looking for technical help.

[Mistook]

I've come to a point in my story where I'd like to have a military attack helicopter shoot at a small moving target, preferably using a radar guidance system.

Here's the hitch, this helicopter had to have existed in 1992, and conceivably been available to the national guard or the reserve for use in an urban setting.

I'm liking the Apache Longbow, but from what I can find, it used only heat-seeking missiles. I definitely need radar guided missles, because I need the missle to follow a target. If this wasn't possible in 1992, then I need to consider a different way to take this story.

Thanks to anybody who can help steer me in the right direction for research. :)

[katdad]

My military references are all packed away, but Tom Clancy has co-authored a series of non-fiction books about various elements of our modern military -- Air Force, Subs, etc.

I think that he's got one of this series on the Army in combat during the 1991 Gulf War, and the Army means that he includes their attack helicopters.

These books may still be in print but if not, you can probably find them in the library, and in used bookstores. The series of books is very well written and interesting reading, as well as being informative.

[Jamesaritchie]

I've come to a point in my story where I'd like to have a military attack helicopter shoot at a small moving target, preferably using a radar guidance system.

Here's the hitch, this helicopter had to have existed in 1992, and conceivably been available to the national guard or the reserve for use in an urban setting.

I'm liking the Apache Longbow, but from what I can find, it used only heat-seeking missiles. I definitely need radar guided missles, because I need the missle to follow a target. If this wasn't possible in 1992, then I need to consider a different way to take this story.

Thanks to anybody who can help steer me in the right direction for research. :)

Both heat seeking and rader guided rockets follow targets. The heat-seeking missile simply needs a strong enough heat source to track, and the radar guided missile needs a radar lock. But your best bet might be a wire-guided rocket. These were much more common on helicopters in '92 than either heat seeking or radar guided missiles. Radar guided missiles still tend to be pretty big, and wire-guided missiles are still very common. Even most torpedoes are wire-guided.

The Cobra used a TOW (for tube-launched, optically tracked, wire-guided)
missile long before '92.

With a wire-guided missile, a very large spool of wire is mounted on the helicopter and is connected to the missile. The spool unwinds when the missile is fired. Basically, you look through a sight inside the helicopter and follow the target with your eyes. The TOW missile goes wherever you look. You follow the moving target with a crosshair, and the missile tracks it.

These things are very easy to use. I remember it was estimated that the first time you used one you had a 90% chance of hitting a moving tank at one mile.

I can't remember if the Hellfire fire and forget missiles were in use in '92 or not. These are laser-guided missiles. The target is illuminated by a separate laser designator, and the Hellfire follows the reflected radiation right to the target. As long as the target stays illuminated, it will be destroyed.

This should be pretty easy to find somewhere on the web. But generally speaking, TOW missiles and laser-guided missiles seem to work best against a small moving target. A very small target, such as a car, often doesn't generate enough heat for a heat-seeking missile, and can be very hard to get a rader lock on when moving through typical background.

[Writing Again]

I've come to a point in my story where I'd like to have a military attack helicopter shoot at a small moving target, preferably using a radar guidance system.

Here's the hitch, this helicopter had to have existed in 1992, and conceivably been available to the national guard or the reserve for use in an urban setting.

I'm liking the Apache Longbow, but from what I can find, it used only heat-seeking missiles. I definitely need radar guided missles, because I need the missle to follow a target. If this wasn't possible in 1992, then I need to consider a different way to take this story.

Thanks to anybody who can help steer me in the right direction for research. :)

Groups like the national guard have PR (public relations) departments. They are usually easy to contact, and unless you are depicting them as thugs or brutes will be glad to share all kinds of information with you. Your responsibility in exchange for this is to depict them in a fair light and acknowledge their assistance on the acknowledgements page.

[Mistook]

Groups like the national guard have PR (public relations) departments. They are usually easy to contact, and unless you are depicting them as thugs or brutes will be glad to share all kinds of information with you. Your responsibility in exchange for this is to depict them in a fair light and acknowledge their assistance on the acknowledgements page.

Well, the scene is meant to be ironically tragic. The NG believes they are doing something absolutely necessary to protect the public, and that this missile strike is the only reasonable alternative, but it all goes wrong and innocent people die.

It's pretty much framed up so that as the reader, you know these soldiers had no other choice given what they (or anybody) knew at the time, but again, the results are tragic, and I highly doubt the real National Guard would condone it, especially taking place in an average American town.

[Mistook]

Both heat seeking and rader guided rockets follow targets. The heat-seeking missile simply needs a strong enough heat source to track, and the radar guided missile needs a radar lock. But your best bet might be a wire-guided rocket. These were much more common on helicopters in '92 than either heat seeking or radar guided missiles. Radar guided missiles still tend to be pretty big, and wire-guided missiles are still very common. Even most torpedoes are wire-guided.

The Cobra used a TOW (for tube-launched, optically tracked, wire-guided)
missile long before '92.

With a wire-guided missile, a very large spool of wire is mounted on the helicopter and is connected to the missile. The spool unwinds when the missile is fired. Basically, you look through a sight inside the helicopter and follow the target with your eyes. The TOW missile goes wherever you look. You follow the moving target with a crosshair, and the missile tracks it.

These things are very easy to use. I remember it was estimated that the first time you used one you had a 90% chance of hitting a moving tank at one mile.

I can't remember if the Hellfire fire and forget missiles were in use in '92 or not. These are laser-guided missiles. The target is illuminated by a separate laser designator, and the Hellfire follows the reflected radiation right to the target. As long as the target stays illuminated, it will be destroyed.

This should be pretty easy to find somewhere on the web. But generally speaking, TOW missiles and laser-guided missiles seem to work best against a small moving target. A very small target, such as a car, often doesn't generate enough heat for a heat-seeking missile, and can be very hard to get a rader lock on when moving through typical background.



Thanks, James! I forgot all about TOW missiles. They would work much better for my scenario than anything else. I've done a little research on the Cobra AH-1F, and it seems believable that one could have been on such a scene. The only thing I'm not sure about is the night-vision. This scene would take place at night, and I don't know if such a Cobra would have been outfitted with night specs yet in 1992.

I'm finding it hard to get any difinitive details about TOW missiles. Apparently there's still some level of military secrecy. I'm now wondering what happens if the wire is broken by an obstacle. Will the missile go off course? I'm assuming it would, but will it detonate?

[Jamesaritchie]

Thanks, James! I forgot all about TOW missiles. They would work much better for my scenario than anything else. I've done a little research on the Cobra AH-1F, and it seems believable that one could have been on such a scene. The only thing I'm not sure about is the night-vision. This scene would take place at night, and I don't know if such a Cobra would have been outfitted with night specs yet in 1992.

I'm finding it hard to get any difinitive details about TOW missiles. Apparently there's still some level of military secrecy. I'm now wondering what happens if the wire is broken by an obstacle. Will the missile go off course? I'm assuming it would, but will it detonate?

Is this the kind of info you need? http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/tow.htm

The Apache was originally mean to use a TOW as its primary weapons system, and still uses them, but not as a primary system.

And don't forget the chain gun. The 30mm cannon on an Apache can fire up to 650 rounds per minutes, each loaded with HE. This is usually the easiest way to deal with a small, fast-moving target. Every weapons system on an Apache is connected directly to the gunnery officer's helmet. He has a monocle over one eye, and when any weapon system is armed, all he has to do is look at his target and fire the weapon, whether it's one of the various missile systems or the chain gun.

There's a crosshair in the monocle, and when the gunner turns his head, the chain gun turns with it. It's a "see it, kill it" system. Pilot and gunner each have their own sensor system attached to their helmet, and they can see through this small helmet display by day or by night.

The chain gun also has an automatic ranging system, so the gunner doesn't even have to think about trajectory. Just put the crosshair on the target, and the computer calculates range and speed of the target for you. All you have to do is, as they say, squeeze the trigger.

Oh, and, yes, if the wire is broken the missile loses tracking, but this very seldom happens.

[three seven]

Pat, which state is the scene set in?

[ChunkyC]

I remember being glued to the TV in '91 during the first Gulf War, and there sure were laser-guided missiles and night-vision technology. CNN was plastered with video of it. Even CNN reporters had night vision capability on the cameras they used to show their audience shots of tracer fire going off into the sky over Baghdad, so I would be absolutely gobsmacked if a Cobra from that era wasn't outfitted with such a thing.

You gotta check a reputable source to be sure, but I don't think you have a problem there, Mistook.

[Mistook]

Pat, which state is the scene set in?

It's set in Illinois, about 50 miles west of Chicago.


Every weapons system on an Apache is connected directly to the gunnery officer's helmet. He has a monocle over one eye, and when any weapon system is armed, all he has to do is look at his target and fire the weapon, whether it's one of the various missile systems or the chain gun.


Thanks, James. And thanks for the link too. I've got to say, the advanced state of military technology is really going to make the writing of this scene easy from a "believablility" standpoint.



@ all who are curious:

This is an urban (or modern) fantasy story, and one of the characters is more or less a super-hero. The city government fears he is a very dangerous vigilante. The night comes that our hero (and he's not the main character, just one in a cast of odd-balls) inadvertantly kills a gang memeber while trying to prevent a crime.

The cops have been worried it would come to this. They very much want to bring him in and book him, but they know if he doesn't cooperate, they'll have to use force. This is why they have a military helicopter on standby.

Nobody's sure exactly how powerful this vigilante is, but he's known to be able to dodge single bullets at least, and is capable of leaping very large distances (no, he can't actually fly).

So in the inevitable confrontation between copter and super-freak, I guess it would make sense they try the chain gun on him first, and after he stands up to those, they'll fire off the tow.

[Mistook]

Okay anyway, does anybody know any web resources to find info about police procedure, especially radio procedure?

[Jonathon Michaels]

Okay anyway, does anybody know any web resources to find info about police procedure, especially radio procedure?

Um, that's a very broad subject and also depends on which set of police to which you're referring.

For radio, while there are many standards and most can understand each others' codes if they do differ, it still depends. Our AF Security Police codes weren't the same as the city's codes. (They used the 10-codes, we did not.)

If you're speaking of state or local police, that would be something you might have to personally research, especially on the local level due to differences in procedure. Here is a website that might help. (http://www.bearcat1.com/radioil.htm) It lists many areas and their radio call-codes, including references to taxi pickups and such in addition to authorities.

Your best bet, in all reality, is to talk to the local cop shop. They could tell you the protocol for your area, plus might give some insight into when the codes are tossed out the window. I'm sure it doesn't happen everywhere, but the majority of our radio traffic except for designating who we wanted to speak to and who we were, and signing off, was pretty much english. When something major happened or on exercise we called the codes to prevent the person casually overhearing it from identifying the situation. Even then, those with scanners usually already know the codes.

Hope that's of some help!
Jonathon

[Mistook]

Thanks John!


From what little research I've done, I find the radio procedures of police to be very intriguing. In movies, or in fiction, nothing sounds like business more than a quick, slightly heated radio exchange between cops.

I have a scanner actually. Can you believe I found it in a dumpster? It works, but it isn't programmed, so I can't listen in. Maybe I should learn to program it, but I've heard it's complicated. Maybe that's why the last guy tossed it out?

[Jonathon Michaels]

In movies, or in fiction, nothing sounds like business more than a quick, slightly heated radio exchange between cops.

Yes, and sometimes those exchanges do happen, especially when the codes can shorten the time for information flow in a serious situation. In my experience though, they were the exception rather than the rule. We also had our own codes that weren't "sanctioned" - for example "distribution" at one of our base gates meant one of the many items we weren't supposed to accept had arrived - newspaper, donuts (hush), pizza, etc.

I have a scanner actually. Can you believe I found it in a dumpster? It works, but it isn't programmed, so I can't listen in. Maybe I should learn to program it, but I've heard it's complicated. Maybe that's why the last guy tossed it out?

LMAO - Quite possibly! If you are able to figure it out it would give you priceless research on what you're needing. There are also long lists of radio freqs I found while looking for the codes, so they're out there if you need them too. Good luck!

Jonathon

[James D. Macdonald]

The 10 codes vary from state to state, and even from town to town. In Vermont, 10-4 means "I heard and understood you." In New Hampshire, 10-4 means "repeat your last transmission."

For interagency operations, at disaster scenes and such, everyone switches to plain English.

[Jamesaritchie]

Okay anyway, does anybody know any web resources to find info about police procedure, especially radio procedure?

Some locales have two sets of radio codes, a local set, and a set they use when talking to anyone from another state or agency.

I don't know how it works everywhere, but here all I had to do was go in the police station and ask. They handed me a double list.

In the majority of places, 10-4 means "acknowledged." This is pretty much universal, but as James M says, here and there you will find local exceptions.

Every agency in this part of the country uses the same set of 10 codes, or they couldn't talk to each other, but some local agencies here also have a 10 code set they use locally when they don't want anyone listening in to know what they're talking about.

[James D. Macdonald]

Where the 10-codes came from:

Back in the early days of police radio, the transmission didn't start as soon as you pressed the button, so the first syllable would get cut off. The number 10 was added to the start of the codes, so that it wouldn't matter if the first syllable was clipped off or not.

There were only nine codes back then.

Here's one list (http://archimedes.galilei.com/raiar/code-10.html) of 10-codes. Here's another (http://home.webryders.net/surry/10codes.html). Here's a third (http://flashcardexchange.com/flashcards/view/230839). Here's a fourth (http://fordyce.org/cgi-bin/yabb3/YaBB.cgi?board=Clinton;action=display;num=10760981 91). Here's a fifth (http://www.totse.com/en/media/radio_scanner_frequency_lists/wvsig.html).

Quiz time!

10-26 means:

a) clear
b) motor vehicle collision with fatality
c) disregard last information
d) estimated time of arrival
e) destroying property

Answer: !evoba eht fo ynA

If you bring in the military you're going to have a whole bunch of other prowords and prosigns. Expect NATO standard radio procedure. The military hasn't heard of 10-codes.

[Mistook]

Thanks for the links Uncle Jim!

I'm also trying to find out what the system or rationale is behind how an officer identifies himself. Seems like they blurt out a string of numbers or some such.

In the draft dialogue, I've resorted to the very cheesy "Car twelve, proceeding to Ashland and Melrose."

I realize in reality it's more like "Twenty four fifty five David. We are ten thrity seven to the fourteen Adam nine. Thirty eight?"

[Denis Castellan]

Twenty four fifty five David. We are ten thrity seven to the fourteen Adam nine. Thirty eight?"Oh thank you, twenty four fifty five David. Thirty eight yourself and kiss sixty two eleven Victor good-night for me!"

Do all policemen use 10-codes ? Don't they sometimes just speak plain English on the radio ?

Since they do it in films, they might as well do it in written stories. Couldn't you just use a "10-33" (or whichever code you need) for the flavor and make the rest of the message understandable to the reader ?

[three seven]

Not sure whether this is helpful, but the Illinios National Guard only fly Chinooks and Blackhawks.

[ChunkyC]

I think Denis has a point. Perhaps, once you have done all the research, you could write it out technically correct with 10-codes and military-speak, then whittle away at it, putting back regular english until you have a universally recognizable exchange with enough of the codes and lingo to really make the reader feel they are right there in the copter.

Have fun, Mistook!

[Jamesaritchie]

Where the 10-codes came from:

Back in the early days of police radio, the transmission didn't start as soon as you pressed the button, so the first syllable would get cut off. The number 10 was added to the start of the codes, so that it wouldn't matter if the first syllable was clipped off or not.

There were only nine codes back then.

Here's one list (http://archimedes.galilei.com/raiar/code-10.html) of 10-codes. Here's another (http://home.webryders.net/surry/10codes.html). Here's a third (http://flashcardexchange.com/flashcards/view/230839). Here's a fourth (http://fordyce.org/cgi-bin/yabb3/YaBB.cgi?board=Clinton;action=display;num=10760981 91). Here's a fifth (http://www.totse.com/en/media/radio_scanner_frequency_lists/wvsig.html).

Quiz time!

10-26 means:

a) clear
b) motor vehicle collision with fatality
c) disregard last information
d) estimated time of arrival
e) destroying property

Answer: !evoba eht fo ynA

If you bring in the military you're going to have a whole bunch of other prowords and prosigns. Expect NATO standard radio procedure. The military hasn't heard of 10-codes.

In my state, 10-26 means "Detaining subject, expedite" in the general use code that all agencies follow, and "Clear for further info" in the 10 code the local department uses to talk to each other.

[Jamesaritchie]

"Oh thank you, twenty four fifty five David. Thirty eight yourself and kiss sixty two eleven Victor good-night for me!"

Do all policemen use 10-codes ? Don't they sometimes just speak plain English on the radio ?

Since they do it in films, they might as well do it in written stories. Couldn't you just use a "10-33" (or whichever code you need) for the flavor and make the rest of the message understandable to the reader ?

Police oficers do use regular English, but sometimes they must use the 10 code, either "normal" or local."

The 10 code makes communication much easier, and it seems everyone has a police scanner these days. They also use "secure" channels.

There are websites online where you can actually listen to police broadcasts in several major cities. Listening to some of these may give you a better feel for how they speak.

[Jonathon Michaels]

This is very true. As I said earlier, in the military both we and the local police mainly used codes for extremely urgent situations.

As for the identifiers, they aren't as difficult as they sound. Each locale has it's own methods, but they're basically variations on a theme.

For example, on base each unit had a designation. Golf for gates, Papa for patrols, etc. So if I was the third unit on patrol and needed to talk to our second gate, the beginning of my transmission would simply be who I wanted to talk to followed by my identification, or sometimes reversed with a "to" in the middle:

"Golf-2 Papa-3 [message]" or "Papa-3 to Golf-2 [message]"

They were pretty relaxed where I was stationed (stateside) when it came to signing off. Usually the generic "Roger" or "10-4" or "Out" worked. Most of the time though, unless it was a situation where you really needed to make sure the other party was okay, we just let normal conversation rules end them. Once a question or statement was responded to we'd say "10-4" or "Thanks" or equivalent.

You did often hear a unit say they'd be 10-8 at the mess hall for a meal, or at another location without stating a reason, which usually meant a bathroom break. I think much of this was due to the popularity of scanners. While by regulations we didn't use 10 codes 10-4, 10-8, and 10-20 sort of carried over. (10-8 meaning in service and 10-20 meaning location.) When things broke out, of course, most reverted to more official styles depending on their in-house regulations.

The local and state police there had different codes and designations for units but they pretty much followed the same procedures. Unless things have changed dramatically with radio protocol in the last few years, I would definitely sprinkle codes through instead of using them extensively, except for certain ones.

Of course again, this is something that can be dramatically different in certain locations, so there is really no substitute for local research where your story takes place. As for variations on the codes, the website I linked to earlier is for Illinois, and might even have your area listed, although I'd still check to make sure they're correct from an official source.

[Mistook]

Wow! I would think the information getting consolodated in this thread could be invaluable to any fiction writer. In any story that takes place in "today" there's bound to be cops and/or military involved, even if it's just the cop sitting in the corner drinking his coffee.

Thanks, all you guys (and notice how it's all guys) for all the links, examples, and explanations thus far.

What's really suprising me is the level of "nuance" to this idea of radio procedure. I intend to put this into my WIP. When the local cops are chatting among themselves, and everything's cool, the codes are casual. When things rachet up, the codes get stricter.

Right there I want to stop and say that I think the "impenetrable" aspect of pure code can be used to great effect in a novel when it comes at the height of a crisis. At that point, the reader presumably gets a distinct idea what the hell they're going on about, but the opacity of the code heightens the sense of panic.

Okay, and then when other groups get involved, like the Sheriff, the FBI, and the National Guard, The code breaks down into plain english... probably peppered with codes whenever one group doesn't want the other groups to know what they're saying.

So at the peak of a multi-task force crisis, the curve would go from casual english, to broken english, to a flurry of five different codes going off, to plain old cursing and swearing!

[Jonathon Michaels]

The code breaks down into plain english... probably peppered with codes whenever one group doesn't want the other groups to know what they're saying.

So at the peak of a multi-task force crisis, the curve would go from casual english, to broken english, to a flurry of five different codes going off, to plain old cursing and swearing!

When a group wouldn't want another to know what they're saying, they'd likely use another means of communication or a separate channel. Having codes known well enough by enough people in an organization to make them useful almost assures someone at some point will leak them.

We also had rotating codes for two secure channels which we would switch to for quick comments or less formal conversation. If something was too important to worry about being picked up or too lengthy to take up radio traffic, we would be directed to find a landline and call the desk, or another number where the party involved was located so we could talk openly.

As for cursing and swearing, things have to get pretty hectic for them to allow these to slip, and even then usually there was mention of it if not a reprimand, however minor. This too, I would assume, is because of the scanners and keeping the appearance of professionalism. I'm not sure if you were joking about that or not but just in case you weren't I thought I'd ramble. I'll stop now. :Ssh:

[Denis Castellan]

When a group wouldn't want another to know what they're saying, they'd likely use another means of communication or a separate channel. Having codes known well enough by enough people in an organization to make them useful almost assures someone at some point will leak them.This has been used in films : Group A (say the local Sheriff and his guys) will use a language Group B (say the FBI) won't understand because

1) Group B have it wrong about the real danger but won't let Group A handle the situation,
2) The leader of Group B turns out to be the Bad Guy and one guy in Group A just found this out.

So they won't communicate with 10-codes but with stuff like "There's a party at the Pancake Lady's." Of course, we have already met the Sheriff's old aunt who makes excellent pancakes for her nephew and his guys at the beginning of the film...

From a technical point of view, you still have to decide if Auntie makes pancakes the north-american way or in the french style. That's a matter of ingredients and thickness of the pancakes, and the use of maple syrup :)

[Jamesaritchie]

When a group wouldn't want another to know what they're saying, they'd likely use another means of communication or a separate channel. Having codes known well enough by enough people in an organization to make them useful almost assures someone at some point will leak them.

We also had rotating codes for two secure channels which we would switch to for quick comments or less formal conversation. If something was too important to worry about being picked up or too lengthy to take up radio traffic, we would be directed to find a landline and call the desk, or another number where the party involved was located so we could talk openly.

As for cursing and swearing, things have to get pretty hectic for them to allow these to slip, and even then usually there was mention of it if not a reprimand, however minor. This too, I would assume, is because of the scanners and keeping the appearance of professionalism. I'm not sure if you were joking about that or not but just in case you weren't I thought I'd ramble. I'll stop now. :Ssh:

It's funny, but my brother-in-law is a recently retired police officer, and he said that when they switched codes, or started using local language, half the time he couldn't even follow the conversation.

The last couple of years before he retired, he said he spent as much time on his cellphone as on the radio, just so he could speak in plain English.

[Mistook]

Well, it's a landmark night for me. After work I buckled down and found the instruction manual online for my salvaged scanner. I also found all the frequencies used by the city (Motorola Type II trunk system) and successfully programmed them in!

:Trophy:


Now I'm off for a night of real-time research with the local PD and FD.

[Mistook]

I'm really peicing together the local police "lingo" tonight, but I think the first and most important thing to know is that dispatch is all women, and every dispatch chick has her own sexy way of saying "Ten-four."

I can hear it! They're "vogue"-ing with the "Ten-Four".

[katdad]

Many police have quit using ten-codes. Houston police don't use them, and haven't for many years.

There are several reasons why they don't use them, and instead just use brief, common English descriptions..

1- the codes are easy to forget or get mixed up in an emergency
2- different definitions exist for the same numeric codes
3- it's one more thing to learn that has little real value

So they just say "traffic stop" or "felony evading" or "shots fired" or "lunch" or whatever.

However, cops everywhere, just like military, have their own set of slang terms. Some are fairly universal, some are unique to the jurisdiction.

You may wish to create your own colorful slang term that "originated" from an earlier "true" incident. Some individuals may also have a favorite slang term that they themselves created.

For example, my homicide lieutenant calls any open-shut case a "slammer".

Although not earth-shaking, small things like that may add to the flavor of the narrative.

[Mistook]

From what I've heard over the scanner tonight, following along with a web page of Illinois ten-codes, my local cops are very much dedicated to the ten-code system. It's more than a casual "Ten-four".

I hear plain english when something requires a dimension of nuance, but still, it's a regimented cop english.

"Subject is very vocal tonight."

Which means he's drunk and raving.


But most of the transmission has been simple queries from dispatch as to the status of a car.

"302, what's your traffic?"
"Twenty three."

Which means he's arrived at the scene. If it's not 23, it's a street location, meaning they are heading to the scene, and are currently at Galena and Smith.

OR

"Three oh two, clear."
and dispatch repeats back his number, "Three oh two." to acknowledge that he's done and ready for a new assignment.