Great article in the New Yorker about Raymond Carver

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Prawn

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There is a great article in this week's New Yorker about Raymond Carver and his editor. Carver's brilliance was enhanced by his editor, and it even had a page of Carver's text with the editor's marking. Late in his career, Carver rejected the editor's help. Interesting article.
 

Will Lavender

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Can't wait to read it. Mine hasn't arrived yet.

OT, but did you happen to catch Malcolm Gladwell's article on serial killer profiling a few weeks back? One of the most interesting I've ever read in the magazine.
 

nevada

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It's funny that you should mention Raymond Carver. William Haskins just posted a link to an interview with Andrew Wylie, where he talks about Carver and his editor and the release of the stories as Carver wrote them before they were "enhanced" by the editor. It's a fascinating interview, long, about agenting and the publishing world. Well worth reading.

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86657
 

Dustry Joe

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Carver really drives me nuts. I'm well used to people with nothing going for them being put forth as geniuses (Pollack, Warhol, Ginsberg) and have no trouble writing them off despite all the hype.

And I'm comfortable with the fact there are geniuses who I just don't appreciate, but might learn to if I wanted to study up. (Bach, for instance)

But Carver? I look at most of his stories and just ask myself, "What the hel is the point of reading this?" Much less writing it. But then, I sort of peer at it sideways and go, "Hmmm, maybe there's something in the shadow there, hard to say."

Basically I think he's greatly over-rated, like Beckett. But something about a few of the stories gives me a slight hesitation in writing him off.
 

Will Lavender

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Carver really drives me nuts. I'm well used to people with nothing going for them being put forth as geniuses (Pollack, Warhol, Ginsberg) and have no trouble writing them off despite all the hype.

And I'm comfortable with the fact there are geniuses who I just don't appreciate, but might learn to if I wanted to study up. (Bach, for instance)

But Carver? I look at most of his stories and just ask myself, "What the hel is the point of reading this?" Much less writing it. But then, I sort of peer at it sideways and go, "Hmmm, maybe there's something in the shadow there, hard to say."

Basically I think he's greatly over-rated, like Beckett. But something about a few of the stories gives me a slight hesitation in writing him off.

Different strokes, I guess.

IMO, Carver is the finest American practicioner of the short story form. Better than Hemingway. Better than Poe. Better than Grace Paley. Better than Cheever.
 
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Will Lavender

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I had Alice Munro on that list, but she's Canadian.

Very fine writer, though. But she's no Carver.
 

Dustry Joe

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Better than Hemingway.
THAT'S the comparison. Holy cow. I don't see much there to get excited about. Lots of the stuff isn't even really stories.
 

blacbird

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IMO, Carver is the finest American practicioner of the short story form. Better than Hemingway. Better than Poe. Better than Grace Paley. Better than Cheever.

I'm not much into so-and-so is "better than X" in judging great writers, beyond the level of "Faulkner is better than Robert Ludlum." But:

I might be the only person frequenting this board who actually knew Raymond Carver, in the sense of taking a class from him and going out and drinking beer with him a few times. He was a charming and funny guy. He was clearly a dedicated crafter of fiction. He also pushed his urge to "minimalize" too far, IMO, in a substantial number of his stories. He was always trying to find out how little he could do, and still get away with, rather than trying to discover how much he could do. As a result, we have, what, five or six slim collections of stories, the best of them wonderful, the lesser of them skeletal and unsatisfying. He never attempted a novel, as far as I know. I wind up now having the feeling that he wanted badly to be the 20th Century's Maupassant or Chekhov, without having to be as prolific as they were. Having met him, taken a class from him (he was a terrible, virtually useless instructor, by the way), drunk beer with him (he was terrific at that), I'm now sad both that he died too soon, and that he didn't try harder to take his extraordinary ability to a higher level.

caw
 

Will Lavender

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I'm not much into so-and-so is "better than X" in judging great writers, beyond the level of "Faulkner is better than Robert Ludlum." But:

I might be the only person frequenting this board who actually knew Raymond Carver, in the sense of taking a class from him and going out and drinking beer with him a few times. He was a charming and funny guy. He was clearly a dedicated crafter of fiction. He also pushed his urge to "minimalize" too far, IMO, in a substantial number of his stories. He was always trying to find out how little he could do, and still get away with, rather than trying to discover how much he could do. As a result, we have, what, five or six slim collections of stories, the best of them wonderful, the lesser of them skeletal and unsatisfying. He never attempted a novel, as far as I know. I wind up now having the feeling that he wanted badly to be the 20th Century's Maupassant or Chekhov, without having to be as prolific as they were. Having met him, taken a class from him (he was a terrible, virtually useless instructor, by the way), drunk beer with him (he was terrific at that), I'm now sad both that he died too soon, and that he didn't try harder to take his extraordinary ability to a higher level.

caw

Interesting take.

I've never seen Carver as a minimalist in the way that, say, Lydia Davis is a minimalist. I don't think the fact that he never wrote a novel should become fodder for criticism. Clearly, he was interested in the average, in the everyday, those mundane atrocities and all that. Yet I think if you read Where I'm Calling From, you'll find stories there ("Nobody Said Anything," "What We Talk About When We Talk About Love," "Are These Actual Miles?," "So Much Water So Close to Home," "Chef's House," "Cathedral," etc.) that are immense in what they suggest about the human condition.

And I think that's the thing, and it's why I bristle when people refer to Carver as a minimalist (or, at worst, scoff at his achievements, which is obviously NOT what you're doing in your post): those stories contained multitudes because they were painfully, terrifically, exactingly right. What he left out was as important as what he put in. There's a whole gestural universe in Carver; you can read one of his stories and be amazed at the world he created under the surface of his characters' actions.

I do not think that Robert Altman got it right. When I first saw Short Cuts, I was underwhelmed. And I think this is an important criticism. When we talk about Carver, we are talking about form. We're not talking about the man's sordid life, we're not talking about his works compared to the great novels of the 20th century; no, we're talking about the short story. And I think he was brilliant at crafting stories, some large and some small, and his mark on what is being written now, forty years later, is as indelible as any other American writer who ever lived.
 

Shadow_Ferret

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I tried, oh how I tried, to like Carver all through my college years. Every literature class I took held him up as the be-all and end-all of short stories at the time. But I couldn't. As much as he's revered among acadamia, I think he just isn't for the common man. Geniuses just aren't my cup of tea.
 

paprikapink

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Blacbird, you might find the New Yorker article particularly interesting. It seemed to me to imply that it was Lish, the editor, who pushed Carver so far toward minimalism. The correspondence from Carver to Lish is about Carver feeling that he just can't express himself so sparsely anymore.

I think the reason there are two recent articles about this is because Carver's wife has recently republished one of Carver's books with his original versions of the stories, before Lish did his bit on them.
 
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