Posting work

I voted yes, as although in forums where a lot of people know each other and may take feelings too much into account, on sites purely there for script posting there is often a lot of nastiness or are possibly moderated into the ground.

I always thought writing forums should be like writing cirlces, those things that most of us don't have near us or the time to attend.

I'm a "don't know" -- what are the advantages, if any, over simply inviting people to post loglines and pages in this forum? Would separating screenwriting discussion (which often wanes) from script pages get us anything? Is there enough traffic to justify two different forums? Factor that into a multi-choice poll, will ya?

-Derek
My Web Page - naked women, bestial sex, and whopping big lies.

POV

I don't know, either way, most writers (including myself) who use this place have a general disregard for rules Joe. Why fence in an area when I imagine most writers are learning as much, if not more from the commentary on the pages posted. I think judging a perspective of the poster on his/her commentary can only help a reader gain more insight into the pages.

I mean, we all know that done deal and other simliar watering holes exist - why do people choose to post here? Maybe keeping all the garbage in one bin isn't such a bad idea.

I don't really see the problem in having pages posted in this forum. Doesn't bother me.

I like a separation

Separate places for genre work--from mystery to screenwriting--make a lot more sense than posting at Share Your Work. A poet or tech writer with the best intentions probably can't offer a screenwriter or a mystery novelist any useful input.

I, too, find that a board that combines scripts or scenes whose writers seek critique with messages about writing the genre fairly unwieldly.

There's a similar thread happening on the mystery board, FYI, where the writers seek to separate their genre for review and comment by their peers rather than by writers at large.

Maryn

My question is, would people use the forum? So far, in recent months, I've only seen a handful of people posting their WIPs -- some shredded to pieces by others -- vig, Caroyles, Scripter(?)... Would people start using it if it's available? Would we have traffic there?

It'd be a big waste of space if there are only 6 threads in the forum over a period of 3 months...

One thing I learned from mod'ing SYW: it takes guts for people to open up and post their WIPs. And not a lot of people are willing to do that. It also takes maturity to offer and take crits. If we're not careful, it could turn ugly really fast. That's why there are specific ground rules in SYW so that people don't start stomping on each other's toes.

Take all that into consideration in determining what you want to do with crits...

i'm either way

it would be great to have a separate forum that writers could go to and get their brains beat in. who cares about if your toes get stepped on. we don't have toes, this is the internet.

you start a seaprate forum and i'll post my freakin' third grade diary goddammit.
i'll post till the cows come home. hell not only will i post but i will give feedback that would make the devil blush. you hear me pyle.

vig

In what file format?

That would be a concern. Will it be a downloadable PDF file or just a cut -n- paste up on the screen that will take most of the screen?

I'll suggest simple text. With file attachments we'll be dealing with incompatible software, version, plus viruses, all sort of things.

maestrowork said:

My question is, would people use the forum? So far, in recent months, I've only seen a handful of people posting their WIPs -- some shredded to pieces by others -- vig, Caroyles, Scripter(?)... Would people start using it if it's available? Would we have traffic there?

It'd be a big waste of space if there are only 6 threads in the forum over a period of 3 months...

One thing I learned from mod'ing SYW: it takes guts for people to open up and post their WIPs. And not a lot of people are willing to do that. It also takes maturity to offer and take crits. If we're not careful, it could turn ugly really fast. That's why there are specific ground rules in SYW so that people don't start stomping on each other's toes.

Take all that into consideration in determining what you want to do with crits...

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Definitely yes to the groundrules.
There would have to be nothing but constructive comments.
It might well be a lot of work for the screenplay mod to make sure it didn't dissolve into violence, or maybe it will be fine?

It might be an idea to make it a rule that only those who have posted their own work are allowed to comment.

Well see, there ya go, there's the problem right away -- play nice, kids, only say warm fuzzy things to each other, let's all hold virtual hands and pray for world peace.

Feedback needs to be a bit more realistic than that, folks. This is not a gentle polite sport, there are no consolation prizes, no pats on the back for a "jolly good try." Alas, constructive comments of necessity must be harsher and a hell of a lot more realistic than you're used to seeing in fluffy bunny world.

"You're kidding yourself if you think this is ever going to appear on film," is a constructive comment.

"For the love of God, read dozens of screenplays and see how they work before you even think about writing more pages," is another.

"What the hell is this crap you keep posting?" sort of straddles the line between genteel manners and ill manners, but in the real world it's damn good advice, a cry for the author to sit up and take notice, that readers are unwilling to put up with anything less than the author's absolute best -- that the first-pass drivel you've hastily typed within the last half-hour and hurriedly posted without even spellchecking simply does not pass muster.

Submit substandard writing in the real world and you won't even get a reply, never mind a pat on the back. Things should turn ugly. Ugly writing demands an ugly response. The best feedback I've received has been ugly. But once I wiped away the tears and blew my nose, its value became apparent.

This rant brought to you by Rants R Us, a Bunched Panties subsiduary.

-Derek
My Web Page - naked women, bestial sex, and whopping big lies.

All good and valid points, Derek.

However, as you may well know on this board, people don't want to hear that their work sucks. They want you to smell their butt and say it's roses.

This was more than evident when the wolfpack here ganged on me for being honest, though blunt, with Caroyles.

"Be nice!" and "You really need to work on your delivery" were some of what was spewed at me. I was being helpful and gave very sound advice. THAT, to me, IS being nice.

I never once said, "you suck. Give up."

Funny, though, how now in Caroyles' latest thread, those same naysayers are regurgitating the exact advice I gave Caroyles two weeks ago.

Digressing, though...

It seems, to me, that some here have very thin skins. My problem with people posting pages (on this board) is that you can't be honest. You have to drink the kool-aid and tell them that they're doing great or that they're getting better, regardless of whether or not they actually are.

If we had a separate forum for screenwriting pages, I have little doubt that these same "Only tell them it's good" rules would be in effect. That helps no one. I agree that there should be no insults posted, but...good grief...we seem to have a ban on honesty and realism here. That would need to be different for a new forum to exist and actually be helpful.

Some people hate Simon Cowell on American Idol, but he always speaks the truth.

The losers on that show are the ones who only want to hear what Paula says.

The winners are the ones who listen to what Simon says.

I'm not trying to get into your pants or anything, Optimus, but you'll maybe have noted I wasn't part of the wolfpack. The about-face of your detractors twisted my guts, man. I looked up at the heavens and cried, "Why? Why?! WHY?"

Simon Cowell is above all a realist. He's looking at these acts and thinking, "Am I willing to spend MY money to make them into a star?" I suspect production companies have the same attitude, "Are we willing to spend OUR money to make this into a film?" Substandard acts don't get asked back.

Reality sucks, but it's still reality and we should embrace it, realizing that whatever eye-watering comments we may receive in forum are nothing as compared to what awaits us in the real world. Why, compared to that nasty place, you're a fwuffy cute wittle kitten.

-Derek
My Web Page - naked women, bestial sex, and whopping big lies.

I think you can be honest and not drive someone to slash their wrists at the same time, unless they're a total wuss, in which case they brought it on themselves.In fact, I think it has more power.

It's very easy to disregard someone who just says your work is crap, as you immediately think that as they couldn't be bothered take it apart and tell you why, then why listen?

Now if someone tells you that you are unoriginal and spewing nothing but cliches, well, that could hurt, but seeing as it could well be true and bring about a change, constructive.


"You're kidding yourself if you think this is ever going to appear on film," is not a constructive comment. It doesn't construct change, just trashes it all.

"If you want this to appear on screen maybe you should learn a whole lot more about the screenwriting process and change everything.", is however, constructive.

"You're kidding yourself if you think this is ever going to appear on film," is not a constructive comment. It doesn't construct change, just trashes it all.
"If you want this to appear on screen maybe you should learn a whole lot more about the screenwriting process and change everything.", is however, constructive.

They're both constructive because they say much the same thing -- that the sample isn't working.

What you're talking about is diplomacy. Sure, people should diplomatic, even well-mannered, but not to the point of muddying whatever point they're making.

I have to tell ya, if some feeblewit decides to slash their wrists because it turns out their posted sample isn't the best, that is their problem. They really should seek another hobby. And therapy.

-Derek
My Web Page - naked women, bestial sex, and whopping big lies.

I have no problem with people posting pages in the regular screenwriting forum. I learn a lot from them -- Especially the one's I am not able to contribute to because of lack-a-know-how.

I voted for a separate share your work for screenwriters because I think if they are not posted here then they should not be mixed up with newbie novelists and short story writers who are confused enough as it is. Few newbies to novel writing appreciate discipline or are able to handle the acerbic attitudes of many screenwriters.

However I do not believe that is true of professional level novelists:

joecalabre said:

But screenwriters don't want their work critiqued by those novelist types. What the hell do they know about formatting, three act structure, etc...

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Agreed most novelists are ignorant of the three act structure -- But a lot of us have been using it a long time before we ever got involved in screenwriting and many short story writers are adept at it, which is where I learned its usefulness. True, screenwriters tighten up and finesse the three act structure far beyond the needs of a novel, but that is no reason for a novelist to be ignorant of Aristotle's contributions to their art.

A novelist should understand story -- Either you have all the basic parts together or you do not.

What I'm saying is that an intelligent, thinking novelist can have something useful to contribute to the critique of a screenplay and a screenwriter can have something useful to contribute to the critique of a novel -- Both people after all are story tellers and the basis of either art is story which boils down to interesting characters involved in interesting events that challenge them.

dpaterso said:

"You're kidding yourself if you think this is ever going to appear on film," is not a constructive comment. It doesn't construct change, just trashes it all.
"If you want this to appear on screen maybe you should learn a whole lot more about the screenwriting process and change everything.", is however, constructive.

They're both constructive because they say much the same thing -- that the sample isn't working.

What you're talking about is diplomacy. Sure, people should diplomatic, even well-mannered, but not to the point of muddying whatever point they're making.

I have to tell ya, if some feeblewit decides to slash their wrists because it turns out their posted sample isn't the best, that is their problem. They really should seek another hobby. And therapy.

-Derek
My Web Page - naked women, bestial sex, and whopping big lies.

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I think it is more than just diplomacy. I would tend to discard the first because I would not know if the crtitiquer were addressing my technique, my story, my style, my characters, formatting, or something less tangible such as "Might make a decent novel but is too subjective for a screenplay."

The newer the newbie the more guidence they need as to what specifically is being addressed.

When I first started writing short stories it drove me crazy when I received notes from editors saying "Plot needs tightening" or "Character is weak" and I did not understand what the editor was talking about. Of course they had no way of knowing I was an untrained kid winging it by the seat of my breeches with no coach in the corner to guide me.

"You're kidding yourself if you think this is ever going to appear on film," is a constructive comment.

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Ok, I'm not a screenwriter or anything but I agree with Nivvie, this is not what I'd call 'constructive.'

"You're kidding yourself if you think this is ever going to appear on film because [technical reasons or whatever]" is constructive, even if not very polite or diplomatic.

Another thing... what does prevent non-novelists from criticizing novel-works that are posted in Share Your Work ? Do screen-writers criticize any of the works posted there ? If so, are they qualified for doing that ?

Although most of you certainly won't care, I'm sorry to say that if was screenwriting that had attracted me to AW, I probably would never have registered after reading the board.

Nobody says you have to lie to be nice. If you have to lie to be nice, or you have to be nasty to be truthful, then perhaps you should double check your personality for flaws.

That said, go to SYW and study a few crits there. People have been giving constructive criticism over there. There's a way to say "this is okay, but it doesn't work for me, and here's why." Not everything that was posted there got a standing ovation. If something doesn't work, just say "it doesn't work." No need to rub it in and say "this is a piece of s***."

A lot of people have given vig, for example, constructive criticism like "'BROKEN TEETH' doesn't work for me" instead of "'BROKEN TEETH'? It sucks, and you shouldn't even think of submitting this s***" -- you see the difference?

Just because it's the Internet doesn't make it OK to throw away social courtesy and civility.

Again, "playing nice" doesn't mean you have to lie or blindly applaud someone's work. Sometimes, it's a matter of choice of "not saying anything at all" if you have nothing constructive to say.

If you can't spare 5 minutes reading someone's script thoroughly, then offer specifics on why it works or not, then perhaps you shouldn't just casually throw in a statement like "this will never work." It doesn't do anyone any good.


We're all here to learn. Crap, if I could write a script like Charlie Kaufman, I wouldn't be posting my WIPs here for crits, would I? And if my script is crappy, tell me *why* (specifics, please) and how I can improve it, instead of a blanket statement like "This sucks. Should go back to film school."

The best screenwriters are also the best mentors. Try to be one.

"You're kidding yourself if you think this is ever going to appear on film because [technical reasons or whatever]" is constructive, even if not very polite or diplomatic.

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Exactly. If you say "You're kidding yourself if you think this is ever going to appear on film" you're just stating your opinion without backing it up. Why? What makes you say that? It's not constructive because the poster would never know why it sucks.

But if you say "Because 1) the dialogue is stilted <site example from WIP> 2) it is not visual <site example> and 3) you need to fix your grammar <site example>" -- now that's constructive.

Some of you need to learn how to effectively critique someone. It can be a very helpful skill when you start to work collaboratively with other screenwriters. You would never say things like "this is never going to work" and walk out the door. You would say "and this is why... blah blah blah."

Most people's crits here are not "constructive" because they lack the second part of the equation. They tell you "this doesn't work" but they never tell you "why it doesn't work."

To me that kind of criticism is not constructive because it lacks credibility. Anyone can jump in and say "this doesn't work." Without backing it up with specifics, the critter has no credibility.

(Oh, and Simon Cowell is allowed to say stuff like "that's truly awful, you should not be allowed to sing again" because he's paid to do that -- and seeing those thin-skinned contestants crying and screaming for mommy is part of the fun of the show... it's cruel but hey! And Simon has established credentials)


Not everyone can be diplomatic and polite -- that's okay. But you need to have credibility, to offer specifics so that a statement like "this will never sell" will have weight.