Need help with Jewish/Yiddish phrases

[SheliaRudesill]

Hope someone can help!

I'm well into my third novel and the protagonist and her best friend are Jewish, the third friend is Catholic. One of the Jewish girls uses some "Jackie Mason" type phrases. She's 25 and a designer in NYC. I want her to sound like she lives in NY, but don't want her to sound "stereotyped."

I also want to use words that non-Jewish people would recognize, like Oy, vay or schmuck.

I also need other phrases like, "You should never know from human misery" or "He should live to be 100 with every tooth in his mouth and a cavity in every tooth."

Anything at all will help and if there's anyone out there who would like to proof read it for ethnic accuracy I'm willing to pay!

Thanks!

Shelia

check out this upcoming novel (Transmutare) on my website

[Sassenach]

It seems unlikely to me that a 25 y.o. designer would use the expressions you mentioned...perhaps a 80 y.o. grandmother would.

A number of Yiddish words [e.g., maven, schlep, schmatta, etc.] have made their way into the general vocabulary.]

[Medievalist]

One of the Jewish girls uses some "Jackie Mason" type phrases. She's 25 and a designer in NYC. I want her to sound like she lives in NY, but don't want her to sound "stereotyped."

She wouldn't use most of the language you've mentioned. Stick to the borrowed words and idioms that you'll find in standard English, unless you're writing dialog for someone of the older generation, that is, the generation that fought in WW II.

[rich]

I'm an Italian boy from Brooklyn. "Schmuck" is still used there by both jews and gentiles of all ages--Yiddish phrases, however, less so by the young.

You want I should say more? I don't want to be a pain in the tukis.

[rich]

Hey, where's Jenna: that young jewish girl from Queens? I think she might add her two sheckels in if urged.

[CACTUSWENDY]

Oy...from your lips to God's ears.

;)

[jackie106]

I used to live in NYC and no one my age (twenty-something) would talk like that. Chalk it up to MTV or assimilation, but speech patterns have changed.

HOWEVER, she might talk like that if she were imitating her grandmother. I can do a damn fine Aussie/Brit accent when imitating mine.

If you have the funds, try to visit NYC (if you haven't already) and listen to the way people talk.

Jackie

[Sassenach]

If you have the funds, try to visit NYC (if you haven't already) and listen to the way people talk.
Jackie

A good idea, but it doesn't really address Sheila's mistaken [IMO] idea that there'd be significant difference in the speech patterns of two 25 y.o. contemporaries. Is one going to sound like a Catholic, the other a Jew?

[Medievalist]

A good idea, but it doesn't really address Sheila's mistaken [IMO] idea that there'd be significant difference in the speech patterns of two 25 y.o. contemporaries. Is one going to sound like a Catholic, the other a Jew?

If you're talking about someone who's Jewish and 25 in roughly this time period, she isn't going to sound different if her friend is Catholic. That tells me that the protagonist is not Hassid, who would sound different.

She almost certainly doesn't know Yiddish (or Ladino). She might know a few phrases from her grandparents, and could certainly do a fair imitation. Her cultural medium is going to be the same as that of other people her age; the same music, films, and TV. I base this on contact with Jewish students, with younger Jewish relatives, and an understanding of the mechanisms of language change.

She's going to call someone a lamer not a schmuck, and while her parents may call her boy friend a schmuck, and she'll know exactly what they mean, her idiolect would privilege the slang of her age mates over the dialect and languages of her culture.

[rich]

As much as what you're saying is a good lesson in host culture intergration, Lisa, I can't help but not listen to folks in NYC. She may say "lamer" to an acqaintance, but she'll say "schmuck" when the friend is close, and even "putz"(sp) if the gender calls for it.

True though, the last time I heard anybody say "tukis"(sp?) was about a year ago when I was on Main Street and 72 Avenue in Queens--an Hassidic community. A twentyish looking mother said it to her three-year-old who was acting up.

[Medievalist]

As much as what you're saying is a good lesson in host culture intergration, Lisa, I can't help but not listen to folks in NYC. She may say "lamer" to an acqaintance, but she'll say "schmuck" when the friend is close, and even "putz"(sp) if the gender calls for it.

I agree; I wasn't really being clear.

Schmuck, putz, tuchis/tushy, oy veh--these are largely incorporated into American English. Most are even in the standard dictionaries, and you'll find them used in main stream journalism/opinion pieces and fiction.

The catch in finding them in a dictionary is that Yiddish spelling varies widely, even when it's written in Hebrew. (Pick a spelling and stick to it.)

I was trying to make a distinction between speech-as-Jewish, and casual conversation with non-Jews in a mundane context, and failing abysmally.

[reph]

If you want the spellings, get The Joys of Yiddish, by Leo Rosten.

A woman I know, a political activist aged about 50, complains that people don't get off their tochises and do something for the cause.

That reminds me: complaining. Does your character complain enough? For research, look at Roz Chast's cartoons.

[SheliaRudesill]

Thanks all for the info so far! I have many, many Jewish/Yiddish websites and books for references but all don't agree. I live in North Carolina where I hear "Hey" rather than "Hi," Hello," or "Howdy," and if I was writing a story about a native "Tarheel" I'd be in big trouble having her say, "Howdy." Southerners say, "Hey." I'm trying to avoid mistakes like that.

The examples I used above are words/phrases a 50-something Jewish acquaintence uses. My Jewish characters are educated but I'm sure they would speak certain Jewish/Yiddish words casually to each other, to their parents, boyfriends, siblings and their Catholic friend. I don't think I've ever seen a movie where a Jewish (American born) person didn't say, "Oy vay!" I want each character's dialogue to sound natural and set apart from the other.

I like what everyone has contributed. It's just what I need to hear!

Daughter of Faulkner: I'd love an introduction to an editor who might be interested in reading my novel.

I posted this same message on The Michelle Kwan Forum in Random Chat and got a few interesting suggestions from figure skating fans, too! Today is my birthday and I feel specially blessed by people on these forums who enjoy helping others acheive their goals!

Godspeed, Shalom, Salaam Alaykum,
Shelia

[JuliePgh]

IMO, to make your character always ask a question or complain would be stereotyping, unless she's a natural complainer (and not because she's Jewish). My sugggestion: make your character a NYC person, period. If being Jewish has to come out, it won't necessarily be with Yiddish words that pop up. I have a catholic friend from NYC who could come across as Jewish given how integrated certain Yiddush words are in his vocab. For someone to come across Jewish, think in terms of mindset and actions and not vocab. Think views on politics, family, education, influence of upbringing, where she mayhave to be for a family function or holiday, whether she eats kosher and doesn't make a point of letting on to her peers but quietly abstains from eating the pepperoni pizza, etc.

The older generations will use more yiddush expressions because they grew up with it, and even then, it's usually when they're with other people of similar background. As with any immigrant, you'll often see that with each generation born in the US, the language disappears over time, leaving only a few words and phrases here and there and no real fluency. Then of course, certain words would only be used with certain people. Words like Tuchis (tukis, tusch) are often used, as someone said, by an adult to a child, but not always. It depends on the situation.

If you want to find one or two yiddush words she can use that non-Jews might understand, choose whatever word fits her personality, then use it in context. A lot of yiddish is often hard to translate to english by those who are used to hearing it, until it's put into a sentance/context. Here's a list of common Yiddush words that might help
http://www.koshernosh.com/dictiona.htm

Personally, my advice is to write your character, who happens to be Jewish, and let her background come through naturally. Adding Yiddush sayings and words in greater quantity than the rest of the "typical" NYC populace will make her sound forced. And there is no "correct" spellings for Yiddush words. Just pick whatever spelling best fits the pronounciation in your opinion and stick with it.

In any event, however you proceed, good luck!

[Maryn]

If you live in a community of any size, check out the local Jewish Community Center (JCC). You can loll around in the lobby and eavesdrop, or go one further and ask for a tour.

Every city I've ever lived in has been happy-to-eager to show off the athletic or fitness center to potential members (and a good quarter of the members are not Jewish, because the facilities are often very nice and/or particularly family-friendly).

You'll see many young adults working out who are Jewish, who have left New York for North Carolina, and who would be happy to answer questions--and demonstrate their speech patterns for you.

(Ask if there's a trial period, like a week-long inexpensive or freebie membership, and take advantage if there is. You'll not only be doing your research but getting fitter--and who knows, maybe you'll join?)

Maryn, who has been a member at a couple of JCCs over the years

[reph]

There are some speech patterns associated with American Jews, but as others have said, the speech of a young woman today wouldn't mark her as Jewish. The great wave of immigration happened a few generations ago, and people are acculturated. If you want to show that she's Jewish without saying so, you can have her tell about a visit to her grandparents, who talk differently.

Here's one thing: ironic use of "and" to connect contrasting statements, calling attention to incongruence: "Three years at the big medical school and he doesn't know to put a burned finger in cold water!"

Here's another: putting a statement as a question, to express disbelief or a negative judgment. "You signed a contract with PublishAmerica?"

And there's the use of "So" to begin a narrative...

So I'm walking up Fortieth Street and I see a sign that says...

...or a conversation...

So? (Translation: "How's it going?")

Mnyeh. ("Oh, same as ever.")

Some locutions have passed so thoroughly into English that their origin in Yiddish is unknown to many, like "Get lost," "What's with him?," and "Who needs it?"

[JuliePgh]

One Yiddush word used in the same way as saying "So?" would be "Nu?"
But this is one my mother's generation (in their 60s) uses. I've never used it and would feel awkward doing so, not because I wouldn't know how to use it correctly, but because it doesn't come naturally to me.

[Medievalist]

There's more subtle stuff too; making/buying Challah for the sabbath, lighting/buying candles, looking for Kosher wine (and no, not Mana-what's-it; there's good kosher wine!).

Memories of stuff like finding the hidden matza portion at Passover. Attending/buying a gift for a relative's bar/bat mitzvah. A mezzuza by her door.

[reph]

A mezuzah, you're calling subtle?

[Medievalist]

Yeah, to a non-Jew, or the less than savvy. Or something like this:

Catholic friend: Hey your door bell doesn't work.
Jewish friend: What door bell? I don't have a door bell.
Catholic friend: Yeah you do. I rang it.
Jewish friend: Show me.

[girls exit. Exterior shot. Front of house, door. Catholic Friend stands on her toes and presses firmly on the mezuzah.]

Jewish Friend: You dork! That's a mezuzah, not a doorbell.

Catholic friend: A what?

And yeah, I was there, for the tailend of the conversation.

[JuliePgh]

That's funny, but how embarassing! A character wouldn't have to be that culturally deficient. He/She could say, "hey your mezuzzah's on crooked."

If you're looking for subtle ways to disclose that someone is Jewish, it can be as simple as a name (first or last). Rivka, Sheyna, etc. or even last name, though that's never a definite either, just a possible "hint" towards a person's religion. i.e. last name Kaplan, Cohen, Goldman, Fineberg, Perlman... usually the person is Jewish.

[reph]

I learned recently that Linden is a (German) Jewish surname. It's the English translation of the German word for the linden tree.

I thought mezuzahs were supposed to be hung crooked. At least, I remember seeing ones set at an angle.

To show that a character is or was Catholic, you can have her say "I think that's an adverbial clause, but I used to zone out when the nuns got onto sentence structure."

[JuliePgh]

Yes, mezuzzahs are intentionally at an angle. My point was for the person to believe they should be straight, as if hanging a piece of art, and that the fact that it was crooked was a "mistake" and should be pointed out to "help" the friend.

[Maryn]

How convenient that this thread has already drawn the attention of people who actually know, since once again the Internet has let me down.

I'm writing a very minor character, a Jewish woman in her 70s, who speaks English studded with Yiddish. She is not a nice person, and her views do not reflect those of the 'management,' which would be me.

I need the correct English spelling of schwarz (or is it schwarzen?), which means 'black' and is the equivalent of the derogatory N-word.

[If part of speech matters: Her son will mention seeking the services of a black physician, and the woman will dismiss the doctor with a single word, this one.]

Although I found lots of online sources for all kinds of Yiddish vocabulary and idiom, including some off-color stuff about sex and body functions and some wonderful insults, I didn't find any this overtly politically incorrect.

It makes me wonder, do I even have the right word? Perhaps not.

Any help you can offer is much appreciated--I don't think I have the nerve to walk into the JCC and ask passersby, even though most would know it.

Maryn, too-too demure

[JuliePgh]

The word would be spelled something like schwartze (the "eh" sound is needed at the end) for singular. Put an "as" (sounds like "oz" as in City of Oz) on for plural (schwartzas). (Spelling can be arbitrary, as sounds sometimes differ slightly from one person's yiddush to the next).

It's not quite the equivalent of the N word, but it is used as a classification that is looked down upon, IMO. FYI, the word schwartz literrally means 'black' in German which is the main language base for Yiddish.

I could easiliy picture a woman of older generation and less "sensitivity: saying something like, "What? Is this schwartze the only doctor in town? Couldn't you find a Greenblatt or some other lanzman?"

p.s. lanzman (means "member of the tribe" referring to any other Jew)

Just send questions to my in-box if you want to get more in-depth.

[James D. Macdonald]

Remember the outcry when Jackie Mason called NYC mayor David Dinkins "a fancy schwartze with a moustache"?

(Note: Sometimes spelled "schvartze" ("w" is pronounced like "v").

[Maryn]

Excellent info--and quick, too! Thank you both.

Now, about joining the first half of the novel to the ending...

Maryn

[reph]

Yes, mezuzzahs are intentionally at an angle....
Ah. Thanks for straightening me out.

I need the correct English spelling of schwarz (or is it schwarzen?), which means 'black' and is the equivalent of the derogatory N-word....

Many Yiddish words have several correct English spellings – the spellings are transliterations. Leo Rosten (The Joys of Yiddish, 1968, pp. 376-377) does it this way:

shvartz (adjective)
shvartzer (masculine noun and adjective)
shvartzeh (feminine noun and adjective)...

1. Black.
2. Unfortunate, unhappy, ill-starred....
[and three more definitions of figurative senses]

shvartzer

1. (As adjective, masculine) Black.
1 [no doubt a typo for "2"]. (As noun) Negro.

shvartzeh
1. (As adjective, feminine) Black.
2. (As noun) Negress.

Shvartzer and shvartzeh, to mean Negro man and woman, became "inside" words among Jews–cryptonyms for Negro servants or employees. Since the growth of the civil rights movement, these uses have declined. Many Jews would not, for instance, approve of the retelling now of the following true, well-known, and (to me, at least) disarming story:

A Jewish matron dialed a number and asked, "Hello. Mrs. Weiss?"

"No, ma'am," came a melodious voice. "This is the shvartzeh."

[Sassenach]

I need the correct English spelling of schwarz (or is it schwarzen?), which means 'black' and is the equivalent of the derogatory N-word.


It's a term mainly used now by older people...but it is NOT the equivalent of the n-word. As has been noted, schwarz is black in German. Yiddish is a dialect with Germanic roots.

At most, an equivalent would be calling someone 'colored'.

[Medievalist]

It's a term mainly used now by older people...but it is NOT the equivalent of the n-word. As has been noted, schwarz is black in German. Yiddish is a dialect with Germanic roots.

At most, an equivalent would be calling someone 'colored'.

It's not as rude as schvoogie, which is patently offensive, but it's definitely not accepted in polite conversation, even between two fluent Yiddish speakers.

[dewiniaeth]

I think it would be very easy to overdo the Yiddish phrases. If you use Yiddish phrases in your dialogue, I would be very subtle about it. It probably wouldn't be a good idea to use dialogue as a primary means of distinguishing between your Jewish and other characters.

I have young Jewish friends (not in NYC) who occasionally use Yiddish words with each other. They are very conscious of their use of Yiddish phrases, and would not use them for no particular reason, thinking nothing of it. I think it's probably a Jewish pride thing. For example, one of them uses putz as a silly endearing term for a lover. Their use of such language is very conscious, and not really anything built into their vocabulary. A lot of times it's just for fun.

[JuliePgh]

I have young Jewish friends (not in NYC) who occasionally use Yiddish words with each other. They are very conscious of their use of Yiddish phrases, and would not use them for no particular reason, thinking nothing of it. I think it's probably a Jewish pride thing. For example, one of them uses putz as a silly endearing term for a lover. Their use of such language is very conscious, and not really anything built into their vocabulary. A lot of times it's just for fun.

It's not a pride thing, but a lot of what you said is correct. Jewish people often don't use Yiddush with non-Jews unless it's a word that is so well integrated into English that everyone knows it (i.e. schmuck is one most know). As for putz, this word usually has quite negative meaning, similar to a**hole, though different part of the anatomy. A lot of Yiddush words can be used differently, again because of context and even tone.

Use of Yiddush is conscious, as much as any other word, English or otherwise. You choose your words based on your audience and your intent.

The character she's trying to portray here would probably use yiddush often and naturally despite her audience if she's used to talking only with other Jews and doesn't have much exposure to non-Jews, doesn't care what she says in front of others, and/or is "ignorant" to the extent that she doesn't realize using certain words can be considered offensive.

Still, to this day, I don't believe I've ever personally heard a Jewish person use "shcwartze" in front of a non-Jew (though I'm sure there are plenty). Afterall, every group of people has its share of stupid, ignorant, insensitive, and just plain mean spirited people.

[James D. Macdonald]

There's always Yiddish with Dick and Jane (http://www.vidlit.com/yidlit/).

[JuliePgh]

THAT was funny, Uncle Jim. I'm staring to wonder how many bookmarks you have on your computer considering how you always have the perfect link for the discussion at hand!

[Maryn]

You know, the entire presence of the old lady with the one Yiddish word is complete in about 25 or 30 lines; she will not reappear but is merely someone my protagonist observes very briefly.

Do you think non-writers have any idea how much thought and effort writers put into the simplest little thing that might add color (no pun intended) to a scene? I suspect not.

Or maybe I'm just patting myself on the back when it's all of you who did the work. (What a putz!)

Maryn

[James D. Macdonald]

So these three old ladies are sitting around, and one of them says, "Oy!"
The second one says "Oy veh!"
The third one says, "Oy veh gevalt!"
And the first one says, "But enough about the children...."


===============

Yeah, all writing involves finding the best word. Every word has to justify its presence by revealing character, supporting the theme, or advancing the plot ... or maybe all three.

[SheliaRudesill]

You all continue to amaze me with your responsiveness! Thanks so much.

No, I don't think the majority of readers realize how much thought, effort and research go into the tiniest detail of our work!

"Yiddish With Dick and Jane" is *GREAT*

Someone (above) gave me the website for a Yiddish dictionary. The dictionary turned out to be on a NJ restaurant's website -- I contacted them and they "planned" the Kosher food served at my protagonist's wedding shower!

Where did I get the idea that cheese cake is Jewish? Is it?