Too downmarket?

heyjude · Dec 20, 2007

Okay, this has been bugging me for months now. I was told by someone I really admire that my "voice" is way too downmarket for the average reader to enjoy. This is from someone who writes at the upper end of literary, btw. I mentioned some of the bestsellers, whose voices could also be said to be downmarket, but the person had never read them.

So my question: is there such a thing as too downmarket (or to put it another way, can the language be too simple, too conversational) for the average adult reader?

Thanks for your input!

seun · Dec 20, 2007

Sounds like this person may just have their head stuck up their arse.

Bubastes · Dec 20, 2007

seun said:
Sounds like this person may just have their head stuck up their arse.

Ditto.

cletus · Dec 20, 2007

I was thinking of a long drawn out reply, but seun summed it up perfectly.

maestrowork · Dec 20, 2007

What Mr. seun said so eloquently.

Prawn · Dec 20, 2007

seun said:
Sounds like this person may just have their head stuck up their arse.

I am sorry, I don't speak downmarket. Could someone rephrase this?

seun · Dec 20, 2007

Prawn said:
I am sorry, I don't speak downmarket. Could someone rephrase this?

One gains the distinct impression that the gentleman's acquaintaince has placed his head in the vicinity of his posterior.

maestrowork · Dec 20, 2007

Prawn said:
I am sorry, I don't speak downmarket. Could someone rephrase this?

It would have the utter appearance that this individual may have an air of superiority and a sense of ivory tower entitlement that they could not comprehend the world is bigger than what they can observe from the small opening of his arse.

Will Lavender · Dec 20, 2007

I've never heard the term "downmarket."

If downmarket means plain, straight writing, then it seems to me that the bestseller lists are packed with downmarket lit. You will see very, very few novels on any American list written in literary styles. I'm not saying that's a good or a bad thing, it's just the way it is.

So this means the very term "downmarket" is an oxymoron. Downmarket is essentially upmarket.

maestrowork · Dec 20, 2007

You can tell the person's attitude and world view by the word he chooses. Downmarket. That's a pretentious word right there.

Bubastes · Dec 20, 2007

Rectal-cranial inversion, anyone?

WendyNYC · Dec 20, 2007

If this person writes at the upper end of literary, he probably is out of touch with what the "average" reader enjoys. And even so, what a schmucky thing to say. "Downmarket." Sheesh!

cletus · Dec 20, 2007

WendyNYC said:
If this person writes at the upper end of literary, he probably is out of touch with what the "average" reader enjoys. And even so, what a schmucky thing to say. "Downmarket." Sheesh!

True. And, as has been pointed out, he has his head up his arse.

johnzakour · Dec 20, 2007

I have no idea what downmarket means. Is it like being downwind?

Unless that person was a big publisher or agent I wouldn't worry about it much. Heck, even if they were a big publisher or agent I wouldn't worry about it too much. After all one person's downmarket can be another's upmarket or upwind for all I know....

(Word tells me Downmarket isn't even a word...so if Bill Gates says it's a not word I really wouldn't worry.)

Jz (a real downmarket kind of guy -- I guess)

Bubastes · Dec 20, 2007

So, has this "upper end of literary" writer ever had anything published? Not that it would change my opinion. I'm just curious.

"Downmarket." ::eyeroll::

maestrowork · Dec 20, 2007

I doubt that John Updike would be telling JK Rowling: "You're too downmarket."

a_sharp · Dec 20, 2007

Wait a minute, wait a minute.

Let's take a music analog. Most people, "the market", like pop music. A smaller portion of people like jazz because it's more complex, appeals to their personal musical development. Others like classical pieces, which we used to call "long-hair" music. I, for one, was raised on pop, developed an affection for jazz, and learned about classical in a college course and developed an appreciation for it. I like certain classical compositions, but I still groove on jazz. Does that make my friend who listens only to classical a snob?

The way the OP was put, the term "downmarket" implies snobbery. But if you develop an appreciation for literary turns of phrases and you enjoy savoring word use by an accomplished writer, reading other stuff might pale. It's too ordinary for your developed reading eye, so you cleave to lit to the exclusion of popular markets.

It's a perspective from which one views complexity as high and simplicity is low or average. If that offends your sensibilities, so be it. There are other views in this world.

a_sharp · Dec 20, 2007

By the way, I write for downmarket too.

maestrowork · Dec 20, 2007

If your friend only listens to Classical music and thinks everything else is beneath him and "downmarket" then yes, he's a snob.

ORION · Dec 20, 2007

um...and you are listening to this person, why?
Are they published?
If not, I wouldn't listen to them.
If they tell you specifics like your grammar sucks or syntax is awkward or spelling is chaotic...I would listen to that...but downmarket?
If you "write for the masses" as this person seems to imply - it means your writing has to have clarity and your novel some sort of a plot...
What's wrong with that?

Will Lavender · Dec 20, 2007

a_sharp said:
Wait a minute, wait a minute.

Let's take a music analog. Most people, "the market", like pop music. A smaller portion of people like jazz because it's more complex, appeals to their personal musical development. Others like classical pieces, which we used to call "long-hair" music. I, for one, was raised on pop, developed an affection for jazz, and learned about classical in a college course and developed an appreciation for it. I like certain classical compositions, but I still groove on jazz. Does that make my friend who listens only to classical a snob?

The way the OP was put, the term "downmarket" implies snobbery. But if you develop an appreciation for literary turns of phrases and you enjoy savoring word use by an accomplished writer, reading other stuff might pale. It's too ordinary for your developed reading eye, so you cleave to lit to the exclusion of popular markets.

It's a perspective from which one views complexity as high and simplicity is low or average. If that offends your sensibilities, so be it. There are other views in this world.

Yeah, but it's the very term: downmarket.

It doesn't necessarily suggest that the person has an affinity for literary novels or styles; no, it suggests that the person thinks writing other than literary work is unworthy.

Down = bad. Crude. Lacking. Poor.

cletus · Dec 20, 2007

maestrowork said:
If your friend only listens to Classical music and thinks everything else is beneath him and "downmarket" then yes, he's a snob.

Or if they only listen to Classical music and tell you your punk band is too downmarket for anybody to be interested in they likely have their head up their arse.

Dustry Joe · Dec 20, 2007

I have a hard time with the concept of a "voice" being "downmarket". This is why I hate writing jargon. One of the reasons studying writing can be harmful.

heyjude · Dec 20, 2007

Just logged back in and suddenly I'm feeling much better. Thank you all.

Yes, this person is published. And yes, maestrowork, he listens almost exclusively to classic music. He thinks my country music pretty much says it all about me... Hah. And yet I've learned an immense amount from him.

Thanks everyone for the input. It's so nice to have a place to come to feel better, to get other opinions. I appreciate you all so much!

Bubastes · Dec 20, 2007

I don't think I'll ever understand why people feel the need to diss other genres. Following the music example, I was raised on classical, love rock/pop/electronica/indie music, and am learning to appreciate jazz, punk, and modern classical music. When I was a teenager heavily involved in classical music training, all of the kids around me loved classical AND whatever was popular in the 1980s. A preference for a particular genre only means that, uh, you prefer that genre. I certainly wouldn't consider it a test of one's character.

I read and write across the spectrum -- I submit to the Trues ("downmarket") and Glimmer Train ("upmarket"), so that pretty much illustrates my approach to things.

Too downmarket?

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