YA or just read by YA

[wildcatter67]

Does anyone write books that are loved by the YA audience but are not referred to as YA novels?

For example "South Park" is a favorite of middle schoolers, but it was put on MTV, not Disney, and shown late at night, at least when it first came out. I'm not sure where and when it airs now.

My WIP has 7 teens as it's leading characters. I don't think it is appropriate to be sold as a YA novel. It is borderline SF, but not quite, so wouldn't fit into that category. I might check out the horror genre. Again, I don't think it will make it. I know very little about horror :-0

I have had a story that has been living in my head for years, but my life was such that I couldn't try to write it. With a pathetic lack of talent, I'm attempting it now. I think teens will love it, but I think it's too edgy to be a YA novel. I don't want to tone down the opening rape scene. It sets the stage for the rest of the book.

No matter, what I'm just going to write the story, as it lives in my head, and won't try to tweak it into a category. I'm merely curious if there are books that YAs love, but are not considered YA novels?

[Zoombie]

Well, they put South Park on MTV and then Comedy Central because it's incredibly profane and adult.

So...Middle Schoolers really shouldn't be watching it without their parent's permission.

[Dreamer3702]

If its adult, but you think YA's will like it, you still need to write it for adults. Yes, some teens read adults books. I know teens that do. However, they still belong in that section. If you want to write YA, then you need to read some of the edgier YA. Find out how far you can push the envelope.

[Dreamer3702]

Actually, go read the edgy YA thread. That's a good start... if you're going to keep it YA.

[Moon Daughter]

Well, I don't know if anyone "loves" my stories (besides the fact that I haven't shown many people my manuscripts), but I'm pretty sure they'd be solely considered YA.

[TrishD]

Two not YAs that I think have a lot of YA readers are Megan McCafferty's Jessica Darling series and Diana Peterfreund's Secret Society Girl series.

[wildcatter67]

I agree that children should not watch South Park without a parent's permission. My sons were not allowed to watch it as middle schoolers and were very angry with me about it.

Whatever I think about South Park, they are an example of a story that features children, but is not written for children. I guess the authors choose to tell their story and then let people decide what they want to do with it.

I've just decided to write my story and stop thinking about who will like it and what it is labeled. Maybe that is wrong. I'm not sure.

Oh, and thanks for the tip about the 2 series! :-)

[bevmacrina]

Hi, I'm new on AW, so hope no one minds me jumping in with advice & suggestions. I'm a YA author, published, so I do know a bit about the biz. (Oh, that's royalty published, btw.)

One on One by Tabitha King (may now be out of print) is about teens, but is emphatically not a YA. A lot of Stephen King's work uses kids, and is avidly read by both mid grade and young adults, but again, is emphatically not written for kids.

That's all I can think of now, but if I remember more, I'll add 'em to the list.

For wildcatter? Write the story, follow your heart. If you keep an eye on the market when you're writing, you won't do your best. You can always revise to suit a particular market or audience once the thing is written, but watching the market simply inhibits you.

[wildcatter67]

Thank you for the advice :-)

I am just writing right now. I'm on a creative roll. When you get goosebumps and cry at your own writing, and get afraid because you don't know where the story came from, you care nothing about genres or even what others think of your story. I keep getting in that place right now. It makes it kind of hard to answer the phone and answer the question, "What are you doing?".

I've been reading how to books on the different genres of speculative fiction and they are helping a lot. I'd say my story is definitely speculative fiction, but just cannot be further labeled. It's comforting to know that teens are frequent characters in speculative fiction books.

My first short story writing class was canceled because of weather. The first chapter of my novel is a perfect complete short story. I'm so excited this is falling into place so nicely. I have a few more days to write this and will be able to get some advice and feedback and clean it up if need be. If class had started, I know it would have distracted me from writing what I did.

Back to my story! :-)

[Lisa McMann]

Hey there, Wildcatter. Jumping in a bit late on this thread - sorry!

But I'm so curious how your book could have teens as main characters, yet the book wouldn't be appropriate for teen readers.

Anything goes in YA.

[bevmacrina]

It's not an easy question to answer - but I'll take a stab at it. My books, btw, are YA and intended for teens. They're not written for adults with teen protaganists.

In One on One by Tabby King, for instance, the length, detail and subject matter are too on stage for a YA. Not to say that YAs can't have sex, drugs, abuse and other edgy material on stage, they can, but the detail in which they're described, the amount of space they take up in the book are greater than those I've seen in YAs. In addition, the tone of the book, the voice, the themes are more suited for an adult audience than a teen.

In addition, while most of the book is from the kids point of view, there are scenes that are seen from an adult character's perspective, which I've never seen in a YA - it just doesn't tend to happen.

Stephen King also has written books with kid protagonists, but again, the subject matter, the maturity of its voice and the themes are ones that are more normally associated with adults than with children, and while his kids are believable, he does, in the narrative, use adult maturity and wisdom to build the story and the tension.

I guess, to get more detailed, the writing doesn't show the mentality of a teen - while the main points of view are the teens, the narrative shows a more mature understanding of life and the consequences of actions than is usual in a teen novel, that adults would and could identify with more easily than a teen. (Again, which is not to say teens don't or can't identify with them, but most YA books don't write in that detail and depth.)

It sounds like I'm dissing, by indirection, YAs, and I'm not really. It's a very hard call to make, and you have to read 'em to really grasp the difference.

Sometimes, when you're writing, your characters have to be younger than their intended audience, because the themes involved are ones that can only be expressed through children and teens - it's what happens to them as children, as teens, that the writer is exploring - but the theme is intended for adults. It's also that in some cases, the story is suited for teen protaganists - as in One on One, it's unlikely the story would work if the characters were adults - the abuse Deanie suffers and the way in which Sam helps her to rescue herself can't be played out on an adult stage and still be the same story, partly because it's parental abuse, partly because it's the pressure cooker of high school that allows them to grapple with the issues they grapple with, at least in part.

I'm interested to see what others have to say on this.

[Lisa McMann]

I'm totally of a mind that teens should have access to ALL books. And that books about teens should not be kept away from teen readers -- seriously, doesn't that sound nuts? Teens not allowed to read about teens.

Teens know when to set a book down if it's too scary or too difficult for them.

Society's FEAR of "What Our Children Will Discover if they Read" has gotten way too far out of hand if authors feel they can't write about stuff happening to teens and write it for a teen audience.

[bevmacrina]

Oh! I didn't mean to imply that these books shouldn't be read by teens, and I don't think any of this thread has said or implied that. It's the marketing and the writing, is all. One on One was marketed to adults and written for an adult audience.

I agree with you to a certain extent. What I'd prefer to see is teens reading what they want, but parents talking over the problematic and "over the line" stuff - whether it's sex, or religion or philosophy or violence or whatever, so that they get a rounded picture and don't simply accept stuff in books as the way it 'really' is, which I've seen some kids do. (Hell, I've seen adults do it!) My kids and I have had some great discussions about films and books simply because of that - that we wouldn't have had if I'd simply told them "not good for you." And I've learned as much from those discussions as they have, as well.

Kids are gonna read what they're gonna read - and you're right, if they get scared or it's too much for them to absorb, they'll put it down.

But my point wasn't that kids SHOULDN'T read this. The books are written with an audience in mind, and they are marketed to an audience - and some of the books, for various reasons, end up having teens as protagonists, but the themes, and voices of the book are more suitable and more accessible for an older audience, is all.

Now when it comes to younger kids - then I have a problem with allowing them to read whatever they want - that's when parental censorship comes into play. But note - a parent can censor what their kids can read. They cannot and should not censor what MY or anyone else's kids are allowed to read and see - that's MY job, and the job of each child's parents.

But banning a book or thinking to yourself "I shouldn't write that" because it might cause controversy - no, absolutely not.

[beatlesluv]

Nathan Bransford (regular reponsding agent here) blogged about it in a blog titled, 'Dude Looks Like YA." (http://nathanbransford.blogspot.com/2007/07/summer-rerun-dude-looks-like-ya.html)

Basically he said the difference is presentation and pacing, and cited examples of (*bows down to her*) K.L Going's FAT KID RULES THE WORLD (YA), and ROSE OF NO MAN'S LAND.


If you ask me, you can see the difference in the title as well. I love Goings title. It has a puckisness and a funkiness to it while adult titles have a more err literary, and sort of 'omg what a brilliant title adult magnet grabbing' title.

In complete randomness, I must add my favorite K.L Going book is easily SAINT IGGY. Just..wow.

Anyways I hope that helps.

(Am Quickly becoming addicted to this place.)

- beatlesluv

[bevmacrina]

Yeah - that's a good point - pacing. There aren't as many subplots and they aren't in such depth in a YA - the story tends to go straight from point a to point z, with fewer side trips. And the subplots that do exist tend to tie into the main plot more directly than in and adult oriented book.

[wildcatter67]

This was all quite helpful. Thanks. I'm just writing the 1st draft and trying not to focus too much on marketing, but it looks like it's turning into an adult novel, in every way listed.

[beatlesluv]

This was all quite helpful. Thanks. I'm just writing the 1st draft and trying not to focus too much on marketing, but it looks like it's turning into an adult novel, in every way listed.

No problem. Same here. I'm just writing it now, and when it is finished and polished then take a long look at how you want to sell it to prospective agents and etc.

[beatlesluv]

Yeah - that's a good point - pacing. There aren't as many subplots and they aren't in such depth in a YA - the story tends to go straight from point a to point z, with fewer side trips. And the subplots that do exist tend to tie into the main plot more directly than in and adult oriented book.

Yea though I hope you're not giving me the credit! The only one I came out with is title differences!

Off Topic - Hey you live in Canada too! Mind you it's in the West end that you live in but still....

[bevmacrina]

Hey - you thought to mention it, and I didn't - take the credit where it's offered! <g> yes, I live in Canada - and happy to. I grew up in the East, if that counts! <g> Nothing wrong with the west - except we tend to attract all the loonies and strange folk. Of which others probably consider me one.

Write the story - don't worry about audiences or markets or length or anything until the story is down in rough form. Just get it down, on paper or in memory, and let it cool off a bit. Then you can figure out who it's for, and what it's about, and whether it's an adult or a kids story, and revise to that later.

You know the rule about first drafts, don't you?

[wildcatter67]

Not the official rule :-) I figure a first draft is an experiment. I keep switching POVs and tenses and everything else.

[bevmacrina]

The rule is that the first draft has to stink on ice. It can't be pretty, well written, flawless and ready to go. The second rule is "just write it" Like I said earlier - thinking about markets comes later (and besides, the editor may decide it's for a whole other group than the one you had in mind! That happened to me, twice!)

So, experiment is good - you play around find out what works and fix up what doesn't on rewrite and revision.

[OverTheHills&FarAway]

The rule is that the first draft has to stink on ice. It can't be pretty, well written, flawless and ready to go. The second rule is "just write it" Like I said earlier - thinking about markets comes later (and besides, the editor may decide it's for a whole other group than the one you had in mind! That happened to me, twice!)

So, experiment is good - you play around find out what works and fix up what doesn't on rewrite and revision.

Everyone writes differently--I don't write this way. I do, however, do a lot of thinking beforehand, so my first drafts are not too far removed from the finished product.

However, I agree with the spirit of these "rules" (and I think we can all agree that there are no "rules" when it comes to writing...only trends, habits, worthwhile practices and suggestions). Sometimes you just have to free your mind from the burden of perfection before you can get a word out.

But it doesn't have to stink on ice. :D That would depress me to no end. If it stinks, I'm gonna fix it. I don't care if it's only the second chapter, I have dignity. Even if I'm the only one who ever sees it in its stinky condition.

(This is just me and my method, though. Like it's been well established...there are no rules.)

[bevmacrina]

However, I agree with the spirit of these "rules" (and I think we can all agree that there are no "rules" when it comes to writing...only trends, habits, worthwhile practices and suggestions). Sometimes you just have to free your mind from the burden of perfection before you can get a word out.

But it doesn't have to stink on ice. :D That would depress me to no end. If it stinks, I'm gonna fix it. I don't care if it's only the second chapter, I have dignity. Even if I'm the only one who ever sees it in its stinky condition.

(This is just me and my method, though. Like it's been well established...there are no rules.)

I say 'stink on ice' because I've worked with too many writers who honestly believe that their first drafts DO stink on ice. Nothing I or anyone else can say can convince them otherwise, and the more we tried, the more convinced they were that they were bad writers and we were just making polite noises.

So when I made up this rule (yes, it's mine! ;)) I said that so people would feel okay about their perception, and that it didn't have to be good or perfect or right. Once they learn that, then they begin to realize and have confidence in their talent and abilities, and can admit that, y'know, it's probably not that bad after all! Rough around the edges maybe, a little soft in spots - but nothing that some fixing up wouldn't take care of.

So, I still say, stink on ice, so that people can give themselves permission to write freely, without worrying about how good or bad it is.

And I'm like you - I tend to polish and fix as I go along - my 'warm up' usually consists of going over the previous day's work and adjusting, tweaking and changing - then moving ahead as I get to the new material, so that my first draft is mostly there already.

(Course that didn't work with Feral - when my editor got it back to me the first time, I had two weeks to almost totally rewrite the book. Out of 130 ms. pages, I ended up with 24 old ones with original material, and 160 pages total. But boy did the story improve!)

[Hopcus]

"(Course that didn't work with Feral - when my editor got it back to me the first time, I had two weeks to almost totally rewrite the book. Out of 130 ms. pages, I ended up with 24 old ones with original material, and 160 pages total. But boy did the story improve!)"

Wow! That sounds like a very dedicated editor (and you are obviously a dedicated writer). When did the book come out?

[bevmacrina]

We were both dedicated! No, my editor at Orca is a gem, and I've been very grateful to have worked with her on this. The book is being released in April - I got the advance reading copy last week and I don't think my feet touched ground for the rest of the day. Whoa, it looks good! The book designer did a terrific job on it.

[Hopcus]

That is awesome! Congratulations and I will be sure to look out for it!

[Suprswimmer]

Newbie here. I think it's silly that teens can't write about teens. There are tons of books that "should" be for adults because of content that are in the YA section of the library. I guess you could say it depends on how graphic the rape actually is, ya know what I mean? Anyways, hope I've given some insight, PM me if you need too.

[Suprswimmer]

Sorry, I meant that teens can't READ about teens

[peevy]

It's interesting too that a lot of books that start out as "adult" books get marketed as "YA."


Take Ender's Game. I believe it was originally marketed for adults, but I've even seen it in with MG books with a very young and cheerful-looking Ender on the cover.
Prep is another book that started in one category and moved to the other (but I can't remember which direction).
I think The Secret Life of Bees has moved from adult to YA.
What I'm saying is, there's often a fine line between YA and adult, which is really the point of the genre--it's a transition between kids books and adult books.

However, I don't agree with the "anything goes" attitude for YA. If you're marketing a book toward a 14 year old, you've got to take responsibility for that. It's like movie ratings--people need to understand what they and their kids are in for. I know many 14 yr olds have experienced worse things than you would encounter in an R-rated movie, but not all 14 yr olds have. And like another poster said earlier, it's not fair to present promiscuous sex and condoned violence as "the norm." It's one thing to talk about tough issues like drugs, sex, violence, etc. in a manner that is helpful to young people. It's another thing to throw them into a story for young people without regard to the effect they will have on a young reader. My 2 cents.

In the end--write your story and then figure out what to label it when you're shopping it around. You may have to tweak some things to make it fit into one category or the other, but you can figure that out later.

[Gina_Marie]

You should see some of the books I have in my library. They are YA books and they are riddled with the f word, rape, child abuse you name it ..its in there. Now, I dont think this means that you should be given a free pass to have the character swear every other word.

Teens are a lot smarter than some people give them credit for. And I will be very honest with you when I say I have had girls come up to me and say..and I quote "I want a book on rape." They can handle that stuff. But that doesnt mean I want a 7th grader reading it.

Just to let you know the ALA gives out the Alex Award each year. These are adult books that appeal to teens.

In the end I think you need to write the book that you want to, just as others have said. Wait and see where it takes you.

Good Luck.

[peevy]

Teens are a lot smarter than some people give them credit for. And I will be very honest with you when I say I have had girls come up to me and say..and I quote "I want a book on rape." They can handle that stuff.

Some YA books handle these topics really well--Speak is a great YA book that addresses rape. Certainly teens are smart enough to understand the situation in this book. But this type of book is written with a sensitivity that adult books don't require.

Interesting to hear about the Alex Awards--thanks for mentioning it.

[AmandaAcidic]

I don't think you should be worried so much as to what genre your book fits in. I think you should write it and the genre can be firgured out at a later time. What gets put in the story is way more important than where it fits.

Plus I've read some fairly edgy teen books. The books Cut and Lucky are fairly graphic with the issues they discuss and they are still considered young adult and I know lots of people really enjoyed both of them.

[Mumut]

I was writing for YA but I didn't dumb down the language. Not swearing - I don't use that. But if a word is the right word for that place, I use it - even if it's bigger than marmalade! So some libraries have my book in YA, some in Adult Fiction and some in Fantasy. I've had good mail from readers from 9 to 73 years old. So my YA historical fantesy novel appeals to YA but is not restricted to that age group.