virginia henley-- you're busted!

[preyer]

my wife loves this author, virginia henley. i picked up a couple of her books out of curiosity, and while i don't see anything there other than contrived dialogue and smut, smut, smut (not always a bad thing, but not always good, either (basically it's what i call wal*mart porn)), i could really care less what she reads for the most part.

but the other day i was sitting upon my throne, kinda sick of the hand-held 'battleship' game, and there was 'dream lover,' a bright yellow, 420 page sex-fest just laying around. i got to page two before getting bored, but one thing kinda gnawed at me. i'll copy the paragraph:

'sean's dark eyes lifted to gaze upward, spellbound by the beauty he had stumbled upon. the high-vaulted cave glittered with iridescence, scattering myriads of rainbows across the surface of the water, turning it into a magic pool. then his innate intelligence overruled his imagination as he realized he was on the island of angelsey, wales. this mineral must therefore be anglesite, sulphate of lead in white prismatic crystals that were semitransparent, giving off an adamantine luster that resembled the sparkle of diamonds.'

okay, whatever. then i wondered what time era this whole romp was supposed to take place in, it being a historical 'romance,' given ol' sean's self-assurance of the mineral he was looking at (not to mention the nearly naked girl riding a dolphin in the cave-- okay, whatever, again). scanning through the book, i didn't find any real evidence when the story took place, no solid dates, no historical detail (none that i found, anyway, though certainly she would have clued the reader in at some point, just i hadn't stumbled upon it). however... in the author's notes she writes: 'however, the sailing time between these two places would have been longer in the eighteenth century than i have suggested. i took such license for the benefit of telling a love story.'

license, indeed. the 18th century, you say? so, you mean the 1700's? of course that's what she means, that's what she said. only problem is, anglesite wasn't discovered until-- 1832!

busted, baby!

ah, i love it when i catch 'em red-handed, don't you?

the sad thing is my wife thinks her books are so well-written, yet i'd not have questioned it were the whole crystal idea not so poorly introduced in an out-of-kilter way. apparently, 'innate intelligence' is synonomous with seeing into the future, too. :) i know i shouldn't expect much from a book that's indulging in oral sex by page 8 (no joke), but still, good research and a *modicum* of restraint *should* separate us from flat-out porn peddlers, shouldn't it? lol.

i should probably have a talk with my wife while i'm at it.

[Fresie]

Preyer,

Thanks for the laugh!

Things people read... and write!

[Sassenach]

my wife loves this author, virginia henley. i picked up a couple of her books out of curiosity, and while i don't see anything there other than contrived dialogue and smut, smut, smut (not always a bad thing, but not always good, either (basically it's what i call wal*mart porn)), i could really care less what she reads for the most part.

b

the sad thing is my wife thinks her books are so well-written, yet i'd not have questioned it were the whole crystal idea not so poorly introduced in an out-of-kilter way. apparently, 'innate intelligence' is synonomous with seeing into the future, too. :) i know i shouldn't expect much from a book that's indulging in oral sex by page 8 (no joke), but still, good research and a *modicum* of restraint *should* separate us from flat-out porn peddlers, shouldn't it? lol.

i should probably have a talk with my wife while i'm at it.

Gee, your wife is lucky to have such a 'smart' husband...and one who lets her read what she wants.

[Takvah]

If your wife enjoys it... and she isn't anal about when the mineral was discovered or for that matter what it even is... does this really matter?

See if I was going to take issue with anything, it would likely be the fact that you read on the throne *snickers*. I don't really understand that whole "thing".

Whether you approve or not, most books are written for entertainment, and beyond that, the little inaccuracies are hardly relevant. I think perhaps you have more of an issue with the fact that your wife prefers this drivel, to your work? Oh the sting. *grins*

[maestrowork]

Leave your wife's vice alone, if you want to live happily ever after. I mean, do you want your wife to moan and groan and ***** about the stupidity of the video games you play? Or the golf tournaments you love so much? Or the slasher/horror you read? Or the ... you get the idea.

[Maryn]

Still, it fills me with a most unseemly amount of smug self-satisfaction to catch a popular author making a major gaffe--even if few of the readers will ever know (or would care if they did).

Maryn, who clearly has 'issues'

[Medievalist]

i should probably have a talk with my wife while i'm at it.

Lord, Preyer, don't go there. Let her read what she wants. You should perhaps take a look at some of the romance reader/writer discussion forums to see how other wives took similar discussions.

[Julian Black]

'sean's dark eyes lifted to gaze upward, spellbound by the beauty he had stumbled upon. the high-vaulted cave glittered with iridescence, scattering myriads of rainbows across the surface of the water, turning it into a magic pool. then his innate intelligence overruled his imagination as he realized he was on the island of angelsey, wales. this mineral must therefore be anglesite, sulphate of lead in white prismatic crystals that were semitransparent, giving off an adamantine luster that resembled the sparkle of diamonds.'

[cringes]

Those poor, poor words. I want to find proper homes for them, placing them in good, solid sentences where they will actually serve a purpose.

Oral sex by page 8? Works for me. But I shudder to imagine sex scenes written in this style. I predict there will be at least one mention of a "tumescent member" in there, somewhere.

[preyer]

you mean there are video games that make you smart? i'll be darned. in that case, my 14 year old nephew is destined to be a super-genius.

apparently, i didn't make myself clear. i don't care what she reads. you're right, too, she doesn't like what i write. ca sera sera, eh? this wasn't supposed to be about what she reads or even so much about what i think of the author's writing ability (which sales-wise i'll never match given another lifetime). in my effort to be cute, it seems i've offended (or maybe i'm misreading that after twenty hours of awakedness, lol). ah, well, so it goes, i suppose. now, though, i feel as if there's a point to defend.

and that point is the obvious 'license' taken with historical facts. let me see if i'm getting this straight: a writer can, by page two, willfully (for surely in researching anglesite to the point of finding out it's lead sulphate, isn't it reasonable to infer that she would know when it was discovered, too?) disregard historic fact as long as it's for entertainment? doesn't 'historic' imply a certain level of those little things called FACTS? 'but, preyer, it's just stupid entertainment. lighten up!' what, exactly, is smart entertainment?

does it matter to my wife? no. should it? that's up to her. does it matter to me? you betcha. i expect the 'facts' i read to be accurate just on the off-chance i remember them to use for some purpose later on. if i lose fifty grand when alex trebek asks me when anglesite was discovered, and i say the 18th century which is wrong, i'd be pissed. hell, i'm not *particularly* anal about it: i can allow for some elasticity, but i refuse to let one plus one equal three. it's not like i've got a periodic table tattooed on my chest, but, come on, this sucker might as well have said in bold-face red letters 'research me if i sound cheesy.'

t, i see the humour in your post. i appreciate that. but, yeah, i think the inaccuracies are important to eliminate. that opening scene had a girl in a cave riding a dolphin. i didn't question any of that. i thought it was kind of silly, but, hey, to each his own. though it's my opinion she's a hackneyed and over-sexed writer (who, it seems upon further investigation, is rather loathe to add much 'fact' (read: research) into much else of the story), she's sold a lot of books. which makes it frustrating for me when i chase down a detail to the nth degree for accuracy's sake, and change the scene if the facts flat-out contradict what i want to have happen, while some new york times bestselling author is busted literally by page two by some schlub who just opened her book for the first time. is it drivel? well, yeah. but, that's okay. i highly doubt anything i'll ever write is going to change the world. that's not the point, is it?

i was kinda hoping to get a couple of 'oh, yeah, i busted so-and-so on this-and-that once.' now i'm beginning to remember why i stopped posting new threads in this forum, lol.

m, you don't actually think i play golf, do you? nah, i can't afford the golf balls. negatory on the slasher stuff, too. don't fish, either. but, hey, i'll go sky-diving with anyone who wants to stop by dayton. :)

[Medievalist]

Still, it fills me with a most unseemly amount of smug self-satisfaction to catch a popular author making a major gaffe--even if few of the readers will ever know (or would care if they did).

Henley is actually notorious for making far greater gaffes than this.

[TemlynWriting]

'sean's dark eyes lifted to gaze upward, spellbound by the beauty he had stumbled upon. the high-vaulted cave glittered with iridescence, scattering myriads of rainbows across the surface of the water, turning it into a magic pool. then his innate intelligence overruled his imagination as he realized he was on the island of angelsey, wales. this mineral must therefore be anglesite, sulphate of lead in white prismatic crystals that were semitransparent, giving off an adamantine luster that resembled the sparkle of diamonds.'


Unless that mineral was going to have an key part somewhere else in the story, it sounds like she's trying to sound intelligent, adding information just for the sake of looking smart. Mind you, I'm not saying she isn't smart. I just think that sounds very contrived, that is, unless it's going to come into play again in the story, and is there as a reference for readers to read and remember.

[cringes]

Those poor, poor words. I want to find proper homes for them, placing them in good, solid sentences where they will actually serve a purpose.

Oral sex by page 8? Works for me. But I shudder to imagine sex scenes written in this style. I predict there will be at least one mention of a "tumescent member" in there, somewhere.

And I agree with Julian Black, as well. The poor words. And the sex scenes. I read those types of books in my middle school romance-reading phase. The sex is usually quite unrealistic, just like movies also make it out to be. I won't add TMI here, but it just is unrealistic in most cases.

JMHO :)

[TemlynWriting]

Still, it fills me with a most unseemly amount of smug self-satisfaction to catch a popular author making a major gaffe--even if few of the readers will ever know (or would care if they did).

Maryn, who clearly has 'issues'

I must have "issues," too. ;)

[preyer]

she seems to be a pretty graphic writer where it counts. for me, i think at the end of one of her books i'd be bored with sex. for my wife, it just works her up and gives her unrealistic expectations, heh heh. guys, i really don't care what she reads. seriously, this stuff is basically thinly veiled porn. it's just not designed for me to enjoy, just like what i write isn't designed for my wife. it reminds me of a poor-woman's anais nin (another writer i couldn't get through, despite being given a copy by some chick i worked with-- hey, if that ain't a big 'do me' sign, i don't know what is).

so, gentlemen, i guess there's a lesson to be learned here. first, women want to have sex with preyer. i think that's a given, though. second, if a chick hands you a copy of ms. henley's books, take the hint. play it cool, but find out which was her favourite chapter. need i say more? if i went into more detail, i might turn into a romantic type of slob myself... if your definition of 'romantic' features cameo appearances by ron jeremy.

[TemlynWriting]

she seems to be a pretty graphic writer where it counts. for me, i think at the end of one of her books i'd be bored with sex. for my wife, it just works her up and gives her unrealistic expectations, heh heh.


Kind of like how porn gives men unrealistic expectations & views of women. ;)

[maestrowork]

Preyer, I'm in Cincy and I sky dive!!!

I know what you mean -- a glaring mistake like that would throw someone off. And how dare a best selling author would be so careless about her facts!

However, remember who Henley's audience is -- it's not a scientific, history buff like you. It is the cockeyed, romantically/erotically-inclided housewives. They don't read these books to learn the facts of life or how the world works. If the girl rides a dolphin, then she rides a dolphin. If she finds kryptonite in the cave, she finds kryptonite. If her lover has a 2-foot long lovetool, so be it. It's a fantasy for the readers, and factual accuracy be damned.

I think your wife knows how silly these books are (I assume you didn't marry he for her looks alone...) but she enjoys them because they are silly fun... much like why people enjoy Ed Wood's bad movies or Godzilla. I know an insanely talented and smart person who simply loves all BAD movies. I mean REALLY bad. That's his thing.

Just be glad that your wife reads these to up her sex drive. More joy to you!

[TemlynWriting]

I love some of the geared-toward-women popular chick-lit out there, like the Bridget Jones books, because it's witty, a bit more realistic with (sexual) expectations, and just fun to read. I guess it's a bit more light-hearted than a lot of the romance novels. I love reading about lovey stuff, but I just don't do the heavy-romance novels anymore. I think books like Bridget Jones' Diary, about characters like Bridget, are turning a new leaf for women. We get to laugh with a character who's a bit more like us, who may not get a knight in shining armor, but we love our knights in blue jeans even more. :)

[Medievalist]

Here's a review (http://www.likesbooks.com/llbattrr6.html) of the book in question.

Most of Henley's books are similarly reviewed; an argument has been made, more than once, that she isn't a romance writer, that she's really writing erotica (or porn). The distinction seems to be made because of a lack of emotional involvement on the part of her characters. She's often compared to Beatrice Small (http://www.likesbooks.com/megan24.html).

[Jamesaritchie]

my wife loves this author, virginia henley. i picked up a couple of her books out of curiosity, and while i don't see anything there other than contrived dialogue and smut, smut, smut (not always a bad thing, but not always good, either (basically it's what i call wal*mart porn)), i could really care less what she reads for the most part.

but the other day i was sitting upon my throne, kinda sick of the hand-held 'battleship' game, and there was 'dream lover,' a bright yellow, 420 page sex-fest just laying around. i got to page two before getting bored, but one thing kinda gnawed at me. i'll copy the paragraph:

'sean's dark eyes lifted to gaze upward, spellbound by the beauty he had stumbled upon. the high-vaulted cave glittered with iridescence, scattering myriads of rainbows across the surface of the water, turning it into a magic pool. then his innate intelligence overruled his imagination as he realized he was on the island of angelsey, wales. this mineral must therefore be anglesite, sulphate of lead in white prismatic crystals that were semitransparent, giving off an adamantine luster that resembled the sparkle of diamonds.'

okay, whatever. then i wondered what time era this whole romp was supposed to take place in, it being a historical 'romance,' given ol' sean's self-assurance of the mineral he was looking at (not to mention the nearly naked girl riding a dolphin in the cave-- okay, whatever, again). scanning through the book, i didn't find any real evidence when the story took place, no solid dates, no historical detail (none that i found, anyway, though certainly she would have clued the reader in at some point, just i hadn't stumbled upon it). however... in the author's notes she writes: 'however, the sailing time between these two places would have been longer in the eighteenth century than i have suggested. i took such license for the benefit of telling a love story.'

license, indeed. the 18th century, you say? so, you mean the 1700's? of course that's what she means, that's what she said. only problem is, anglesite wasn't discovered until-- 1832!

busted, baby!

ah, i love it when i catch 'em red-handed, don't you?

the sad thing is my wife thinks her books are so well-written, yet i'd not have questioned it were the whole crystal idea not so poorly introduced in an out-of-kilter way. apparently, 'innate intelligence' is synonomous with seeing into the future, too. :) i know i shouldn't expect much from a book that's indulging in oral sex by page 8 (no joke), but still, good research and a *modicum* of restraint *should* separate us from flat-out porn peddlers, shouldn't it? lol.

i should probably have a talk with my wife while i'm at it.

Try reading some of her other books. Trust me, it all gets worse. Much worse. She's a writer who sells because of the sex, and some of the writing will make you want to swear off books forever. And as far as I can tell, she's never even heard the word "research."

[maestrowork]

A good question is, why do her books sell? I've seen better written erotica for women by women. Or romance. So what is it about her writing that women just kept coming back for... Preyer, maybe it's a good question to ask your wife.

[allion]

<chop>If her lover has a 2-foot long lovetool, so be it.<chop>

This is why I really shouldn't read these forums at work.

Made my day.:roll:

Karen

[Takvah]

Well there are many books with inaccuracies in them, even well researched books contain them. I would be critical of such an error if the author was writing with a true intent to be "factually" accurate. If this woman is writing erotica, then beyond knowing inventive terms for sticking something in someone, we shouldn't expect much. That's all I was saying.

I am very lucky, my wife digs horror and sci-fi and just happens to look like Stevie Nicks circa 1982. *Silently wonders how many kids here are asking themselves, "Who the hell is Stevie Nicks?"*. My ex-wife loved romance novels. I felt the same way you do preyer, I thought they were a total waste of time and pulp. I mean she was reading crap with FABIO on the cover! For shame! Anyway, we weren't very romantic anymore, given that we hated one another it was logical... so it didn't really matter to me. My point is this, do you ever feel like she might be cheating on you with those books? You kinda hinted at some animosity when you said it gave her unrealistic expectations. So, has she commented on you not being romantic enough?

LOL... poor preyer, getting shrunk over a post that knit picked a cheap paperback writer. Come on it's Friday, I'm just having some FUN!

Tak

I am reminded of a joke, sure to tick off the women here....

Why is PMS named PMS? Because mad cow was already taken.

Priceless.

[Jamesaritchie]

A good question is, why do her books sell? I've seen better written erotica for women by women. Or romance. So what is it about her writing that women just kept coming back for... Preyer, maybe it's a good question to ask your wife.

I've seen much better written erotica, but I've seldom seen such blatant erorica. If you read "romance" for the sex, Henley's your gal.

I think Henley is the very rare exception; a very bad writer who sells a lot of novels. But there's an old saying that goes, "If you want to be pubished, you can write well, or you can write sex."

Henley knows her strengths and weaknesses, and she knows how to push a sex scene right to the limit of what the romance genre will allow. She writes the ultimate larger than life (pun intended) hero seducing the reader with wonderful sex novel.

She was a bone of contention (ah, the puns) when I was a member of the RWA, and seemed to be either loved or hated by everyone. There was no middle ground.

[Takvah]

I think Henley is the very rare exception; a very bad writer who sells a lot of novels. But there's an old saying that goes, "If you want to be pubished, you can write well, or you can write sex."

Hmmm.... this from the board sage.

*Contemplates getting a fake fur jacket, a purple hat, and giving himself the pen name Pimp Cane*

So sex sells? Who would've thunk it!? And here we are trying to be highbrow and articulate!

[preyer]

ya know, i never even thought about checking out her reviews. from that link, this link struck me as one of the themes:

'The English are vile, depraved, greedy, and disgusting' ~ who was it what said the reason the sun never sets on the british empire is because even god doesn't trust the english in the dark? no offense to my brit friends, but, c'mon, that's funny.

on a more serious note, do these books warp my poor wife's virginal mind?

wait for it, preyer, wait for it....

bwawawawawawa! 'virginal' is hardly a descriptor i'd use, heh heh. but, yeah, she does complain i'm not very romantic, which is nonsense. granted, lately i haven't had the time to build her a castle or conquer the evil hordes, but, hey, i was working 16 hour daze, gimme a break. in fact, i'm kinda a romantic sap at heart, but that stuff doesn't work on her. if it does, she sure doesn't show any appreciation for it. for example, for valentine's day, i came home after a 12 hour day and thought it'd be cute if i wore an apron from work that i drew 'the anatomy of your husband' on, with the heart full o' love, lungs that breath only for you, blah blah blah. yet, upon first seeing the silly thing, she first wanted to show me the stuff she ordered off ebay and got in the mail that day, *then* she paid me a minute's attention. so, no, i don't tend to go out of my way like that anymore, lol.

and, yeah, i wonder if women who read these things are trying to fill some kind of void. this henley writer really isn't her typical kind of read, she bought a lot of books by the author in an auction. it's an interesting question. does what you read indicate something about your personality that otherwise can't be inferred through a normal conversation? hmmm....

hey, m, if you're still in cincy when the weather breaks, we'll hook up. i still have to jump tandem, but only b/c i can't find anyone else who'll jump with me, lol. doesn't sound like much fun going by myself.

t, i figured ya were playing around. i just used the opportunity to rant about something that irks me, lol. i'm hardly a historian, so it's a major personal coup when i discover a whoopsi. sure, if it's some massive story full of details, something small that i can give the benefit of the doubt to... well, that's probably not going to ruin it. but, cripes, if you've got five details in your whole book and you screw one of them up, that's pretty sorry, lol.

[arrowqueen]

Nonsense. You're just a typical bloke. My beloved's exactly the same. There you are, watching 'Titanic' with the tears tripping you and he's sitting there going: 'That aft engine's not technically accurate, you know.'


:tongue
aq

[BradyH1861]

My wife refuses to watch historical movies with me. Apparently she is tired of hearing "Actually, babe, did you know that...."

Can't say I really blame her.


Brady H.

[Susan Gable]

for my wife, it just works her up and gives her unrealistic expectations, heh heh.

Unrealistic expectations like, she should get an orgasm out of sex? :kiss: No wonder she needs a hero.

LOL.

There's nothing worse than badly written sex. And you're right, a writer ought to do their homework and get their facts straight, and this writer should be :whip: , but she'd probably use that in her next book. <G>

However, it's wrong to tar the whole genre with the same brush, so don't.

And I'd like to say that married women who read romance novels rate their sex lives as more satisfying than their counterparts who don't. (Translation for husbands - guys whose wives read romance are getting more. Because, yeah, it does "work them up.") My husband can usually tell when I've been writing love scenes, or reading some of the more graphic novels. :hooray: That's how he reacts.


Here's an interesting article from Men's Health written by a guy writer who recently "infiltrated" a romance writing conference. It's well written and amusing, and maybe some wisdom there, too.

http://www.menshealth.com/cda/article/0,2823,s1-2-0-0-2306,00.html

Susan G. - a romance writer whose books generally don't have sex by page 2. Or p. 8 for that matter.

[Denis Castellan]

There you are, watching 'Titanic' with the tears tripping you and he's sitting there going: 'That aft engine's not technically accurate, you know.'Ahem... you know, I could have said something like that to my wife just to help holding back my own tears... I mean, why did he let himself drown ??!!:cry:

[Writing Again]

If Shakespeare had to meet the "reality test" many of the "great plays" he wrote would be considered garbage.

I do the research to keep the nit pickers at bay, but my personal feeling is that facts should never interfere with a good story.

Of course I have never read any of her books, and I doubt I ever will: After reading those reviews I somehow doubt the good story is in there.

[Medievalist]

After reading those reviews I somehow doubt the good story is in there.

Again, Henley is an outlier, not at all typical of the genre, even of the more explicit romance novels.

But she's a lot of fun to parody <g>

[mistri]

You know, I've never read any Henley, though I've had to read a fair bit of romance in my time. Don't think I'll be adding her to my Amazon wishlist any time soon :)

[pianoman5]

Ha. Although P T Barnum was a cunning old charlatan, he was also a very wise man. He anticipated the work of Virginia Henley and that of so, so, many others in the entertainment industry when he said:

"Nobody ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public."

[Mistook]

If Shakespeare had to meet the "reality test" many of the "great plays" he wrote would be considered garbage.

I do the research to keep the nit pickers at bay, but my personal feeling is that facts should never interfere with a good story.

Of course I have never read any of her books, and I doubt I ever will: After reading those reviews I somehow doubt the good story is in there.


I like weaving in as many interesting facts as I can - making them part of the story. Partly it's that when I find myself drawing factual blanks, my curiosity gets the better of me and I have to find out exactly how [insert subject here] ticks.

But also, I'm writing urban fantasy, and I think in order for the outlandish dimensions of the story to have real impact, the modern setting has to be drawn very accurately.

This is one reason I feel almost "blessed" to be stuck working as a maintenance man, because it's given me a very thorough knowledge of how buildings and cities work. I've worked with all the pipes and ducts, wires, gadgets, appliances, etc. I know all the strange boxes, meters hidden in odd corners, and all the hole covers in the ground.

And if something needs to go wrong, to further the plot, I know what's plausible. You don't drop a marble down the drain and have it get stuck in the shower head, it's impossible. You don't crawl through an air duct without getting covered with dust and lint, and you'd probably have to fight very hard not to cough or sneeze.

By the way it always amazes me in every single movie ever made, whenever a guy crawls through a duct it's always SPARKLING clean in there. Even in a new construction, that's impossible. The only time ducts are clean is when they roll out of the factory.

[AncientEagle]

Preyer, when I read the example you quoted, I was already ticked before I got to the historical inaccuracy. She turned me off when she said "myriads of rainbows" instead of "myriad rainbows." I rate that along with "the most unique." lol

[Fictionalizer]

My wife refuses to watch historical movies with me. Apparently she is tired of hearing "Actually, babe, did you know that...."

Can't say I really blame her.
Brady H.

The biggest blooper my husband pointed out to me is in Quigley Down Under. The sailing ship has a bow thruster! He'll find even the slightest error in movies. Then we both have a good laugh.

In spite of the error I loved the movie and the characters.

[maestrowork]

That's exactly why James Cameron spent $250 million making Titanic -- he wanted all the facts and details correct... down the the patterns of the china. Still, people would still find nits on the most minute details...

If you ask me, it's all very anal...

[Fictionalizer]

in fact, i'm kinda a romantic sap at heart, but that stuff doesn't work on her. if it does, she sure doesn't show any appreciation for it. for example, for valentine's day, i came home after a 12 hour day and thought it'd be cute if i wore an apron from work that i drew 'the anatomy of your husband' on, with the heart full o' love, lungs that breath only for you, blah blah blah. yet, upon first seeing the silly thing, she first wanted to show me the stuff she ordered off ebay and got in the mail that day, *then* she paid me a minute's attention. so, no, i don't tend to go out of my way like that anymore, lol.

Oh no, that's sad.

You might try something more adventuresome next time. My husband did and I still remember every detail today. Some day I will use it in a book.

A super stretch, white limousine picked me up at my home. Next a helicopter flew me to Victoria, British Columbia. My husband was waiting there beside a horse drawn carriage. We cuddled in a warm, cozy, red blanket and rode to the Empress Hotel. Talk about romantic! The entire weekend was arranged without my knowledge. I loved it. The year was 1991, Valentine's Day.

[maestrowork]

I guess the fear we men have is: How can we ever top that? If we're so over the top romantic this time, are we expected to do something even more grand next time? Can we measure up all the time? Are we supposed to be romantic all time time, every chance we have? What of expectations? If I give her a sapphire this year, would she expect a bigger one or a diamond next year? A stretch limo this year, what about a cruise next year?.... Are we going to be judged EVERYTIME?

;)

[reph]

I guess the fear we men have is: How can we ever top that?... Are we going to be judged EVERYTIME?
I guess that accounts for the 30-second sexual encounters. You guys are crafty.

[preyer]

'titanic' is one of my favourite flicks. when leonard di creepio dies, i just lauuugh till i cry. nah, seriously, it's one of my favourite movies. i admit there are quite a few chick flicks i really dig. can't stand j. blo, though. her and julia roberts are where i draw the line.

'...unrealistic expectations....' it's funny, isn't it, how it's always the lines you didn't intend on being noticed as being the ones people pick out, while the ones you think are gold are shrugged at, lol. rest assured she picked me out of the crowd for my skillz as much as i said, 'yeah, that'll do fine, you're hired.'

i'm not characterizing this author as typical of the genre. having considered banging out a few books myself in this genre, i discuss it with my wife and scan through her vast romance library, which she sells off in large portions only so she can buy more. i think were i to put some effort into it, i might be able to get close to the mark. for my own entertainment i'd write it in a historical setting.

m, i know a few people who have to have their ducts vacuumed because of allergies. i imagine that gets them somewhat clean, eh? i hope in your story to address this fallacy, because common sense tells me ducts get pretty filthy.

hey, i'd love to be able to afford things like that, trust me. the things i do have to be a bit more, ah, homegrown. for instance, last year i had my mom's b/f show me how to do stained glass just so i could make her something for her birthday. i had a design, went out and bought some really nice glass, spent several hours cutting and polishing, and when she came out to see what i was working on, she was very unimpressed, so i just said the hell with it. bear in mind, *i'm* the unromantic one, lol. but, she grew up spoiled. i think that's what did her in, heh heh. some people are apparently impossible to please. :)

ya know, mw, i think there's as much expectation on ourselves to outdo our previous efforts as there are women who expect more every year. personally, one of my own philosophies for happiness is just enjoy what you've got. that probably stems from having been homeless (okay, so i lived on long beach for four months, it still sucked at times, lol) and having been so financially ruined by my ex-g/f that when she first took off i couldn't take twenty bucks out of the atm for lack of funds. i've always been a working man, so i didn't always have the money to enjoy tons and tons of material things. don't get me wrong, i've got my share of crap, but were this place on fire, there're maybe five things i'd try to save. some folk would go in a hundred times until there was nothing left but the decorative soap.

lemme ask this question: is it fair to say that, on average, women are more materialistic than men?

[Mistook]

lemme ask this question: is it fair to say that, on average, women are more materialistic than men?



Yes, quite fair! Quite indeed! and Grrrrrrrnnnt! *scratch *fart... I think it's fairly obvious in my line of work. As a maintenance man, it is perfectly lovely to have me in your house with a grubby face, stinky hat, permanant-paint-splotched pants, and filthy, filthy hands.... carrying a bucket of tools, no less... trouncing around, fiddling with your filthy pipes.

If I can spend an entire day doing that... every day... for years! - Do you think I can possibly give a crap about material possessions? I wallow in the muck of possessions - clearing out forgotton furniture, forgotten clothing and dishes, along with the little hairpins, and the toothpicks under the heater.

Yes, I've seen every single booger and fingernail you left behind, and frankly, it doesn't phase me a bit anymore, and neither does class or race. All I see are people who clog their drains with body hair and flush unfortunate objects down the toilet, which later come back to haunt them.

And what I want is... a beer, a cigarette, and an easy college undergrad. After that a nice ruben sandwich, and a shower.

----

Women are more materialistic than that.

They want the cleanest, rarest, prettiest kinds of things they can get their hands on, and they want as much as they can possibly get. Get a diamond, get a car, get a house, get a GOOD man, get brilliant children who watch a billion channels of cable and have cell phones that can actually cause objects to levitate. Get the purest breed of dog and cat. Get them trained. Get that disgusting thing out of here!

Kill that ridiculous insect and/or arachnid! Kitty, how dare you kill that rabbit! Why do I always have to clean the kitchen? Somebody I know has a better life than we do. Why can't we live that way? All I want is for everything to be perfect.



;)

[Fractured_Chaos]

You know something, preyer? There's something "odd" about that passage.

Ever read "The Crystal Cave"? (Sadly, the name of the author escapes me at the moment)

It's weird. The passage is badly written, and there has been some shifting of the words...but I'd swear it was a description of a cave Merlin found in the aforementioned story. It's just too familiar "feeling".

Of course, it's been years since I read that book. And I figure I'm pprobably out in the ozone somewhere. But it's just an odd feeling.

[oneidii]

Maestrowork: " LOVETOOL ?!?! " I spewed cola all over my desk, where I sit, innocently attempting to work and being seduced by the writers forums! HAHAHA!

[Jamesaritchie]

Oh no, that's sad.

You might try something more adventuresome next time. My husband did and I still remember every detail today. Some day I will use it in a book.

A super stretch, white limousine picked me up at my home. Next a helicopter flew me to Victoria, British Columbia. My husband was waiting there beside a horse drawn carriage. We cuddled in a warm, cozy, red blanket and rode to the Empress Hotel. Talk about romantic! The entire weekend was arranged without my knowledge. I loved it. The year was 1991, Valentine's Day.

See, it's guys like your husband who ruin it for the rest of us poor saps.

[Jamesaritchie]

The biggest blooper my husband pointed out to me is in Quigley Down Under. The sailing ship has a bow thruster! He'll find even the slightest error in movies. Then we both have a good laugh.

In spite of the error I loved the movie and the characters.

A lot of people spotted the bow thruster in Quigley. It wasn't exactly a goof in that the prooduction crew had to take the ships they could get, and many sailing ships do have bow thrusters. They just didn't have them quite as early as Quigley was set.

[BlueTexas]

Would it make a difference if the error was the century stated, rather than when the mineral was discovered? Say she knew it was discovered in 1832. What if she didn't know how to number centuries? Bigger, if you caught it, why didn't the editor?

And if you want to talk errors in popular stuff, watch an episode of CSI with my scientist friend. She can't watch the show anymore because of all the glaring errors. And I'm an optician. Any time they analyze someone's glasses to catch the killer, which they've done three times that I've seen, they screw it up badly.

[Mistook]

Would it make a difference if the error was the century stated, rather than when the mineral was discovered? Say she knew it was discovered in 1832. What if she didn't know how to number centuries? Bigger, if you caught it, why didn't the editor?

And if you want to talk errors in popular stuff, watch an episode of CSI with my scientist friend. She can't watch the show anymore because of all the glaring errors. And I'm an optician. Any time they analyze someone's glasses to catch the killer, which they've done three times that I've seen, they screw it up badly.


Now you've got me wondering. Care to give a few examples? How do they screw up with the glasses, and what are the peeves of your scientist friend. Inquiring minds want to know. :)

[BlueTexas]

Now you've got me wondering. Care to give a few examples? How do they screw up with the glasses, and what are the peeves of your scientist friend. Inquiring minds want to know. :)

The last one I saw with the glasses, one of the characters who wears glasses picked up a shard of broken glasses lens and looked through it. With his glasses on. He then said that the prescription in the broken lens was close to his, about 20/80.

Problem 1-he was wearing his glasses when he looked through the lens. Can't tell how close the RX is to yours if you're wearing your glasses--you lose all point of reference and it's a useless method to begin with.
Problem 2-If thirty people in a room all have 20/80 vision, they will all have different RX's and won't be able to see clearly out of one another's glasses, because 20/80 can mean a million different things. It can be nearsighted, farsighted, presbyopic, astigmatic, or a combination of all of the above, differing from left eye to right for EACH person.
Problem 3-they used a Humphries automatic lensometer to read the RX in the lens and again quoted 'yep, it's 20/80'. Humphries lensometers do not tell you what the RX is in those terms. You read a lens in that machine, and your basic results look like this= -1.00 -1.00 x 32, or some variation on that. Those results tell me that the person is slightly nearsighted with astigmatism with an oblique axis. Not 20/whatever. AND a Humphries is useless unless you already know the type of lens or use one daily. You have to tell the machine if you're looking for a single vision RX or a bifocal, then you have to tell it the style of bifocal (there are about 30). If you use one everyday, you can tell by wonky readings what you've got. But those characters don't.
Problem 4-Using a fragment of the lens, you can't tell which part you've got unless you have the frame there for reference. If it was a multifocal lens, and they have the bottom, they'd have the persons reading RX added to the persons distance RX, giving completely useless results, because without knowing what one is, you can't figure out what the other is without a lot of trial and error estimations and algebra. A minus (nearsighted) RX cancels out a plus (for reading) RX, leaving very ambigious results. For instance, if you normally wore a bifocal, and wanted just a pair of reading glasses, I'd take the RX in the top and add it to the RX in the bottom.
If the bifocal is this:
-4.00 -1.00 x 90
-3.75 -.75 x 90
+2.00 add
The reading glasses would be this:
-2.00 -1.00 x 90
-1.75 -.75 x 90
That is, unless an ophthalmologist wrote the RX, rather than an optometrist, who writes RX's in the manner that the lenses are ground. Then the middle number is backwards, which would change the first number and the last.

So anyway, if you analyzed the reading glasses above, without knowing it was for reading, you'd say the guy was slightly nearsighted, and you'd be wrong. The guy who wears the glasses above is really nearsighted with astigmatism and presbyopia. He can't see distance and he can't see close up. The simple answer? If you found this guys lens, look for the cab who drove him to lenscrafters in a hurry, cause he can't function without them.


Sorry you asked?

[Mistook]

Sorry you asked?


Not at all! That's fascinating. You put it in terms I can understand, which is what CSI tries to do, but apparently, the pressure to write a punchy script overrides the dedication to accuracy.

That's really a travesty, considering that shows like CSI purport to be educating the masses as to the methods of investigative science. I very much agree with Preyer now, that it's almost a fraud, in that after watching CSI, I think I have some kind of authoritative overview of the situation, when in fact I don't.

I mean, CSI can't really claim to be "story based entertainment." The plots and the theme very obviously rely on the amazingness of science for all their worth. To find out it's nothing but the science fiction of convenience. Well there goes the whole premise!

[reph]

Any generalizations about how materialistic men and women are will be just that: generalizations. I'm female and close to the left tail of the bell curve for materialism. I don't much like shopping. My household doesn't have a microwave, a VCR, a DVD player, a cellphone, a video camera, a dishwasher, a TiVo, cable service, or a garbage disposal. I don't feel a need for those things. From reading, I gather that middle-class people now consider them, or most of them, standard.

Just to reassure you, yes, we do have electricity.

[BlueTexas]

Not at all! That's fascinating. You put it in terms I can understand, which is what CSI tries to do, but apparently, the pressure to write a punchy script overrides the dedication to accuracy.

That's really a travesty, considering that shows like CSI purport to be educating the masses as to the methods of investigative science. I very much agree with Preyer now, that it's almost a fraud, in that after watching CSI, I think I have some kind of authoritative overview of the situation, when in fact I don't.

I mean, CSI can't really claim to be "story based entertainment." The plots and the theme very obviously rely on the amazingness of science for all their worth. To find out it's nothing but the science fiction of convenience. Well there goes the whole premise!

Yep. If they can screw up one obscure clue like a pair of glasses, imagine what they do with the big stuff. I knew it was crap at the Humphries Automatic machine. If you want to be accurate, you do it by hand with a lensometer that looks an awful lot like a microscope, and you dial in the RX yourself. Technology only goes so far.

My friend the scientist works at a university in Dallas researching thyroid cancer. She only watched one episode, and ranted about everything from the 'designer made for TV' cut of the labcoats (with monagrams, no less) to the bright shiny cleanliness of the lab, the stickers on the machines, and the lack of hairnets when analyzing hair samples. She went on some more, mostly about a spectrometer, but it was way over my head. If I can get that nit picky from the memory of an episode, well, I imagine her version would be thesis-length.

I won't even mention the episode with an airplane my husband picked to pieces. They weren't even naming the parts right.

Can't believe everything you read, or see. Take it for what it is: entertainment that makes you feel smart for an hour.

[preyer]

of course this has been discussed a million times over, but why is it we're more relaxed towards hollywood 'facts' than we are for books?

all i know about eyes is they help me see, and yet had i saw that episode (since i don't watch csi, that would be hard to do), i'd have been suspicious. i'd seen the show twice, and while i've always liked william peterson (sp), the stylishness of the show struck me as unrealistic, and i kept expecting him to whirl about and spout, 'let's get this evidence back to the batcave for analysis!' quincy rules, anyway.

see, reph, you seem like someone who's got their head screwed on straight as far as material things go. myself, i love stuff, but it's just stuff for the most part. it's not a race. i also hate buying things i can't pay cash for. unfortunately, the pressure mounts all the time to turn to plastic. it's a conspiracy to take your money, ironically, by making money less and less practical in daily life. i've often considered writing a series of articles about how banks and financial institutions really work to scam people out of their money. closing costs... gawd, we can be such limp-dicked suckers, lol.

anyway, yeah, i'd love to pick up one of those '05 mustang convertibles when they come out. but, i can't afford it and won't go into perpetual debt for it.

btw, i never read that book mentioned. i don't read as much as i should. evenso, i don't search out facts to nit-pick about unless they just don't seem right for some reason. i'm usually pretty willing to go with the flow in most cases (which is good, else i wouldn't have been able to watch 'gladiator'). it's just that sometimes....

i possess a weird gift: i can open a newspaper and go directly to the typo on the page.

ultimately, i feel there are only so many liberties and licenses a writer is allowed to take. i do it, too, but never when there's absolutely no chance that i'm being plausible. i might stretch something out when there's a lack of contradicting evidence/facts, but even then i try to reign that in. i'm one of those types that actually likes to pick up a fact or two if possible while reading, so i expect the facts to be accurate, else that variation be noted in the author's notes and an explanation given. i just don't see how it's possible to know everything about anglesite *except* when it was discovered, lol.

i'm looking at henley's picture from the book right now. she looks kinda... crazy to me, lol. it's her eyes, man... they're sort of scary, like she's trying to burn my soul. the first thing i thought when i saw the picture was, 'jeez, that looks like a 'glamour shots' photo.' sure enough, in small print next to the pic it says 'glamour shots.' am i the only one who finds that funny?

[Fictionalizer]

See, it's guys like your husband who ruin it for the rest of us poor saps.

At that time we were quite poor. The limousine pulled up in front of our 23 foot travel trailer in an older trailer park! What a sight that was.

The super stretch limousine was all they had to offer because their regular-sized one was being used. My husband got it for the same rate as the limousine.

The room at the Empress Hotel was a special discounted rate.

The helicopter ride was a discounted commuter flight.

The horse drawn carriage came with the special room rate.

Creativity and memories made on a budget. :D

And I didn't expect him to do the same thing again or something better. I'm not materialistic. I don't buy expensive things and don't expect expensive things. I think that is why that weekend was so memorable. It was unexpected.

Our son got to ride in the super stretch limousine too. He was picked up from school and taken to his babysitter in it. That was a thrill for an eleven year old kid.

[James D. Macdonald]

I think Henley is the very rare exception; a very bad writer who sells a lot of novels.

"Her books are crap but she sells a ton of them" is perhaps the hardest genre of all to break in to.

[Fictionalizer]

Any generalizations about how materialistic men and women are will be just that: generalizations. I'm female and close to the left tail of the bell curve for materialism. I don't much like shopping. My household doesn't have a microwave, a VCR, a DVD player, a cellphone, a video camera, a dishwasher, a TiVo, cable service, or a garbage disposal. I don't feel a need for those things. From reading, I gather that middle-class people now consider them, or most of them, standard.

Just to reassure you, yes, we do have electricity.
I'm with you Reph. I don't like to shop. My husband, on the other hand, loves to shop. He complains that I disappear in the store. I make a list, get it and get out. He wants to look at all the new stuff in the store. His favorite store is a place called Hardware Sales. He gets lost in all the gadgets. He can do that any where he loves to shop though, Wal-Mart, Costco, etc. I go in for a while and then back out to the car. I plug in my laptop and write or read or journal. I am an introvert and my life is focused inwardly unlike my husband.

I do have all the items you mentioned except TiVo, a video camera and a garbage disposal.

I don't wear jewelry. I haven't bought any in over 30 years. And I don't expect to receive any because my husband knows I wouldn't wear it. He's brought home unusual items like a two inch high cedar tree in a styrofoam coffee cup. That cedar tree is now over 10 feet tall. Or he buys me flowers to plant in our garden. Practical gifts.

[three seven]

I think the discovery of anglesite is the least of her worries.
the high-vaulted cave glittered with iridescence, scattering myriads of rainbows across the surface of the water
This is horrible enough, but
myriads of rainbows
When will people learn that 'myriad' is a f***ing adjective?
turning it into a magic pool.
http://www.geocities.com/thingumybobwotsit/no.gif
Then his innate intelligence overruled his imagination as he realized he was on the island of angelsey, wales.
This is possibly the best line ever written. Ever.
This mineral must therefore be anglesite, sulphate of lead in white prismatic crystals that were semitransparent,
Nice bit of textbook-quoting there.
giving off an adamantine luster that resembled the sparkle of diamonds.
Yeah, except that's basically the definition of 'adamantine luster.' Kind of like saying it had a golden glow that resembled the glow from some gold. Aaaaaagghhhh.

This Ms Henley is evil and must be destroyed.

[Medievalist]

I believe Henley is also responsible for the phrase "molten core" to refer to a vagina, and "man muscle" for a phallus. I'd have to search back in the archives of the Purple Prose Contest to determine if she is the first recorded user.

I had to read four of her novels for a court case. It nearly killed me. I had to bribe myself by buying a CD for each novel I read and wrote up.

[Fictionalizer]

i possess a weird gift: i can open a newspaper and go directly to the typo on the page.

My husband and I are same way. He even more so. He's always laughing at the typos and then showing them to me. His ability is attributed to ADHD

I found several in a top selling book about six months ago. I don't recall the book's name. However the author is well known. That shocked me. Maybe he edits and doesn't let any one touch his books?

[three seven]

I had to read four of her novels for a court case.
Were they prosecuting her for crimes against literature? Please say yes.

[pianoman5]

Were they prosecuting her for crimes against literature? Please say yes.

I believe Ms Henley was caught driving a word processor without due care and attention.

[maestrowork]

Sometimes typos slip through because the authors and editors are overworked, and they were under extreme deadlines and... lots of reasons why sometimes typos are not caught. Especially homonyms like "accept" and "except," or "write" and "right."

[reph]

My husband and I are same way. He even more so. He's always laughing at the typos and then showing them to me. His ability is attributed to ADHD

Does that mean everyone with this "gift" has ADHD? Just, um, you know, wondering.

I found several in a top selling book about six months ago. I don't recall the book's name. However the author is well known. That shocked me. Maybe he edits and doesn't let any one touch his books?
I always find typos, even in reputable books from reputable publishers. Not so for books published early in the 20th century. Something has happened to proofreading, something bad.

[maestrowork]

I believe Henley is also responsible for the phrase "molten core" to refer to a vagina, and "man muscle" for a phallus.

And you guys are laughing at my two-foot-long lovetool?

[BlueTexas]

I believe Henley is also responsible for the phrase "molten core" to refer to a vagina, and "man muscle" for a phallus. I'd have to search back in the archives of the Purple Prose Contest to determine if she is the first recorded user.

I had to read four of her novels for a court case. It nearly killed me. I had to bribe myself by buying a CD for each novel I read and wrote up.

I had always assumed that romance novels like this were the root of all evil. I say assumption because I've never read one. My sister loves them, and that was telling enough for me :) After reading the above, I am truly frightened. Molten core? I have just lost respect for all of my romance-reading co-workers. Every time I see one of them tomorrow, I'm going to be thinking of molten cores. It's going to be a tough day.

You deserved at least a pound of chocolate per chapter!

[maestrowork]

Not all romance novels are bad. But with 50% of all novels in the market "romance," you may have to dig deeper to find the gems.

[Medievalist]

I always find typos, even in reputable books from reputable publishers. Not so for books published early in the 20th century. Something has happened to proofreading, something bad.

You rarely catch all the typos, no matter how hard you try.

Reph is absolutely right, something has happened to proofreading--two thngs, really. First, over reliance on spell checkers instead of human intelligence, and secondly (and this is the one that really really annoys me) people attempting to proof only off the screen, rather than from hard copy.

[Medievalist]

After reading the above, I am truly frightened. Molten core? I have just lost respect for all of my romance-reading co-workers.

Please don't judge the genre, the readers or the authors by Henley; she is to Romance what L. Ron Hubbard is to SF, except she's more phallo-centric.

There are some wonderful authors. I'm partial to much of Georgette Heyer's work, the woman who essentially founded the Georgian and Regency genres.

Spend some time looking around the All About Romance (http://www.likesbooks.com) site; some very smart people, smart readers, and smart writers. Don't miss their parody sections.

[James D. Macdonald]

You've heard of Sturgeon's Law?

"90% of everything is crud."

[BlueTexas]

Please don't judge the genre, the readers or the authors by Henley; she is to Romance what L. Ron Hubbard is to SF, except she's more phallo-centric.

There are some wonderful authors. I'm partial to much of Georgette Heyer's work, the woman who essentially founded the Georgian and Regency genres.

Spend some time looking around the All About Romance (http://www.likesbooks.com/) site; some very smart people, smart readers, and smart writers. Don't miss their parody sections.

I'm not judging the genre as a whole, just the lurid icky bits--and maybe those who get their only entertainment from reading about a 'man muscle'. A little. You should meet those coworkers of mine.

I can't knock all the romance writers, not in one fell swoop. Not any of them, really. Especially since I've never read them. But those covers peeking out of purses under desks...bodice rippers, is that what they call them? Those make me think of lurid icky bits.

Besides, even Henley has something I don't--a succesful writing career. She must have done something right that I've yet to figure out.

I didn't mean to sound like I was judging the whole genre.

[Vipersniper]

:D I do gemstone mining and hey this type is larger than I expected. But alamandine is the color of a yellowish slightly orange and really does not shine like a diamond. It belongs really in the garnet colorization. But for those novels after awhile they get too predictable. Now I like an interesting story even if it is a rauchy. But when every page is filled with nothing but pure sex this becomes obvious that it is a man writing it. I would have found that one amusing. But then here is the thing remember the miranda rights guys. In that anything you say will be used against you especially at two o'clock in the morning when you are trying to sleep. She will remind you of what you said and use it against you. Hehe

[preyer]

i mentioned that i pick up a lot of her romance books, and usually will read the first page or two. honestly, i can't tell one author from another as most of them seem to be floating in the same boat. except for henley. now, *her* i think i might be able to pick out of a crowd. i'm just not sure that's a good thing always, lol.

[PattiTheWicked]

I believe Henley is also responsible for the phrase "molten core" to refer to a vagina, and "man muscle" for a phallus. I'd have to search back in the archives of the Purple Prose Contest to determine if she is the first recorded user.

.

Tee hee. Man Muscle. That's pretty funny, and what's REALLY funny is that someone thought it would be a good idea to use it in a novel.

I did try reading a couple of Virginia Henley books once. They had characters whose names were silly, like Lynx and Ravyn and Thorne -- because, you know, those were all very common names amongst the English aristocracy at one time. I seem to recall at one point reading one of the dumbest passages ever, in which a character learns about Wicca from her granny the druid, and it was so badly done -- and so inaccurate -- that I actually snorked coffee out my nose.

[--E]

Not at all! That's fascinating. You put it in terms I can understand, which is what CSI tries to do, but apparently, the pressure to write a punchy script overrides the dedication to accuracy.

That's really a travesty, considering that shows like CSI purport to be educating the masses as to the methods of investigative science. ...


-->Try to think of it as "they're showing the kinds of things investigators do, but not how it's really done." An investigator might pick up a piece of glass at a crime scene and then back in the lab they might figure out it belongs to a pair of eyeglasses. And that combined with other evidence might lead them on a trail.

It's kind of like all the witness-leading or witness-speechifying in every courtroom drama. That would never happen in reality, but that information would probably come out--just a lot slower than a 1-hour TV show can pace it. Court TV is pretty dull when they've got live trial witnesses on the stand.

--E

[Velleity]

Is it just me, or does Man Muscle and the Molten Core sound like a superhero crime-fighting team?

[--E]

I had to read four of her novels for a court case. It nearly killed me. I had to bribe myself by buying a CD for each novel I read and wrote up.

-->Please! You can't just lay this bomb on us and not tell us why! :Hail:

Well, unless you're not allowed to.

--E

[--E]

I always find typos, even in reputable books from reputable publishers. Not so for books published early in the 20th century. Something has happened to proofreading, something bad.

-->Report from the trenches here...

AFAICT, there are two forces at odds here. The desire to get a book out on the stands on the date the publisher declared it would be, and the desire to make a book as perfect as possible. Guess which one of those is believed to impact the bottom line more?

Most copyeditors and proofreaders I know are anal about getting things right. But I agree with you that there are clearly lots of not-good-at-their-jobs c/es who are getting work.

Personally, I think it's because an ever decreasing population of anal-retentives like me are losing ground to the hordes who don't know enough to care. :Smack: (Because only ignorance would allow a person to think it's okay to maul English. Right? Of course!)

--E

[aadams73]

Is it just me, or does Man Muscle and the Molten Core sound like a superhero crime-fighting team?

I dare someone to take this idea and run with it. ;)

[maestrowork]

Heck, I even have the theme song for it....

<da da da da da>
There's something hot, in the neighborhood,
Who you're gonna call,
Man Muscle.
And something throbs, in my little bedroom,
Who you're gonna call,
Molten Core.

[Medievalist]

-->Please! You can't just lay this bomb on us and not tell us why! :Hail:

Well, unless you're not allowed to.

--E

I'm not allowed to. It had to do with an excessive long term practice of plagiarism by a particular author (not Henley). I read well over a hundred romance novels in a few weeks, and wrote critiques of each, including character and motif analyses, and locating passages that I felt were strinkingly similar <cough> to passages in a small subset of novels. I was deposed by both sides of the case, and the day after I was deposed the defense dropped the case.

It paid my tuition fees and books for a quarter !<g>

[reph]

It paid my tuition fees and books for a quarter!
And they say you can't get anything for a quarter nowadays.

Okay, okay, I'm scuttling away. Put down those tomatoes. Make a salad with them instead.

[Denis Castellan]

I actually snorked coffee out my nose.Now THAT is Magic!;)

Heck, I even have the theme song for it....Thanks, really... now every time I'm going to hear the song on the radio, I'm going to have weird images in my head...:Wha:

[PattiTheWicked]

Is it just me, or does Man Muscle and the Molten Core sound like a superhero crime-fighting team?

When I first read it, it made me think of that scene in Spinal Tap...

"It's a ballad, actually. It's called "Lick my Love Pump."

[Vipersniper]

:LilLove: Muscle man and Molten Core sounds like a new television series for crime solving writers investigating all the murders at PublishAmerica after all the pissed off authors get at them. What do you think guys?

[hoyateach]

When will people learn that 'myriad' is a f***ing adjective?

"Myriad" is a mathematical term from the Greek that means "ten thousand."

By the way hi. It's nice to be here. :snoopy:

[Alphabeter]

When I first read it, it made me think of that scene in Spinal Tap...

"It's a ballad, actually. It's called "Lick my Love Pump."

That is my new official explanation:

I go to 11

[whitehound]

Ms Henley sounds truly apalling. My own favourite piece of over-writing, however, is actually in Dracula. Years ago I was reading it for the first time, and I came on the following description [below] of van Helsing - which Bram Stoker obviously thought sounded very attractive. My mother asked what I was laughing about so I tried to read it aloud, but I only got about two-third of the way through it (as far as the twin bumps, in fact) before I collapsed, screaming with laughter. During this, my friend Barbara came into the room. My mother said "Don't be ridiculous," snatched the book and herself tried to read it aloud, and likewise folded up howling. Then Barb took the book and she too attempted to read it aloud - picture if you will three normally quite sensible adults in a state of utter collapse, all sobbing for breath and none of us able to utter a coherent word for several minutes. I tried to read the passage aloud again last week - and I still had to make three attempts.

"I rose and bowed, and he came towards me; a man of medium weight, strongly built, with his shoulders set back over a broad, deep chest and a neck well balanced on the trunk as the head is on the neck. The poise of the head strikes one at once as indicative of thought and power, the head is noble, well-sized, broad, and large behind the ears. The face shows a hard, square chin, a large, resolute, mobile mouth, a good-sized nose, rather straight, but with quick, sensitive nostrils, that seem to broaden as the big, bushy brows come down and the mouth tightens. The forehead is broad and fine, rising at first almost straight and then sloping back above two bumps or ridges wide apart; such a forehead that the reddish hair cannot possibly tumble over it, but falls naturally back and to the sides. Big, dark blue eyes are set widely apart, and are quick and tender or stern with the man's moods."

Years ago I read a wonderful review of a new British high-art literary novel - I forget both the title and the author but the writer was a very gifted and vivid one who had turned her (I think) considerable talents to in-depth descriptions of lashings [ahem] of sado-masochistic sex and technicolour vomit in the kitchen sink. The reviewer said that his or her family now had a new family game, which consisted simply of opening this book at random, sticking a pin in a page and then trying to read aloud the paragraph you had pinned, *without laughing.* Nobody had yet beaten the challenge.

As regards typoes, it's incredibly difficult to spot errors in your own work unless you put it on one side for so long that you forget what it was you were writing about. Otherwise, your brain just sees what it remembers it meant to put, rather than what it really put. It once took me six months to realize that I'd drawn a figure with two left hands...

As regards errors in stories, even very good writers make them. The very excellent SF/fantasy writer Tad Williams, in his Memory, Sorrow and Thorn quadrilogy, refers multiple times to "malachite statues" which from the description he obviously imagines to be black (note to non-mineral-buffs, malachite is a weird stone banded with stripes and loops of alternating deep green and lurid bright green).

The historical novelist Diana Norman, who is normally of the very highest standard both in her writing and in her research, once wrote a novel about 17th C playwright Aphra Benn (sadly I can't remember the title and I can't find it on the net - it seems to be comprehensively out of print). Historically Aphra Benn was crippled by a mysterious disease which her detractors said was syphilis, but Mrs Norman's thesis was that it was rheumatoid arthritis.

This is actually possible - but more by good luck than good judgement, because at the time she was writing the book this flew in the face of all medical knowledge because it was believed that RA did not appear in the human population until the 19th C (having crossed species from goats). Since the book was written, new evidence has emerged that RA existed in Europe as far back as the 7th C (and a lot earlier in America) - but it is clear from Mrs Norman's notes on the story that it had quite simply not occurred to her that rheumatoid arthritis might not have been around in the 17th C.

The film Titanic actually attracted a lot of criticism in Scotland because it portrayed a Scots officer (I forget his name - names really aren't my thing) as having panicked and started firing, when in fact the historical record shows he acted with great coolness and heroism. His family were understandably very upset about this slur on a brave man's character.

But the prize of the lot goes to the author (unknown because I can't find a reference on the net) of a wonderfully well-written British radio play called "Echo of the Dragon." This was about Richard III and Henry Tudor, later Henry VII. A large part of the play centred around Henry's attempts to seduce, bully and blackmail Thomas Lord Stanley into coming over to his, Henry's, side in the forthcoming battle of Bosworth.

It was a truly beautiful play, well-written, well-acted, sad and creepy and very thoroughly researched - except that somehow (despite it being common knowledge among all scholars of the period) the author had managed completely to miss the point that *Lord Stanley was Henry's step-father*!

[James D. Macdonald]

From this we can see that Bram Stoker believed in phrenology.

The Diana Norman book -- would that have been The Vizard Mask?

[Medievalist]

From this we can see that Bram Stoker believed in phrenology.

Or physiognomy.

[James D. Macdonald]

Breaking news: Salieri did not kill Mozart! Film at eleven!

[whitehound]

From this we can see that Bram Stoker believed in phrenology.


Mmm, possibly - but it's not the fact that van Helsing *has* two lumps on his head that's the problem IMO, it's the way Stoker describes them as if we will automatically find them beautiful (I know tastes change - but I don't think there was a fad for lumpy foreheads even in the Victorian era!) and the way all the bits of the man's face seem to be sliding around all the time. He sounds like a particularly manic Spitting Image puppet. I mean, picture it - with his two lumps sticking up like horns, and his eyes set out at the sides, and his long red "mad scientist" hair and his twitching nostrils and his wriggling mouth and his eyebrows bouncing up and down on elastic and his "quick" eyes rolling around...

The Diana Norman book -- would that have been The Vizard Mask?


Might be - the name doesn't ring a bell but I have a terrible memory for names.

If you ever get a chance to read her King of the Last Days, grab it. It's one of my all-time favourite books, but very hard to get hold of.