Advice from a writer. Do you agree?

[Mystic Blossom]

Today I had a chance to speak to a patient at the dental office I work at, who also happens to be a writer with his first novel coming out this summer. He had some advice for me, and I was just looking to get everyone's opinion on it.

I told him I've beensubmitting to a publishing house that normally requires an agent, but through a fluke received a contact, and his advice was actually to stop looking for an agent as long as I have the opportunity to submit to the publisher, and instead, get a contract lawyer. Would anyone else recommend holding off on agent searches in this situation, or can an agent still help, especially with such an iffy chance I'll actually be accepted.

He also suggested hiring a professional editor, but I don't have that much money right now, so I'd probably have to borrow from my parents, and the cost could run upwards of a thousand dollars. Is it worth it, or can I get the same quality of editing from a beta reader who's been found on the forum or tracked down from one of my writing classes?

Thanks for any discussions/advice!

[DeleyanLee]

If you want an agent, then keep looking for one. If an editor has requested a full from you, tell them that. If you've got an editor who said "send me the next thing you write", mention that too. Those are good things that agents want to know. But if you want an agent, you should keep going for one regardless of other advice. You have to make those decisions for yourself. It's your career.

Professional editors are still a luxury at this stage of the game, to my experience. Most of my multi-published friends don't use them, FWIW. Do the best you can with what you have available--that's all you can ever do.

Best of luck.

[chartreuse]

Well, my personal opinion (and I've not yet had a novel published, so take it with a huge grain of salt) is that it couldn't hurt to submit it directly to the publisher if you've got the opening. If they've okayed you doing that, I don't think they would look negatively upon you not having an agent.

I do think that in this scenario a contract lawyer is a good idea (obviously, one that is familiar with the publishing industry) but you would need to familiarize yourself with what kind of deals are standard for your particular kind of novel - the lawyer probably won't know that - and you want to make sure you're being treated fairly.

I've also heard of some folks snagging a publisher's interest and then using that to seal the deal with an agent. At that point, it's practically free money for the agent.

[dempsey]

... get a contract lawyer.

Literary agents, AFAIK, know bookish contract law. If you get a contract lawyer, make sure they know laws on books and not, say, construction. Or even film. Publishing is its own legal beast.

[Toothpaste]

And as ever, Agents do far more than just look over contracts.

[Mystic Blossom]

Literary agents, AFAIK, know bookish contract law. If you get a contract lawyer, make sure they know laws on books and not, say, construction. Or even film. Publishing is its own legal beast.

That's partially what I've been thinking. I know it's easier to get an agent once you have a publishing deal anyway.

[ClaudiaGray]

I'd go for the agent. A contract lawyer who actually knows his stuff would probably cost at least as much as an agent's commission, and with an agent, you get a relationship and advice that count for much more.

[maestrowork]

Until you have a publishing contract in hand, keep looking. And even if you have a contract, having an agent would help.

[ChunkyC]

He also suggested hiring a professional editor, but I don't have that much money right now, so I'd probably have to borrow from my parents, and the cost could run upwards of a thousand dollars. Is it worth it, or can I get the same quality of editing from a beta reader who's been found on the forum or tracked down from one of my writing classes?
Hard to say if you'd get the same quality of editing from other sources. It's entirely possible since there are good and bad 'pro' editors just as there are good and bad beta readers.

Mind you, a thousand bucks is an awful lot of money to pay when even if you get a deal, odds are it won't be for huge wads of cash. Personally, I'd rather work hard at learning to self edit and find a good agent who will help whip the book into shape. Between yourself and your agent, you might do just as much good for your book as a for-hire editor.

[gerrydodge]

Until you have a publishing contract in hand, keep looking. And even if you have a contract, having an agent would help.

If they are a reputable publishing house, they'll probably recommend you get an agent if they want to buy.

[JoNightshade]

I'd go for the agent. I'd think about it as more than just this one book, but all the books you will ever write. I mean, I want someone who will manage all that stuff, know the business, and be my advocate. You won't get that type of relationship or attention from a contract lawyer.

[Will Lavender]

If at all possible, get an agent.

[CheshireCat]

Never take advice from anyone whose first book is coming out soon. They're in the Danger Zone that generally runs from Book #1 to about Book #10.

You start out by thinking you know pretty much everything (because you did, after all, sell a book in a tough business), only to eventually realize you don't know shit.

Take advice from those of us who don't know shit. We may not be definitive, but we're also not likely to steer you in the wrong direction. :D

And get an agent.

A literary attorney will be able to tell you which publisher contract clauses "favor the publisher" or are outright egregious, but he or she won't offer to go to bat and fight to change those.

An agent will. And most agents are either experienced with publisher contract language, or else have the contract vetted by a literary attorney on their own dime. (It really doesn't cost much, by the way, to have a literary attorney go over a standard publishing contract. Usually a few hundred bucks.)

[Queen of Swords]

And as ever, Agents do far more than just look over contracts.

Exactly. I was thinking as I read the OP, "Would a contract lawyer have mentioned that the ending of my book would be better if the romance part was left open-ended? Would a contract lawyer have suggested that a minor character be a little more fleshed out in his first scene?"

[illiterwrite]

Agent.

I also wouldn't recommend getting a professional editor either. You'll have to do the dirty work yourself some day -- might as well learn how now.

[JeanneTGC]

Great opportunity to get an agent. You have a contract, select a small group of agents who are reputable, on your "wish list", and accepting new clients, contact them, explain the situation, ask if they would be interested in representing you.

[Mystic Blossom]

I think he thought the lawyer would be handy for the agent's contracts, but I feel like at that point, you're just adding to a long tab of things that aren't really necessary.

[Will Lavender]

I think he thought the lawyer would be handy for the agent's contracts, but I feel like at that point, you're just adding to a long tab of things that aren't really necessary.

If you sign with a reputable agency, chances are the contract is going to be pretty standard. You can probably run the details through a few folks at AW and they will tell you if everything checks out.

[Mystic Blossom]

Thanks guys. I feel much more confident about my decisions now =D

[Susan Gable]

If they are a reputable publishing house, they'll probably recommend you get an agent if they want to buy.

Really? That's quite a generalization. I know of a number of "reputable" publishing houses who buy from unagented authors.

An editor at Avon this summer repeated that a bad agent is far worse than no agent, and that they happily work with unagented authors.

Harlequin has loads of unagented authors from whom they regularly buy novels.

That said, if you are going to be your own agent, you'd better DO YOUR HOMEWORK. Know what's considered "normal," what things you're more likely to be able to negotiate, etc.

Elaine English out of DC is a well-known literary attorny. I've known a number of authors who've used her to go over contracts for them. She is also a "full service" agent as well.

Susan G.

[Bufty]

Use your contact, and if the Publisher likes the manuscript and tells you so, then you might well need an Agent. With an interested publisher, that shouldn't be too hard. What happens next? See what the Agent says.

My two -penneth. Good luck.

[Bartholomew]

If you've got an offer from a publishing house, you're going to be much more attractive to agents than 90% of the other queries.

[nevada]

Being a cynical b*tch, I wonder who his book is coming out with? Vanity? Real publisher? I'm always a little skeptical of anyone who recommends a professional editor. But that's just me.

[DeleyanLee]

Being a cynical b*tch, I wonder who his book is coming out with? Vanity? Real publisher? I'm always a little skeptical of anyone who recommends a professional editor. But that's just me.

I know of at least one very reputable SF/F publisher who does no copy edits on their books. It's totally the author's responsibility (and costs) to take care of that detail for their books. Good reason to be skeptical, but not a guarantee that it's not a reputable publisher.

[CheshireCat]

I know of at least one very reputable SF/F publisher who does no copy edits on their books. It's totally the author's responsibility (and costs) to take care of that detail for their books. Good reason to be skeptical, but not a guarantee that it's not a reputable publisher.

Want to name them? Because I'm more than a little dubious that any reputable publisher wouldn't take care of copy editing.

None of the ones I know of consider that the author's responsibility.

[Mystic Blossom]

It was Bantam Books, and I think he hired the editor before submitting it for publication, but I'm not sure.

[CheshireCat]

It was Bantam Books, and I think he hired the editor before submitting it for publication, but I'm not sure.


Wait. He hired an editor before submitting a book, and after the book was accepted for publication, his hired editor was allowed to copyedit the manuscript before Bantam published it?

Because I'd find that very, very odd. Bantam has plenty of editors, and while they do use freelance copyeditors, I've never heard of them requiring an author to pay for that.

[IceCreamEmpress]

Wait. He hired an editor before submitting a book, and after the book was accepted for publication, his hired editor was allowed to copyedit the manuscript before Bantam published it?


What I got from MysticBlossom's story was that the author recommended that she hire an editor to edit the work before submitting it.

[CheshireCat]

I know of at least one very reputable SF/F publisher who does no copy edits on their books. It's totally the author's responsibility (and costs) to take care of that detail for their books. Good reason to be skeptical, but not a guarantee that it's not a reputable publisher.


This is what I'm questioning.

Conversational confusion when mystic blossom's "It was Bantam" followed my question.

My bad -- I think.

I still want to know which "reputable publisher" requires the author to hire an outside copyeditor.

[elknutswife]

I hired a professional editor for my book, and while he caught a lot of mistakes and made some good suggestions, he wasn't familiar with my genre. Afterwards I found a crit group and we changed almost everything he did, and my book is much, much better now. I wouldn't go into debt to get an editor, a few good betas can probably help just as much. Not that professional editors are a bad choice, but I'd make sure whoever you went to was familiar with your genre first.

[EelKat]

Should you hire an agent, a private editor, and-or a contract lawyer? I feel that it is a matter of how well you feel you can do each of those jobs on your own.

What well the agent do for you, that you cannot do yourself? What does an agent do? They find you an editor. Some agents are also editors. They find you a publisher. They find you a lawyer. Some may also be a lawyer and do both jobs for you. An agent knows the genre; they know who will buy your manuscript and who will not give it a second glance. They have the added advantage of already knowing and working with the publishers. Ask yourself: How well do you know which editor will accept your work? How well do you know which publisher wants to publish your book? Can you market your MS on your own? Do you feel comfortable sending out query letters and such? How good are you at striking up a contract with a publisher? Can you find the right editor to edit your MS? If you can answer yes to those questions, than you may no have any need for an agent.

What well the editor do for you, that you cannot do yourself? What were your English Language, Grammar, Creative Writing, and Composition grades like in school? How well do you know the English language? What are your grammar, punctuation, and spelling skills? Are you able to cut large chunks out of your manuscript, for the sake of your readers? If you know the language well enough, than you may not need a private editor.

What well the lawyer do for you, that you cannot do yourself? If you found yourself faced with a publishing, copyright, or liability lawsuit, would you know what to do? Could you defend yourself in court? How well do you know the laws? Do you know the difference between copyrights, serial rights, movie rights, international rights, first print rights, reprint rights, work for hire, consignment pay, trademark laws, registration laws, liability notification requirements, disclaimer laws, IRS laws, local business permit laws (some towns require a writer to have a business permit), income tax laws, and publisher rights? Though most writers well need a contract lawyer, if you know the ins and outs of the law, than you may be one of the few writers who can go it on your own.

For every writer that hires outside help, there are just as many who do everything themselves. Each writer does what they feel is in their own best interests. No one can tell you to hire any of these people and no one can tell you that you do not need them. It is up to you to look at the advantages of hiring each, alongside the advantages of going it on your own.

There is no right or wrong here, only what you feel is in your own best interests. Do what you feel is best for you.

[scottVee]

I like EelKat's summary.

My initial reaction to this thread was ... advice is cheap. There are so many wacky corners of the publishing industry these days, any receptionist might whip out a book, and a song and dance. It's frustrating. The Web is chock full of articles about what you "must" do. There's so much baloney out there. It's scary how many books for writers are written by folks I've never heard of.

I will always go with tips from the authors I admire over someone out of left field. I'm no dope - I know who's who in the fields that interest me (sci-fi, horror, gaming, etc) ... you should know your own niches as well. It's up to you to decide whose opinions to trust.

[pdr]

American to use agents. And you have plenty, good and bad.

Even in the UK it's becoming more usual to use agents, although there are still publishers who work with authors directly and you don't have to have an agent. The UK writers' associations like the Society of Authors have good publishing legal beagles whose services are available to members.

And it is acceptable in the Commonwealth to use the services of a reputable manuscript assessor. They usually are retired editors or publishers. They will clean up basic punctuation errors and the like, whilst offering advice on the saleability of your manuscript. Many of them specialise and are darned good at knowing the market. And even the best of us miss things as we edit no matter how hard we try. In fact some publishers recommend that they are used before the manuscript appears in their offices!

There are different ways to do things and you don't have to have an agent. It's a nice idea that we can just write and let our agent handle all the business side. No, writers have to know all that stuff just to be sure their agents are doing the right thing.

[waylander]

Today I had a chance to speak to a patient at the dental office I work at, who also happens to be a writer with his first novel coming out this summer. He had some advice for me, and I was just looking to get everyone's opinion on it.

I told him I've beensubmitting to a publishing house that normally requires an agent, but through a fluke received a contact, and his advice was actually to stop looking for an agent as long as I have the opportunity to submit to the publisher, and instead, get a contract lawyer. Would anyone else recommend holding off on agent searches in this situation, or can an agent still help, especially with such an iffy chance I'll actually be accepted.

He also suggested hiring a professional editor, but I don't have that much money right now, so I'd probably have to borrow from my parents, and the cost could run upwards of a thousand dollars. Is it worth it, or can I get the same quality of editing from a beta reader who's been found on the forum or tracked down from one of my writing classes?

Thanks for any discussions/advice!

The publisher could take a long time (years really) to reply to your submission. If you stop looking for an agent during that time then you are standing still and wasting a lot of time if they turn you down.
If your manuscript is good enough to get a publisher seriously interested then you will also get serious interest from agents.
Do not stop querying agents.

[Old Hack]

I'd always go for an agent, not a lawyer. Any agent worth his or her commission will have a lawyer available when required, and you won't have to pay for this (at least, I didn't, when my agent handled a couple of plagiarism issues on my behalf). And despite all you've been told, agents know stuff that lawyers just don't. Get an agent. Trust them.

[Birol]

Yes. Please. A name.

[HeronW]

A good pub house will have an editor and will work with you so don't go hiring one. Also, if you have a pub house, why get an agent to take 10-15% of what you've already done--which is get a pub?

[popmuze]

A word to the wise, last time I had the chance to submit directly to an editor, the manuscript was still sitting in her pile of stuff six months later, by which time I'd gotten an agent.
Why don't you ask your published author friend to recommend you to his agent.

[mscelina]

I, also, would really like to hear about this reputable sff publisher and editing thing. Seriously. Particularly as I started hellish line edits today for book number three.

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i293/isabelle_spurrier/cat1.jpg

[Old Hack]

A good pub house will have an editor and will work with you so don't go hiring one. Also, if you have a pub house, why get an agent to take 10-15% of what you've already done--which is get a pub?

Because a good agent will more than compensate for their commission by negotiating a more favourable contract.

[jclarkdawe]

Your writer friend might have good advice, but because he didn't explain his reasoning, it's difficult to understand his approach.

When you have work done on your house, you can pay a contractor, who will get the permits, hire the subs, and deal with everything. Or you can act as the contractor, and be responsible for getting the permits and hiring the subs and deal with everything else. Obviously, if you do everything right, the second approach will save you money. Do it wrong, and the contractor will save you money.

The reason a contractor and an agent will save you money is they know how to bundle all their services. Doing it yourself means you have to have a fundamental understanding of the industry.

Ultimately an agent is going to manage your career, ideally leaving you with just the issue of writing and showing up for the book signings.

If you don't have an agent, you may need to:
-- hire an attorney as necessary to negotiate and review your contract
-- hire a publicist to promote you
-- hire an accountant to review and explain the financial reports you receive from your publisher
-- hire an accountant to give you tax advice and set up deals that minimize the tax consequences
-- hire an editor to review and advise you
-- find someone to guide and support you and advise you on your career

If you know what you're doing, you can do this all for less money than an agent is going to cost you. Many agents will offer you a flat rate for dealing with any portion of this.

The question is whether saving the money is worth it to you or the convenience. I can't think of any writers off the top of my head, but I know there are quite a few without agents.

Both approaches can be successful. It's up to you which your priority is.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe