Critiquing a friend's MS

[HopelessDreamer]

A friend recently sent me the manuscript of his novel via email. He wrote: "You can critique it if you want, but I'd rather you just enjoy it". However, as I started to read I noticed a lot of grammatical errors, run-on sentences, passages with little relevance that didn't make a lot of sense, infodumps, etc. So I wrote a detailed critique on one of his chapters just to give him some examples. I'm afraid to show him this because he's the type of person who will say: "You're wrong - I did this all on purpose". He thinks it's perfect and is trying to get it published. I want him to get it published, but it's in such a state that no literary agent will accept it. Should I show him my critique, give him pointers, etc?

[Provrb1810meggy]

Maybe you should send an email saying, "I found a few grammatical errors, sentences, some passages I think that need clarity or cutting, but wasn't sure if you wanted a critique. If you are interested, I can send them over." If he says to send them over, then do so. If he argues, don't get into arguing back. Just tell him that those were your opinions, but it his piece and he should feel free to discard your thoughts.

[reenkam]

Yup, I second what Meg said exactly.

[LeeFlower]

I would tell him that you noticed some serious grammar problems and other areas that need improvement, and ask him if he wants to see your critique. If he says no, or tries to argue with you about it, tell you it's perfection itself, etc, you can just say "nevermind, then," and keep it to yourself. If he says he does want to see it, you can send it to him. And if he wants to argue with you about it after seeing it, you can say something like "These are just my observations. You're under no obligation to act on them if you don't agree," wish him the best in his quest for representation, and tell him you don't want to discuss it any further.

That's what I would recommend, anyway. But then, I'm one of those people who won't even let friends beta my stuff unless I'm sure they'll tell me what they really thought of it and how to make it better, so my understanding of his viewpoint may be inadequate to formulating a response.

[LeeFlower]

Oop, Meg beat me to it-- her post went up while I was writing mine...

[maestrowork]

A friend recently sent me the manuscript of his novel via email. He wrote: "You can critique it if you want, but I'd rather you just enjoy it". However, as I started to read I noticed a lot of grammatical errors, run-on sentences, passages with little relevance that didn't make a lot of sense, infodumps, etc. So I wrote a detailed critique on one of his chapters just to give him some examples. I'm afraid to show him this because he's the type of person who will say: "You're wrong - I did this all on purpose". He thinks it's perfect and is trying to get it published. I want him to get it published, but it's in such a state that no literary agent will accept it. Should I show him my critique, give him pointers, etc?

"You can critique if you want but I'd rather you just enjoy it" means "buzz off and don't even bother to send me anything, just tell me I'm brilliant."

He doesn't want a critique.

You have to ask, is it worth damaging your friendship?

[a_sharp]

I agree with Ray about keeping the friendship, but you might send him here to AW for a third-party beta as a suggestion. If he'll take that step, he'll get a fair critique without risking your relationship.

[benbradley]

"You can critique if you want but I'd rather you just enjoy it" means "buzz off and don't even bother to send me anything, just tell me I'm brilliant."

He doesn't want a critique.

You have to ask, is it worth damaging your friendship?
I have a more indirect idea that may both save your friendship, AND help him get the MS in shape (if he'll take the neccesary critiques and learn from them, which from his tone seems doubtful, but who knows):

"Hey, great work! [or perhaps something a little more toned-down, but still encouraging] I don't know enough about critiquing others' work to give any advice about yours, but I know where there's some people who would, if you really want to check to see how publishable it is, they're on the forums at absolutewrite.com."

[CheshireCat]

I agree with Ray about keeping the friendship, but you might send him here to AW for a third-party beta as a suggestion. If he'll take that step, he'll get a fair critique without risking your relationship.

Yes.

I wouldn't send that critique if I were you. What Maestro said is perfectly true: he doesn't want one from you.

[Shady Lane]

Stop reading the crappy manuscript.

Tell your friend it was fantastic.




There. You don't have to torture your writer's sensibilities and your friend hears what he wants to hear. Win/win.

[Andre_Laurent]

What BenBradley said.

edit: I once had someone approach me and ask for a crit. The piece was terrible...beyond terrible. I spent four hours on the piece and the crit. I even toned it down and didn't give it the shred it needed, just stuck with the technical errors. The person has not spoke to me since.

[astonwest]

If he's not interested in your honest opinion, I'd ask if you truly want to keep your friendship...my best friend critiques my work all the time, and he'll tell me when he thinks something I've written is crap.

[wayndom]

I agree with Ray about keeping the friendship, but you might send him here to AW for a third-party beta as a suggestion. If he'll take that step, he'll get a fair critique without risking your relationship.

Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner!

[David I]

Either don't respond--which you are free to do, since you were told he didn't want a critique--or write one of those notes where everything you say is true, but can be read two or more ways:

"I just can't say enough good things about your novel. I admit that I've never read anything quite like this before. There were big surprises on every page, and the style is inimitable. Few published novelists write at this level. I can't praise this too highly!"

On second thought, listen to Maestro.

[KTC]

I would go with what Meg said way up thread. Tell him you found a few things and would he mind if you sent him something. Frankly, if he thinks it's perfect though...I don't know if I would bother. I'm so tired of people showing me their dreadfully pitted work and not wanting me to point out their glaring errors. It's painful. Depending on how close you guys are, you should at least approach him and try to tell him a few changes would make it 'a bit more perfect'. Don't waste too much time, though...some people can never be helped.

[BruceJ]

"You can critique if you want but I'd rather you just enjoy it" means "buzz off and don't even bother to send me anything, just tell me I'm brilliant."

He doesn't want a critique.

You have to ask, is it worth damaging your friendship?
Maestro's got a good point. The struggle I'd have with this, though, is that like "Friends don't let friends drive drunk." - "Friends don't let friends submit junk." As Maestro says, your friend clearly doesn't want you to crit, but just like a sauced friend may not want you to take his car keys, he needs you to--with tact (see my signature quote from Pope) as I'm sure you would. If he can't take it, and/or doesn't get over it, how much of a friend was he in the first place?

[allenparker]

Just thank him for letting you read it and then, "If you would like a more detailed response and a few helpful hints, let me know."

Just a simple way of walking out.

[E.M.Sterling]

I guess I am a little different. Anyone who will stop being your *friend* over something like honesty, isn't worth being friends with. I know I give out my manuscripts to my friends to read so that I can get a critique. Did it flow? Were there stupid errors (there always are). I know that I have some serious weaknesses that I cannot see in my own work and need another pair of eyes to catch it for me. Anyone who is serious about what ever profession they want to do will listen to critiques and learn from them. This does not mean rip the poor guy apart. Be constructive. If you cannot be constructive in any critique don't do it.
As a writer, what I write is very personal to me. I am sure that goes for a lot people. So, it's important that we handle a critique with care, but honest care. This means write something positive then *after* that write a comment for constructive criticism. Give more than one example of a possible change, several if possible. This way you are not saying that something is *wrong*. You are saying, there is a BETTER more powerful way to express this idea let's explore them.
I think that a lot of folks do get carried away with critiques and feel that being asked to do them gives them the power to decide right from wrong. Some things are black and white but most aren't. What we fail to realize when we do those critiques is that people don't want to be told how *you* do it. They want to be told: Is this as good as it could be?


JMHO

[Twizzle]

He's already told you he'd rather you didn't crit, to just read it.

As a good friend, I'd respect him and his wishes. If he asked for advice about preparing it for submission, I'd refer him. But I'd only offer the advice, if asked.

[NeuroFizz]

I go with the honest approach (a la Megan and Kevin). You have found problems with the manuscript. You should tell him. Don't give any further feedback unless he then asks for it--give him the choice of further consideration. Saying it's wonderful just to get out of the tight situation is disingenuous and not very friend-like. I'd tell him he has some mechanistic problems that will probably land it in the slush pile if he submits it as is, and that if he wants independent opinions to go to the AW Share Your Work forum. If you finished the story and find it has storytelling potential (or is a good story outright), be sure to give him that encouraging boost. But, if you couln't get through the story because of all of the mechanical problems, you should tell him that, too. In a critique, it's always helpful to tell the author what he/she has done right as well as what he/she hasn't done so well.

If he agrees to let you have at it, send him the first chapter or two so he can see your critting style and the depth of your suggestions. If his ego gets in the way of self-improvement, he'll likely call it off at that point and you'll be off the hook for going through the whole thing.

[KAP]

It's interesting how differently we all react. Beauty of a discussion board.

"You can critique it if you want, but I'd rather you just enjoy it." That's less than direct from the friend. IF this is a good friend I wouldn't mind helping with the substantial effort a full-novel critique demands, I'd demand clarity -- if not when the friend asked, now. If this isn't a good friend who I'd want to put myself out for in such a big, big way or if I didn't have the time or energy for it, I'd gladly do as the friend would rather and keep my impressions to myself.

kap

[CaroGirl]

If you're a real friend to this person, you'll at least make an attempt to tell him the problems with his ms. If he doesn't want to hear it, at least you'll know that you tried.

[Perle_Rare]

The struggle I'd have with this, though, is that like "Friends don't let friends drive drunk." - "Friends don't let friends submit junk."

I don't quite agree with this statement. To prevent a friend from driving drunk and possibly maiming or killing himself and likely others in the process is one thing but to give the same amount of importance to a poorly written manuscript is a bit excessive IMHO. Unless there's some underlying pathological issues that cause the author to go ballistic if anyone criticizes his work, the only things likely to be damaged here are an ego and a friendship.

If the friendship is worth preserving, then there's lots of good advice up above that provide that. Maestro's or AllenParker's, for example. If, however, the author in you just cannot bear to co-exist on this earth alongside a poorly written manuscript, then feel free to critique and risk the friendship.

Chances are, if your friend submits the manuscript as is, he'll suffer from rejection. On the other hand, there is no guarantee that the changes you would recommend would get him published either. The result will likely be the same: a learning experience for him.

[Bufty]

Was the manuscript sent unsolicited?

Did you offer to critique it?

Hey man, did you think I was going to fall for that stunt of deliberate errors in the first chapter? Nice try. Read your manuscript - good luck with it. :D Cheers.

See what comes back - if anything.



A friend recently sent me the manuscript of his novel via email. He wrote: "You can critique it if you want, but I'd rather you just enjoy it". However, as I started to read I noticed a lot of grammatical errors, run-on sentences, passages with little relevance that didn't make a lot of sense, infodumps, etc. So I wrote a detailed critique on one of his chapters just to give him some examples. I'm afraid to show him this because he's the type of person who will say: "You're wrong - I did this all on purpose". He thinks it's perfect and is trying to get it published. I want him to get it published, but it's in such a state that no literary agent will accept it. Should I show him my critique, give him pointers, etc?

[Shadow_Ferret]

Personally, if it was my friend and they had said "You can critique it if you want, but I'd rather you just enjoy it" then I'd simply read it and enjoy it if I could.

Then I'd say, "I enjoyed it" with no buts.

If they push for "well, what did you really think of it?" then I'd give them the "there were some grammatical errors."

I wouldn't ever give him a bonafide critique unless they pushed for it and I'd also, as someone else suggested, give them the addy to this website. If they are really interested in improving as a writer, let them make that step.

[JerseyGirl1962]

I agree with those posters who said not to crit it; doesn't sound like he asked for one.

If/when he starts to submit to agents and publishers, just make sure he doesn't fall in with PA or agents of similar ilk.

~Nancy

[NicoleMD]

I'd suggest following your friend's wishes and refrain from a critique as much as possible. It sounds like your friend is presenting you with a gift of prose, and even if it's about as useful as a fruitcake, for some people it's like sharing a bit of themselves with someone.

Since he emailed you, I'd respond with the same media and list two or three things that your really liked about the story (there has to be some redeeming qualities right?) and maybe if you're feeling lucky, add one or two things that you think could be improved upon. I'd keep all of this to under 200 words. If your friend wants more, he'll ask.

Just one more opinion to add to the stack. :) Good luck!

Nicole

[ink wench]

As someone who's given friends asked-for crits in the past and regretted even that, I agree with all who are saying don't do it. There's always the possibility your friend will take it well and thank you for the feedback, but it doesn't sound likely in this case. Just try to enjoy it. Sounds like that's what he wants you to do.

[JanDarby]

I agree -- don't crit unless the friend clearly wants a critique.

One thing you might do, though, as a friend, is see if you can find something that IS good about it, and praise that, which is both honest and helpful (implicitly encouraging the friend to keep doing what's good). For instance, if the descriptions are really fascinating, or the dialogue is nice and snappy, or if you think the characters' names are particularly apt, or the premise is good or whatever -- praise what's good, and simply don't address what needs work unless it's specifically requested.

JD

[BruceJ]

I don't quite agree with this statement. To prevent a friend from driving drunk and possibly maiming or killing himself and likely others in the process is one thing but to give the same amount of importance to a poorly written manuscript is a bit excessive IMHO. Unless there's some underlying pathological issues that cause the author to go ballistic if anyone criticizes his work, the only things likely to be damaged here are an ego and a friendship.

If the friendship is worth preserving, then there's lots of good advice up above that provide that. Maestro's or AllenParker's, for example. If, however, the author in you just cannot bear to co-exist on this earth alongside a poorly written manuscript, then feel free to critique and risk the friendship.

Chances are, if your friend submits the manuscript as is, he'll suffer from rejection. On the other hand, there is no guarantee that the changes you would recommend would get him published either. The result will likely be the same: a learning experience for him.
Good point, Perle. My comparison was not so much one of magnitude of the consequences, but simply that sometimes it's okay to be proactive in intervening, even if not asked to, just because you're genuinely concerned that your friend may later regret having made an ill-conceived decision to submit prematurely ("get behind the wheel")--something that may come back to bite him later. There's a risk, but in the long run saying nothing and letting your friend fall into a hole you saw and he didn't doesn't seem like something a very caring friend would do.

Hopeless mentioned grammar and spelling, and, although good grammar and spelling alone don't guarantee publication, bad grammar and spelling pretty much guarantee rejection, from everything I've read. Suggestions on correcting these aspects of the writing can't hurt the product.

Just a perspective...

[Queen of Swords]

If/when he starts to submit to agents and publishers, just make sure he doesn't fall in with PA or agents of similar ilk.

Unfortunately, the scamsters will assure the friend that his story is fine, technically accurate and not in need of any improvement.

[maestrowork]

praise what's good, and simply don't address what needs work unless it's specifically requested.

JD

Actually, I don't recommend that. I think praises only without honest critiques are very damaging, especially to new writers who are trying to get published. Because if they think the ms. is already perfect, that will only make them think so even more.

I would agree with that if the book has already been published (there's no reason to list the "bad parts" once it's out the door).

The friend clearly seems to only want praise and not critique ("I'd rather you just enjoy it"). Unsolicited comments are often unwelcome, no matter how sincere (especially when one's "creative" work is concerned). New writers are notoriously thin-skinned and defensive. Now if he does ask you for your opinion, then you have to assess if he truly wants an honest opinion and critique, or if he simply wants a pat on the back.

There's a reason why I usually don't critique a friend's work, unless the friend has come a long way to a point where he or she is thick-skinned enough and truly wants honest, specific critiques that can help him/her improve. Even then, I have to tread very carefully.

[maestrowork]

Unfortunately, the scamsters will assure the friend that his story is fine, technically accurate and not in need of any improvement.

It's up to you, as a friend, to tell the friend about scammers and all about publication (money always flow toward writers; not every publisher or agent is created equal, etc.) However, seriously, if someone does not ask for a crit, do not offer one. You can suggest them get the ms. "copy edited," etc.

[narnia]

...

The friend clearly seems to only want praise and not critique ("I'd rather you just enjoy it"). Unsolicited comments are often unwelcome, no matter how sincere (especially when one's "creative" work is concerned). New writers are notoriously thin-skinned and defensive. Now if he does ask you for your opinion, then you have to assess if he truly wants an honest opinion and critique, or if he simply wants a pat on the back.
...


I agree! Also, if it was sent unsolicited and you extended no offer to critique as Bufty asked, I wouldn't even make a pass at it.

If it were me, smack dab in holiday season prep, end of year work load, ms of my own in process, and horribly behind in my reading of choice, I'd say, hey, thanks for sharing, bit busy at the moment but I will definitely give it a look soon. And 'soon' can be defined as, well, much much later. :D

At least you'll have more time to compose your 'reaction'.... ;)

[chartreuse]

If you're a real friend to this person, you'll at least make an attempt to tell him the problems with his ms. If he doesn't want to hear it, at least you'll know that you tried.

I agree with this.

If you don't point out the problems, and he sends it out, and is then informed of the problems by someone else, you know what he's going to do? Blame you.

He said you can critique it if you want. Go for it.

[Gray Rose]

It depends on your friend's character which we do not know, so this is very much theoretical.

I once refrained from critting a friend's MS even though she explicitly asked, because I knew that if I were to criticize, the said friend would not only dismiss the critique, but think less highly of me. So I danced around the issue.

On the other hand I always want critiques, and my friends know they can be pretty harsh. The harsher the crit, the more appreciative I tend to be - after all if a person takes time to offer suggestions, he/she cares - and that means a lot.

Know your friend, act accordingly.

[tjwriter]

Perhaps you could tell him that you read it, and you recommend that he come to AW, Editors & Preditors, and Writer Beware to search for an agent, learn who the scammers are, etc.

Plenty of people have come here on a publisher/agent search, learned that their writing was not ready, and started to work on their skill set.

Being the type of person that I am, I'd have to make some mention of things that could be improved, perhaps suggesting another edit. Give him Strunk & White for Christmas.

This is why I cannot stay friends with people whom I cannot tell the complete truth. It's way to hard on me, as I seem to have an enlarged honesty gland.

[notpc]

I agree with Ray about keeping the friendship, but you might send him here to AW for a third-party beta as a suggestion. If he'll take that step, he'll get a fair critique without risking your relationship.


Make sure that he asks the right people here, recommend a couple of people, or there could be some real issues with your friendship. There are some here that want to rewrite everything and not teach. And then there are those that just plain dump on a person.

[maestrowork]

Make sure that he asks the right people here, recommend a couple of people, or there could be some real issues with your friendship. There are some here that want to rewrite everything and not teach. And then there are those that just plain dump on a person.

Send him my way. I'll set him straight. :D

[Bufty]

Differences in approach are always to be expected in any open critique environment, but I can't see why his submission shouldn't receive anything other than the helpful responses your first submission received.

... There are some here that want to rewrite everything and not teach. And then there are those that just plain dump on a person.

[HopelessDreamer]

Thanks for the suggestions, everyone. I decided to focus on the strong points, but I certainly didn't tell him he had a brilliant piece of literature on his hands. Yesterday, he actually asked me for a critique, and I gladly told him the problems I saw with it as well as some ways to improve it. He took the criticism surprisingly well, but said he wasn't going to re-edit the book even though he saw the points that I made. He said something along the lines of "I figure if I wrote it down one way the first time, it was meant to be that way and I don't need to change anything." Oy veh...

[maestrowork]

"I figure if I wrote it down one way the first time, it was meant to be that way and I don't need to change anything." Oy veh...

Eeek. Golden Word Syndrome. I mean, even if he has grammatical and spelling errors he's not going to change anything? Good luck, pal. (I hardly think he "took the critique well" if he said that.)

You did your best. You're a good pal.

[JerseyGirl1962]

Unfortunately, the scamsters will assure the friend that his story is fine, technically accurate and not in need of any improvement.


Exactly. Which is why the OP would be a very helpful buddy if the friend was steered away from the scamsters - that is, if the friend really wants to hear it.

~Nancy

[ACEnders]

Stop reading the crappy manuscript.

Tell your friend it was fantastic.




There. You don't have to torture your writer's sensibilities and your friend hears what he wants to hear. Win/win.

I kinda agree with this. He said he doesn't want a critique, so I wouldn't. Don't waste your time, you know? If you want to critique, I would be sure to point out the good things also. Make a big deal out of the things you think are fantastic, and when you're saying something he should maybe change say something like, "This is just my opinion." If you're unpublished, add that "This is just what I think, but I'm not published. And you're the author and know exactly what you're trying to say. You know these characters inside out, I don't. So take what I say as you will."

[notpc]

I kinda agree with this. He said he doesn't want a critique, so I wouldn't. Don't waste your time, you know? If you want to critique, I would be sure to point out the good things also. Make a big deal out of the things you think are fantastic, and when you're saying something he should maybe change say something like, "This is just my opinion."

Two warm fuzzes for every cold prickly.

[HopelessDreamer]

Eeek. Golden Word Syndrome. I mean, even if he has grammatical and spelling errors he's not going to change anything? Good luck, pal.

He has the worst case of Golden Word Syndrome I've ever seen. I told him his novel couldn't be published in its current state because no agent would even consider representing it. He told me he doesn't need an agent; he's going to get it self-published (I don't know if he wants to go through Lulu or what). When I told him doing that would bring none of the recognition he's looking for, he said he thought his book was so good that people would buy it regardless.

Oh, to be so naive about the publishing industry again...

[tjwriter]

At least recommend he come here to research publishers. There's a full section devoted to self-publishing if he really wants to go that route. He may see some other information that could raise his awareness and change his mind.

[maestrowork]

At least recommend he come here to research publishers. There's a full section devoted to self-publishing if he really wants to go that route. He may see some other information that could raise his awareness and change his mind.

You're a kind person, but one only learns when he wants to learn. It doesn't seem like this person wants to learn. He wants to do whatever he wants with his brilliant masterpiece that would change the world. Like I said, good luck to him.

[wayndom]

Thanks for the suggestions, everyone. I decided to focus on the strong points, but I certainly didn't tell him he had a brilliant piece of literature on his hands. Yesterday, he actually asked me for a critique, and I gladly told him the problems I saw with it as well as some ways to improve it. He took the criticism surprisingly well, but said he wasn't going to re-edit the book even though he saw the points that I made. He said something along the lines of "I figure if I wrote it down one way the first time, it was meant to be that way and I don't need to change anything." Oy veh...

I haven't heard anything that silly since I stopped taking LSD...

"Go with the flow, man."

"What if the flow is going over a cliff?"

[wayndom]

He has the worst case of Golden Word Syndrome I've ever seen. I told him his novel couldn't be published in its current state because no agent would even consider representing it. He told me he doesn't need an agent; he's going to get it self-published (I don't know if he wants to go through Lulu or what). When I told him doing that would bring none of the recognition he's looking for, he said he thought his book was so good that people would buy it regardless.


Well, at least when reality catches up with him, he won't be able to say, "Why didn't you stop me? Why didn't you tell me it was a piece of crap?"

Of course, he may say so anyway...

[Queen of Swords]

He said something along the lines of "I figure if I wrote it down one way the first time, it was meant to be that way and I don't need to change anything."

Hopefully he will also believe that sales in the low two-digit numbers are meant to be that way. At least then he won't be too disappointed.

[tjwriter]

You're a kind person, but one only learns when he wants to learn. It doesn't seem like this person wants to learn. He wants to do whatever he wants with his brilliant masterpiece that would change the world. Like I said, good luck to him.

Of course he can do what he wants, but one can recommend in good conscience that he come here to learn about what he wants, which in this case is self-publishing. It also gives the opportunity for him to be exposed to a multitude of other information, which might influence what he thinks about his own writing.

Recommending a source of information does not mean that he will use it, but it leaves the person in a sticky situation feeling a little bit better. In essence, all pyschology.

People never change until they are ready, all you can do is offer up what you know and leave it for them to decide what to do with it all.

[Stuart Clark]

You're in a catch 22 situation. He clearly doesn't want a critique, but at the same time, when you tell him you've read it, of course he's going to ask "What did you think?" So he does want an opinion of sorts - and judging by what he originally said, I'd just tell him you enjoyed it. If he persists and says "No really...?" then give him both barrels. Gently now. :-)

[Bufty]

Send him a short piece of made-up utter drivel and ask him to crit it for you, reminding him to keep in mind that "I figure if I wrote it down one way the first time, it was meant to be that way and I don't need to change anything.":snoopy:

PS - Just realised - Once he gets here he may read this thread!! Hiya, Buddy! :hi: