Carpet Call: Get Critting!

Agree with everything you said. I make it a point to crit three or four poems for every one that I post. The only problem is that, since I only post one poem every two or three months, it appears that I am not very active. I'll try harder to gt in here and crit some even when I am not posting...but minutes are scare these days Dawg.

I've said this before about critiquing, especially that of poetry - most often, no response is a response.

A poem, usually limited by its relatively short length, must inspire a reaction. Sometimes that's all it does. If a poet notices a fair number of reads and few or no comments, then it can be assumed that this particular piece didn't resonate with this particular audience.

Because poetry very often employs abstract thought or concepts, it runs a higher-than-prose average of ambiguity at best, or incomprehensibility at worst. I don't see a reluctance of the participants here to give specific criticisms or suggestions, but I could understand a hesitancy to go from poem to poem saying, "I don't get it."

I don't think it's fair to cite the poets here as lazy, ungenerous or free-loaders. I think, perhaps, it's the nature of poetry and poetry readers.

LimeyDawg said:

Sort of like, no vote is a vote against? I've got to disagree. While there are poems that don't really inspire a response, I can't imagine reading a handful of the work here and NOT be driven to say something, anything, about a poem.

Click to expand...

Then what is your guess at the reason for the dearth of critiques?

I, too, hope that's not the case. If it is, perhaps your appeal will bridge that.

ETA - Although, if the cause is more weighted to my guess, I'd put out there that there is as much to be learned from the poems that do get lots of attention (negative or positive) than there is to despair at the ones that do not.

There's information and insight to be gleaned from the poetry forum as it is.

LimeyDawg said:

My guess is that there is a discomfort level. Many feel as if they don't have the necessary understanding of poetry to offer a decent crit. This is a mistake. Everyone has something valuable to add.

Click to expand...

No. We just don't have time to go type "doesn't work for me...not sure why" for every poem on the front page. I'm all about the 3, 4, or 5 to 1 ratio for crits. I agree that if you are going to post poetry, you better crit some too. No problem there. But this constant bitching about who does or doesn't crit is getting annoying. It works itself out. People who crit usually get critted. People who just post eventually go away, because people get wise to them.

Next.

totally agree (I didn't know if it was only me who had noticed the inactivity)--I have a poem I'd love to post, but I don't have time to offer any crits until next week (due to midterms). the policy: until I can crit again, I also can't post again.

to people who don't think they know enough about poetry to offer a crit, look at me! I have no idea but critting is so useful because if you can point out something that should be changed in another work, you can prevent yourself from making that same mistake in your own writing. in respect for the time spent creating the poem, a reader can certainly spare a simple yes or no, and why.

I'm happy giving crits to people regardless of whether they read or crit my work, but I have to admit it's a buzz to get comments from people whose work I've commented on. It feels far more like a conversation, and it encourages me to keep writing. Everyone who has posted on this thread is a poet whose work and insights I thoroughly enjoy. One of the joys of AW is finding a poem from a favourite writer after busy-ness in the real world has kept them away.

On the critter call, I have to admit, I'm guilty at the moment of not critting. So far 2008 hasn't given me the headspace to offer anything useful, but I will

This subject has come up numerous times. It's very difficult to convince people to critique if they are disinclined to do so.

Still, the poetry forum is quite vibrant and useful for those who wish to read poetry, and the core who really enjoy workshopping.

LimeyDawg said:

What constant bitching? You mean, those of us (yes, me) who crit easily as often as we post poems? There is no constant bitching. None. None. Just this thread. I honestly can't believe it's too much to ask. "Hey, I don't get this poem." I timed it. 3 seconds. Maybe a minute and 3 seconds if you add in the time to read the poem. Don't have the time? You certainly have time to write and post AND expect a crit. Pah.

Click to expand...

No offense my friend...but I stand by what I said. Some of us comment on three or four poems for every poem we post, but we don't post often enough for that to amount to a lot. As much as I love this forum, I simply do NOT have the time to comment on a daily basis. When I have a poem to post...or, as is more often the case, when I have set aside some time to read the forum and am inspired to drag out some of my drek and post...I comment. Between-times, I glance over every once in awhile.

How much time does "expecting a crit" involve, LD? I'm sorry to sound contrary...I fully agree with your point about people who post without critting. But you seem to go beyond that. That is the problem I am having with your comments.

Peace brother. I'm not fighting you on it. Just trying to make my point.

I admittedly haven't in some time. However, it was my scheduled activity to sit here and crit poems for 30 minutes. Whatever I could get through in 30 minutes was what I'd crit. I'll make it a point to do that again.

I'd agree with Perks on one point: sometimes, when you read a piece, it just does, well nothing. As someone reading, I'd get finished and go, "I just got nothing to say about that." Or something elsr that isn't productive.

So, that leads me to this question: I wonder if there's a way to fix and 'up' and 'down' button on to critique forums. Maybe use the poll feature? That way, even if someone's giving a drive by, they could give it the anonymous Caesarian section.

Finally, this section and others here go through spells of this. Ebbs and flows. Ebbs and flows.

I'm glad Limey made this point. I don't see anything wrong with trying to encourage more critiques. Some people will, some people won't. Some people complain about the dearth of crits, and others complain about being asked to crit more. Whaddaya gonna do?

Quite honestly, when people post poems but don't give feedback, I lose interest in providing feedback to them. That's the way it goes. It's not an ideological stance, but it's human nature, as expressed in me. I'm naturally inclined to make more of an effort for:

a) poems that I feel are worthy of comment
b) poets who participate a lot
c) newcomers, to encourage them to stay and participate
d) others where I think a response might do a lot of good

As for the others: I'm surprised that anyone would take umbrage at Limey's comments. If the shoe fits, wear it. If it doesn't, no harm done.

What's more, very few people here claim expertise in critting. I have NONE. Just have a shot -- that's all anyone asks. This is a safe place to do so. And I quite agree with Limey: critting others' work is a great help to gaining insight on our own writing.

It's understood that people's interest and free-time levels ebb and flow. Nonetheless, there's nothing wrong with the occasional call for more crits.

Without crits, this forum's pretty sterile, and I'm thrilled that our Poet Laureate has taken the initiative to keep things lively here.

While I think that critiquing and discussion are great, especially when spontaneously inspired, the vibrancy and value of the poetry forum is in the fact that there are new poems added every day and that the hit counts go up as they are read.

People are writing and reading poetry.

Tell you what, though: if people don't crit, people won't post. Without feedback, why bother? If I never got crits, I sure wouldn't post much of my work.

You're right -- some people won't crit no matter what. Then again, they won't even be reading this thread. Of course, they're still welcome. And nobody's making crits compulsory.

But critting is valuable, valued, and essential to this forum's viability.

Jason's idea of a radio button poll could be the answer for people who rely on feedback to revise their work.

If you want to launch your poem without it, that's okay, but poets could certainly devise their own poll to encourage specific comments. I really don't see where "I didn't get it" would be helpful at all for members to type out to other members, but as one of a multiple choice spread, maybe it would work.

poetinahat said:

Tell you what, though: if people don't crit, people won't post. Without feedback, why bother?

You're right -- some people won't crit no matter what. Then again, they won't even be reading this thread. Of course, they're still welcome. And nobody's making crits compulsory.

But where's the harm in reminding people that critting is important and valuable?

Click to expand...

There's no real harm in it. It's just been done several times and people critique as much as they've ever been inclined to critique. It doesn't change anything and ignites the curiosity (at least in me) at who it is directed towards.

Who are the people who are posting poems regularly and not offering comments on other member's poems? (Of course, that's not asking for an answer out here. I'll go sniffing around myself if I want to know.)

Perks has got it. Nobody is saying we should discourage crits Rob. But if we want to really make it fair then we need to install some system that requires people to crit X for Y number of poems submitted.

Frankly I think the thing works as is. People who never crit eventually go away, because people eventually catch on. People who want crits, crit in return. I'm just trying to figure out why this keeps coming up.

I think it works as is too, Scott. If we require X crits per poem, then people might not post poems at all.

I think it's just a matter of reminding people that crits are both important and helpful.

This issue keeps coming up because, now and then, people post a slew of poems without ever commenting on anyone else's.

I tried posting a sticky about this, to remind people to crit, but apparently people find that having stickies is too much like rules.

The only problem here is that the people who debate the issue are pretty much the ones who most of the critting anyway, and they don't need to be reminded.

In the past I was a more active critter and poet. I apologize for my extended absence on both fronts. I try to not say anything, if I can't find something constructive. If something strikes me as really well done, I'll rep it. My brain seems to have gone on holiday, as of late, I keep phoning, but no one answers.

In short, my apologies, I'm trying to kick it into gear.

I agree fully on the give-to-take philosophy, and I'm feeling really guilty about it right now. My schedule is so tight I'm not able to give crits a fair shake. I've still been posting pieces, and I understand fully if they don't get many crits (i.e. they are passed on by those who refuse to do so unless reciprocated), but I also have a long history of providing crits here, and I'm hoping I can get through this busy time with my overall contribution record still acknowledged. So, in my case (and probably in the lives of others here), there are times when I have time to give crits, and times when I don't. In the latter times, I am very selective in what I crit mostly because I can't give time to a complex piece that deserves a thorough interpretation. This does not mean that there is no interest in the piece--I can still read it and appreciate it, even if it falls off the first page without a comment.

A regular reminder to our members to increase their critiquing time is probably a good thing. As for this seeming to come up too often, perhaps I'm guilty of that due to comments such as in this thread. I plead guilty to "bitching" about lack of critiques.

I don't critique more for three reasons: 1) I'm concentrating on some prose prospects right now, and haven't written a poem in three months, only eight total in 2007; 2) life is very busy right now, swallowing up almost all creative endeavors; and 3) I generally feel like a fish out of water in these parts. I read a poem and think it's terrible. Then I read the five or six crits it has received where everyone think it's wonderful. Or I cannot fathom what the poem is about, but everyone else seems to get it and love it. One can only do that so long until one feels so out of place that continued bucking the dominant opinion seems an exercise in futility.

I first started critiquing poems because I had to, not because I wanted to. At Sonnet Central, they had a 2:1 critiques to poems rule, so if I wanted to participate there, I had to critique. The scariest thing about beginning critiquing is getting something wrong, embarassingly wrong. So I had to study hard and fast. I picked up some used poetry textbooks and read them and learned what was involved with sonnets. I read tons and tons of critiques in a month, watched what the better critiquers seemed to be doing, and began doing that myself. I eventually came to the point where I enjoyed critiquing, almost better than writing poems, and in fact fear I'm a better critter than poet.

Critique on,
NDG