Hiring an editor before submitting to agents/publishers
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It's really risky to hire and editor before a novel goes out. Chances are good you could end up paying the editor more than your advance. 
That being said once I have contracts in hand I have in the past hired editors to proof read for wrong words and such so my publishers wouldn't have to.
It's all personal preference.
That being said once I have contracts in hand I have in the past hired editors to proof read for wrong words and such so my publishers wouldn't have to.
It's all personal preference.
Nah, don't close the thread. And don't feel bad that this has been discussed before. After all, the last post on the other thread (which I have read) was over two months ago. Time to bring it up again.
There was one post in particular on the other thread that I thought was quite interesting. (Originally posted by sneakers145)
There was one post in particular on the other thread that I thought was quite interesting. (Originally posted by sneakers145)
The trick is finding a good one. It's like getting good critique groups. A good one is worth it, a bad one will hurt you. If you go this route, make sure you do your research.
Of course, personally I wouldn't do it unless you just want to see where you stand skill-wise. If you need an editor to get your work publishable, then what happens with your second novel? Will you have to always hire an editor? Isn;t it better to find resources that won't cost you momey each book? But that's just a personal preference
Of course, personally I wouldn't do it unless you just want to see where you stand skill-wise. If you need an editor to get your work publishable, then what happens with your second novel? Will you have to always hire an editor? Isn;t it better to find resources that won't cost you momey each book? But that's just a personal preference
My editor is my good friend, Nate. Although he's a friend, I know he will unequivocally tell me where my mistakes are and what needs changing. He doesn't hold anything back, and the proof is in the suggestions he's already sent me.
Several critical facts about him: 1) Has a master's in creative writing 2) Works as an assistant editor at a textbook company 3) Is a few years older than me (trust me, this one's kinda big)
Also, the best part is that payment is in the form of bar tabs.
Several critical facts about him: 1) Has a master's in creative writing 2) Works as an assistant editor at a textbook company 3) Is a few years older than me (trust me, this one's kinda big)
Also, the best part is that payment is in the form of bar tabs.
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See? I'm liking this. Personally, since I have never had a novel pubished before, I am doing exactly this. But modified. I am sending an editor in Manhattan (that used to work for big pub house - in my genre) 150 pages. It'll give her a feel for the work and she believes she can help me see my strengths and weaknesses with those pages. I got her name from someone in Sisters in Crime. Since she is charging $150, I think it's money well spent.
If hell does freeze over and I sell my ms, I sure hope I would be offered more than $150. I may never do this again, but it'll be nice to have a professional in the industry to yap to about it considering I'm green.
Just sayin'.
~Thrill
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When my book was published (non fiction), I worked closely with the publisher's editor. Her recommendations were thorough. I am now able to apply them when writing sample chapters (as part of the proposal writing process).
Couldn't the same be said for fiction work? Could an editor's comments for one book apply to future works?
That is true, my friend.
Those are good points. We should have qualifications that we should look for when hiring an editor. Though, number three isn't nec. a must have.
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Yes, it can. When a publisher buys your novel you are assigned an editor who works closely with you until the manuscript is galley ready. Then you get a few more nit pickers going over every single line. If you keep the hard copies of all your edits and revisions you have a great template for self editing future works.
Linnea
I see a few sides to this. It really depends on the editor and the story. The bottom line is that a trained eye- who really is worth their money and cares enough to do a stand-up job, can help a person see weaknesses and strengths.
I wouldn't say to do this as a routine though, because the truth is that it would only make a difference if someone is "that close" and needs someone to point out obvious flaws. Someone who is far off is going to learn, but an editor wouldn't take something that is not publishable and turn it into gold.
When I first wrote, I wasn't that great a writer. The story was bigger than me. My biggest problem wasn't figuring out where to go next, it was how to make things work. And perhaps someone could have co-written the story, and I'd have let them.
Different people's comments helped me to re-look at my story, but I still had to figure out how to write it. An editor will only do so much.
I wouldn't say to do this as a routine though, because the truth is that it would only make a difference if someone is "that close" and needs someone to point out obvious flaws. Someone who is far off is going to learn, but an editor wouldn't take something that is not publishable and turn it into gold.
When I first wrote, I wasn't that great a writer. The story was bigger than me. My biggest problem wasn't figuring out where to go next, it was how to make things work. And perhaps someone could have co-written the story, and I'd have let them.
Different people's comments helped me to re-look at my story, but I still had to figure out how to write it. An editor will only do so much.
What sort of editing do you think you need? There are several different kinds of editorial input. In levels of decreasing pickiness and increasing abstraction:
1) Copyediting (typos, grammar, consistency, etc.)
2) Technique
3) Style and voice
4) Story structure
Allow me to shoot my mouth off about each of these:
1) Copyediting. Unless I were rich, I'd be disinclined to hire a copyeditor. There's usually enough anal-retentive friends around to to get it into good-enough shape for submisssion. (Before I get flamed by the copyeditors, I'm not saying one's pals will do such a great job that it won't require professional copyediting after it is purchased--I'm just saying that they will do a good enough job with mistakes that it will be ready for an acquiring editor to look at it without flinching.)
2) Technique. By this, I mean the basics of how you put a story together on the page, and all the writing-class cliches and things you can learn in books about writing. I don't feel it is appropriate to hire an editor to look at the basics of how you write and amend your tendencies. It's not a cost-effective way to learn. I think people are better off with crit groups, novel workshops, conferences, books on writing, Uncle Jim, and SYW forums (fora, really). Unless you are a celebrity and money is no object. But in that case, just hire a ghostwriter.
3) Style and Voice. Not something an editor can fix. Indeed, I question whether good style and voice can be learned, since it is quite individual. I think it can be improved--by close reading, and by having people tell you when you suck--but why use an editor for this?
4) Story structure. I think this is an area where a good, practicing editor could write a solid memo a few pages long, telling you why she would reject your book (pacing, a problematic character, believability, stakes) and where it needed to be shored up. But where do you find this gem of an editor? If you had a solid recommendation from someone (preferably a professional writer) you respect, then it might be worth it. But even then, keep in mind that editors don't all agree--I've had editors praise things in my manuscripts that other editors thought were drawbacks. You may get as much or more from beta readers.
The biggest problem I've heard about while nosing around the web is that the services of most editorial shops are self-perpetuating business deals, like the contractors who built the Winchester Mystery House; that is, they encourage you to take on just one more service, just one more lesson; in effect, they turn into one-on-one writing classes that never end.
I actually think the diversity of novel workshops and community college classes and crit groups and forums like AW is inherently valuable. Readers--and editors--are diverse groups, and I think wide input is more valuable than employing a specialist.
On they other hand, if you're rich--do 'em all! (It's only money. And time.)
1) Copyediting (typos, grammar, consistency, etc.)
2) Technique
3) Style and voice
4) Story structure
Allow me to shoot my mouth off about each of these:
1) Copyediting. Unless I were rich, I'd be disinclined to hire a copyeditor. There's usually enough anal-retentive friends around to to get it into good-enough shape for submisssion. (Before I get flamed by the copyeditors, I'm not saying one's pals will do such a great job that it won't require professional copyediting after it is purchased--I'm just saying that they will do a good enough job with mistakes that it will be ready for an acquiring editor to look at it without flinching.)
2) Technique. By this, I mean the basics of how you put a story together on the page, and all the writing-class cliches and things you can learn in books about writing. I don't feel it is appropriate to hire an editor to look at the basics of how you write and amend your tendencies. It's not a cost-effective way to learn. I think people are better off with crit groups, novel workshops, conferences, books on writing, Uncle Jim, and SYW forums (fora, really). Unless you are a celebrity and money is no object. But in that case, just hire a ghostwriter.
3) Style and Voice. Not something an editor can fix. Indeed, I question whether good style and voice can be learned, since it is quite individual. I think it can be improved--by close reading, and by having people tell you when you suck--but why use an editor for this?
4) Story structure. I think this is an area where a good, practicing editor could write a solid memo a few pages long, telling you why she would reject your book (pacing, a problematic character, believability, stakes) and where it needed to be shored up. But where do you find this gem of an editor? If you had a solid recommendation from someone (preferably a professional writer) you respect, then it might be worth it. But even then, keep in mind that editors don't all agree--I've had editors praise things in my manuscripts that other editors thought were drawbacks. You may get as much or more from beta readers.
The biggest problem I've heard about while nosing around the web is that the services of most editorial shops are self-perpetuating business deals, like the contractors who built the Winchester Mystery House; that is, they encourage you to take on just one more service, just one more lesson; in effect, they turn into one-on-one writing classes that never end.
I actually think the diversity of novel workshops and community college classes and crit groups and forums like AW is inherently valuable. Readers--and editors--are diverse groups, and I think wide input is more valuable than employing a specialist.
On they other hand, if you're rich--do 'em all! (It's only money. And time.)
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Thanks for the breakdown, David.
I'm not sure about the type of services my reader would be interested in. I would imagine it's number four.
But you are right, it's finding an excellent editor that would be a challenge.
I think he wants to go through a few beta's then find an editor.
The discussion that lead to this topic was his interest in self publishing. I commented that if I were to self publish, I would hire an editor. Even though it would be expensive to do so because my name will be on the book.
He then asked if writers hire editors when they (meaning writers) go the traditional route. I know I didn't, but I wondered if others have.
I'm not sure about the type of services my reader would be interested in. I would imagine it's number four.
But you are right, it's finding an excellent editor that would be a challenge.
I think he wants to go through a few beta's then find an editor.
The discussion that lead to this topic was his interest in self publishing. I commented that if I were to self publish, I would hire an editor. Even though it would be expensive to do so because my name will be on the book.
He then asked if writers hire editors when they (meaning writers) go the traditional route. I know I didn't, but I wondered if others have.
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I'm inclined to agree with you there!
Though I wouldn't be inclined to self-publish fiction...
Good insights all. My take has been more practical than theoretical. Driven by beginner's insecurity, I hired two editors about two years apart for my first novel, one in San Fran, the second in NYC, both with strong editing backgrounds. Both helped make it better (I guess), though it never found an agent. No outside editior saw my second novel, but my "hot" writers group helped with many sections. That second novel resulted in agent representation for all my stuff. The lesson to me: Good work can be made better by the right outsider, mediocre work needs to be put away for later or for ever. g.
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I think that self-publishing is one of the few cases where it DOES make sense to hire an editor (and I say this as a freelance editor myself).
Another case where it might be useful would be for writers for whom English is a second language.
Another case where it might be useful would be for writers for whom English is a second language.
Just one more point. If someone has a good enough story, they should be able to get Beta readers to read it, people who love that Genre.
There are intelligent Beta Readers. They won't edit, but if several people are willing to read the books, that in and of itself is an encouragement to move forward.
One person went through the first draft- love this, love this, love this character... I hope these two fall in love...silence.
The silence spoke volumes, because I realized they stopped reading it, and didn't want to hurt my feelings. If this person is at the point where Beta Readers love enough of the story to encourage them, then perhaps they have something to work with and need insight. But if they can't get people to read five pages, it's likely they need a decent- decent writer's group more than an editor.
There are intelligent Beta Readers. They won't edit, but if several people are willing to read the books, that in and of itself is an encouragement to move forward.
One person went through the first draft- love this, love this, love this character... I hope these two fall in love...silence.
The silence spoke volumes, because I realized they stopped reading it, and didn't want to hurt my feelings. If this person is at the point where Beta Readers love enough of the story to encourage them, then perhaps they have something to work with and need insight. But if they can't get people to read five pages, it's likely they need a decent- decent writer's group more than an editor.
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BarbaraKE "Story structure. I think this is an area where a good, practicing editor could write a solid memo a few pages long, telling you why she would reject your book (pacing, a problematic character, believability, stakes) and where it needed to be shored up.
You phrased it perfectly. This is exactly what I am looking for."
Yup. This is my reasoning. Although, I am only sending 150 pages (I can't afford to have the whole novel gone over). I want to get some idea on why and why not the story might be rejected. I thought someone who is in the industry might lend a different insight than a beta. I think my betas are awesome,though.
~Thrill
You phrased it perfectly. This is exactly what I am looking for."
Yup. This is my reasoning. Although, I am only sending 150 pages (I can't afford to have the whole novel gone over). I want to get some idea on why and why not the story might be rejected. I thought someone who is in the industry might lend a different insight than a beta. I think my betas are awesome,though.
~Thrill
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Do the qualifications of a beta matter? I'm asking sincerely. I realize how the question can come off as snarky.
What qualifications should a beta to have? MFA, publishing background? Or is it enough for a beta to write well and love to read?
I'm with you on the imposing comment. But I will eventually feel "at home" on this forum (I just joined last month) that I'll be comfortable enough to ask when the time comes. Though I recently began working on my novel and have a way to go before I need a beta.
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I vote for "write well and love to read" or even just "love to read".
Of course, qualifications depend on what you want them to do.
I had specific things I wanted my betas for. My first novel was set in a place that has lots of history and peculiarities, and I wanted one beta to check my accuracy. Another two betas were checking for dialect issues from the American and British points of view: is there anywhere a narrator uses a word that would be inappropriate for their culture? (I get mixed up now, since I live in both worlds.) Is there anywhere a word from the other culture that you don't understand, even in context?
For general beta reading, which can cover everything from copyediting grammar and punctuation to overarching story structure and likeability of characters, it's a good idea to know what your beta is good at and willing to do. Some people love nitpicking and would be thrilled to give you a line edit. Some people just want to read for enjoyment and then you can ask them at the end: If you would change one thing to make this story more enjoyable, what would it be?
The most important qualification for a beta for me is love of books. Find someone with whom you've talked about books before, and whose opinion you value. Maybe that someone is a writer, maybe a reader. Maybe they're trained in something writing-related officially, maybe only from years of book loving.
The big caveat with betas is: they're usually better at finding problems than solving them. Listen to where they say the issues are; then solve them your own creative way.
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I'm still in high school and my first is still a WIP but one of my friends has a habit of marking and correcting whatever is put in front of her, she can't resist finding mistakes, whether it's someone's assignment, just a piece of homework or something non-school related. I'm planning to give it to her because chances are she'll be over eager to tear it to shreads. I also plan to give it to several other people with absoloutely no formal qualifications and find the middle ground to what everyone says. Between them they should be able to find all the mistakes and it's not as if I'm writing specifically for people with PhDs in the grammer of verbs when used in the middle of a sentence. (Yes, I realise no-one's that specific). It won't be perfect (I use the term loosely) but it should give an idea if I'm heading in the right direction. If several "normal" people find it interesting so should at least part of the general public.
I've never editted anything as big as a novel but I tend to think that if you're good enough to write a reasonable novel you should be good enough to edit it with the help of people ranging from those who will tear it apart to those who say "that was nice but you could do this slightly better." Just my opinion though.
I've never editted anything as big as a novel but I tend to think that if you're good enough to write a reasonable novel you should be good enough to edit it with the help of people ranging from those who will tear it apart to those who say "that was nice but you could do this slightly better." Just my opinion though.
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It's a good question. The main qualification is that they should be readers.
I use a mix of writers and non-writers.
One of the most useful things is to tell at least some if not all of your betas they should feel free to stop reading when they get bored--and if they read the whole thing they should let you know any places where they thought the story sagged or where they were tempted to go do something else.
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