sci-fi and fantasy Cliches (a rant)

Z. W. Van Kleeck · Jan 14, 2008

I'm finding myself growing more annoyed by overused cliches in these genres. Prophesies. the force-like powers. young boys rising to wizardry. These plots are so hashed out that reading is like having a McDonald's cheeseburger. Its alright, but you've already had one that tasted Just like it, even though it's not the same one.

The most recent novel i've read that was moderately original was Patrick Rothfuss' The Name of The Wind (an excelent book by the way). Even then, however, Kvothe (the main character) goes to a school where he learns Sygaldry (a magic that focus on alchemy) and other magical skills for a short time. its no harry potter, but it's still a school of wizardry.

This is just a rant, i'm not looking for a book to read, or an author that os extremely original. I just wish author put more stock into coming up with something new, instead of trying to take something old and reissue it with modern flare.

Game.Set.Match

Zachary Van Kleeck

Mr Flibble · Jan 14, 2008

I know what you mean, but there are plenty of fantasy books out there that are original. And if there's too much of one thing, it's not just the authors, it's the publishers too. They see how well JK Rowling has done, and want some of the money. But for me, sometimes it's the way it's written that is the pleasure of the book, and if it's written well enough, those cliches don't seem so cliched after all.

Z. W. Van Kleeck · Jan 14, 2008

that's true. How an SF books is written can greatly decide whether or not you will bear it's cliches or not. I just hate reading the books waiting for the main character to have his prophetic dream that foretells him meeting a long beared fellow at an inn four towns away. It's just not proper to leave town at such a young age, but he steals his father's pony, you know the one that he was riding two pages before, that part established that he is an exceptional rider even at his rediculously young age of 5 years old. He cuts purse the whole way to the inn and when he gets there.... CHAPTER2!!!!

you already know how that story goes haha.

DeleyanLee · Jan 14, 2008

And for every writer who screams "Cliches! Cliches!" (regardless of genre), there's hundreds, even thousands of readers who shell out money at the bookstores crying "But those are my FAVORITE BOOKS!"

The reason they get published is because people buy them. In droves. That's just the simplest fact. If people didn't buy them, then publishers wouldn't publish them. We writers might be bored senseless, but we're really the minority in this business. When deciding what to buy, the publishers aren't going to listen to us, they listen to the people with the money. And the consumer wants "same but different--but not too different." It's the nature of the beast.

While writing is an art, publishing is a business. Don't get the two confused.

Z. W. Van Kleeck · Jan 14, 2008

I know... that was a good brow beating.

It just gets so testing to have some friends say "oh, this was a good book." and you get it home and its a robert jordan knock off with some Final fantasy fill ins and a little Dune topped off with some chrono trigger... it makes me... do the poetry thing.. and I hate poetry... and i'm aweful at it.

ChaosTitan · Jan 14, 2008

Z. W. Van Kleeck said:
It just gets so testing to have some friends say "oh, this was a good book." and you get it home and its a robert jordan knock off with some Final fantasy fill ins and a little Dune topped off with some chrono trigger... it makes me... do the poetry thing.. and I hate poetry... and i'm aweful at it.

This is a great example of how tastes, even among fantasy fans, can widely differ. I may recommend my sister a book that I found a terrific, fun read, and she may come back in a week and say, "You actually liked that?"

Different strokes.

If the books you normally read are becomming tedious and identical, try reading something outside of your regular comfort zone. Urban fantasy, for example. Or steampunk. Alternate history. The SF&F section of my local Borders is full of hundreds of books that are nothing like what you've described.

Z. W. Van Kleeck · Jan 14, 2008

acctually i started taking that advice about a month ago. I started digging into steampunk. I really like it. It's a good feel. right now i'm reading about authors and the history of steam punk, trying to get that down before i dive into the genre, i wanna read the first really attempt at steampunk before i read the others.

Sassee · Jan 15, 2008

I have to appologize... I'm one of those readers that looks for the same thing with a new flare. I try to be "different" in my writing, but honestly, there isn't a storyline that hasn't already been done, so the only thing I really worry about is being too similar to another author.

geardrops · Jan 15, 2008

Sassee said:
I have to appologize... I'm one of those readers that looks for the same thing with a new flare. I try to be "different" in my writing, but honestly, there isn't a storyline that hasn't already been done, so the only thing I really worry about is being too similar to another author.

QFT

And if you think Rowling invented "Magic School" and Lucas invented "Force-Like Abilities" from scratch, you need to read more.

mscelina · Jan 15, 2008

It's usually at this point that I degenerate into my normal discussion of Campbell and the Hero's Journey, but I shall desist.

and *shrug* let's be serious. who established these genre cliches? only unimportant people like Homer and Malory and Shakespeare.

geardrops · Jan 15, 2008

mscelina said:
It's usually at this point that I degenerate into my normal discussion of Campbell and the Hero's Journey, but I shall desist.

Sounds like someone else has read The Hero With A Thousand Faces.

Gray Rose · Jan 15, 2008

As others had said, genre tropes are there for a reason. Stories repeat. Stories repeat because there is a certain uniformity to human experience and human social institutions.

For example, schools of magic are popular because we all went through some kind of schooling.I for one will never tire of reading school/mentoring stories (thought I am not a fan of Harry Potter). Since I have been in education all my life, both as a student and as a teacher, school/mentorship settings occur naturally in my writing as well.

I have to disagree with Mscelina on one point: Homer, Mallory and Shakespeare had in no way established these tropes. There is no single author of the Illiad and the Odyssey in the first place; both Mallory and Shakespeare relied on earlier fiction, mythology and historical writing for their works. There is a large body of Arthuriana before Mallory.

There is nothing wrong with old themes, IMHO, as long as they are done well. Both new and old ideas require stellar execution to be published. In my experience, it is much easier to derail the writing of others than to produce something worthwhile (speaking only of myself).

Ruv Draba · Jan 15, 2008

Z. W. Van Kleeck said:
I'm finding myself growing more annoyed by overused cliches in these genres. Prophesies. the force-like powers. young boys rising to wizardry. These plots are so hashed out that reading is like having a McDonald's cheeseburger. Its alright, but you've already had one that tasted Just like it, even though it's not the same one.

I attribute this to authors putting too little thought into original themes (or too little thought into themes at all).

There's an approach to F/SF story-writing which is a bit like making a necklace of beads. You ignore themes entirely, and just grab beads of different colours and string them together on some semblance of plot. Then some of your readers will coo in delight "Look! A new necklace of coloured beads!" and others will mutter "Yes, it's a necklace, and I've seen all those beads before".

But there's another approach to F/SF in which you must think before you write. You don't necessarily have to invent new images or new setting, but you do need to have something new to say.

If you do this, you won't produce a necklace of beads at all. You'll produce a mosaic. The reader's attention won't be on individual beads, but on how the coloured beads come together into a new and interesting and thought-provoking story. In other words, they will focus on what you're saying, not just how you're telling it.

What's interesting is that if you use the think-first approach, you may also come up with new images and settings too -- because your message triggers ideas for new treatments.

waylander · Jan 15, 2008

Plus you have to remember that there is a regular supply 14/15/16 y.o. kids who are just getting in SF/F and they haven't seen these cliches before. To them it is fresh and new and true.

Red-Green · Jan 15, 2008

It is all about reader's tastes. Me, I don't get near books that feature prophecies or dragons, but some people really dig 'em. I figure it's good news for writers. Even if your particular variety of story isn't selling right now, just wait. There are readers out there whose tastes run that way.

My-Immortal · Jan 15, 2008

Some of it might stem from the advice: Write what you know.

As others have stated, I don't mind some of the cliches, IF, the author has a new way of telling (showing) the story. I enjoy reading new authors from time to time, but it's also reassuring sometimes to read familiar authors. It's like throwing on sweats and a t-shirt - they're comfy. Besides, don't all genres have their own lists of 'cliches' (and for a reason)?

And as others have stated - it might be that some publishers aren't open to experimenting outside of these set cliches. They're in the business of selling books and making money. Writers are in the business of creating something new AND selling it to these publishers. If no one is buying 'unique' and all that's left is 'cliche' -- what are you going to spend your time working on?

Take care all -

ProtoMatic · Jan 15, 2008

Z. W. Van Kleeck said:
I'm finding myself growing more annoyed by overused cliches in these genres. Prophesies. the force-like powers. young boys rising to wizardry. These plots are so hashed out that reading is like having a McDonald's cheeseburger. Its alright, but you've already had one that tasted Just like it, even though it's not the same one.

The most recent novel i've read that was moderately original was Patrick Rothfuss' The Name of The Wind (an excelent book by the way). Even then, however, Kvothe (the main character) goes to a school where he learns Sygaldry (a magic that focus on alchemy) and other magical skills for a short time. its no harry potter, but it's still a school of wizardry.

This is just a rant, i'm not looking for a book to read, or an author that os extremely original. I just wish author put more stock into coming up with something new, instead of trying to take something old and reissue it with modern flare.

Game.Set.Match

Zachary Van Kleeck

I agree, but it's the way of the Trends. Even sci.fi/fantasy aren't immune to it. Someone makes a truckload of money on some consept or other, and suddenly everyone seems to be doing the same consept. Like someone said before, it's what editors think they can make money off.

Sage · Jan 15, 2008

Z. W. Van Kleeck said:
its no harry potter, but it's still a school of wizardry.

Where else are young wizards supposed to learn magic?

Oddsocks · Jan 15, 2008

I have no issue with cliched elements such as the force-like power or the magical school. They can be interesting and fun to work with, especially if something interesting is done with them. They can be bad, too, but they don't have to be.

I'm more worried about the cliched plot. And by that I mean one that doesn't have anything significantly interesting done with it - the farm boy who's the heir who saves the world from the dark lord, and there's nothing new brought in or changed. But an interesting, unpredictable plot set in a magic school in a world with a force-like power? No issues there at all. Even better if these cliched elements tie into the plot well, rather than being just a backdrop to a story that could be isolated and shifted out to some other setting.

Z. W. Van Kleeck · Jan 17, 2008

I've been thinking about this discussion, and reading it's progression. I started a short story, and finished it within thirty minutes (1364 words) it's terribly written, of course, but all the ideas are there. It held an uninhibited slur of cliche's and overusage of magic to do menial things. In the end... it was one of the funniest things i've ever read. I'm no thinking about writing a comedy, something that someone might try to relate to "scary movie" but in the book, fantasy forum. Really, it makes me laugh.

The part that makes me laugh is at the begining when the character who is focused on wakes up and has no hand, there's a knock on the door and he says " who is it" and the voice says "your father".

the way it's written isn't funny, its the way that it could be written that makes me laugh.

Z. W. Van Kleeck · Jan 17, 2008

Sage said:
Where else are young wizards supposed to learn magic?

it's a box you put yourself in if you say magic has to be learned at all. It could be an inherited skill. It could be something as simple as being willing to see that dark is the absense of light. magic is something easily correlated to the mind and also reagents (wands, staves, potions etc...) Magic skills could be received as many ways as you are willing to explain. A school just seems easiest to me.

Gray Rose · Jan 17, 2008

Z. W. Van Kleeck said:
it's a box you put yourself in if you say magic has to be learned at all. It could be an inherited skill. It could be something as simple as being willing to see that dark is the absense of light. magic is something easily correlated to the mind and also reagents (wands, staves, potions etc...) Magic skills could be received as many ways as you are willing to explain. A school just seems easiest to me.

There is no such thing as inherited "skill" IMHO. Skill is something you acquire.

Music abilities and drawing abilities are inherited, but boy do you have to study to get anywhere. Study and practice. And no, you cannot really do it all on your own. Even a humble shepherd piping away on a handmade pipe had heard other shepherds make music.

Humans pass knowledge and skills to younger generations. It is one of humanity's most interesting and rather exclusive traits among other species on this planet. In fiction, mentor figures and "schools of" honor that.

Z. W. Van Kleeck · Jan 17, 2008

BUT IT'S MAGIC! its already going to defy just about everything you know about how things work. Why stick to standard on attaining it if IT isnt going to adhere to a standard expression. ie magic can do anything the writer wants it to- the writer has to limit magic to something that doesnt make the character invincible.

mscelina · Jan 17, 2008

no...it's FICTION. Magic works the way the writer wants it to work, period. There's no need to justify it or argue over which way is 'right.'

FennelGiraffe · Jan 17, 2008

Gray rose said:
There is no such thing as inherited "skill" IMHO. Skill is something you acquire.

Z. W. Van Kleeck said:
BUT IT'S MAGIC! its already going to defy just about everything you know about how things work. Why stick to standard on attaining it if IT isnt going to adhere to a standard expression. ie magic can do anything the writer wants it to- the writer has to limit magic to something that doesnt make the character invincible.

Sure you can write a story in which the ability to use magic is inherited--but you can't call that kind of magic a skill, because that isn't what the word "skill" means. Words matter. Skill, talent, gift, knack, craft, lore, art, power, mastery--all of these and more can be used for magical ability, but each one says something different about how magic works and what is required to use it.

sci-fi and fantasy Cliches (a rant)

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble

Writing Anarchist

Around

Momma Wolf

Good thing I like my day job

Teh doommobile, drivin' rite by you

Good thing I like my day job

Beware of the Thorns!

Who's going for a beer?

KoalaKoalaKoala!

Mr. Invisible

Our Lady of Parentheticals

Beware of the Thorns!

Teh doommobile, drivin' rite by you

It's green they say