Good Idea, Bad Story

Edward_the_Vassal · Dec 25, 2007

This is not my normal account. Consider this to be my witness protection account created to ask a sensitive question. I doubt I'm alone in this.

An acquaintance of mine recently told me of their idea for a novel. I won't lie; I loved the idea. It sent my mind racing, and the entire book seemed to be instantly plotted out in my head.

Later, this person actually gave me their completed book. Yikes. How to put this delicately... this person's book... sucked. And that's fine. I'm not the best writer in the world. None of us are. That's why we're here, right?

The thing is, I loved the idea, but hated the story. Given every opportunity this person took (what I feel) is the exact wrong turn to take. What I want to do is drastically rewrite the book. Rewrite isn't even the right word. I want to re-imagine it from its basic premise onwards. I want my own interpretation of the core. I should stress that I don't wanna rip the story off, I wanna take it in a totally different direction. For instance, in this person's book, the three main characters live happily ever after. In mine, all three would kill each other before the halfway point (and one might very well be resurrected.)

I actually wrote a couple of chapters of this. I was told by someone else that I was stealing the story. That's probably right, but I think I'm just taking the germ of the idea and running with it. If it were a synopsis, the first 3-4 sentences would be the same, then it would radically branch off. After all, Shakespeare stole the plot of most of his stories, but then ran with them. That's what I wanna do.

This all probably sounds silly and borderline egotistical. I mean, if I don't consider the germ of the story to be the hard part, why not come up with my own? Or why not simply retool the beginning until it is fundamentally different...

Well, I wanna write this one. The entire story is laid out before me. As they say, I can hear the symphony in my head.

Now, I could never ask this person to let me reinterpret their vision. It would crush them because it would obviously imply that I didn't like their story and thought I could do better. So, I guess I just have to sit on it. But I really, really like my idea

I guess I'm just posting this to get it off my chest. Also, I wondered, has anyone else been in a similar situation?

Stijn Hommes · Dec 25, 2007

Ideas are recycled all the time. And there is a reason they cannot be copyrighted. Make sure the story is totally inrecognizable to your writer friend and you're good to go.

Go ahead and reinterpret away.

What did this friend ask you to do with their finished manuscript? If they asked you to critique it, you could give them some well-phrased tips on things they could improve. As long as you don't tell them everything needs fixing, there's no problem.

triceretops · Dec 25, 2007

It's correct that ideas are like molecules in the air---you can't take a step without running into them. Make it your own, improve it, and take it to its full potential. I do admit that it is a sticky wicket you're in. However, the liklihood that this other person might get this published sounds pretty nil. the idea deserves a masters treatment. I would go ahead with the project. If this is truly a friend, and they find out that you've started your own version, then I would think they would be (or should be) thrilled for you. However, it could also be your worst nightmare, as far as the friendship angle.

The only thing you might ask them/her is if they wouldn't mind you doing your own version of this story, just to kick it around the block.

Tri

Voyager · Dec 25, 2007

The fact that you have to hide your identity and ask this in a forum rather than talk directly to this "acquaintance," speaks volumes in itself. Frankly, that you even have to ask this question at all makes me sad for you and a little bit sick to my stomach.

dpaterso · Dec 25, 2007

What you're describing sounds like out-and-out property theft. Of course I could be wrong.

Me, I'd explain to the author that I personally didn't like his novel for the following reasons -- list the things he did wrong -- and tell him how I'd redo them, if it were my material, to make a great novel.

Then I'd go write my own novel in a different setting, maybe even a different sub-genre, with my own characters and plot points, taking it as far away from the original as possible. So far away that if you were to let the author read your novel, he wouldn't even recognize it.

But that's just me.

-Derek

kristie911 · Dec 25, 2007

Voyager said:
The fact that you have to hide your identity and ask this in a forum rather than talk directly to this "acquaintance," speaks volumes in itself.

I agree. You hide your identity here which tells me you feel at least a little bit bad for considering it in the first place. That should give you your answer.

I think you know it's a bad idea but you're hoping enough people will say "go ahead" so you can do it without guilt.

My advice...either change it to the point that it's completely unrecognizable to your friend or leave it alone.

LaceWing · Dec 25, 2007

I'm sympathetic to Derek's points, but suspect your input would be out-of-tune with the other author's vision. Query the intent before trying to help; maybe you're misreading in the first place. Understandable when you get excited about an idea, but not a good stance for helping out.

If you can re-imagine it so thoroughly as to be able to whole-heartedly dedicate it to the other writer, you'd be good to go, yes?

If the other writer were established, you'd be able to dialog with him/her and maybe get a challenge going, in the spirit of philosophical differences. Doesn't sound like that's likely in this case. (Because, for one thing, you think everything is wrong about this other ms, and are very insistent about your own ideas.)

Might you consider offering co-authorship. Like, "concept by x, written by you" -- that sounds good to me; I know I've seen it done. And, make the offer in writing, not in person, I think. If you're established, you could maybe sell the idea.

Oh, wait. An evil genie just entered my mind. Pass out the idea for a whole bunch of people to see. It'll get out all over the web and several others will jump on it. You're then in the same boat as the originator and won't feel so bad if someone does it better than you.

FYI: Charles Palliser's Betrayals is focused on the issues raised here, and it's a pretty good read. If I were in this pickle, I'd be reading it again, with a red pen in hand.

Devil Ledbetter · Dec 25, 2007

Voyager said:
The fact that you have to hide your identity and ask this in a forum rather than talk directly to this "acquaintance," speaks volumes in itself.

Yep, that should tell you everything you need to know.

HeronW · Dec 25, 2007

What is the gist of the idea? In all likelihood it's a common thing that was done poorly. We've all seen movies that sucked and could have been redone to make a stirring film, lots of books have been published that are dreck when in other hands they could have been awesome.

Feeling bad is natural, this is a 'story' someone you know did, whether good or bad. Condemning you for it is easy but certainly not realistic or true to ourselves, after all, we all get ideas from our family, friends, coworkers, etc, and rarely say, 'Hey, I put you in my book' (doesn't matter as what, under what name, in what situation).

Is it theft to take the basic idea which is not original to begin with and rework it? No. How many versions are there of Romeo and Juliet? That one goes back to 10BC, Ovid's Metamorphosis: Pyramis and Thisbe are forbidden to associate, so they whisper through a chink in the wall their fathers have built to separate their houses. They promise to meet outside the city walls and thence to run away. Thisbe arrives first and, frightened by a lioness fresh from a kill, Thisbe runs to a cave, dropping her veil behind her. Pyramis finds the veil bloodied by the lioness, and concluding that Thisbe has been devoured, stabs himself. Thisbe returns from the cave, finds the dying Pyramis, and, distraught, falls on his sword. They die in each other's arms. Then there's West Side Story, and on and on.

Ideas break down to two or three basic themes: MC vs another segue into MC vs the world, or MC vs himself. In horror it's known as the monster outside or the monster inside.

None of us live in a vacuum. We've all been influenced by music, TV, the web, video games, books, etc.

Originality is based on origins and since no one living has ever written anything TRULY original, it comes down to what do you do with the treatment you're going to give that idea.

ORION · Dec 25, 2007

Ideas are plentiful. There is no need to use someone else's.
Some premises are so intriguing that we all say "why didn't we think of this" and are so unique we itch to do the treatment ourselves.
If we see some anonymous person blathering online to God and everybody about a great idea they want to write- it's fair game. When it's a friend who has asked you for help -- it's not.
When asked to critique someone's work we put ourselves in a different position of trust. All of us are influenced by the work of others to some degree -
I would tell your friend - this is a FABULOUS premise and be honest with them about the strength and weakness of their treatment. You can say you would love to do it another way and what you would do.
But.
It is THEIR story.
As for me?
If a friend had read my draft of Lottery and then turned around and wrote a story about a mentally challenged person winning the lottery because they felt my treatment was inferior? I'd feel betrayed. Novels go through much transformation and get better and better from draft to draft if a writer works at them - an honest critique would help them get even better. Saying you will be honest and withholding that honesty is unfair and underhanded.
All this being said- There are some things that provide inspiration- it would not be a problem if my author/writer friends has a character who had mental challenges or had a subplot that involved a lottery- those things are fair game for anyone.
I agree with those who say.
"If you have to ask the question on this board then you know the answer."
Is what you are thinking of doing illegal? No of course not.
Is is ethical? In my opinion no it's not.

If they

WendyNYC · Dec 25, 2007

Edward_the_Vassal said:
An acquaintance of mine recently told me of their idea for a novel. I won't lie; I loved the idea. It sent my mind racing, and the entire book seemed to be instantly plotted out in my head.

I could be wrong, but it sounds like you were primed to steal this idea from the get-go, and that this person shouldn't have chosen you as a beta reader.

This person was trusting you with their intellectual property. I think that if you feel you must write and market your version, you should at the very least wait until this person tries (and maybe fails) to do it first.

a_sharp · Dec 25, 2007

I agree with the others that this is a question of ethics.

Had your friend done a decent job of writing you probably wouldn't be considering it for yourself and wouldn't have posted here. But since his/her interpretation appears to be terribly weak, you feel somewhat justified in taking the idea for yourself. I sympathize with your desire to do the idea justice.

However, the facts are simple. You were entrusted with the idea, your friend asked for your judgment. Leave it at that, be truthful about your critique, offer suggestions if you feel so inclined. Then realize that your next story idea will have to be your own.

Will Lavender · Dec 25, 2007

I think it's a great beginning for a thriller. Guy writes book, gives book to friend, friend steals idea, guy finds out about theft and becomes angry, very angry...

Can I borrow it from you?

Seriously, what Voyager said. If you know what you're doing isn't completely ethical, then I wouldn't do it. But that's just me.

donroc · Dec 25, 2007

That is classic Hollywood. Theft is a way of life.

www.donaldmichaelplatt.com

preyer · Dec 25, 2007

right, it's a breach of trust. if you take the idea and use it as your own, then the person finds out about it, what are the chances they'll ever trust someone with their idea again? pretty slim, i'd say, and in that you could very much hinder their progress as a writer.

when i critiqued, often there were ideas that i thought were great and would have loved to retool the otherwise average storyline. a newish writer offers a great set-up and proceeds directly towards making it as milquetoast as possible. it's frustrating because you know the story will never be what it could be in a noob's hands, that when this project fails they'll move on and trunk what had potential.

such is life. if you want to use their idea that bad, tell them. as mentioned, approach it with the idea of 'written by, premise by.' if they say no, drop it and wait for your own idea to excite you. there's an ocean of difference between 'inspired by' and stealing the idea and just reworking enough of it to say it's yours. well, it's not yours, not really. plenty of people have asked me, 'that's a great idea, can i have that since you're not going to do anything with it?' and i'd say have fun with it. still, there are certain things i don't want to give away. if i knew someone had used the idea without permission, i'd be upset with that person. and knowing me i'd track them down on every website they've been to and explain to everyone what a thief they were. that's me, i'm a vindictive bastard that way.

if you can't proceed guilt-free, don't do it.

CheshireCat · Dec 25, 2007

IMO, the ethical dilemma stems, not from wanting to run with your own version of someone else's idea (which, yes, is done all the time), but from the fact that the other writer trusted you to read and evaluate his work.

If you two had been brainstorming, one of you came up with the idea, and it was mutually decided that you'd both run with it and see what you came up with, well, that would be different. Odds are good that you would have come up with radically different takes on the idea (some friends and I actually did this, and the results were rather remarkable).

But. That isn't what happened. The other writer came up with the idea and wrote it. He then gave it to you for your evaluation. The fact that you believe the result sucks is your opinion, undoubtedly colored by your own desire to "do justice" to the idea, and may well be wrong.

Not that it matters whether his work sucks or not. It's your ethics we're talking about.

Unless you feel you can sit down with the other author and ask permission to attempt (you may fail too, you know) your own version of his idea -- which, by the way, could open up a whole new can of worms since people outside the industry perceive the value of ideas as greater than the work involved in turning those ideas into marketable work -- then file the idea under "things I wish I'd come up with first" and move on.

IMO.

James D. Macdonald · Dec 25, 2007

All art is in dialog with all other art.

Sophia · Dec 25, 2007

I'm really, really glad I've never been in this situation. That's quite a temptation to put in front of a writer, I think.

OP, perhaps you could look at your friend's idea in detail and try to identify one particular element that really catches your imagination. It might not be the whole idea, but one aspect that is strongest for you, and if you then tell your friend that you like that one aspect, they might be more inclined to let you run with it.

Even though the idea sparked out pretty much the whole novel for you, it might be that once you identify that core element, you can improve on it even more. I'm thinking that if just hearing the idea makes you imagine a whole novel, then it might be that it isn't actually original enough for publication. By thinking about it more, and making it completely your own, you could be doing yourself a bigger favour.

ardifiore · Dec 25, 2007

Haha, see now I'm very interested in what the idea actually 'is', because there's truth to the saying that every story has already been told. I'm wondering if the premise or 'high concept' can be subtly worked into your own version of the story.

There's also the question of whether or not you both are writers. Are you both published authors? Or, is this acquaintance just a friend who dabbles in writing?

Here's my opinion: I'm ALWAYS thinking of ideas and premises, and have plenty of Word documents that are just ideas and rough outlines for novels or stories that I'd eventually like to write. Jot all of your ideas down but I wouldn't necessarily write this right away. Your friend is passionate about their story right now, so give them time to enjoy it. If the book isn't really anything fantastic then it probably won't sell, and in time they'll come up with a new idea that they think is better and will go off to write that.

At this time, you'll be able to revisit all of your thoughts that you jotted down on this story/idea. If you've continued to write over this time period (hey, it might even be just a single year) then you'll only be able to write the story BETTER than you will now.

If you feel like some higher force is demanding you to write this novel, then there's nothing anyone can do to stop you, but I'm not so sure that time is always of the essence. I have a great story that I want to tell someday, but I'd like to put a lot more novels under my belt before I write it. If anything, to gain more experience so that the readers will be able to experience a much better novel than whatever I'm presently capable of.

I really hope this helps!

Zelenka · Dec 25, 2007

Voyager said:
The fact that you have to hide your identity and ask this in a forum rather than talk directly to this "acquaintance," speaks volumes in itself. Frankly, that you even have to ask this question at all makes me sad for you and a little bit sick to my stomach.

Agreed. Legally, it may not be an issue to use someone else's idea in your own way, but the fact that this is an acquaintance's idea, and that person asked for help and advice, it would seem like a breach of trust to me to then take that idea as your own.

Cath · Dec 25, 2007

Have you thought about approaching this other person and asking to co-write the story with them? Their idea, your words - shared kudos.

Elodie-Caroline · Dec 25, 2007

Without reading anyone else's replies first; I think that what you want to do is disgusting to say the least! Why don't you use your own brain and ideas, instead of ripping someone else's off? No wonder you are using an alias name. What you want to do is despicable and I hope karma pays you back if you do stoop to stealing other people's work, because that is precisely what you are doing.
Call yourself this person's friend? With friends like you, who needs enemies.

Elodie

Ravenlocks · Dec 25, 2007

I've been in this situation once or twice. A friend is currently working on a concept I would LOVE to steal (and I've told him so). My advice would be to write detailed feedback indicating everything you think they got wrong. Tell them what your take would have been. But make sure to stress that this is all your opinion.

As for writing your own take, nope, that you can't do. Your friend came up with the concept, and it's not ethical for you to steal it. It's easy to say ideas are stolen all the time (whether that's actually true or not is debatable). Hey, cars are stolen all the time too, but that doesn't make it right.

ardifiore said:
There's also the question of whether or not you both are writers. Are you both published authors? Or, is this acquaintance just a friend who dabbles in writing?

Who is qualified to say the friend who "dabbles in writing" isn't a writer? This person completed an entire novel. Is it okay to steal from writers who haven't been published, because they're not really writers, they just "dabble"?

lfraser · Dec 25, 2007

I believe that it would be a betrayal of trust to use your friend's idea. But you already know that, I think. Otherwise you wouldn't have used an alias.

Ask yourself how you'd feel if the tables were turned.

Edward_the_Vassal · Dec 25, 2007

Now, I could never ask this person to let me reinterpret their vision. It would crush them because it would obviously imply that I didn't like their story and thought I could do better. So, I guess I just have to sit on it. But I really, really like my idea

I guess I'm just posting this to get it off my chest. Also, I wondered, has anyone else been in a similar situation?

Easy on the condemnation folks!

There's not an ethical dilemma here! I didn't say I WAS stealing it. Obviously if I wanted to re-imagine this story, I'd have ask for this person's permission to do a riff on their idea. I wouldn't go behind their back. Of course that would be a betrayal of trust. And like I said, I'd hurt their feelings by telling them, which I don't want to do. So nothing will ever come of any of this. Come on, people! You're writers! Pay attention to what I wrote.

Having a great story that you can't write gets under your skin. I simply needed to get the frustration off my chest. I figured some people here would understand. I critiqued this person's story and told them what I liked and didn't like. But my storyline and theirs are just wholly and fundamentally different. It's not something I could critique. This was venting.

Also I just wondered if anyone else had a similar thing happen to them where you see the greater themes at play and the unrealized potential?

"Hey, how about, instead of the Capulet's and Montague's going into counseling to amicably work through their differences, what if the boy and the girl die! No? O.K. The family counseling works too."

(I used a different account not because I felt guilty, but because I didn't want to hurt this person's feelings by saying they blew it.)

Good Idea, Bad Story

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