When do you quit an idea?

Zelenka · Dec 3, 2007

I know there are a couple of threads on when it's right to abandon a WIP, but my question is a little different, so I hope it's okay to start a new discussion.

What concerns me is, when do you abandon an idea rather than a WIP. What I mean is, I rarely completely abandon WIPs, but rather I tend to stash them and bring them out later when I get some idea as to how to fix them. I have one WIP though where the thing I like about it is the premise and story. I love the idea behind it in fact. But so far I've written, I think, four different beginnings to the novel and none of them have worked. The last one, which I thought was finally a really good way to express the idea, turned out to be the biggest load of rubbish ever. Which is annoying also because I went all the way to the country it's set in to research, thinking I might actually be onto something good.

So, could it be that the actual idea is rotten, or should I slog on and try to find it's perfect vehicle, or a great way to tell the story? How do you know if an idea is flawed, if it still feels really good to you? Has anyone been in this sort of situation too?

seun · Dec 3, 2007

Can't say I've ever been in exactly the same situation. The closest I've come is areas of the book that obviously don't work. In that case, I either write through it while being aware it's crap until I get on to a new section or I simply leave it and return during the rewrite. So far, this has got me through any major problems.

Sounds like you're halfway there if you're that keen on your idea. What about sticking with an opening you don't much like and seeing what you can do with it once you get to the middle or even the end?

Zelenka · Dec 3, 2007

seun said:
Can't say I've ever been in exactly the same situation. The closest I've come is areas of the book that obviously don't work. In that case, I either write through it while being aware it's crap until I get on to a new section or I simply leave it and return during the rewrite. So far, this has got me through any major problems.

Sounds like you're halfway there if you're that keen on your idea. What about sticking with an opening you don't much like and seeing what you can do with it once you get to the middle or even the end?

What I've been doing is trying a different approach, things like choice of POV character, basically how I handle the story. The latest one I actually thought had a chance of working, and I thought it was a lot better than previous attempts, but judging from reactions to it, it's worse. I'm not adverse to trying a new version, and I get what you're saying about just sticking with it, even if the opening feels weird, but I just wondered if it was the basic idea that was rubbish and that's why it's not working.

seun · Dec 3, 2007

JessRamage said:
but I just wondered if it was the basic idea that was rubbish and that's why it's not working.

Sadly, only you can answer that one. I still say being as keen as you are is half the job, though.

narnia · Dec 3, 2007

Hi there!

I am sorry I can't offer anything profound and wisdomly, but here goes anyway (and I am still working on finishing my first ms so bear that in mind

):

I read in your original post a great enthusiasm for your idea. For me, that would indicate that your idea is not the worst thing for gift giving since the pet rock, because if it was, you'd have long since discarded it.

When I get an idea for a story, I'll turn it over in my mind (after jotting it down because my mind is not exactly a steel trap) and basically I immediately reject or consider it (I read fast, too :tongue

). I have found that the ones I reject don't always stay rejected, they keep popping up and I have these little internal arguments as to why the idea is crap or no. Some become keepers but most don't.

It sounds to me like you're ahead of my game in that you've gone beyond the reject stage and believe in it. So no, I don't think the idea is something you're ready to quit, because if you really believed that you wouldn't be asking, you'd already know!

Seriously though, I can't predict the outcome, but I wish you lots of luck in getting it to work. I agree with seun, I think you've gone beyond the chuck it stage and that says a lot. I don't know if you're an outliner or not, but maybe a more detailed story sketch will get that lightbulb on. Or if you are willing to share, post some thoughts and folks here can help you sort it out.

And I think you might just manage to pull it off, I have faith in you!

:Sun:

Antony B · Dec 3, 2007

When you finish a story or a novel and it hasn't worked, the advice is always to put it aside and work on something fresh.

I'd say the same is with ideas. I've plenty of ideas that have lent themselves to a number of false starts and instead I've moved onto an idea that is working.

I've not got rid of those past ideas. I leave them at the back of my mind to settle or mature or distill. Sometimes they'll even interact with each other, creating new ideas. I rarely think about them seriously except during daydream moments on public transport or as I drift off to sleep.

Then, once in a while, perhaps when I'm washing the dishes or wandering the supermarket, the idea will jump up in a new form and I'll exclaim "Of course! It needs to be told from the POV of the cat!"

Zelenka · Dec 3, 2007

Antony B said:
When you finish a story or a novel and it hasn't worked, the advice is always to put it aside and work on something fresh.

I'd say the same is with ideas. I've plenty of ideas that have lent themselves to a number of false starts and instead I've moved onto an idea that is working.

I've not got rid of those past ideas. I leave them at the back of my mind to settle or mature or distill. Sometimes they'll even interact with each other, creating new ideas. I rarely think about them seriously except during daydream moments on public transport or as I drift off to sleep.

Then, once in a while, perhaps when I'm washing the dishes or wandering the supermarket, the idea will jump up in a new form and I'll exclaim "Of course! It needs to be told from the POV of the cat!"

That's what usually happens with me. My only concern with this particular idea is that it's one I've had for years and it's already had, I think, four attempts at being written. It may be that I just haven't found the right POV or something, but just because I've tried it a lot and in different ways, I wondered if it's the idea.

narnia · Dec 3, 2007

Antony B said:
When you finish a story or a novel and it hasn't worked, the advice is always to put it aside and work on something fresh.

I'd say the same is with ideas. I've plenty of ideas that have lent themselves to a number of false starts and instead I've moved onto an idea that is working.

I've not got rid of those past ideas. I leave them at the back of my mind to settle or mature or distill. Sometimes they'll even interact with each other, creating new ideas. I rarely think about them seriously except during daydream moments on public transport or as I drift off to sleep.

Then, once in a while, perhaps when I'm washing the dishes or wandering the supermarket, the idea will jump up in a new form and I'll exclaim "Of course! It needs to be told from the POV of the cat!"

Or in my case 'cats'!

My (disturbed) mind works the same way!

OddButInteresting · Dec 3, 2007

Never

I'll explain in metaphor:

You're contemplating what to have for dinner one night. You raid the pantry, the fridge, the cupboards. You have some brocolli, a bottle of red wine, a few potatoes, and a couple of onions.

'Ah,' you say. 'I think I fancy a casserole this evening.'

So you get to work. You wash, peel, slice, dice - then it suddenly hits you:

'Bugger! I haven't got any meat!'

You decide to take a breather and think for a moment. It's gone four, and assuming that this is a Sunday, the shops are closed.

Utterly dismayed, you decide to continue preparing your protein-deprived meal. You give it one last rinse, throw it in the pan, strike up the hob, then have a sit down while you wait for the vegetables to par-boil.

It is during this break that you think to yourself, 'If only I'd frozen some of that left-over beef from the stir fry I had the other night...'

Explanation for those who, like myself, are probably confused by the above:

Ideas never die. They may not survive in their entirety, but one day you may realise that an aspect of said idea would fit nicely in a future project.

What you don't want is to get there, get started, then suddenly realise that something you had in mind some time ago would've been perfect to include, but you have since forgotten about it.

It happens to the best of us.

Zelenka · Dec 3, 2007

OddButInteresting said:
Ideas never die. They may not survive in their entirety, but one day you may realise that an aspect of said idea would fit nicely in a future project.

What you don't want is to get there, get started, then suddenly realise that something you had in mind some time ago would've been perfect to include, but you have since forgotten about it.

It happens to the best of us.

Does that still apply though to stuff you've tried four or five different ways already? That's my worry, not so much that the idea isn't working in one instance, more that it's not working in any version I try, yet I still like the idea.

reenkam · Dec 3, 2007

I think I understand, a least a little, how you feel.

I started a project Oct 2006. I was real excited about it and started writing and blasted through 2, maybe 3 chapters. Then it just felt wrong. In Nov 2006, I started over, got real into it, blasted through 2 chapters, and stopped. I waited a while, wrote more chapters, and stopped again. Then I tossed that out, tried a third time, and once again got lost. Then I tried switching the POV. This time I was really, really into it, blasted through something like 50k words, and then it crashed and burned cause it just felt wrong. (This was in Aug 2007). So I waited, then went back to it recently, dropped something like 20k, fixed the beginning, and tried again and finished it off in November.

So it wasn't until the fourth or fifth try that I was able to come up with something, but I'm really happy with the result now and it's doing pretty well with queries. So I'm glad I kept at it and kept trying.

My suggstion would be to keep the idea, and to keep trying for it, but not to make it your only WIP or even the priority. Work on something else, and just come back to this one when you have time or have an idea. Cut and add, delete and switch around. I started and finished 5 other projects between the time I started and finished the aforementioned work. I think I just needed some space, or time to think about it. Maybe you're the same way.

scarletpeaches · Dec 3, 2007

Ideas are never rubbish. Writing is.

Sometimes I've tried to write a story before I've had the skills to do it justice.

Zelenka · Dec 3, 2007

scarletpeaches said:
Ideas are never rubbish. Writing is.

Sometimes I've tried to write a story before I've had the skills to do it justice.

That was kind of what made me write the last draft of the cursed idea of doom. The first couple of versions were written before I'd looked into the do's and don'ts of writing in any depth and so there were all sorts of things in there that I'd get ripped for, likes of head-hopping and cliches galore. That's what surprised me when the latest version turned out to be awful - I actually thought it was okay and that I had honed my skills enough to tackle something like it.

I was worried that maybe I should just let it die, but from responses here, I'll leave it in the hard drive's folder of forgotten WIPs for a while. I'm actually going back to the setting-country (Egypt) next July again so what I might do is instead of going there with specific places I want to visit for research, I'll see if the place speaks to me.

Thanks once again for putting up with my insecurities you guys

a_sharp · Dec 3, 2007

Jess, depends on what you mean by "idea." We all get ideas for a story, some of which we can only glimpse, others come full-fledged beginning to end. I rarely get the latter, but when I do, that's the only time I go to outline. And my form of outline is telling myself the story highlights in present tense as fast as I can lay it down. I don't stop until it's done, sleep or no. Usually it takes only a few hours.

What happens most often to me is my story outlining bogs down. Something doesn't work, alternatives dry up, and the idea gets shelved. A few of these I have revisited months and years later, always with a fresh take on the outcome. One is coming along nicely as five chapters of a WIP.

Sometimes when an idea pops in I start with the ending and make sure I understand the issues being resolved as I write a mind-stream. The reason for this is I can't really proceed with a full idea unless I know where it's headed. Tried that, blew up every time.

I agree with the others who counsel keeping the idea, maybe shelving it while stuck. I guess true abandonment is full erasure, which I did once to my endless regret.

Aslera · Dec 3, 2007

Ideas are always worthwhile...it's the presentation that usually makes people ill. If you don't have the right 'vehicle', set the idea aside but don't give it up. If there was something wrong with the basic concept in the idea, you would have immediately chucked it.

(as I mentioned in another thread, I'm on version 9 of the opening of my WIP...I am very stuck on this idea, it was just a matter of finding the right way to present it).

Zelenka · Dec 3, 2007

a_sharp said:
Jess, depends on what you mean by "idea." We all get ideas for a story, some of which we can only glimpse, others come full-fledged beginning to end. I rarely get the latter, but when I do, that's the only time I go to outline. And my form of outline is telling myself the story highlights in present tense as fast as I can lay it down. I don't stop until it's done, sleep or no. Usually it takes only a few hours.

I suppose I mean premise rather than idea, maybe. I just meant as opposed to a full WIP. What I have is a basic plot, which has altered from version to version but retains a little core of key elements each time.

What happens most often to me is my story outlining bogs down. Something doesn't work, alternatives dry up, and the idea gets shelved. A few of these I have revisited months and years later, always with a fresh take on the outcome. One is coming along nicely as five chapters of a WIP.

Sometimes when an idea pops in I start with the ending and make sure I understand the issues being resolved as I write a mind-stream. The reason for this is I can't really proceed with a full idea unless I know where it's headed. Tried that, blew up every time.

I outline meticulously then nine times out of ten I don't look at it when I'm actually writing anyway. It helps though to get the basic flow of the story into my head before I start typing. I am the same though in that I can't really go on with an idea if I don't know where it's headed. I have great difficulty with endings and generally screw it up, so now I make sure I know before I start writing.

scottaz · Dec 3, 2007

Your original question reminded me of an article that Orson Scott Card wrote.

Here it is: Linky

It's about Beginnings. He wrote, I think, three or four different openings to a novel before finding the right voice, POV, etc. It's a good read.

Zelenka · Dec 3, 2007

scottaz said:
Your original question reminded me of an article that Orson Scott Card wrote.

Here it is: Linky

It's about Beginnings. He wrote, I think, three or four different openings to a novel before finding the right voice, POV, etc. It's a good read.

That's a really good article, thanks for posting. Actually it's a lot of help for another project I have going as well.

funidream · Dec 3, 2007

I don't understand. Why does the idea have to die?
Why can't you just let it linger until you are ready for it?

I think everyone has half-baked ideas clattering around. I do. What's the harm?

Zelenka · Dec 3, 2007

funidream said:
I don't understand. Why does the idea have to die?
Why can't you just let it linger until you are ready for it?

I think everyone has half-baked ideas clattering around. I do. What's the harm?

What I meant was, if you have an idea you've tried to write a lot of times and every WIP with that idea has failed, is it time to put that particular idea to bed, because the reason those WIPs fail is because there is something flawed with the idea. What I was asking was, how do you know when the premise / idea is bad, as opposed to just not having the right vehicle to present itself.

David I · Dec 3, 2007

JessRamage said:
What I meant was, if you have an idea you've tried to write a lot of times and every WIP with that idea has failed, is it time to put that particular idea to bed, because the reason those WIPs fail is because there is something flawed with the idea.

As WC Fields said, "If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. If you still don't succeed, give up. There's no point making a damn fool of yourself."

Sorry. I don't really mean that. I just like the quote.

If you've tried to write it many times in succession, or over the period of a year or two, I'd guess that in some way you aren't ready for it...yet. Put it on the shelf and work on something else. Perhaps it will wither away. Perhaps it will call to you with a solution.

I don't think there are such things as bad ideas, just bad execution.

Well, I take that back. There are bad ideas. Police Academy 3. Andrew Llyod Webber's Starlight Express. Remaking Psycho. But ideas as bad as those are rare.

I'm guessing your idea isn't bad, but difficult. If your idea is bad, you belong in Hollywood. If your idea is difficult, put it on the back burner and let it simmer.

When do you quit an idea?

Zelenka

Going home!

seun

Horror Man

Zelenka

Going home!

seun

Horror Man

narnia

Antony B

Born to lurk

Zelenka

Going home!

narnia

OddButInteresting

Officially a practicing Novelist!

Zelenka

Going home!

reenkam

aka cupcake

scarletpeaches

Zelenka

Going home!

a_sharp

Somebody give me an A

Aslera

Not an exact science

Zelenka

Going home!

scottaz

Silence! I kill you!

Zelenka

Going home!

funidream

Zelenka

Going home!

David I