Beta or Agent

popmuze · Dec 29, 2007

I have an agent sending my fiction around. Now I'm on my way to completing my next novel. I'm wondering if I should send this first to my agent or first to a couple of trusted beta readers before I send it to the agent. I realize the agent's word will be final (unless I want to leave this agent) but I don't want to give the agent anything less than my best shot.

P.S.: I've briefly told the agent about the book and received favorable response.

reenkam · Dec 29, 2007

I personally don't have an agent, but as far as I know, most authors continue to use betas pre-agent throughout their writing careers. So I'd said betas first, agent later.

DeleyanLee · Dec 29, 2007

If you used beta readers for the first book, why wouldn't you use them again for the second? Evidently the agent liked what you did the first time. Don't mess with what works.

Dustry Joe · Dec 29, 2007

I am not real big on the value of input from "betas" as I guess they are oddly called these days.

So I'd say this. The agent liked your work, show her your first 50 or so of the next one. (Assuming you've polished it and all that jazz) Her opinion means way more than your neighbor's does. And agents like to know there's more where that came from and can use it in making a sale.

You have a professional relationship with an agent...that's where you are these days and you should use it and respect it to the fullest.

slcboston · Dec 29, 2007

Dustry Joe said:
The agent liked your work, show her your first 50 or so of the next one. (Assuming you've polished it and all that jazz) Her opinion means way more than your neighbor's does. And agents like to know there's more where that came from and can use it in making a sale.

yeah, but an agent's one person. I'm all for letting the agent know there's another in the works and getting his/her opinion, but echoing what's been said here if your peer group worked the first time, use them again.

You are writing for a larger audience, obviously, so getting feedback from that prospective audience is a good thing.

Stijn Hommes · Dec 29, 2007

You don't want to make a bad impression on the agent. I'd send it to betas first to avoid an embarrasing mistake to hit the agent's desk. Don't worry, the agent won't mind you using betareaders. It's a good thing.

Dustry Joe · Dec 29, 2007

You are writing for a larger audience, obviously, so getting feedback from that prospective audience is a good thing.

Nobody you know has an opinion that matters more than your agent's....accept that of the publishers.

Don't worry about "embarrassing". This is your AGENT. You can't hide or dress up. She's already accepted your work.

A general rule I apply to feeback in writing is that I pay attention to suggestions if they make sense to me...and make changes only when they come from somebody who has an investment in the work. Five hundred bozos on the bus tell me something, fine, are they selling books these days?

Somebody says, let's work on this and I'll represent you, or, I'll buy your book, but let's do this, and I consider it. The process of publishing really involves forging deeper and more widespread partnerships in the success of your book.

Your agent almost certainly has some Litmajorserfs who do some of the reading for her, etc. Their opinion matters more than your people's do.

But mostly, again, This Is YOUR AGENT...trust her, deal with her, show her what's going on.

cethklein · Dec 29, 2007

Let's face it, Betas are the same as people who will potentially buy your book. So even if you've got an agent and a successful career, having a beta look over your work could never be a bad thing. Look at it this way, an agent is interested in selling your book. A beta, like a reader, is looking at reading your book. And a reader is a buyer. As far as I'm concerned, if I had a 100 books under my belt I would still have betas read my books.

But that's just me.

Julie Worth · Dec 29, 2007

Dustry Joe said:
You have a professional relationship with an agent...that's where you are these days and you should use it and respect it to the fullest.

To use agent lingo, this is a subjective business, and an agent's opinion, while more informed than most, is just that, the opinion of one person. The more input you can get prior to sending it off to a publisher, the better.

CheshireCat · Dec 29, 2007

reenkam said:
I personally don't have an agent, but as far as I know, most authors continue to use betas pre-agent throughout their writing careers. So I'd said betas first, agent later.

I know a lot of published writers, most of them quite successful. None of them use betas other than their agents -- and most don't use their agents that way. I certainly don't.

The point is that you should learn not to depend on betas to vet your work. It's understandable that most writers would be uncertain of their skills in the early part of a career, but once you're established and have a few books under your belt, you should be able to submit polished work on your own.

That isn't to say that agents and/or editors won't request changes from minor tweaking to total overhauls -- but when they do they should be looking at a manuscript that's your best work at the time -- not an amalgam of you plus two or three beta readers.

IMO, of course.

a_sharp · Dec 29, 2007

Unless you have changed genres or otherwise taken a major departure from your accepted book, I'd go with Dustry Joe's advice. Landing an agent puts you in another league.

So many publishing professionals have written that a writer-agent relationship is like a marriage. It implies similar trust. The readers at your literary agency back that trust. You are now part of the family and your writing will be given special consideration now. That doesn't mean the agent will accept it on faith alone. You'll get critiques, but now they'll come from an industry insider who is interested in helping your career and developing your writing prowess.

Julie Worth · Dec 29, 2007

CheshireCat said:
The point is that you should learn not to depend on betas to vet your work.

The problem is that you know the material. I'm constantly amazed at how many creative ways even good readers can misread something. The misreading might reflect just a few percent of the population, but if you can correct it with a couple of words, why not do it? Get enough readers who misread, or who have to read something twice, and you'll have a much better MS. You can't do this with just one reader.

katiemac · Dec 29, 2007

I know agents who go through drafts and drafts of established clients' work to help them get it into shape for publication. I don't know if your agent is one of them.

Why don't you ask your agent if s/he'd rather see it now or after you've have your readers go through it?

Carrie R. · Dec 29, 2007

katiemac said:
Why don't you ask your agent if s/he'd rather see it now or after you've have your readers go through it?

I second that advice -- I'm all for lots of agent/author communication.

I have a related question... for those of you with agents, do you wait until you've finished a project before sending it to your agent or do you send them snippets along the way (like sending the partial once it's complete)?

katiemac · Dec 29, 2007

I have a related question... for those of you with agents, do you wait until you've finished a project before sending it to your agent or do you send them snippets along the way (like sending the partial once it's complete)?

Not agented myself, but I've worked with agents who do both.

CheshireCat · Dec 29, 2007

Julie Worth said:
The problem is that you know the material. I'm constantly amazed at how many creative ways even good readers can misread something. The misreading might reflect just a few percent of the population, but if you can correct it with a couple of words, why not do it? Get enough readers who misread, or who have to read something twice, and you'll have a much better MS. You can't do this with just one reader.

You can show your work to thirty or forty readers if you want to -- but I guarantee there will still be readers who misunderstand, or misread, or otherwise don't "get" something you've written.

That is also the point. The old saw is true: You can't please everyone. You also can't make your work crystal-clear to every single reader. If it's clear to you, and clear to your agent, and clear to the editor (and copy-editor, and others who will read it in-house), then, IMO, it's clear enough.

One of the skills of a professional writer is the ability to see your work clearly enough, and objectively enough to be able to tell your story and tell it well. I submit that this is a skill you can't learn if you're running your work by people not involved in the publishing process and tweaking things according to their opinions. What's more, I believe a writer's natural voice can be affected, and not positively, by too much input from non-industry readers who have no understanding of or appreciation for voice.

And in today's market, with competition so tough, voice is just about everything.

My opinion.

Dustry Joe · Dec 29, 2007

Why don't you ask your agent if s/he'd rather see it now or after you've have your readers go through it?

This sounds like good advice.

I continue to feel that the idea that you can't trust you agent to look at your new work without running it by your babysitter or whoever is not coming from professional experience.

I can't stress strongly enough that once you have a contract with an agent, or a publisher, things change. It's not longer a vague "them" up there. It's kind of like you might ask your girlfriends all sort of things about men and relationships and stuff but once you get married, that's your main relationship and what goes on there is more important than what your pals think.

In fact, the idea that some friend reading your work is somehow closer to the market than your agent is pretty silly. The publisher is your market. Your agent knows him by his first name. She had lunch with him last month and he mentioned some things he's tired of seeing and what he's really looking for. She's seen galleys from her other writers coming back from him.

Once you hit the pros, the value of the guys on your sandlot becomes much less valuable. And could even be detrimental.

kuwisdelu · Dec 29, 2007

I don't have an agent yet, so feel free to disregard my advice. Maybe it's just me, but I couldn't think of sending anything out, even to an agent I've known for years, without running it past my wife. She's read just about every book in the English language, and many in lots of other languages, too, and I respect her opinion on literature more than anyone. She has a great feel for my voice and style, and probably knows my work better than any agent or editor could. To me, she's not just some beta reader, she's an extension of my internal editor, and sees things in my writing that I never could because I'm too close to it. But the thing is, I think I've gotten to the point where my writing is polished enough on my own that her comments are probably a lot less intensive than most betas around here. My last story, her only comment was "it's fine," and before that was "i didn't sympathize Kate; make her more likeable," and before that was "it's fine," etc.

So it depends on you and your betas. If you have a very close beta whose opinion you respect more than life itself, definitely show it to him or her first. If it's just a friend who read your book and told you what he or she thought, then you should probably just go ahead and send it to your agent.

Julie Worth · Dec 30, 2007

CheshireCat said:
What's more, I believe a writer's natural voice can be affected, and not positively, by too much input from non-industry readers who have no understanding of or appreciation for voice.

This is true. The writer can't take every bit of advice, and often the worst advice is from amateurs who parrot rules of thumb they don't understand. The writer should just thank them and use only what makes sense.

Dustry Joe · Dec 30, 2007

I don't have an agent yet, so feel free to disregard my advice.

My guess would be, if you look at all the people who think their buddy's comments are more important than their agent's you will be talking about people who don't have agents or have never worked with one.
People who have or know agents, as I've been trying to point out here, have a different attitude about professional versus amateur input. That's because they are professional, not amateur writers.

But whatever the various opinions, it's hard to get around the idea put forth above by another poster. ASK YOUR AGENT WHAT TO DO.

"If you have to trust anybody, trust your agent." William Gibson, "Count Zero"

Danthia · Dec 30, 2007

Agents are not editors. While many agents offer editorial feedback, that isn't their job. Their job is to sell books to publishers. Your job as a writer is to give them a book they can sell. My agent likes that I have a good critique group, because my work comes to her in a more polished and thus sellable form. In our early pre-signing days, "get a good critique group" was something she mentioned. Luckily, I already had one (two actually). I'm not giving them up no matter how many books I may sell. My work is better because of their input.

If you find value from your beta readers ad crit groups, stick with them. If they helped make your book good enough for an agent, why abandon them now? If they didn't offer anything helpful, then go it alone. But be wary of coming across as an unprofessional author who needs their agent to hold their hand at every step. Unless you have an understanding with your agent that they will work editorially on new projects with you in the early draft stages, don't pester them with something that's essential your job. Asking their advice on a new project is fine, but don't push it too far.

popmuze · Dec 30, 2007

Dustry Joe said:
People who have or know agents, as I've been trying to point out here, have a different attitude about professional versus amateur input. That's because they are professional, not amateur writers.

As someone who has had a number of agents over the years and published a number of books (approximately one per agent) I don't have the same warm and cuddly feeling about this breed. I feel if you give them a reason to lose interest in you, they will. Whether that comes with the first editor who turns down your next project or the first sign that the book they placed for you may not earn out its advance, they generally go where the money is. I admit my new agent seems very excited by my work. I don't want to do anything to spoil that excitement. As far as trust, I think trust comes when the project is a total success for all concerned. Like someone else once told me once, "It's amazing how a hit record serves as a bonding agent for a band."

Provrb1810meggy · Dec 30, 2007

I have an agent, but I plan on still sending my next book to my faithful beta reader and maybe a few others, just to get the book into polished, final draft form. I want to send my agent the best book possible, and even when you send what you think is the best book possible, your agent will probably still have feedback and suggestions...maybe just not as much.

Anyway, I think it's a personal decision. There is nothing wrong with using betas, and there is nothing wrong with not using betas. Whatever is better for you and for your manuscript!

Prawn · Dec 30, 2007

I asked my agent, and she didn't want to see the second book until it was polished, so it's out to a dozen betas right now.

maddythemad · Dec 30, 2007

Why don't you ask your agent? Chances are, s/he'd like you to give them a cleaner copy of your book. However, my agent has said that I should send it to her in any version I want to, and she seems to mean it (nevertheless, I think I'll try to avoid sending her a typo-ridden version.

)

Beta or Agent

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