not sure how people will view my MC in the end....

preyer · Dec 8, 2007

my MC needs her revenge, and she gets it in a way that absolves her of *most* of the blame. however, there's a little bit of spite in her at the end, a degree of satisfaction at seeing the people who had done her wrong bite the big one in the end.

so, that got me thinking. in most revenge stories, the MC is somehow redeemed by the end via dumb contrivances that allows them to get their revenge but is spiffy clean morally by the last page. that or the character learns that revenge wrong, fogiveness good. the worst is when the MC hacks through 97 people to get to main objective and suddenly lets the guy live. man, that's just stupid.

my question is this: would you feel cheated somehow at the end if the MC wasn't completely sinless and that she can't exactly say she feels worse for her revenge, negating the 'revenge bad' motif for the most part? or do you feel that roses and rainbows need shoot out her ass because she's suddenly so perfect and we can forgive her trepasses because she learned her lesson, and that's the only kind of ending you'll accept as satisfactory?

i usually don't think in terms of genre, so i really don't have an idea what a reader's expectations are, that's why i ask the question more in general terms.

WriterInChains · Dec 8, 2007

I wouldn't care a bit whether your MC was "sinless." Was the story good? Did the ending fit? Those are the things I care about. In fact, I abhor stories that try to teach me that revenge is bad -- what if I'm in the mood for a rompin' revenge fantasy? Happens. Write it well & don't intrude (too much) & your readers will be happy rainbows don't shoot out her ass while harps play in the background. I know I will be!

But, take this FWIW: I love tragic stories & anti-heroes; my last MC was described by a beta as "prickly" and I think she was being kind. Same beta also said she liked that my MC sought redemption toward the end, but didn't know if she could trust it. Very cool, IMO!

preyer · Dec 8, 2007

my MC sets up situations that winds up her enemies' undoing, warns them before they set foot into her traps, they ignore her and do what they want, and she basically absolves herself from any wrongdoing after that. is that bad story-wise? she's not jumping for joy for what she did, but nor does she fall to her knees and beg God's forgiveness, either.

and i agree, i hate it when stories pull punches. i'm just having a bit of a character resolution issue here.

Danger Jane · Dec 8, 2007

If there is a change in her character by the end of the novel, I don't care how she feels about the revenge--as long as she is not precisely the same person she was at the beginning.

WriterInChains · Dec 8, 2007

Sounds like you have a good story, preyer. Most MCs would skip the warning, I like the sound of that twist!

kuwisdelu · Dec 8, 2007

preyer said:
in most revenge stories, the MC is somehow redeemed by the end via dumb contrivances that allows them to get their revenge but is spiffy clean morally by the last page. that or the character learns that revenge wrong, fogiveness good.

ahhhhh!

What revenge stories are YOU reading? I would hate a revenge story like that. When I'm in the mood for a revenge story, I would want the main character to get some good, bloody revenge. Give me Othello, give me Edmund Dantes. Revenge isn't for sinless cowards who don't carry through. I want to read about an angry, violent, wronged badass who'll vicarously channel my own craziness so I don't go insane.

I hate sinless characters.

Danger Jane · Dec 8, 2007

kuwisdelu said:
ahhhhh!

What revenge stories are YOU reading? I would hate a revenge story like that. When I'm in the mood for a revenge story, I would want the main character to get some good, bloody revenge. Give me Othello, give me Edmund Dantes. Revenge isn't for sinless cowards who don't carry through. I want to read about an angry, violent, wronged badass who'll vicarously channel my own craziness so I don't go insane.

I hate sinless characters.

Bruce Wayne!

Doesn't Edmond Dantes have mercy in the end, though? He forgives his enemies once he realizes he's ruining Mercedes' life.

C. L. Richardson · Dec 8, 2007

It would be tricky, but I do think you could pull it off.

kuwisdelu · Dec 8, 2007

Danger Jane said:
Doesn't Edmond Dantes have mercy in the end, though? He forgives his enemies once he realizes he's ruining Mercedes' life.

Ah, but there is a definite difference between realizing you've taken it too far and having mercy, and being sinless. I don't mind some kind of redemption, as long as it's not taken to the "oh-my-god what did i do?? I should have forgiven everything! Killing is wrong! Revenge is wrong! I'm so sorry for even thinking of it! I am such a terrible person, please forgive me, god!" character extent.

Church Lady · Dec 8, 2007

I love this kind of discussion.

I was very, very fortunate last year to be in a position to have had a similar conversation with an award-winning author. She was grappling with the same thing. Tidy it up (the ending), or keep it darker and more authentic.
You're in good company.
Go with your gut. Keep the character authentic.

Danger Jane · Dec 8, 2007

kuwisdelu said:
Ah, but there is a definite difference between realizing you've taken it too far and having mercy, and being sinless. I don't mind some kind of redemption, as long as it's not taken to the "oh-my-god what did i do?? I should have forgiven everything! Killing is wrong! Revenge is wrong! I'm so sorry for even thinking of it! I am such a terrible person, please forgive me, god!" character extent.

True true. I guess I took your examples to mean examples of characters who were morally ambiguous to the end, like preyer's character sounds to be.

maestrowork · Dec 8, 2007

WriterInChains said:
I wouldn't care a bit whether your MC was "sinless." Was the story good? Did the ending fit?

I agree.

And that's where good betas can do a lot of good. These are the kind of questions you can ask them.

wayndom · Dec 8, 2007

I've wrestled with this, because I like realistic stories, so I try to do it realistically. That is, if my MC takes out a baddie, he'll feel remorse over it. Maybe not crippling remorse, maybe only strong ambiguity, but some remorse, because that's real.

Soldiers kill with the full approval of their society at large and everyone they know, but they still often are plagued by the responsibility of what they've done. Cops, too, on the rare occasions that they kill someone.

A good example of just what you're addressing is the ending of Deliverance. Burt Reynolds' character has to kill the baddies to survive, but ends up with a recurring nightmare about the dead bodies. Fade to black.

Just enough to make his character believable and not have the audience asking, "But he killed people -- does he just go back to his normal life as if nothing happened?"

(For two outstanding examples of the opposite treatment, check out Woody Allen's Crimes and Misdemeanors and Match Set, both of which have MC's killing out of convenience without much remorse at all.)

David I · Dec 8, 2007

Check out the classic first "Parker" novel Point Blank, by Richard Stark (pen name for Donald E. Westlake).

Parker is relentless, unapologetic, and damned-near heartless. And, lo and behold, he doesn't follow a character arc and find himself transformed by the end. He just gets his revenge, against mounting odds.

Readable? It's still in print, 45 years after it was first published. And one novelist recently claimed (with good reason) it was a book every novelist ought to read.

Oddsocks · Dec 8, 2007

If your character is the kind of person who wants revenge and would feel satisfaction at getting it, then I would prefer it if the story stayed true to that. I have nothing against people being 'above' that kind of thing - they can make wonderfully interesting characters too. But if that's not your character, then it's not your character, and forcing it to be so would just feel strange.

kuwisdelu · Dec 8, 2007

Danger Jane said:
True true. I guess I took your examples to mean examples of characters who were morally ambiguous to the end, like preyer's character sounds to be.

I thought my examples were more morally ambiguous to the end than preyer's character. I didn't see preyer's character as morally ambiguous at all--since she warned them, it no longer becomes her fault. I thought the question was whether her being directly involved in setting whatever traps led to their demise was too much or whether an unrealistic deus ex machina approach would be better morally, despite being untrue. I guess the only ambiguity would be how much satisfaction she gets (was it a little too much?). Maybe this is just my rationalization of it. Othello had no moral problems killing Desdemona for her crime, he only regretted it because he discovered she was innocent. Likewise, I never saw Edmund Dantes feeling remorse for taking revenge on those who harmed him--he just regretted taking it to far once he realized he'd gone to a point where he was hurting more than just those who had hurt him.

ebrillblaiddes · Dec 8, 2007

kuwisdelu said:
Ah, but there is a definite difference between realizing you've taken it too far and having mercy, and being sinless. I don't mind some kind of redemption, as long as it's not taken to the "oh-my-god what did i do?? I should have forgiven everything! Killing is wrong! Revenge is wrong! I'm so sorry for even thinking of it! I am such a terrible person, please forgive me, god!" character extent.

For some reason this reminds me of a short story I read in Freshman Lit in college...the name escapes me at the moment. The main character's son had been killed and at the end the main character kills his son's murderer, then goes home, realizing that it didn't make him feel any better, or something like that. It's been a long time.

preyer · Dec 9, 2007

true, there's got to be that character growth i'm always harping about. and the point isn't that revenge isn't poison for the soul, or that violence or some incarnation of that is neither good nor bad but rather just a tool... the character right now 'grows', though i feel there's an emptiness there by the end. i don't want her to be an empty shell, but i also don't want her particularly repentent, either. all this while still keeping her in the reader's good graces.

i'm thinking i'm screwed. am i asking too much here, ya think? she starts off an innocent maid and gradually is beaten down to the point where she can't take anymore. another thing i have to be sure to do is make her 'victims' cruel enough to deserve their fates, though the story isn't a slaughter-fest: they're just bad people the world will be better off without. that's why she warns them first, so i think i've got that base covered. it just feels to me there's a bit of cruelness left over in her at the end, something i want to resolve without being sappy and cliche about.

it's an issue with me because i like to know how my characters end up so i can know where exactly to start and how to pace myself. then again, i imagine there are plenty of bitter chicks out there who would dig it.

about the realism, well, i can't say it's a realistic story. victorian era story with a supernatural angle and a romance gone awry turned revenge tale sums it up. originally, i had her and her fiance living happily ever after. it lacked any kind of spice, though, and would otherwise be one dreadfully dull scene (to me, anyway) after another.

this is weird, because i can't remember ever having a problem resolving characters.

a_sharp · Dec 9, 2007

Preyer, when your innocent exacts revenge, the experience deepens her. This is real life and you obviously understand that. The extent of that depth depends on her character, fortitude, and what she has learned on the way there. As you point out, revenge comes at a cost. It is never free unless the victim simply watches how it's exacted by outside forces, and that never makes for satisfying story. Once she takes revenge, the result is sweet poison. She's triumphed, but at a cost to her innocence. It makes her not so different from others, but it's a dark side she can accept.

These are generalizations, but I think you're onto something very powerful here, certainly more compelling than happily-ever-after, because it mirrors real life.

scarletpeaches · Dec 9, 2007

I'd prefer it if the MC wasn't sinless. Surely that's what makes her human? I object to 'morally spiffy revenge' endings, because life isn't like that. What's wrong with someone being vindictive in even a small way?

For instance, if I had my mother in front of me now, would I take the moral high ground or would I kill her? Well, neither. I'd take great pleasure in smacking her shitless. I think that's a nice compromise.

preyer · Dec 9, 2007

okay, guys, thanks for all the comments. i'm glad to see there's not a predominance of 'happy ending' arguments. this ain't a massage, after all.

i think one of her 'victims' will be a pompous inspector. now to resist the urge to have him have a handsome son that she gives a wink and a smile to at the end. by avoiding a potential 'life goes on, and, hey, there's someone right there' thing, there may be a slight risk of ending on a sour note.

i'm taking notes at the moment, trying to sort through the characters. it's one of those deals where it gets grittier the more the story unfolds and she's introduced to real life. i guess ultimately it's a kind of wish fulfillment story for bitter young women whose naivetee is taken advantage of by a jerk with an awful family.

but now i'm wondering if she should screw some guy as part of her self-emotional rescue once she finds out the awful truth. so, ladies, if you find out your fiance is a complete and utter asshole, does it cross your mind to just bang some guy (theoretically speaking, of course) to help yourself get over things?

DeadlyAccurate · Dec 9, 2007

wayndom said:
I've wrestled with this, because I like realistic stories, so I try to do it realistically. That is, if my MC takes out a baddie, he'll feel remorse over it. Maybe not crippling remorse, maybe only strong ambiguity, but some remorse, because that's real.

It's real, but not every person feels it. For anyone who writes a book in which someone is killed, I highly recommend the book, On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning To Kill in War and Society by Lt. Col Dave Grossman.

Reading that book helped me make my MC real, because there is a percentage of the population that actually can do it without losing sleep over it. I wanted to know what the average person feels when it happens, so I could understand how my MC is different. It also helps to understand degrees of separation from the killer and the killed. Dropping bombs from two miles away feels different psychologically than stabbing a man in the gut with a bayonet.

Whether your MC's spite will seem too heartless or within the bounds of reality really depends on the tone of your story. You can get away with blatant murder and still keep your character likable if you just do it right. Remember, we can like characters in fiction that we would abhor in real life.

WriterInChains · Dec 9, 2007

preyer said:
but now i'm wondering if she should screw some guy as part of her self-emotional rescue once she finds out the awful truth. so, ladies, if you find out your fiance is a complete and utter asshole, does it cross your mind to just bang some guy (theoretically speaking, of course) to help yourself get over things?

I might -- in fact, when I found out (okay, when it was confirmed beyond even my denial skills) my ex was a complete & utter asshole that's pretty much what I did. But nobody's accused me of being normal for some time now, so take that with as large a grain of salt as you'd like.

When someone fucks with me, it's always a war between "keep your dignity" and "get back at them." Usually dignity wins, but not always.

Deadly -- Thanks for the reading suggestion! Sounds like something I need to read for my current WIP. I'm off to the library before this snow starts sticking!

preyer · Dec 9, 2007

that reminds me of the advice i always used to say: 'screw the creative writing course, take psychology instead.'

i'm usually a 'get back at them' kind of person. no high ground taker am i. i'm vindictive that way generally speaking. no, no tire slashing or anything like that. no suing the ex for the teddy bear i won at the carnival. not even bad-mouthing. just get back on track as fast as possible and show them how replacable they are (invariably it's just bullshit on my part, but if they buy into the illusion that's gotta hurt. and as i think about it, this probably makes them feel better by realizing how smart they were to screw me over in the first place. hmmm... remind me to call my ex g/f of nine years up and tell her what a bitch she is).

lfraser · Dec 9, 2007

The fact is that most people would feel satisfaction at having won out. It's human nature.

It sounds to me as though your character will ring true.

not sure how people will view my MC in the end....

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