Posting work

[Joe Calabrese]

Hey all,

Just a quick poll to see what you think and to perhaps convince the "powers that be" to consider a new screenwriting forum specificaly for posting your work, exclusive to screenwriting.

Yeah or Nay?

[Nivvie]

I voted yes, as although in forums where a lot of people know each other and may take feelings too much into account, on sites purely there for script posting there is often a lot of nastiness or are possibly moderated into the ground.

I always thought writing forums should be like writing cirlces, those things that most of us don't have near us or the time to attend.

[dpaterso]

I'm a "don't know" -- what are the advantages, if any, over simply inviting people to post loglines and pages in this forum? Would separating screenwriting discussion (which often wanes) from script pages get us anything? Is there enough traffic to justify two different forums? Factor that into a multi-choice poll, will ya?

-Derek
My Web Page - naked women, bestial sex, and whopping big lies. (http://hometown.aol.co.uk/DPaterson57)

[Joe Calabrese]

My concern is that this forum is meant to encourage open discussions on screenwriting, its craft, business, etc...

Lately, it has been turning into a posting forum and it's a bad habit to get into. Besides, it clutters the forum for those other discussions.

Technically there is a post your work (Share Your Work) forum here, but many screenwriters I've talked to don't want to post there because there are novelists, poets and other writers who may not give appropiate feedback for such a specific, structured medium which they won't understand.

Now if we separate the two types of posts, it will be neater, more focused and those who don't want to critique don't have to be bothered in the main forum.

Sorry I didn't put up a "maybe." Leave the poll blank and put a post instead and I'll factor it in when I submit my report.

[randesq]

I don't know, either way, most writers (including myself) who use this place have a general disregard for rules Joe. Why fence in an area when I imagine most writers are learning as much, if not more from the commentary on the pages posted. I think judging a perspective of the poster on his/her commentary can only help a reader gain more insight into the pages.

I mean, we all know that done deal and other simliar watering holes exist - why do people choose to post here? Maybe keeping all the garbage in one bin isn't such a bad idea.

[Optimus]

I don't really see the problem in having pages posted in this forum. Doesn't bother me.

[Maryn]

Separate places for genre work--from mystery to screenwriting--make a lot more sense than posting at Share Your Work. A poet or tech writer with the best intentions probably can't offer a screenwriter or a mystery novelist any useful input.

I, too, find that a board that combines scripts or scenes whose writers seek critique with messages about writing the genre fairly unwieldly.

There's a similar thread happening on the mystery board, FYI, where the writers seek to separate their genre for review and comment by their peers rather than by writers at large.

Maryn

[Joe Calabrese]

There in lies the rub.

Technically we are supposed to use the "Share Your Work" Forum (that's what it's there for).

But screenwriters don't want their work critiqued by those novelist types. What the hell do they know about formatting, three act structure, etc...

So rather than force you guys into posting stuff there (which again I say that is what your supposed to do), I proposed a separate screenwriters share your work forum to the Gods who run this board. They are hemming and hawing over my request.

So, ultimately you must decide.

Do you want to have your own place to post work for critique by and for screenwriters?

or...

Do you want to have your work mixed in with the novels, poetry, mystery, horror and everything else-- to be read and critiqued by EVERYONE?

[maestrowork]

My question is, would people use the forum? So far, in recent months, I've only seen a handful of people posting their WIPs -- some shredded to pieces by others -- vig, Caroyles, Scripter(?)... Would people start using it if it's available? Would we have traffic there?

It'd be a big waste of space if there are only 6 threads in the forum over a period of 3 months...

One thing I learned from mod'ing SYW: it takes guts for people to open up and post their WIPs. And not a lot of people are willing to do that. It also takes maturity to offer and take crits. If we're not careful, it could turn ugly really fast. That's why there are specific ground rules in SYW so that people don't start stomping on each other's toes.

Take all that into consideration in determining what you want to do with crits...

[MacAllister]

oh sure...force us novelist types to come HERE if we wanna learn about stuff like three-act-structure, etc...

[vig]

it would be great to have a separate forum that writers could go to and get their brains beat in. who cares about if your toes get stepped on. we don't have toes, this is the internet.

you start a seaprate forum and i'll post my freakin' third grade diary goddammit.
i'll post till the cows come home. hell not only will i post but i will give feedback that would make the devil blush. you hear me pyle.

vig

[Lord_Galvatron]

That would be a concern. Will it be a downloadable PDF file or just a cut -n- paste up on the screen that will take most of the screen?

[maestrowork]

I'll suggest simple text. With file attachments we'll be dealing with incompatible software, version, plus viruses, all sort of things.

[Nivvie]

My question is, would people use the forum? So far, in recent months, I've only seen a handful of people posting their WIPs -- some shredded to pieces by others -- vig, Caroyles, Scripter(?)... Would people start using it if it's available? Would we have traffic there?

It'd be a big waste of space if there are only 6 threads in the forum over a period of 3 months...

One thing I learned from mod'ing SYW: it takes guts for people to open up and post their WIPs. And not a lot of people are willing to do that. It also takes maturity to offer and take crits. If we're not careful, it could turn ugly really fast. That's why there are specific ground rules in SYW so that people don't start stomping on each other's toes.

Take all that into consideration in determining what you want to do with crits...


Definitely yes to the groundrules.
There would have to be nothing but constructive comments.
It might well be a lot of work for the screenplay mod to make sure it didn't dissolve into violence, or maybe it will be fine?

It might be an idea to make it a rule that only those who have posted their own work are allowed to comment.

[dpaterso]

Well see, there ya go, there's the problem right away -- play nice, kids, only say warm fuzzy things to each other, let's all hold virtual hands and pray for world peace.

Feedback needs to be a bit more realistic than that, folks. This is not a gentle polite sport, there are no consolation prizes, no pats on the back for a "jolly good try." Alas, constructive comments of necessity must be harsher and a hell of a lot more realistic than you're used to seeing in fluffy bunny world.

"You're kidding yourself if you think this is ever going to appear on film," is a constructive comment.

"For the love of God, read dozens of screenplays and see how they work before you even think about writing more pages," is another.

"What the hell is this crap you keep posting?" sort of straddles the line between genteel manners and ill manners, but in the real world it's damn good advice, a cry for the author to sit up and take notice, that readers are unwilling to put up with anything less than the author's absolute best -- that the first-pass drivel you've hastily typed within the last half-hour and hurriedly posted without even spellchecking simply does not pass muster.

Submit substandard writing in the real world and you won't even get a reply, never mind a pat on the back. Things should turn ugly. Ugly writing demands an ugly response. The best feedback I've received has been ugly. But once I wiped away the tears and blew my nose, its value became apparent.

This rant brought to you by Rants R Us, a Bunched Panties subsiduary.

-Derek
My Web Page - naked women, bestial sex, and whopping big lies. (http://hometown.aol.co.uk/DPaterson57)

[Optimus]

All good and valid points, Derek.

However, as you may well know on this board, people don't want to hear that their work sucks. They want you to smell their butt and say it's roses.

This was more than evident when the wolfpack here ganged on me for being honest, though blunt, with Caroyles.

"Be nice!" and "You really need to work on your delivery" were some of what was spewed at me. I was being helpful and gave very sound advice. THAT, to me, IS being nice.

I never once said, "you suck. Give up."

Funny, though, how now in Caroyles' latest thread, those same naysayers are regurgitating the exact advice I gave Caroyles two weeks ago.

Digressing, though...

It seems, to me, that some here have very thin skins. My problem with people posting pages (on this board) is that you can't be honest. You have to drink the kool-aid and tell them that they're doing great or that they're getting better, regardless of whether or not they actually are.

If we had a separate forum for screenwriting pages, I have little doubt that these same "Only tell them it's good" rules would be in effect. That helps no one. I agree that there should be no insults posted, but...good grief...we seem to have a ban on honesty and realism here. That would need to be different for a new forum to exist and actually be helpful.

Some people hate Simon Cowell on American Idol, but he always speaks the truth.

The losers on that show are the ones who only want to hear what Paula says.

The winners are the ones who listen to what Simon says.

[dpaterso]

I'm not trying to get into your pants or anything, Optimus, but you'll maybe have noted I wasn't part of the wolfpack. The about-face of your detractors twisted my guts, man. I looked up at the heavens and cried, "Why? Why?! WHY?"

Simon Cowell is above all a realist. He's looking at these acts and thinking, "Am I willing to spend MY money to make them into a star?" I suspect production companies have the same attitude, "Are we willing to spend OUR money to make this into a film?" Substandard acts don't get asked back.

Reality sucks, but it's still reality and we should embrace it, realizing that whatever eye-watering comments we may receive in forum are nothing as compared to what awaits us in the real world. Why, compared to that nasty place, you're a fwuffy cute wittle kitten.

-Derek
My Web Page - naked women, bestial sex, and whopping big lies. (http://hometown.aol.co.uk/DPaterson57)

[Nivvie]

I think you can be honest and not drive someone to slash their wrists at the same time, unless they're a total wuss, in which case they brought it on themselves.In fact, I think it has more power.

It's very easy to disregard someone who just says your work is crap, as you immediately think that as they couldn't be bothered take it apart and tell you why, then why listen?

Now if someone tells you that you are unoriginal and spewing nothing but cliches, well, that could hurt, but seeing as it could well be true and bring about a change, constructive.


"You're kidding yourself if you think this is ever going to appear on film," is not a constructive comment. It doesn't construct change, just trashes it all.

"If you want this to appear on screen maybe you should learn a whole lot more about the screenwriting process and change everything.", is however, constructive.

[dpaterso]

"You're kidding yourself if you think this is ever going to appear on film," is not a constructive comment. It doesn't construct change, just trashes it all.
"If you want this to appear on screen maybe you should learn a whole lot more about the screenwriting process and change everything.", is however, constructive.

They're both constructive because they say much the same thing -- that the sample isn't working.

What you're talking about is diplomacy. Sure, people should diplomatic, even well-mannered, but not to the point of muddying whatever point they're making.

I have to tell ya, if some feeblewit decides to slash their wrists because it turns out their posted sample isn't the best, that is their problem. They really should seek another hobby. And therapy.

-Derek
My Web Page - naked women, bestial sex, and whopping big lies. (http://hometown.aol.co.uk/DPaterson57)

[Writing Again]

I have no problem with people posting pages in the regular screenwriting forum. I learn a lot from them -- Especially the one's I am not able to contribute to because of lack-a-know-how.

I voted for a separate share your work for screenwriters because I think if they are not posted here then they should not be mixed up with newbie novelists and short story writers who are confused enough as it is. Few newbies to novel writing appreciate discipline or are able to handle the acerbic attitudes of many screenwriters.

However I do not believe that is true of professional level novelists:




But screenwriters don't want their work critiqued by those novelist types. What the hell do they know about formatting, three act structure, etc...



Agreed most novelists are ignorant of the three act structure -- But a lot of us have been using it a long time before we ever got involved in screenwriting and many short story writers are adept at it, which is where I learned its usefulness. True, screenwriters tighten up and finesse the three act structure far beyond the needs of a novel, but that is no reason for a novelist to be ignorant of Aristotle's contributions to their art.

A novelist should understand story -- Either you have all the basic parts together or you do not.

What I'm saying is that an intelligent, thinking novelist can have something useful to contribute to the critique of a screenplay and a screenwriter can have something useful to contribute to the critique of a novel -- Both people after all are story tellers and the basis of either art is story which boils down to interesting characters involved in interesting events that challenge them.

[Writing Again]

"You're kidding yourself if you think this is ever going to appear on film," is not a constructive comment. It doesn't construct change, just trashes it all.
"If you want this to appear on screen maybe you should learn a whole lot more about the screenwriting process and change everything.", is however, constructive.

They're both constructive because they say much the same thing -- that the sample isn't working.

What you're talking about is diplomacy. Sure, people should diplomatic, even well-mannered, but not to the point of muddying whatever point they're making.

I have to tell ya, if some feeblewit decides to slash their wrists because it turns out their posted sample isn't the best, that is their problem. They really should seek another hobby. And therapy.

-Derek
My Web Page - naked women, bestial sex, and whopping big lies. (http://hometown.aol.co.uk/DPaterson57)

I think it is more than just diplomacy. I would tend to discard the first because I would not know if the crtitiquer were addressing my technique, my story, my style, my characters, formatting, or something less tangible such as "Might make a decent novel but is too subjective for a screenplay."

The newer the newbie the more guidence they need as to what specifically is being addressed.

When I first started writing short stories it drove me crazy when I received notes from editors saying "Plot needs tightening" or "Character is weak" and I did not understand what the editor was talking about. Of course they had no way of knowing I was an untrained kid winging it by the seat of my breeches with no coach in the corner to guide me.

[Denis Castellan]

"You're kidding yourself if you think this is ever going to appear on film," is a constructive comment.
Ok, I'm not a screenwriter or anything but I agree with Nivvie, this is not what I'd call 'constructive.'

"You're kidding yourself if you think this is ever going to appear on film because [technical reasons or whatever]" is constructive, even if not very polite or diplomatic.

Another thing... what does prevent non-novelists from criticizing novel-works that are posted in Share Your Work ? Do screen-writers criticize any of the works posted there ? If so, are they qualified for doing that ?

Although most of you certainly won't care, I'm sorry to say that if was screenwriting that had attracted me to AW, I probably would never have registered after reading the board.

[Joe Calabrese]

You can be honest here.

If something doesn't work go ahead, BUT say so as opinion or fact based on your own experiences. There is a way to say something does not demean the hard work the writer put into his project.

Whenever possible make it sound like opinion rather than fact. Give a negative but also give a positive too. It's good to know what does work so we don't cut it out accidently because no one said to keep it. Don't cuss or make personal attacks and keep it on the topic which is reviewing the script and only the script at hand.

Derek gives a hard and honest review here, but almost always puts IMHO. That reminds the reader that his things may sound ugly but he's no expert.

Let's face it... None of us are experts, none of us are making it big and even the best scripts get passed and the worst get sold.

Kangaroo Jack, Gigli, Catwoman, Harold and Kumar go to White Castle, to name a few. If we read those or those like it here, we would be giving the same "give it up" advice too. But they got them sold and made. They could care less now that a bunch of forum guys thought it was crap.

So, be honest and even brutal, but DON'T sound like a pompous *** who has just handed down the commandments and DO say things that will give the writer knowledge of use and hope.

[maestrowork]

Nobody says you have to lie to be nice. If you have to lie to be nice, or you have to be nasty to be truthful, then perhaps you should double check your personality for flaws.

That said, go to SYW and study a few crits there. People have been giving constructive criticism over there. There's a way to say "this is okay, but it doesn't work for me, and here's why." Not everything that was posted there got a standing ovation. If something doesn't work, just say "it doesn't work." No need to rub it in and say "this is a piece of s***."

A lot of people have given vig, for example, constructive criticism like "'BROKEN TEETH' doesn't work for me" instead of "'BROKEN TEETH'? It sucks, and you shouldn't even think of submitting this s***" -- you see the difference?

Just because it's the Internet doesn't make it OK to throw away social courtesy and civility.

Again, "playing nice" doesn't mean you have to lie or blindly applaud someone's work. Sometimes, it's a matter of choice of "not saying anything at all" if you have nothing constructive to say.

If you can't spare 5 minutes reading someone's script thoroughly, then offer specifics on why it works or not, then perhaps you shouldn't just casually throw in a statement like "this will never work." It doesn't do anyone any good.


We're all here to learn. Crap, if I could write a script like Charlie Kaufman, I wouldn't be posting my WIPs here for crits, would I? And if my script is crappy, tell me *why* (specifics, please) and how I can improve it, instead of a blanket statement like "This sucks. Should go back to film school."

The best screenwriters are also the best mentors. Try to be one.

[maestrowork]

"You're kidding yourself if you think this is ever going to appear on film because [technical reasons or whatever]" is constructive, even if not very polite or diplomatic.


Exactly. If you say "You're kidding yourself if you think this is ever going to appear on film" you're just stating your opinion without backing it up. Why? What makes you say that? It's not constructive because the poster would never know why it sucks.

But if you say "Because 1) the dialogue is stilted <site example from WIP> 2) it is not visual <site example> and 3) you need to fix your grammar <site example>" -- now that's constructive.

Some of you need to learn how to effectively critique someone. It can be a very helpful skill when you start to work collaboratively with other screenwriters. You would never say things like "this is never going to work" and walk out the door. You would say "and this is why... blah blah blah."

Most people's crits here are not "constructive" because they lack the second part of the equation. They tell you "this doesn't work" but they never tell you "why it doesn't work."

To me that kind of criticism is not constructive because it lacks credibility. Anyone can jump in and say "this doesn't work." Without backing it up with specifics, the critter has no credibility.

(Oh, and Simon Cowell is allowed to say stuff like "that's truly awful, you should not be allowed to sing again" because he's paid to do that -- and seeing those thin-skinned contestants crying and screaming for mommy is part of the fun of the show... it's cruel but hey! And Simon has established credentials)


Not everyone can be diplomatic and polite -- that's okay. But you need to have credibility, to offer specifics so that a statement like "this will never sell" will have weight.

[TwoKeys]

Perhaps it is my naivete gleaning through my amateuristic skin, but personally I don't get anything from "It sucks". When I ask someone to read through something and share their thoughts, I'm looking for thoughts on how to improve it, not just a flat out "yay or nay" response.

It may very well suck. But it will continue along the course of suckiness until someone tells me WHY or HOW it sucks. Only then will it begin to improve.

[Joe Calabrese]

I give coverage for hire and get several a month. If I were to do what many of you do, I would get a lot of stop payments on the checks.

For what it's worth and some of you may disagree or find source for fodder, here is a sample of a critique I recently did.

GRADE SHEET

CONCEPT: EXCELLENT
FORMATTING: GOOD
CHARACTERS: VERY GOOD
DIALOGUE: GOOD
STRUCTURE: VERY GOOD
CONFLICT: FAIR
STAKES: FAIR
BELIEVABILITY: VERY GOOD

GRADE: CONSIDER

NOTES:

OVERALL: A fresh, high concept story with obvious studio appeal. The opening scenes create immediate mystery and intrigue, drawing the reader in.

Max is a good protagonist – both sympathetic and strong. As the story progresses, the situation for him and becomes increasingly sympathetic and worrisome. This sense of jeopardy and danger creates rising tension that leads to a somewhat fulfilling climax. Indeed, the eerie, dramatic sequences and set pieces really deliver – which satisfies one of the most important conventions of the supernatural thriller genre. In addition, the dialogue is fairly well rendered although long at times. In addition, many times, the action is over-written, lending more towards a narrative story.

In short, title blanked for pricacy is a very compelling piece just needs some polishing, particularly in terms of the story’s structure, character development and formatting.

FORMATTING: I would say that this is one of your weakest points. You tend to overuse “we” in the action lines. Try to not use any camera or audience directions in a script. It pulls the reader out of your world.

Try not to overuse transitions. CUT TO’s are always assumed and never needed in a script.

Also, your writing is very good, but in a screenplay you don’t need to be so descriptive in your action lines. At times, the script reads like a novel and not a screenplay. Good rule to remember is: If you can’t see it or hear it—it doesn’t exist. Try not to write what Characters are thinking. Show—don’t tell.

CHARACTERS: Both, one of the story’s strong points and weakest. The main characters are introduced quickly and dramatically, which gives the story a strong forward momentum. In addition, they are well drawn but without clear goals and motivations. You included details that make these characters spring to life, such as Max trying to save a bug from going down the sink but he never realized the true mission or predicament he is in. This is a major flaw in his character. At one point, Max should realize that this is all a dream (or Limbo) and by saving this girl, he is in fact saving himself. The way it is now, he accomplishes his needs instinctively and achieves his goals by happenstance.

As well as adding to the story’s realism, the relationships between the characters are a wonderful source of tension and drama. This gives the screenplay a certain complexity and sophistication without sacrificing any of the pleasures of the genre. However, there needs to be better defined character names and relationships to their persona. I would name the wife and little girl at the beginning of the script This is a minor point but one that many readers will be turned off to.

There is a little confusion to whether Sandy is his wife and the Beautiful woman is the same as the woman in the beginning. Also, I would expect to see how these fantasy characters like Damon, Mike, Sandy, etc… came to be in Max’s head/soul. Like in the Wizard of Oz, whereas the characters have real life counterparts, I would have liked to see or at least get a good idea where these people came from—especially Sandy and Damon.

On another minor point, it seems like an opportunity in is missed to convey some more information about the technical aspects of his Coma and Memory loss. Sandy never brings it up and the Doctor and even Mathew deal with it very superficially. Especially in these CSI days, audiences love to get technobabble.

STRUCTURE: The story’s set up seamlessly establishes all of the elements important to the plot. This not only creates a strong believability, it also gives the story a real flow. The main and supporting characters are quickly introduced. Each main character has a clear goal that s/he works toward over the course of the story. Once Max wakes up and comes to the odd town he lives in with Sandy, the story achieves a real sense of rising tension. The screenplay also delivers a suitably dramatic climax and a swift resolution.

CONFLICT: A weakness. The story introduces jeopardy and drama from the very first scene. The tensions between the various characters keep scenes dynamic and engaging. The ultimate conflict is non existent. Max doesn’t have a true villain who is trying to thwart him. Damon is set up to be a villain, but does nothing to Max which can stop him from his goal. You have a lot of hinting but nothing is revealed or “hit on the head” to satisfy the conflict set up.

STAKES: On a personal level, all of the characters have a lot on the line. However, I never feel that Max or any other character is in great peril. This is one of the things that could the story gripping.

BELIEVABILITY: The world of the story is very well drawn. Indeed you include details, such as the description of the town and house that Max lives in, that bring the story to life and add to its realism. As a result, there are no concerns in this area. However, it does seem strange that there is an overly religious overtone without explaining it as fact in this town.

DIALOGUE: One of the screenplay’s strong suits. The majority of the characters have a distinct way of speaking. This creates strong character “voices” as well as keeping the dialogue dynamic and engaging. Character speeches are kept short and to the point, allowing the story to flow. In addition, the dialogue seems in keeping with the story’s time period, giving it a realistic feel. Nonetheless, there are some scenes in which the dialogue could be polished a little. At this stage it would be a good idea to go through and do a line-by-line edit. Good rule of thumb is to have no more than four lines of dialog at any one time. Less is more when it comes to good dialog. Damon is a good example of someone who tends to talk a lot. He should be a mysterious character who, if he speaks little and cryptic, can be more effective.

OTHER CONCERNS: The screenplay’s narrative description, although over written in places, is very well rendered – evocative, exciting and easy to follow. You might consider capitalizing key actions/images to make them POP OUT. This will make the action more dramatic and immediate. However, use this technique sparingly as it can become redundant or distracting if overused. Take a look at some recently produced screenplays in a similar tone and genre as your own story to see how this can be used effectively.

GRADE: CONSIDER

[maestrowork]

Joe, I worked as a script reader for a very short while, and that's kind of like the crit/recommendations I did. Basically, I couldn't just give a "yay" or "nay" -- I had to give specifics why I gave a thumb up or down.

[Denis Castellan]

Some of you need to learn how to effectively critique someone. It can be a very helpful skill when you start to work collaboratively with other screenwriters.
I believe it can even help you look at your own work from some new angle and help you improve your writing, even if only slightly.

[Denis Castellan]

For what it's worth and some of you may disagree or find source for fodder, here is a sample of a critique I recently did.
Just plain "Wow."

I guess I'd be the happiest guy in the world if I submitted some work and it was "rejected" that way. http://absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

[scripter1]

I would like to see some kind of standard critique form.


Grammar, spelling, typos : blah blah blah...
Script format : yada yada yada
Character faults: works / doesn't, improve/change, consider....
Dialog: try this, think about that, etc, etc


Additional comments._______________________________

It might be wise to ban words such as crap, sucks, and sh!t.
I don't think we should limit who can critique.


I do however believe that if someone posts WRONG advice that others should correct it and state their source.


We must also keep in mind that a portion of the feedback is opinion. It is one thing to say that you MUST all cap a characters name the first time they are intro'd and another to say, "I can't relate to this character."


Me, personally, I'm okay with most of the people who are likely to make comments and give feedback. I think there are enough of us here who are very vocal and that between us we can sort things out and keep things honest and reasonably friendly.


Those who flame should be admonished, then warned, then banned.
Those who react negatively to sound feedback, same thing.


Do we need a mod? Certainly.
Will there be fights? (I hope so. We are screenwriters, we thrive on conflict. If we don't experience it how can we ever write about it?)
Will people get offended and leave? Yes.


The ones who are real writers will stick it out and learn from it. It is those we want.


One thing I would like to see is pages posted by people who ARE working in Hollywood AND I would like to see the notes and feedback they are really getting from TRUE, CREDITED, LEGIT INDUSTRY people.

[randesq]

Why cater to those that need pep talks and jellybeans? Does very writer who posts pages need to heed the advice of every poster? Can't they filter the advice, critique, harsh words on their own? They HAVE to, it's an integral part of this industry. Every writer starts out like Robinson Crusoe, standed, isolated, hungry, ground floor on maslow's hierarchy... you have to invent the recipe for your own path and success. It can't be spoonfed.

Take any industry or business and look at the successes. Those that fell on their face, early and often, but were able to pick themselves up and redefine their model are the ones that succeeded.

I guarantee you every successful screenwriter has their own story laiden with a sackful of failure. And they built their style in their own lab, scratching, clawing, taking criticism so they could improve their work. No amount of encouragment is going to turn a cross handed tee ball player into Hank Aaron. Only the path that they choose themselves can do so.

Stick with one forum and maybe everyone will post under the guise that they can cull the advice that can help them and choose themselves how they can take constructive criticism. Patty cake isn't going to make pages better

[TwoKeys]

I agree with you randesq, "patty cake" isn't going to solve any problems. But if the purpose of critiquing a WIP is to solve problems, then isn't it also safe to say that being overly critical (under the guise of "being helpful") will also result in nothing being accomplished?

[vig]

i think if we stopped using the if 'this happened' it would be bad. i have not seen ONE CASE, not one case yet that a writer has said that sucks and the writer was left holding the bag, thinking... hey, why doe s this suck.

in every instance, down to the last person on this site who gave a critique it came down to this need works because................

the interpreation that the forum has or will degenerated into a blanket statementTHIS SUCKS, that we must guard against is a consipiracy theory and the lowest common demonitaor to why we should do something.

the reality of the situation may be the truth. show me one instance that we had a problem... one 'this sucks'.

the stark truth is not this sucks... it's a laundry list of what's wrong that is scathing.

"hey bobby, why didn't you like her".... she's ugly. now that's tasteless and that hasn't happened here.

"hey bobby, why didn't you like her.... there was to many things that didn't resonate with me 123456789.

non of that list said she was ugly, but all of them combined adds up to she's ugly. the mirror doesn't lie, it's the person looking at the mirror who lies.

vig

[Joe Calabrese]

All good points, but from my perspective as moderator I have some big concerns about the future of this forum.

1. When a new person comes to our board and sees people giving advice from the business end of a shotgun and posts with bickering, insults, name calling, etc... It doesnt look good. Why would they want to join our little community? They wouldn't as one person has already alluded to. Yes, be honest but some of you say things that are insulting and it doesn't look good for the rest of us.

2. We are already the butt of other forum's jokes. Wanna see a good fight or a bunch of babies argue? Go to the screenwriting room, they all say. This has got to change. We can be just as much a professional as a novelist or poet.

My job is to fascilitate and mentor not stricly as policeman.

[vig]

and another thing, if you break a mirror in your script, you still will be jinxed for seven years. so, be warned, if i read your script and there is a mirror broken, there is no ladder you can walk under or black cat you can cross to save you.

the above analysis is exactly the reason my coverage is the best. the in depth detail is incredible. for instance the other day a tree fell in the words, and i did hear it. i heard it loud and clear. i even heard the conversation of hte campers that walked by the tree before it fell. stuff like that is unheard of, you know what i mean... you got to strive to be your own person, like sprite.

vig

[vig]

whee is the name calling? i'm the main culprit for personal attacks and slanderous remarks. but i haven't said anything over here remotely like that and either has anyone else.

my opinion, you got the cart before the horse here joe. here is a bit information for you. i might be the most hated screen name on the net, no joke, could very well be, most of that is the road i paved with my 'i don't give a crap about your feelings approach.'

what that got me was a truly irratated fan base that would want nothing better than to rip my pages up. over the last three years that desire for writers to nitpick on every last minutia helped me get better as a writer, becase i literally examined every last comment and tested it. even the most experimental and blantant personal attack from another writer. a critique shows more about the critic, than the writer.

you know what, i survived. not only did i survive, i'm 'robowriter'.
so you can take that and shove it 'potsie'.

vig

[Joe Calabrese]

Actually I wasn't refering to you, Vig. Your one of the better ones.

[vig]

your family is from calabra so i like you. we are from palermo. i like that hairline, matches evrey uncle i ever had. did your family drop the 'calabrese' to try to look more american?

we dropped a couple vowels at the end of our name as well. our name is from a town a hundred miles above rome.

vig

[TwoKeys]

All I know is that the defensiveness of some is making me very reluctant to even bother. All Joe is looking for is a general consensus...he's looking out for what COULD happen. (If you've ever been a mod, you know how important this is.)

[Joe Calabrese]

My family is from Abruzzi, but I'm sure my ancestors came from Calabria originally and when moved to Abruzi became known as "Joe the Calabrese" which eventually became Joe Calabrese. And my real last name is still Calabrese I just shorted it for my nickname here.

[Denis Castellan]

I'm sure my ancestors came from Calabria originally and when moved to Abruzi became known as "Joe the Calabrese" which eventually became Joe Calabrese.

You mean all your ancestors were named "Joe" ? :confused: :D

[Joe Calabrese]

I don't know. I was just using my name as an example. If the first guy who moved there was Frank, then it would be Frank the Calabrese/Frank Calabrese.

In fact, many Norwegian names, like Ericson, come from Son of Eric.

Happy?

[maestrowork]

Reminds me Buckaroo Banzai... every alien's name is John....

:)

[Nivvie]

I don't know. I was just using my name as an example. If the first guy who moved there was Frank, then it would be Frank the Calabrese/Frank Calabrese.

In fact, many Norwegian names, like Ericson, come from Son of Eric.

Happy?

Whoo hoo for Scandinavian names, completely off topic, but I just love when a boy has the same name as his father, as in Magnus Magnusson.

[Maryn]

I agree with maestrowork, Joe, denis, Nivvie, and others who say that constructive critique is not the same as undeserved praise. Telling somebody their work is good when it isn't wastes the time of everybody involved, IMO. Telling them it's bad but omitting exactly why is just as worthless. How the hell is the writer supposed to fix "this doesn't work"?

If the goal of critique is to help the writer improve the work, then citing what doesn't work and why, specifically as in maestrowork's example, is the only way to be constructive while noting negatives. (I recommend praising what does work, too, so the writer can build on strengths while shoring up weaknesses.)

It's rare for me to completely disagree with maestrowork, but I do on one point--everyone can be diplomatic and polite. Most who aren't just don't bother.

In my critique group, we have the policy that negatives must be handled with tact and must be backed up by specific examples. We encourage positives to also use examples, but nobody stomps off in a huff when they'e omitted.

As new members come to us, we find that every single person whose critiques are rude or cruel has never been shown how to craft a critique that the writer finds helpful. Some apparently have never before been exposed to tact, either. After a few months, sometimes they'll sheepishly announce that they didn't even know critiques could be relatively painless.

Maryn, not nearly as genteel as this message sounds

[maestrowork]

It's rare for me to completely disagree with maestrowork, but I do on one point...

Oh, you suck!

Just kidding. ;)

[dpaterso]

"Actually I wasn't refering to you, Vig. Your one of the better ones."

Dammit Joe, I spattered Diet Coke all over my laptop! You hear that vig, you're one of the better ones! LOL! I mean that constructively.

"We are already the butt of other forum's jokes. Wanna see a good fight or a bunch of babies argue? Go to the screenwriting room, they all say."

Screenwriters are more passionate about their craft than other writers, that's all. (Hmm, I can't seem to find a smiley with its middle finger raised... probably just as well...)

-Derek
My Web Page - naked women, bestial sex, and whopping big lies. (http://hometown.aol.co.uk/DPaterson57)

[Joe Calabrese]

Okay, now that this has gone into a different direction, I'm gonna close this poll/thread.

From the poll and comments, I take it that some want a new forum for posting work, some don't and others are indifferent. I have read and appreciated all of your comments and/or concerns on the matter and will get back to you soon with a decision from the higher ups.

Now go write something and sell it, or if you want to hang out here for a while, remember to post other things besides your work. ;)