Dialogue, saidisms and facial tics.

mum23 · Jan 1, 2008

After some excellent crits one thing stood out that I haven't been made so much aware of. Dialogue tags.
When is or when is it not best to use said?
Facial tics and expressions?

My dialogue; “Sometimes fate decides for us,” Maureen stated. “Some children have to be born and I feel this child will be a fire sign or will be born within the sign. Maybe March.”
“Perhaps it’s my friend’s daughter.” Once again I offered information.
“It's not his daughter; you won't be close to her. You will simply look after her.” Then Maureen quickly added. “He will be good with your children. But if you want another daughter,” and she winked. “Well she's there if you decide.”

Suggestion; “Sometimes fate decides for us. Some children have to be born and I feel this child will be a fire sign or will be born within the sign. Maybe March.”

“Perhaps it’s my friend’s daughter.”

“It's not his daughter; you won't be close to her. You will simply look after her. He will be good with your children. But if you want another daughter . . . Well she's there if you decide.”

To me, the 2nd dialogue works so much better as suggested. Why am I not seeing this in the first place?
I think I have "show vs tell" then this comes along. AAGGGHHHHHHH!!!

scarletpeaches · Jan 1, 2008

I think the second example works better, too.

I only ever use dialogue tags when I need to make it clear who is speaking, and an action is not necessary or possible. Even then, I try to stick to 'said' as much as I can. I have more of a problem when there are three people in the conversation rather than the much-easier-to-deal-with two...and in each novel I've written, there always seems to be one big scene centred around a three-way conversation. D'oh! Why do I do that to myself?!

But when it comes to dialogue tags, the dialogue itself should make clear a) who is speaking, b) who they are speaking to and c) how they are speaking...all of which do away with the need for a pesky tag.

geardrops · Jan 1, 2008

Why people hate "said" I don't understand. It's one of the few relatively invisible words in English.

Tags should only be used to make it clear who is speaking. It's perfectly sensible to leave things without tags if the reader can keep up on who is saying what.

You don't use "said" when someone does something other than simply "say" something and it isn't obvious how they are doing so from some other bit of text. If there's an exclamation point after a series of very angry words, I'll be able to suss out that this person is shouting. You don't need to tell me.

And the second example does work better.

scarletpeaches · Jan 1, 2008

Did we just agree again?

*shudder*

geardrops · Jan 1, 2008

This is becoming a situation. Someone alert the authorities.

mum23 · Jan 1, 2008

scarletpeaches said:
I think the second example works better, too.

I only ever use dialogue tags when I need to make it clear who is speaking, and an action is not necessary or possible. Even then, I try to stick to 'said' as much as I can. I have more of a problem when there are three people in the conversation rather than the much-easier-to-deal-with two...and in each novel I've written, there always seems to be one big scene centred around a three-way conversation. D'oh! Why do I do that to myself?!

But when it comes to dialogue tags, the dialogue itself should make clear a) who is speaking, b) who they are speaking to and c) how they are speaking...all of which do away with the need for a pesky tag.

Thanks Scarlett. So how about this. A said AND a facial tic?

“I want to give you an old name. Can you take the name Mary, in spirit or around you? And I see a church but it's not a wedding and you are dealing with horses. Do you have any?” Maureen said, lost in some sort of knowing grin.

slcboston · Jan 1, 2008

I like the second better, but with a caveat. I think the tag in the middle of the last thing Maureen says creates a different flow of the words. And this is one of the advantages to the tags/descriptors above just general punctuation.

So while, yes, tags should be used generally only to clarify who's speaking, in absence of other indicators, there are times when from a narrative standpoint they can be beneficial. There are some things you can't convey from speech alone, and a sparing usage of tags and indicators can help create a more detailed and vivid picture for your reader.

scarletpeaches · Jan 1, 2008

I think if they're sprinkled sparingly, they work. But not every piece of dialogue needs an attribution or a 'tic'.

I've just been editing a scene I thought was the mutt's nuts when I first wrote it...one of my infamous three-way conversations again. *sigh* Too many damn tags and attributions, even with the difficulty of not being able to back-and-forth as you could with two people.

Still, it's teaching me to give each character an individual voice, to make it clear to the reader who's talking without having to hit them over the head with groans, interjections, cries, stutters, mutters and ejaculations.

DeadlyAccurate · Jan 1, 2008

mum23 said:
After some excellent crits one thing stood out that I haven't been made so much aware of. Dialogue tags.
When is or when is it not best to use said?
Facial tics and expressions?

My dialogue; “Sometimes fate decides for us,” Maureen stated. “Some children have to be born and I feel this child will be a fire sign or will be born within the sign. Maybe March.”
“Perhaps it’s my friend’s daughter.” Once again I offered information.
“It's not his daughter; you won't be close to her. You will simply look after her.” Then Maureen quickly added. “He will be good with your children. But if you want another daughter,” and she winked. “Well she's there if you decide.”

This one has several errors and a few other problems. First, the word "stated" in the first line throws you out of the story the way "said" wouldn't; it isn't even necessary. It's obvious the words are being stated. You just stated them.

The second line, "Perhaps..." has an irrelevant second sentence. Again, it's obvious the narrator is offering information. He/She just did.

And the final one, you need a comma, not a period, after "added." And it should probably be "But if you want another daughter..." She winked. "Well, she's there if you decide."

BlueLucario · Jan 1, 2008

dempsey said:
Why people hate "said" I don't understand. It's one of the few relatively invisible words in English.

Tags should only be used to make it clear who is speaking. It's perfectly sensible to leave things without tags if the reader can keep up on who is saying what.

You don't use "said" when someone does something other than simply "say" something and it isn't obvious how they are doing so from some other bit of text. If there's an exclamation point after a series of very angry words, I'll be able to suss out that this person is shouting. You don't need to tell me.

And the second example does work better.

Sometimes it isn't obvious. I got an F in my short story English project for constantly using said. The teacher was very constructive though. I was taught in school that when you use dialogue, you describe to the reader how this quote is being said, using "said" shows the reader that the author is too lazy and the tag gets annoying rather fast.

Oh well, down with school.

"SCHOOL SUCKS!" I said.

I should still say said. It won't look right if said is being used for this quote. But that's my opinion

I like the second one better because it's easier to read.

kristie911 · Jan 1, 2008

I prefer to write dialogue without tags. It's a personal preference. But when it starts to become necessary to point out who's speaking, I will usually add some kind of action. Too much action makes characters seem twitchy but very seldom will two people have a conversation with no movement whatsoever. Maybe that's just me though...I like to talk with my hands.

In this case, I definitely like the second example better.

scarletpeaches · Jan 1, 2008

BlueLucario said:
Sometimes it isn't obvious. I got an F in my short story English project for constantly using said. The teacher was very constructive though. I was taught in school that when you use dialogue, you describe to the reader how this quote is being said, using "said" shows the reader that the author is too lazy and the tag gets annoying rather fast.

Oh well, down with school.

"SCHOOL SUCKS!" I said.

I should still say said. It won't look right if said is being used for this quote. But that's my opinion

I like the second one better because it's easier to read.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.

You describe through the dialogue itself how the words are said. The speech should, if you'll pardon the pun, speak for itself.

FennelGiraffe · Jan 1, 2008

Yes, the second version is much better. But. (There's always a but, you know...)

Now you have talking heads. They don't have bodies, they aren't in any location, etc. Of course, this is only a brief excerpt. The rest of the scene may address that adequately. If so, there's nothing at all wrong with a few lines of pure dialog.

If not though, you might want to add some narrative back in. If you do, there's nothing wrong with winking. That is, not unless all of your characters wink and blink and frown and sneer through all of their dialog. That sort of thing is best used sparingly. Oh, and of course you can't use winking as a dialog tag; people can't wink words.

But if you have several paragraphs of dialog with no narrative at all, you might want to try something like this:

“Sometimes fate decides for us. Some children have to be born and I feel this child will be a fire sign or will be born within the sign. Maybe March.”

I stepped toward the window and raised one hand to shade my eyes against the harsh sunlight. As I peered down the road, I wondered why Gavin hadn't returned yet. “Perhaps it’s my friend’s daughter.”

“It's not his daughter; you won't be close to her. You will simply look after her. He will be good with your children. But if you want another daughter . . . Well she's there if you decide.”

DeadlyAccurate · Jan 1, 2008

BlueLucario said:
I was taught in school that when you use dialogue, you describe to the reader how this quote is being said, using "said" shows the reader that the author is too lazy and the tag gets annoying rather fast.

Your teacher was wrong, but of course you know that now. Fortunately, since you're here, you'll be able to unlearn whatever writing-related crap they were teaching you.

katiemac · Jan 1, 2008

I'll admit to this being one of my smaller issues. I tend to over-describe character's movements, especially within dialogue. I let myself do it the first time, but end up eliminating almost all of it during revisions -- it's just not necessary.

Another poster mentioned "floating bodies," so yes, the second set of dialogue is easier to read, but too much without tags can be confusing. But the direction doesn't always have to be a direct tag. The key is to let the dialogue itself reinforce who is speaking and how they're speaking.

“I want to give you an old name. Can you take the name Mary, in spirit or around you? And I see a church but it's not a wedding and you are dealing with horses. Do you have any?” Maureen said, lost in some sort of knowing grin.

Click to expand...

Your example: "Do you know any?" ~~Maureen said~~, lost in some sort of knowing grin.

"Do you know any?" Maureen grinned.

This example isn't the best, because it suggests that she might be grinning her question, but you can usually eliminate the "said" half if you have another direction.

"I love you," she said, looking at the photograph.

"I love you." She looked at the photograph.

Of course, it always depends. It may be important that she's looking at the photograph when she speaks instead of who she's speaking to.

The biggest question to ask is whether or not her "knowing grin" is important.

FennelGiraffe · Jan 1, 2008

BlueLucario said:
Sometimes it isn't obvious. I got an F in my short story English project for constantly using said. The teacher was very constructive though. I was taught in school that when you use dialogue, you describe to the reader how this quote is being said, using "said" shows the reader that the author is too lazy and the tag gets annoying rather fast.

Generally, using specific and descriptive verbs is good and repeating the same word frequently is bad. As you now know, however, the convention for dialog tags is to stick with the unobtrusive "said." For some reason, though, many otherwise competent school teachers aren't aware of that distinction.

IceCreamEmpress · Jan 1, 2008

I almost always use "said" unless it's necessary to use another word that describes the physical action of speaking, like "shouted" or "whispered". I try not to use "explained" more than once per 100 pages, because otherwise I would probably use it way too often.

FennelGiraffe said:
Generally, using specific and descriptive verbs is good and repeating the same word frequently is bad. As you now know, however, the convention for dialog tags is to stick with the unobtrusive "said." For some reason, though, many otherwise competent school teachers aren't aware of that distinction.

One of the first things that one does as a teacher of first-year college writing is to inform students that the "rules" some of them learned in high school writing are wrong. "Never use 'said'" is one of those particular bugbears, as are "Never use the first person when writing essays" and "Never use contractions when writing essays."

And one still receives a large number of essays that begin: "In the opinion of this writer..." and sound like Mr. Spock. Excuse me, Head? Have I neglected to introduce you to my friend Desk?

kuwisdelu · Jan 1, 2008

BlueLucario said:
Sometimes it isn't obvious. I got an F in my short story English project for constantly using said. The teacher was very constructive though. I was taught in school that when you use dialogue, you describe to the reader how this quote is being said, using "said" shows the reader that the author is too lazy and the tag gets annoying rather fast.

Dontcha hate that? As everyone else here has pointed out--your teacher was wrong. He's a couple hundred years too late. But all teachers are.

Unless you're lucky enough to have a teacher who's a published author, teachers have always been saying this, have always been wrong, and have always confused beginning writers. All writers go through the "but my teacher said not to use 'said'!" phase.

My opinion is this is a holdover from back a couple centuries ago when writers DID use tags like "ejaculated" and it was accepted. But times change, and now that tag would get you funny looks, and as others have pointed out "said" is now an invisible word. Use it at will.

Birol · Jan 1, 2008

kuwisdelu said:
My opinion is this is a holdover from back a couple centuries ago when writers DID use tags like "ejaculated" and it was accepted. But times change, and now that tag would get you funny looks, and as others have pointed out "said" is now an invisible word. Use it at will.

I think it's an attempt to build the student's vocabulary by encouraging use.

Sage · Jan 1, 2008

Birol said:
I think it's an attempt to build the student's vocabulary by encouraging use.

I definitely agree with this. I remember having a full list of words to use instead of "said" in elementary or middle school. Still, it's kinda sad that in school you are taught to use anything but "said," for dialogue, and then you get out into the real writing world and find out that the advice is backwards.

Birol · Jan 1, 2008

School-based English courses aren't really about creative writing. Nor are they about writing commercially. They're designed to teach the formal use of language.

IceCreamEmpress · Jan 1, 2008

Birol said:
School-based English courses aren't really about creative writing. Nor are they about writing commercially. They're designed to teach the formal use of language.

But here's the thing: there is no context in which the commandments "Don't use 'said'," "Don't use the first person singular," and "Don't use contractions" are appropriate.

Wait, I take that back. It's not appropriate to use the first person singular when writing a papal enyclical.

Birol · Jan 1, 2008

The use of 'said' is largely about creative writing. Dialogue is largely about fiction. However, the creation of short stories in the context of English classes allows the students an opportunity to practice properly using quotation marks, adverbs, etc. Students are not being trained to write creatively when they write short fiction in high school comp; they're being given an exercise which allows them to use the tools they've been shown.

Contractions are inherently informal and not appropriate in either academic or business writing, both of which are formal writing styles. Students are much more likely to engage in academic or business writing than they are to write creatively.

IceCreamEmpress · Jan 1, 2008

Birol said:
Contractions are inherently informal and not appropriate in either academic or business writing, both of which are formal writing styles.

I could not possibly disagree with you more about this! Contractions can be, and are, appropriately used in the most formal academic presentations imaginable, as they are in business writing from SEC filings to arguments before the Supreme Court.

This is one of the best things I've read on the subject--it does a much better job than I do of articulating why a blanket ban on contractions is counterproductive (and quotes from some of my favorite writing gurus, including Zinsser and Garner, in support of the theory).

And surely we agree that the "don't use the first person singular" rule is ridiculous, yes? There is nothing that, to my mind, seems as amateurish and clunky as "In this writer's opinion" or similar.

katiemac · Jan 1, 2008

And surely we agree that the "don't use the first person singular" rule is ridiculous, yes? There is nothing that, to my mind, seems as amateurish and clunky as "In this writer's opinion" or similar.

As a tutor of academic writing, I pretty much still stand by the "no first person singular" rule. However, that doesn't mean I urge people to use "in this writer's opinion," or any variation. Their opinions are obvious in the text without having to use "I" or "the writer" at all.

I believe the 'no first person' rule originated because students tended to use it because it is completely unnecessary most of the time. But, as always, I stand by the idea that any writing rule can be broken.

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