Does your novel choose you?

scottaz · Dec 2, 2007

This may sound like a strange question, but I've been struggling with my WIP for the past couple of weeks and this thought popped into my head this afternoon.

I've got several different ideas/stories going around right now. I've put two of them aside to work on a third, but this one seems to be stalling on me. As much as I love my current characters and story idea, the novel is progressing like sludge. Meanwhile, one of my filed ideas is calling out to me from behind the closed drawer, and I'm tempted to pick it up and run with it.

Has anyone else ever experienced this? Do we really decide what we want to write, or do our novels tell us when they're ready to be birthed?

KTC · Dec 2, 2007

My fiction always chooses me. I don't give myself credit for anything I write. It writes itself through me. Sometimes when I start a novel, I have no idea what it's going to be about. When I get to exciting parts I can't wait to type out what will happen next...just so I'll know what happens next.

When something is knocking on your door, pick it up...run with it.

Zelenka · Dec 2, 2007

I get this all the time, maybe because I also tend to have a lot of projects simmering at once. I do that deliberately now - let any ideas come, jot them in the relevant notebook, then see which one grabs at me the most. My current WIP came totally out of the blue though, even with that method. I had an idea to combine elements of two historical WIPs that were set in roughly the same era, and had a vague idea about some supernatural stuff to add to glue them together but hadn't really thought about it and just shelved the stuff. Then something over the last few weeks must've drawn that WIP's attention because it came bounding out going 'write me, I dare ya!'

Not complaining though. I haven't been able to write anything beyond a few pages of a (really lousy) YA fantasy for NaNo since about September or something, but this WIP not only wanted attention, it actually wanted written as well. (Usually I have to plot for weeks before I feel comfortable enough to write it).

Judg · Dec 2, 2007

Sounds like standard distraction to me. You can play musical WIPs for the rest of your life that way.

I refuse to start anything else until this WIP (well, the first draft) is finished. In the meanwhile, I jot down any other ideas that come to me and tell them they have to wait their turn. What good is it to have ideas if I never bring them to completion?

joyce · Dec 2, 2007

This seems to always happen to me also. My WIP now started just like that. I already was probably 30% into another WIP when this great idea came to me and I had to write it down. If I'm not into what I'm writing about and another idea hits me, I always have to go with the new idea. The sad thing is, I hardly ever go back and finish the first one. It gets scrapped in a drawer while I'm on to newer projects.

scottaz · Dec 2, 2007

Judg said:
Sounds like standard distraction to me. You can play musical WIPs for the rest of your life that way.

Heh, you may be right on this. I've had distraction problems recently.

JessRamage said:
Then something over the last few weeks must've drawn that WIP's attention because it came bounding out going 'write me, I dare ya!'

This is exactly what happened to me! An idea that I've been honing for years finally told me it's ready. How's that for pressure?

KTC said:
My fiction always chooses me. I don't give myself credit for anything I write. It writes itself through me. Sometimes when I start a novel, I have no idea what it's going to be about.

This is my usual M.O. I never outline, but I am starting to plan several moves ahead of myself. That way the story as a whole stays fresh and exciting.

joyce said:
The sad thing is, I hardly ever go back and finish the first one. It gets scrapped in a drawer while I'm on to newer projects.

Ooh, that is sad. Is there an abandoned novels fund?

Simple Living · Dec 2, 2007

I'm afraid I'm going to offer the dissenting opinion. Ideas and novels are wonderful things. How they're written can seem to be mysterious. People have ideas and use words every day, but arranging them in a way to capture people's hearts and imaginations is a gift.

I think the mystery, and the gift, involved in writing are reasons why these romantic notions of being a writer exist. The muse, characters taking over, art choosing the artist, etc., are all part of that "romance" and, unfortunately, for some people, excuses.

However, novels and characters aren't living things. They can't do anything on their own. What makes a story leap from the pages is due to the talent, hard work and perseverence of the writer. Sometimes writers get so filled with ideas and possibilities that all sound so great, and the writer is so filled with passion for them, that anxiety and confusion set in. Which one do I choose first. If a current project hits a snag, suddenly, another one of our ideas begins to sound better.

That's why, along with ideas, skill, talent, perseverence and a thick skin, writers need to develop focus and discipline. I believe writers will go further when they stop giving power over to the romantic notions and be honest about what it takes to write well enough for publication. It takes practice and education, not muses and fairy dust. Not everyone can, or will, be published. But they'll have a better chance if they understand what it is that they're doing. I believe in inspiration and that it comes from many different sources. I just don't believe it comes from muses or imaginary characters.

I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade. If anyone wants to keep believing in superstition and magical guides, they're free to do just that. I just believe that this is the other side of the coin that people don't like to talk about.

scottaz · Dec 2, 2007

Simple Living said:
I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade. If anyone wants to keep believing in superstition and magical guides, they're free to do just that. I just believe that this is the other side of the coin that people don't like to talk about.

There are many, many published authors who will strongly disagree with you.

And who's talking about magical guides, anyway??? We're talking about ideas, here.

At the end of the day writing still is an art form. And no matter how you choose to look at it, the first step in creating any work of art is the inspiration, the idea.

I agree that the act of writing requires discipline, and practice, and perseverance, and all those other things you listed. I wasn't referring to that aspect of the craft, but the "art" of it.

I'm sorry, but what you wrote sounded extremely condescending. What is that "other side of the coin" that people don't like to talk about? That writing is hard work and takes practice? Geez, who here doesn't know that? Isn't everyone here to learn more about the craft of writing? To practice, and perhaps get better at it?

I like the mystery and romance of writing. It's comforting. That does not mean that I have no clue about hard work or what it takes to become published.

lfraser · Dec 2, 2007

I haven't published any fiction, so my opinion is probably worth a half pint of rabbit piss, but it seems to me that what seems mysterious and magical about writing is really the subconscious taking over. I can't believe that characters actually choose to speak or that stories really choose the writer.

What I do believe is that things that have been simmering in the back of my head for months or years start to come together at a certain point and then it's time to set them down.

I hear people talking about the more mystical aspects of fiction writing, and wonder if perhaps the fact that I don't "believe" in those things is a reflection of a possible lack of talent. That may be the case. Still, I find it equally wonderful and magical to think that the ideas and characters and plots I've come up with have all come from me, from my head.

scottaz · Dec 2, 2007

lfraser said:
I haven't published any fiction, so my opinion is probably worth a half pint of rabbit piss, but it seems to me that what seems mysterious and magical about writing is really the subconscious taking over. I can't believe that characters actually choose to speak or that stories really choose the writer.

What I do believe is that things that have been simmering in the back of my head for months or years start to come together at a certain point and then it's time to set them down.

I hear people talking about the more mystical aspects of fiction writing, and wonder if perhaps the fact that I don't "believe" in those things is a reflection of a possible lack of talent. That may be the case. Still, I find it equally wonderful and magical to think that the ideas and characters and plots I've come up with have all come from me, from my head.

I don't think anyone really believes that ideas and characters are anything but the creation of the author. It's all just a huge anthropomorphism, created perhaps as a method to cope with the madness.

Shady Lane · Dec 2, 2007

Simple Living said:
I'm afraid I'm going to offer the dissenting opinion. Ideas and novels are wonderful things. How they're written can seem to be mysterious. People have ideas and use words every day, but arranging them in a way to capture people's hearts and imaginations is a gift.

I think the mystery, and the gift, involved in writing are reasons why these romantic notions of being a writer exist. The muse, characters taking over, art choosing the artist, etc., are all part of that "romance" and, unfortunately, for some people, excuses.

However, novels and characters aren't living things. They can't do anything on their own. What makes a story leap from the pages is due to the talent, hard work and perseverence of the writer. Sometimes writers get so filled with ideas and possibilities that all sound so great, and the writer is so filled with passion for them, that anxiety and confusion set in. Which one do I choose first. If a current project hits a snag, suddenly, another one of our ideas begins to sound better.

That's why, along with ideas, skill, talent, perseverence and a thick skin, writers need to develop focus and discipline. I believe writers will go further when they stop giving power over to the romantic notions and be honest about what it takes to write well enough for publication. It takes practice and education, not muses and fairy dust. Not everyone can, or will, be published. But they'll have a better chance if they understand what it is that they're doing. I believe in inspiration and that it comes from many different sources. I just don't believe it comes from muses or imaginary characters.

I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade. If anyone wants to keep believing in superstition and magical guides, they're free to do just that. I just believe that this is the other side of the coin that people don't like to talk about.

I agree wholeheartedly. Frankly, the discussions of "how do I control my characters?" make me feel a little sick. And a bit like I'm missing something.

Inspiration comes from weird places, and we want to write the mss we feel like we can handle. That's all.

Soccer Mom · Dec 2, 2007

Your filed away idea is calling you because your current WIP is progressing like sludge. You have to push through the hard parts. Your new, shiny idea will eventually turn to sludge once you get to it. Don't abandon your WIP for the shiny. Keep slogging!

scottaz · Dec 2, 2007

Shady Lane said:
I agree wholeheartedly. Frankly, the discussions of "how do I control my characters?" make me feel a little sick. And a bit like I'm missing something.

Inspiration comes from weird places, and we want to write the mss we feel like we can handle. That's all.

Okay, now I feel like I'm missing something. Where did this notion of controlling characters come from? I thought we were talking about how ideas ebb and flow over the course of writing a novel.

Should I rephrase my original question?

Shady Lane · Dec 2, 2007

scottaz said:
Okay, now I feel like I'm missing something. Where did this notion of controlling characters come from? I thought we were talking about how ideas ebb and flow over the course of writing a novel.

Should I rephrase my original question?

Nah, it's not you. That discussion doesn't belong in this thread. My mistake. As you were.

scottaz · Dec 2, 2007

Soccer Mom said:
Your filed away idea is calling you because your current WIP is progressing like sludge. You have to push through the hard parts. Your new, shiny idea will eventually turn to sludge once you get to it. Don't abandon your WIP for the shiny. Keep slogging!

I thought so. Shiny idea goes back into the drawer.

: :sarcasm

on::
So you mean my characters and ideas weren't actually talking to me???
: :sarcasm

off::

Soccer Mom · Dec 2, 2007

That's the spirit! Make the shiny wait it's turn.

Happy slogging!

Danger Jane · Dec 2, 2007

Yeah, I generally make shiny wait as long as I possibly can. Which is a while. The anticipation makes it so much better once I finally indulge.

I think the "mystical" aspect is the feeling of the subconscious taking control, definitely. When I'm writing and it's just a translation of the images and emotions that are coming to me...that's like, the best possible writing, the least self conscious, trance-like. It feels mystical. But it's part of my brain. So in a way it isn't me writing at all, but in another way it is entirely me, entirely my ability to identify and translate those abstract images and feelings in the back of my mind. That's how all my stories and POV characters start out--a complete abstract. Once I figure out how to describe that abstract, I have a character, and I have a story.

Gray Rose · Dec 2, 2007

I do not really understad this question. Maybe because I am dumb. Do you mean that ready-made novels are floating out there, like souls of unborn babes, waiting their chance to spring on an unsuspecting writer? If so, no, I do not believe this.

I do believe that the best novels are often those that we write out of the deepest parts of ourselves, parts we are not always aware of. That's why it is so important to write honestly and to follow where the writing takes you. In this sense the writing is a circular process: we take hold of our novels, and they in turn lead us where we need to go.

chroniclemaster1 · Dec 2, 2007

Danger Jane said:
I think the "mystical" aspect is the feeling of the subconscious taking control, definitely. When I'm writing and it's just a translation of the images and emotions that are coming to me...that's like, the best possible writing, the least self conscious, trance-like. It feels mystical. But it's part of my brain.

I think the Greek concept of the muse is an excellent way to describe what it's like to someone who's never experienced the feeling. But I have very little patience for people who seem to feel that it's real. It IS the best feeling though. When you're caught in the flow and just going. I've written the most surprising things when they come to me like that. I've learned more about myself when I'm writing in that mode than at all the other times combined. But it surely doesn't happen when I call.

Danger Jane · Dec 2, 2007

chroniclemaster1 said:
I think the Greek concept of the muse is an excellent way to describe what it's like to someone who's never experienced the feeling. But I have very little patience for people who seem to feel that it's real. It IS the best feeling though. When you're caught in the flow and just going. I've written the most surprising things when they come to me like that. I've learned more about myself when I'm writing in that mode than at all the other times combined. But it surely doesn't happen when I call.

Exactly. Writing, for me, is all about opening up the communication between my conscious and my subconscious. Sometimes that takes a good session of BIC. Sometimes it takes a week of exercises and reflections directed toward getting my character into my head. But it's all about reaching that level of creating, that it feels as though a muse has inspired me.

...people really believe in muses?

scottaz · Dec 2, 2007

Gray Rose said:
I do not really understad this question. Maybe because I am dumb. Do you mean that ready-made novels are floating out there, like souls of unborn babes, waiting their chance to spring on an unsuspecting writer? If so, no, I do not believe this.

The question was merely an attempt to justify shelving my current WIP in favor of another idea that has been simmering for a while. I think the resounding answer was no, slog on and keep that bright shiny idea waiting.

David I · Dec 2, 2007

Gray Rose said:
Do you mean that ready-made novels are floating out there, like souls of unborn babes, waiting their chance to spring on an unsuspecting writer? If so, no, I do not believe this.

Yet many successful writers believe almost exactly that, though Stephen King likens it to gradually unearthing a fossil rather than calling down a baby's soul.

And Mozart, Beethoven, and many other composers spoke of discovering or hearing their music, rather than composing it. They were attuning themselves to something that they believed already existed.

What is hilarious about this is that people somehow think they are being more "scientific" by saying that they don't believe in the "Muse". Oh, no, not me--I believe it's my "subconscious".

Relabeling a thing that isn't understood with a second label doesn't make it more scientific, or less "mystical". And some "scientific" terms, like "pholgiston," and "the ether," turn out to be utter nonsense.

Studies of multiple personality disorder make it clear that we can hold and develop and transform more than one complex personality in our heads. If we can do this, is it so surprising that once we launch a new character, that sometimes he or she develops seeming volition?

Most writers sooner or later have this experience--the character who comes alive and begins doing things. But they can't have volition! Because they aren't real, right?

But those other brainwaves up there, those are real, because those are me. Right?

I'd suggest all writers use whatever models get the job done. Your muse. Your subconscious. Your metaprogram.

They're only models.

scottaz · Dec 2, 2007

David I said:
Yet many successful writers believe almost exactly that, though Stephen King likens it to gradually unearthing a fossil rather than calling down a baby's soul.

And Mozart, Beethoven, and many other composers spoke of discovering or hearing their music, rather than composing it. They were attuning themselves to something that they believed already existed.

What is hilarious about this is that people somehow think they are being more "scientific" by saying that they don't believe in the "Muse". Oh, no, not me--I believe it's my "subconscious".

Relabeling a thing that isn't understood with a second label doesn't make it more scientific, or less "mystical". And some "scientific" terms, like "pholgiston," and "the ether," turn out to be utter nonsense.

Studies of multiple personality disorder make it clear that we can hold and develop and transform more than one complex personality in our heads. If we can do this, is it so surprising that once we launch a new character, that sometimes he or she develops seeming volition?

Most writers sooner or later have this experience--the character who comes alive and begins doing things. But they can't have volition! Because they aren't real, right?

But those other brainwaves up there, those are real, because those are me. Right?

I'd suggest all writers use whatever models get the job done. Your muse. Your subconscious. Your metaprogram.

They're only models.

Well said, David. On Writing resonated with me precisely because of King's relic metaphor.

Hummingbird · Dec 2, 2007

Whenever I say that my characters are leading me, it's because I'm in the flow and can finally see things and feel they way they make sense at that point. It's like drawing, after lots of practice you can feel how curved to draw a line, or how shaded something needs to be.

As to the original question

: I say try to get as much finished with your current as you can! I've never gotten anything published yet, but I keep having ideas that my brain wants to test out while I'm already working on something. If the other idea is hindering my current WIP, I take a break from my current to work a little on the idea so I can think straight again.

chroniclemaster1 · Dec 2, 2007

Danger Jane said:
Sometimes that takes a good session of BIC. Sometimes it takes a week of exercises and reflections directed toward getting my character into my head.

OK, what are your tricks for getting your juices going. Do you plan BIC time on a schedule? For how long? Any tricks that help you work through rough spots or when you're seem to be distracting yourself?

I've always thought my problems centered around consistency. That and burning the candle at both ends. It's up in the morning, off to work, back to do dinner and take care of the kids. Then spending a couple spare hours finding out who that girl with the wedding ring is, and when she finally goes to bed I can *yawn* start on something.

Danger Jane said:
...people really believe in muses?

OK, muses may be a bit too classical an allusion, but I've met my share of nutjobs. Birds of a feather you know.

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