Published authors: when do you dispense with the betas?

Prawn · Dec 17, 2007

I am planning on giving a polished, shiny draft of my second novel to my betas in the next few weeks, and let me tell you it is much stronger than the beta draft of my first novel. I have learned a lot. Do any of you published authors feel you have learned your craft so well that you don't need beta readers anymore? I am not talking your agent or editor, who will no doubt have suggestions, I am talking beta readers.

Any one out there confidently beta-less?

swvaughn · Dec 17, 2007

I'm not published, but I do have a great agent who beats me mercilessly - er, that is, offers lots of helpful revision suggestions for my manuscripts. I guess I don't "need" betas, but I still have a few people I trust (only one of whom is a writer) to tell me when I have written something completely stupid plot- or character-wise that should be changed.

Sadly, my agent always finds a few more completely stupid things that were missed the first five times. But that's why I'm so glad to have her.

johnzakour · Dec 17, 2007

From the beginning. I just never felt comfortable using them. My stories have always been "my stories" so I have a pretty good idea what I want to do with them. I always felt beta's would slow me down. Now that I'm on 4 different deadlines I can't afford to be slowed down -- especially since I am easily distracted.

They're your books you have to write what you feel comfortable with. I've said it once and I'll say it again, write what you like and readers will follow.

Standard Disclaimer: I have nothing against beta readers, I am sure they work for some people.

Claudia Gray · Dec 17, 2007

I haven't stopped using betas yet, and I honestly don't think I ever will. An alternate perspective is a good thing.

Joe Moore · Dec 17, 2007

My beta readers have saved my butt a number of times. They are a valuable part of my writing process.

johnzakour · Dec 17, 2007

I will note that I have used coauthors before which does give that alternative perspective.

I really have mixed feelings on the subject, after all one of my masters degrees is in human behavior where they teach you to work well with others and how to cooperate. The thing is sometimes I feel people get too reliant on the opinions of others.

Like I said, I am sure beta readers work for some. I just think in my case they would "gum up the process."

job · Dec 17, 2007

There's a large contingent of authors who use beta readers right through their careers. You see, sometimes, in the acks, a thank you to beta readers or brainstormers.

A surprising number of the 'betas' are other professionals.

I have a very fine beta. Precise and generous and knowledgeable. Several times she's suggested strengthening some section of the story, and she's been right. She also catches typos -- though that's not her job. She just can't help it.

maestrowork · Dec 17, 2007

I like having betas. They serve as test audience before I let agents and publishers see it. If something is wrong, I want to catch it before it goes out. I may be a good writer, but I'm not infallible.

Danthia · Dec 17, 2007

I'm not published (yet) but I just signed with an agent and she said get a good critique group (which I have) in our early conversations about what to expect from each other. I think having folks you can bounce ideas off of and comment on your work at any stage is a good thing and you'll probably always want them. Even the bestselling authors out there talk about how their spouse or close friend is their beta reader (if not in those terms).

Writing isn't like a skill where once you "get" it you never need any advice. Every story is new and every story could use someone who doesn't know every detail by heart. It's impossible for a writer to look at their own work and catch every thing that doesn't quite track.

NeuroFizz · Dec 17, 2007

I have trusted betas, and I'll always run my stories by them. One not only reads my stories, she has given me a couple of awsome babies.

Prawn · Dec 17, 2007

NeuroFizz said:
I have trusted betas, and I'll always run my stories by them. One not only reads my stories, she has given me a couple of awsome babies.

Would she consider working with another author?

Gillhoughly · Dec 17, 2007

Published authors: when do you dispense with the betas?

If you're really, really smart--NEVER.

Seriously, n-e-v-e-r.

I ran my 23nd novel by my beta (another pro) before sending it off to my agent and got some extremely necessary feedback to fix some fatal flaws.

When you get to the point where you are absolutely certain that your writing is sheer perfection and can't possibly be improved, then change your name to Anne Rice and start being Jesus's Holy Ghost-writer.
.

NeuroFizz · Dec 17, 2007

Prawn said:
Would she consider working with another author?

I doubt she'd be as ruthless with someone she doesn't know intimately, both in terms of reading and making babies.

James D. Macdonald · Dec 17, 2007

Published authors: when do you dispense with the betas?

Never.

badducky · Dec 17, 2007

Let me add my voice to the chorus:

NEVER.

Redhedd · Dec 17, 2007

David Brin says that he uses up to 30 betas per book. And if any of them fail to point out flaws or issues, he doesn't send the next book to them and finds someone else.

johnzakour · Dec 17, 2007

I guess it kind of depends on how you define betas. I've been known to send material to Julie Czerneda and say, "Julie does this work?" In the early 90s when I was developing Plutonium Blonde I actually emailed it to, Douglas Adams and said, "does this suck?"

I just don't consider them beta readers. I just think (or in Douglas's case thought :-( )of them as e-buddies who give me useful feedback.

Also since I'm already signed for my next 4-5 books I'm not above running the text by my publishers and using them as psuedo-super-beta (omega?) readers.

I may very well have my semantics all mixed up. (I'm not all that bright...)

Everybody is different that's why bookstores are so big.

Cassidy · Dec 17, 2007

I agree with the NEVER folks, for me anyway. Sometimes their feedback doesn't lead to a lot of changes, but often they catch inconsistencies that I've missed, ask questions which help me further develop some aspect of the story, or point out something that I was too close to see. Plus even after having five books accepted, I'd be nervous to let my editor see something that I hadn't got any feedback on... not that I don't trust my own opinion, but I know that usually each revision strengthens the manuscript and part of that revision process, for me, involves getting input from smart and thoughtful readers.

Prawn · Dec 18, 2007

For me it is getting complicated. I had about ten betas for book one, and I am going to give them book two.

But, I also have found five new betas to read book two because it is a sequel, and I want to make sure it hangs together on its own, that there is the right amount of backstory, etc.

I thought maybe I was going overboard with fifteen betas, but I am glad to find out that I am not!

Philip64 · Dec 18, 2007

When to stop the readings...

In theory there is no limit to the amount of useful information you can get from other people's readings.

However, the reality is that there is only so much useful work you can do on a book. There comes a point when you can no longer see it clearly, or add to it in a fresh or creative way. You will, in the end, simply get bored, which is dangerous because in that state you may start cutting and cutting, in the process losing much of what makes your work unique.

There is no fixed point when this happens. But I usually find that two rounds of readings is about all I can usefully use. After that I only make significant changes if I sense that the publisher really wants them.

As a PS I would add that in my opinion, you grow and develop as a writer by constantly tackling new material, not by endlessly re-working or polishing existing material. The latter is important, but when I hear about writers on their 9th draft, I wonder if they haven't lost their way.

CheshireCat · Dec 18, 2007

Prawn said:
I am planning on giving a polished, shiny draft of my second novel to my betas in the next few weeks, and let me tell you it is much stronger than the beta draft of my first novel. I have learned a lot. Do any of you published authors feel you have learned your craft so well that you don't need beta readers anymore? I am not talking your agent or editor, who will no doubt have suggestions, I am talking beta readers.

Any one out there confidently beta-less?

I've always been beta-less. Not bragging; when I started out it just wasn't done. Or, if it was, I didn't know it. The first readers to see my stuff were always agent and editors.

CheshireCat · Dec 18, 2007

johnzakour said:
I will note that I have used coauthors before which does give that alternative perspective.

I really have mixed feelings on the subject, after all one of my masters degrees is in human behavior where they teach you to work well with others and how to cooperate. The thing is sometimes I feel people get too reliant on the opinions of others.

Like I said, I am sure beta readers work for some. I just think in my case they would "gum up the process."

Ditto.

Whatever works for you works for you.

Betas were just never part of my process.

David I · Dec 18, 2007

I like my beta readers and have had useful feedback.

But I have to confess that one reason I use them is that I never talk about my work while in progress, so I want to share it with certain people without waiting eight gazillion years before its published.

I think writers have always done this. I just don't think they always called them "betas" (aren't those Siamese fighting fish?).

johnzakour · Dec 18, 2007

CheshireCat said:
Ditto.

Whatever works for you works for you.

Betas were just never part of my process.

Glad to see I'm not alone. Like I said, I will on occasion email bits to other writers and ask, "does this suck?" For the most part though I just do my thing and then send it off to my publishers.

We all work different ways.

CheshireCat · Dec 18, 2007

johnzakour said:
Glad to see I'm not alone. Like I said, I will on occasion email bits to other writers and ask, "does this suck?" For the most part though I just do my thing and then send it off to my publishers.

We all work different ways.

Plus, I think a lot of writers simply continue as they began in terms of the process that worked for them; I know I deeply mistrust anything that would alter what's always worked for me. Which is probably the major reason why I never read "how to" books by other writers.

My process has worked for me for more than twenty years, and I ain't gonna mess with it now.

Interestingly enough, among my group of longtime pals who write, none of us use betas -- with the occasional exception of a spouse.

Huh. I never realized that before.

So we're not necessarily a minority, John -- except here, apparently.

Published authors: when do you dispense with the betas?

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