering if he'd remembered the pliers."

Both are a bit clumsy, but clear.

reph · Mar 10, 2005

Mistook said:
For instance, say we're looking at the scene from Jack's point of view, and he's working with Jerry...

"Jack crawled under the sink and shone his flashlight at the top of the supply lines. He thought he saw a leak. Jerry walked in, carrying a bucket of tools. He set it down. He wondered if he'd remembered the pliers."

If you hadn't specified that Jack was the POV guy, I would have said the last sentence translated to "Jerry wondered if he himself had remembered the pliers." Since Jack is the POV guy, I say you've got Jerry doing too much action, and his name or pronoun in the strong position at the beginnings of three consecutive sentences at that. Doing this switches the camera onto Jerry.

To keep to Jack's POV, this might work:
Jack crawled under the sink and shone his flashlight at the top of the supply lines. He thought he saw a leak. Jerry walked in and set down a bucket of tools. "Did you remember the pliers?" Jack said. It would have been just like Jerry to forget the pliers.

Or this:
. . . bucket of tools. Jerry wondered whether the pliers were in the bucket. He needed his channel-locks for this job.

Any "he" that follows directly after "bucket of tools" will be taken as referring to Jerry unless there's a very good reason to take it otherwise, because "Jerry" was the subject of the "bucket of tools" sentence. That "Jerry" was also the first word of that sentence makes the tendency even stronger.

JohnLynch · Mar 11, 2005

James D. Macdonald said:
If Frank is the viewpoint character, it would be

"The insurance man came by today," I said.

Actually, I very rarely (if ever) see "I said" in a novel. Instead it would be normal to have "he said" or "Frank said" if Frank is the viewpoint character. From what I've seen "I said" would only be used if the novel/section is written in first-person viewpoint, which happens very rarely. Instead third-person viewpoint is used (I think a more specific term is "limited third person" but I'm not too sure).

All of those sentences could either be first person or third person, except for the last one (from what I've noticed anyway).

James D. Macdonald said:
Each scene should have one viewpoint character.

From a reader's perspective, it's better to have chapters having one viewpoint character. Us readers tend to get confused quite a bit, seperating viewpoint characters by chapters makes it easy on us

If you have a large host of viewpoint characters (such as Kevin J Anderson in this novel) then having chapters have the viewpoint character's name beneath the chapter number/title is also a big help. I'd say anything with more then 10 main viewpoint characters can benefit from this

Robert Jordan's wheel of time series doesn't use this, and it's possible to follow. KAJ's hidden empire has approximately 14, and even with the names it was difficult at first

Mistook said:
Sometimes, the easy way out is to abandon the pronouns and start naming names, but then you run the risk of sounding... insulting I guess, of the reader's intelligence.

The only time you insult a reader's intelligence is when you cheat them. An example would be your having an interesting novel and it ends with "and blah blah woke up and realised it had all been a dream." Naming names won't be noticed, especially if the novel is interesting. If the novel's interesting I'm not worried about how many times you're saying "Jerry", but what is going to happen next. Heck, when I read, I don't see words. I see images

(unless it's boring).

In fact, I just opened up a random page in Stephen King's Insomnia and I skimmed it. I'd say he/she/her/him pronouns were used about 5 times. Names were used at least three times that. Now I can tell you, when I have read that book (and I've read it numerous times) I didn't feel insulted. I didn't even notice how many times names were used. All I was worried about was the action, feelings, interactions and what was going to happen next (even though I knew the second time I read it and the third time, the fourth time, etc).

James D. Macdonald · Mar 11, 2005

Jack crawled under the sink and shone his flashlight at the top of the supply lines. He thought he saw a leak.

Jerry walked in, carrying a bucket of tools, and set it down.

"Yo, Jerry!" Jack called. "You got the pliers?"

"You want the pliers?" Jerry asked.

"Nah, I just want to know if you have 'em," Jack said, as he continued to examine the pipes.

"I -- I don't remember."

You might want to consider renaming one or the other of these characters so they don't both have the same initial.

brinkett · Mar 11, 2005

JohnLynch said:
From a reader's perspective, it's better to have chapters having one viewpoint character. Us readers tend to get confused quite a bit, seperating viewpoint characters by chapters makes it easy on us

Hmm, I don't know about that. As long as scene breaks are obvious and the POV character is identified early in a new scene, I don't think it's all that confusing.

About this dad vs. Frank vs. he thing, if the POV character is an adult, do you still use mom or dad to identify them? I pulled a couple of books off my shelf and how it's done seems to vary. In one book, it was written as Uncle Jim suggested. In another book, Mom was used in thoughts, but Mom's actual name was used in dialogue tags and when describing what Mom was doing. As a reader, both worked for me in that I wasn't confused reading either scene.

However, now I'm confused about the proper way to do it.

Did one author commit a faux pas or are both methods acceptable?

And while I'm here, basic capitalization question: Are 'mom' and 'dad' capitalized when they're being used as a substitute for a name? Is it "blah, blah, blah," Dad said, or "blah, blah, blah," dad said? Is it, "she worried about what mom would say" or "she worried about what Mom would say"?

Azure Skye · Mar 11, 2005

James D. Macdonald said:
Are you clear on the concept of viewpoint character?

When we're in Susie's point of view, the same scene, we'll use
"The insurance man came by today," dad said.

Yep. The little girl is the viewpoint character and I seem to be maintaing that pov throughout, at least I think I am.

I've got another question but I think I'm confusing myself right now. I'll be back later.

Thanks.

When referring to my characters dad.

Azure Skye

Huh?

James D. Macdonald

Your Genial Uncle

Azure Skye

Huh?

James D. Macdonald

Your Genial Uncle

Mistook

Neverending WIP

Galoot

I am a pretty pretty flower

reph

Fig of authority

JohnLynch

James D. Macdonald

Your Genial Uncle

brinkett

Elder Scrolls devotee

Azure Skye

Huh?