Do we need a new word?

Anyone who believes that Catholics aren't Christians doesn't know his/her Christian Church history.
C

If you believe in Jesus Christ then you're a Christian. Seems simple enough to me.

And I can't think of anyone who doesn't believe a Catholic is a Christian.

Mormons on the other hand are often still regarded as a cult because they believe that the Book of Mormon as translated by Joseph Smith is a scriptural book equivalent to the other books of the New Testament. So they have that additional belief that brings their true Christianity into question.

Judging

You know, I quit trying to figure out who is a Christian and who isn't. Probably because it isn't my job to judge that. The thief on the cross cried out to Jesus in the last moments of his life and Jesus accepted him. Most people looking on would never have thought that a dying thief could step into Paradise.

I've heard a couple of Mormons say some things that make me believe they are saved. (Don't throw stones at me!) Yes, I believe their religion has "added some things" to the Gospel that aren't from the heart of God, but I also think it is possible that there are people in the Mormon religion who have truly accepted Christ. It is up to the Holy Spirit to teach them that what Joesph Smith attempted to add doesn't agree with scripture. And that has certainly happened.

Jesus made it very clear that we are not the judges of other people's hearts. Only God can see inside a man. I was once part of a church that believed if I'd been baptized there - I was saved. But I wasn't. It took an encounter with the Holy Spirit for me to find true salvation. When I wanted to be baptized again - this time for the right reasons - I was told that it wasn't necessary. I'd already been baptized in their church. I left not long after that.

It was a big relief when I realized that I am not anyone else's judge. Now I'm just free to love them. It's a much nicer place to be.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of Christians, even leaders, who haven't figured this out. We are too quick to attack our brothers and sisters. One area where I see this too much is in regard to ministers on TV. Television is a wonderful way to reach many people, and there are quite a few very annointed ministers on the tube. Yet, there are lots of Christians who want to vilify all TV preachers as "leeches." And a lot of the time, they're absolutely wrong.

Someday, we will have to give an account of ourselves to the Lord. I'm afraid many of us will have to explain our rash judgments against some of God's servants. I don't want to be one of them.

I had a dream once. It was very, very vivid. I died and arrived at the gates of heaven. A huge angel called me over to him. In his hands he had a list. He said to me "Before you go inside, I just want to doublecheck this list with you." I asked him what it was. He told me it was a list of the people I had not forgiven. I felt that my judgments would not be charged against me, but they would be held against those whom I had judged. (These were people who truly had sinned against me.) I woke up right after that, and I made a commitment to God and to myself that there would be NO names on that list when I really did stand before the gates of heaven.

And I intend to keep that promise.

Nancy

citymouse said:

Anyone who believes that Catholics aren't Christians doesn't know his/her Christian Church history.
C

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*leans against the bulkhead*
I know it fairly well, and some of them are. and some of them are not.
Sorta like Baptists or Methodists or most any other denomination.

As to the Mormon comment, there are many issues that call most of them
into question as the doctrines they teach are not those of christianity.
Still, some of them are also saved, it's just a question of how many.
and that is not something I can answer.

I do not believe that we need a new word anywhere near as much as we need
for Christians to actually follow Jesus' path, rather than merely going to church.
When the Christians start walking the walk, it is understood who they are.

Just my two cents.


Mark

The Catholic Church, the church, militant, the Mystical Body of Christ or whatever one calls it, was and is Christian. Whether individuals embrace or act upon the teachings of Jesus as expressed within Catholic doctrine is another thing altogether. Many people give lip service to their different churches. I leave the searching of their hearts to God.
C

NancyMehl said:

Jesus made it very clear that we are not the judges of other people's hearts.
Nancy

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The Bible says that the heart is deceitfully wicked, who can know it?

It's not what's in a person's heart that shows a person's Christianity. The Bible says that you will know them by their fruits. That is, by their words and actions and what they produce. These we can judge to be right or wrong, in accordance with scripture.

ETA: Proverbs 14:12 - There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.

NancyMehl said:

Jesus made it very clear that we are not the judges of other people's hearts.
Nancy

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The Bible says that the heart is deceitfully wicked, who can know it?

It's not what's in a person's heart that shows a person's Christianity. The Bible says that you will know them by their fruits. That is, by their words and actions and what they produce. These we can judge to be right or wrong, in accordance with scripture.

dadburnett said:

It seems that being Christian today is far different that being Christian is say 50 C.E. Should we be coining a new word???

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You're right. It does mean something different today. But coining a new word wouldn't help and it's not necessary. God is still in control. The very breath that comes from our nostrils comes from Him and we are not guaranteed a next one. If we can't even breathe without Him, He doesn't need us to coin a new word to distinguish His people. He knows who they are.

I know what you mean, though. Sometimes it just feels like we should do something. But, I think God is more interested in us just being His people, since He doesn't need us to do anything. If every true Christian suddenly vanished from the earth, His plan would still be accomplished without us!

Do 'we' need a new word?

No.

What are we going to do with some spanking new definition of 'Christian' ... judge some people in and some other people out?

If you want to "coin" a new word for Christian, then Jesus already answered another trick question about coins: Render Unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and render unto God what is God's.

God knows our hearts and souls. No other worldly label or definition counts for anything then.

I see NO value in any new "coin" that tries to define which Believer in Christ really is or isn't "Christian"

Jesus speaks to that point too:

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
24 Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock.

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It's an entirely different debate, but I'd go so far as to say in this verse:

24 “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock.

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Jesus is even suggesting that "hearing" is secondary to "doing" ...

I know some good Christians who put too much emphasis on printing and distributing words Jesus preached ... at the expense of doing as Jesus preached.

As Christians, we should feed the hungry and aid the needy FIRST ... and let our actions preach Christ's message. It's not an "either-or" issue ... but it's definitely a "do both" issue.

Every Gospel colouring book printed to convert, might feed another extra hungry child instead.

But to return to the question of this thread: No, we don't need another word, our worldly words are meaningless and can only be used to EXCLUDE.

Christ knows us without a word need be spoken.

There was a valid debate between Faith versus Actions in the early Church.

A debate between mere words versus actions ... Jesus settled that one forever, perhaps.

citymouse said:

The Catholic Church, the church, militant, the Mystical Body of Christ or whatever one calls it, was and is Christian. Whether individuals embrace or act upon the teachings of Jesus as expressed within Catholic doctrine is another thing altogether. Many people give lip service to their different churches. I leave the searching of their hearts to God.
C

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The interesting thing is that you have just contradicted yourself.
plainly put, the 'mystical body of Christ' does indeed include a portion of the Catholic church,
just like it includes a portion of the Pentecostal church.
Only those that have actually accepted Jesus as their Saviour are in it.

*returning to your regularly scheduled thread*

Small axe, you are very correct. Matthew 7 is a key scripture for letting us know how we can have the assurance of knowing that we're a Christian. Vs 24 - knowing and doing the will of the Father.

This is what's meant by vs 16 when it says that you shall know them by their fruits, not their hearts.

We should look at our lives, the way we talk and walk and at the passions of our heart. Is Jesus in it or is He just an accessory that we add to our lives? Is He just something we "do" once in awhile, or once a week? Is He something we just give a mental nod to? Or is He the very center of our lives?

Do we look, act and talk like the world? If so, this is what's in our hearts. Do we experience the same joys and pleasures those in the world do? Can we love sin and rebellion and relish in it? Then we don't know God.

A good tree can't bear bad fruit and a bad tree can't bear good fruit. Thorn trees can't grow oranges and orange trees don't bear thorns. If someone said otherwise, we'd think they're either crazy or a liar. So, those who call themselves disciples of Jesus and bear bad fruit, isn't that the same? They're either lying or crazy.

Paul Washer, an itinerate pastor, gives the example this way: Say he's late for an opportunity to preach somewhere and finally shows up 30 minutes late and they ask him where he's been. He says that he got a flat tire on the way and while he was changing that tire, a lug nut rolled into the middle of the road. When he picked it up, a logging truck was five feet in front of him and hit him and that's why he's late! The church folk would call him a liar, or crazy, because you can't have an encounter with something as big as a logging truck and not be changed! So, what's larger, a logging truck or God?

How can so many people claim to have had an encounter with God and yet they aren't permanently changed by it?

NOTE: I'm still in the spirit of respectful, discussion here. I'm not arguing with or debating anyone. It seems when some people see differing opinions on this board that they don't like, they assume it's an attack or argumentative. It's not my goal or desire to do either of these things.

P.S.

The question by the scripture quoted below, that Small Axe used, is this: It's not a matter of do we know God, but does He know us?


Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
24 Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock.

I see no contradiction. As to what the phrase means, is defined by Pope Pius XII as the intimate union with Our Redeemer. It was this definition that I had in mind. As can be seen, any person so united is part of the Mystical Body of Christ.

flutecrafter said:

The interesting thing is that you have just contradicted yourself.
plainly put, the 'mystical body of Christ' does indeed include a portion of the Catholic church,
just like it includes a portion of the Pentecostal church.
Only those that have actually accepted Jesus as their Saviour are in it.

*returning to your regularly scheduled thread*

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Plot Device said:

:ateintly waits for thread to get closed::

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Why? I don't see anyone being disrespectful.

I agree, that we can tell things about the fruit shown in someone's life. But too many are judging people they have no direct relationship with. Sometimes, we have to make judgments about people IN OUR OWN LIVES because of their involvement with us or with our family.

But I'm not called to judge people I don't know. And I'm certainly not called to judge anyone based on someone else's judgment of them.

Nancy

NancyMehl said:

I agree, that we can tell things about the fruit shown in someone's life. But too many are judging people they have no direct relationship with. Sometimes, we have to make judgments about people IN OUR OWN LIVES because of their involvement with us or with our family.

But I'm not called to judge people I don't know. And I'm certainly not called to judge anyone based on someone else's judgment of them.

Nancy

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I see where you're coming from, and I especially agree with your last sentence. That happens a lot in the workplace, I noticed. People can develop an opinion on someone they don't know based on what another coworker tells them. This is really unfortunate because we live in a society where people don't forget things like that. Information sticks like glue.

I'm sure this whole topic is a bit deeper than any of us have acknowledged, or done justice to. Judging does play a role in a Christian's life. It's part of discernment. But I think what has failed to be clarified in this thread is what kind of judging are we talking about? I, for one, apologize for jumping the gun with my responses before I checked to see if how I understood the topic to be the same as others understood it. That makes all the difference.

In the kind way you've stated it, Nancy, I believe that. The person is not to be judged. I agree with that. I've been looking at it from the angle of discerning what a person professes to believe against the actual fruit that they're producing in their lives. Those are legitimate judgements because the fruit doesn't lie.

I totally understand where you're coming from, Keith. (Smile)

My point was simply that we need to be applying the "fruit test" to ourselves - not others, unless they have a direct impact in our lives. We're on the same track.

Thanks for clarifying, Bro.

Nancy

Why do you think a different word (even if widely adopted) would not have the same difficulties as the current word? Who gets to define the new word and decide what does or doesn't fit under it?

Unless the writer has carefully laid out a clear and concise context for his or her use of the word

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This seems to be your solution right here.

I think "Christian" is a generic enough term for society. If you choose to be identified with Christ, then it makes sense you'd label yourself a Christian. I like how Paul approaches it when he writes to the Ephesians:

Ephesians 4:12-13 ... to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

Everyone is invited to be part of the body and we should encourage each other towards maturity and a depth of relationship with Christ as we are all transformed. I'm not really concerned so much with who's a "real Christian" right now. I'm more concerned with all of us being transformed as we go on this journey together. That floats my boat.

I don't think we need another word to identify who is a Christian and who is not. What we really need is a way for the unsaved world to identify Christians. Fortunately, Christ gave us a way.

"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." John 13:34-35

All we need to do is follow it.

Am I the only one who has a "Relgion Test" in the Google banner ad above this thread? It says "Find the perfect religion for you!" "Take the test now!" Just struck me as funny.

III said:

Am I the only one who has a "Relgion Test" in the Google banner ad above this thread? It says "Find the perfect religion for you!" "Take the test now!" Just struck me as funny.

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I clicked on it (after refreshing a couple times to get the banner), it had five questions, each with longish multiple-choice questions, then a 'continue' button, but I saw no clue of how many more pages there would be. Having done the "Are you emo" quiz from another banner ad I saw on AW, I decided against doing it. To get the emo results I had to opt out of huge amounts of marketing stuff, AND put in my a name, address and city.

But the (in)famous belief-o-matic doesn't make you do any of those things. I just went through it (for the first time in several years - I'm still the same as last time), and it took me 11 pages (ten pages of two questions each, one click-to-continue ad page) and you get your result right at the end, so there's no rigamarole of having to give them your email address or anything. It have the impression it's not meant to be taken with the utmost seroiusness, but it appears to be surprisingly accurate.

Are you a "REAL" Christian (or a "REAL" something else that you believe you are)? This website will tell you!
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/76/story_7665_1.html