Dorrance / Whitmore / RoseDog Books / Red Lead Press / I-Proclaim

[Kazuir]

Anyone know anything about Whitmore Publishing Co.? Website says it's been around since 1961, but no listed in Preditors and Editors... thanks.

[rlfulgham]

I've complained about the publishers I've signed up with so that this may ound incredible. But I've signed up with a publisher who is actually sending galley proofs around to create some interest and maybe some blurbs -- or even a foreword. They didn't ask me for a list, either. But they have asked if "there are any individuals or organizations which you especially want us to send galleys". Someone on one of these forums said there were four places where reviews especially mattered. I think Publishers Weekly was one. Does anyone know these four "must" reviewers? Library journal, maybe? By the way, it is a heady experience to finally have one of my publishers sending out galleys! What a rush! I mean, after publishAmerica devoured my neck -- I'm shocked by what should be expected treatment from a publisher. I'm not to reveal the name of this publisher because I fear someone hear will delibrately rain on my parade again. But I swear, we're up to sending galleys and I've seen no crookedness yet. They use POD technology for the proofs to send out, then an offset for the first real edition. Could it be that I've found a legit publisher? :wha

[ncq13]

Please send me the name of your publisher, so I can add them to my list!! Ezboard mail is fine.

[James D Macdonald]

Publishers Weekly
Library Journal
Booklist
Kirkus

<hr>

The publisher should already have those on their automatic-send list. Add any major regional/state newpapers for your location to the list.

Digital technology is a perfectly reasonable tech for advance reading copies/bound galleys. (That's how PA gets away with claiming that Random House prints more books "on demand" than they do.)

I look forward to hearing about your success.

[rlfulgham]

Thanks for the list. I suspect the publisher has them all ready, as they only asked me for any special places I wanted galleys sent -- like "The Civil War Times" book reviewer. (The book is a massive story about the War for Southern Independence, as I prefer to call it.) Whether or not I get screwed again is yet to be seen. If not, I'll certainly reccomend them here. If they do try to get at my wallet -- here at this late date -- you can be positive I'll plaster their scam all over the internet. Right now, I'm holding my breath, afraid to say anything at all.

[NomadPress]

Aside from the book trade and book review editors of relevant papers (in your city, state, and region so you can be billed as a local author), you should compile a list of publications relevant to your book: in your case, your list should include any and all Civil War-specific publications, and American heritage glossies that have book review sections. Depending on the topic and research (I assume it's nonfiction?) you should send it to Smithsonian, Atlantic Monthly, Rain Taxi, New Yorker, NYTBR, etc.
If it's fiction, stick to subject-specific publications and local papers.

[Writerjay6]

Has anyone had any experience with Dorrance Press? Thanks

[AC Crispin]

Dorrance is a vanity press. They will charge you more than 10,000 dollars for about 1000 copies of your book.

I've seen them charge as high as 19,000 for 1000 copies of a book.

They do no marketing or promotion. Your books will not be placed in bookstores.

Vanity publishing is not considered any sort of "real" publishing credit.

If you have more questions, may I suggest that you read the section on vanity publishing on Writer Beware?

www.writerbeware.com (http://www.writerbeware.com)

-Ann C. Crispin
Writer Beware
www.writerbeware.com (http://www.writerbeware.com)

STORMS OF DESTINY
HarperCollins/Eos
August 2005
www.accrispin.com (http://www.accrispin.com)

[edfrzr]

Hey guys. It's me again with yet another question about a site that has been recommended to me or that I have somehow miraculously discovered.

I am hoping that at some point in time I am able to reciprocate the great help and information that I have been given thus far.

Someone tell me about RoseDog.com. It is only $10/yr to subcribe (no big deal). But, will it be another kiss of death or just a pleasant killing of time?

thanks again.

[DaveKuzminski]

Bad dog. Bad, bad. Now let go of the writer!

Need I say more?

Actually, I probably should. Edfrzr, if you haven't visited P&E yet, then you should do so. Many of the agencies and publishers you are asking about are already listed there with recommendations and warnings. There's no need to ask about each and every one in a separate topic. P&E is at http://anotherealm.com/prededitors/

[James D. Macdonald]

Yet Another Display Site.

A waste of time and money. In this case, it's owned by a major vanity press.

Do you want agents and editors to look at your works? Print 'em out, seal 'em in an envelope, address that envelope to the editor or agent, and carry it to the post office.

Real editors and agents have desks that are groaning with manuscripts that were addressed to them personally. They aren't going to go out surfing the internet looking for more slush.

The bottom-feeders, though ... the vanity presses, the fake agents, the book doctors, the scammers and the clueless ... they haunt the display sites and will write you flattering letters.

The only advantage of a display site is this: Since you haven't actually submitted anything anywhere, you won't actually get rejected anywhere. If never getting rejected is important to you, by all means, send 'em your money.

[edfrzr]

Ouch!! Isn't it amazing how the truth stings like a...?

Thanks

[Vipersniper]

:snoopy: I would like to know since I have tried to find out elsewhere on search engine if anyone has any information about Whitmore Publishing. They seem for now to only give an email address. However I have found very little other than perhaps a complaint that they bait and switch. So what gives? I made one mistake I do not want to make another.

[CaoPaux]

Whitmore was once a commercial publisher, but was recently bought by Dorrance, an expensive vanity press. Although they claim to still have a "traditional" imprint, be careful that you don't get funneled into any of their pay-to-play services.

[maestrowork]

I searched for books by Whitmore in Amazon... nothing dated later than 1993. They DID seem to have some good titles. But I wonder if they're now dysfunct.

If they're now part of a vanity press, then it's not a good thing.

[Vipersniper]

:thankyou: I thought so and that is why I suspect I got a call from Dorrance. I like your picture of the dog it looks like my little guy Ringo. I think that I will keep checking with some of the places here in order to send in my series of short stories particular about dogs. And my second book that I am working on. I should have known about this site when I first started looking for a publisher. But I found you guys now and I will be a faithful reader.

[Delirium Author]

Does anyone know of any publisher that meets most or all of the following qualifications?

A) Is not Publish America. :Soapbox:
B) Does not charge a reader's fee
C) Does not require an agent. :Wha:
D) Actually gets your book in stores like the kind people shop in :Huh:
E) Does not have any PA-like dishonesty/shadiness in their business dealings.

Have any of you heard anything about Whitmore Publishing? I am trying them out at the moment for this book I just finished. Any news?

Chad
www.dahcstudios.com (http://www.dahcstudios.com)

[Uncarved]

well you need to say whether its a fiction or nonfiction book. and what genre/category it falls it. That would narrow down the publishers. You should get a copy of 2005 Writers Market

[James D. Macdonald]

Whitmore Publishing is owned by Dorrance, which is a major vanity press.

Go to a bookstore. Find books similar to yours. See who published them. Write to those publishers for their guidelines. Follow those guidelines to the letter.

While you're waiting to hear, write another, better, book.

[Vomaxx]

The following publishers, who specialize in fantasy/SF, meet your requirements, according to their websites:

Ace

Baen

Daw

Spectra

Tom Doherty (Tor)

[Vipersniper]

:Spam: They will spam you with other offers of publishing at a lesser fee. Run don't walk from them and they do keep calling you once they get your number. Oh they send an impressive looking package for your book but I agree with the previous post avoid them. Someone said they sneak in under Whitmore Publishing and I am waiting to see what happens with an inquiry that I sent to Whitmore to find out if this is true.

[hapsburg]

"Whitmore Publishing is owned by Dorrance, which is a major vanity press."

Are you sure? I've looked at their website and haven't seen clues to that, nor in the submission guidlines they sent. They've pubbed Warren Adler and require the same type of cover with marketing info and credits that other houses do...

[SeanDSchaffer]

I'm actually planning on sending my next Fantasy manuscript to Tor; I've heard a lot of good things about them. I don't know if that'll help you out or not but I think it's worth a shot.

By the way, I found this potential lead through the idea that James D. MacDonald spoke of above. Very effective method, I might say.

[James D. Macdonald]

"Whitmore Publishing is owned by Dorrance, which is a major vanity press."

Are you sure? I've looked at their website and haven't seen clues to that, nor in the submission guidlines they sent. They've pubbed Warren Adler and require the same type of cover with marketing info and credits that other houses do...

Whitmore pubbed Warren Adler back in 1974. That Whitmore went out of business sometime in the early 1990s. The current Whitmore has no apparent connection with the previous publisher of the same name.

Here's the WHOIS data on their website (http://whitmorepublishing.com):

Registrant:
Whitmore Publishing (JZGHFDOXED)
926 Liberty Avenue
Third Floor
Pittsburgh, PA 15222
US

Domain Name: WHITMOREPUBLISHING.COM

Administrative Contact:
Whitmore Publishing (38901929O) rhershey@dorrancepublishing.com
926 Liberty Avenue
Third Floor
Pittsburgh, PA 15222
US
412-288-4543 fax: 412-434-8430

Technical Contact:
Hershey, Rosemary (32860711I) rhershey@dorrancepublishing.com
701 Smithfield Street
Third Floor
Pittsburgh, PA 15222
US
412-288-4543

Record expires on 29-Oct-2009.
Record created on 29-Oct-2003.
Database last updated on 8-Mar-2005 16:11:19 EST.


Here's Dorrance's street address:

Dorrance Publishing Co., Inc.
701 Smithfield Street
3rd Floor
Pittsburgh, PA 15222, U.S.A.



I'd call that a match.

[Uncarved]

*grins*
I'm someone who knows better than to question Uncle Jim :)

[James D. Macdonald]

Check out one of this Whitmore's early ads (http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:NhQegOKJ6ooJ:www.shopping.com/xGS-publisher+%22whitmore+publishing%22&hl=en&client=firefox-a):

Whitmore Publishing
Book publisher seeking new authors No publishing fee. We pay you.
whtimorepublishing.com

(Yes, they really did misspell their own URL -- but not to worry, the link works fine.)

See who else advertises in the same space? Trafford. Booksurge. AuthorHouse.

Birds of a feather....

[CaoPaux]

Hence the Rule of Thumb: Avoid publishers (and agents) who run Google ads. Or advertise at all, really. Those ads in the back of Writer’s Digest, etc? All vanity and/or disreputable operations. :Lecture:

[victoriastrauss]

Does anyone know of any publisher that meets most or all of the following qualifications?...

A) Is not Publish America.
B) Does not charge a reader's fee
C) Does not require an agent.
D) Actually gets your book in stores like the kind people shop inThe very best way to find which publishers get books into stores is to go to the store and look at the books that are on the shelves.

I don't recommend you go agentless if you're approaching an imprint of one of the large publishing houses. Even the imprints that accept unagented work (and there are fewer and fewer of them) may make you wait a really, really long time (how long? Some people have been waiting two years or more to hear back from Baen) and give unagented submissions low priority.

Whitmore apparently does publish at least some books fee-free (though it's an open question as to whether they do anything to distribute and market). But as Uncle Jim said, this company is owned by Dorrance, and if you use the online form to submit, the fine print at the very bottom of the page says you're agreeing to be contacted by "affiliate" publishers--which means you'll probably get a solicitation from Dorrance.

- Victoria

[arainsb123]

That's EXACTLY what happened to me! I submitted to Whitmore and never got a reply. However, I did get a solicitation via email a few days later -- I always wondered how Dorrance got my contact information and MS title, and now I know!

[Uncarved]

I've been a believer that real publishing houses don't advertise because they have plenty of authors already to PROMOTE. Fake houses advertise because they always have room for another BUYER.

[Vipersniper]

:Shrug: :banana: I asked the same question and then wondered why Dorrance Publishing sent me one of those letters asking for my manuscript. So I would have to say that what the others say about Whitmore Publishing is correct and I will delete them from my favorites and my email address. But I have heard that there is supposed to be 56,000 publishers out there that do not charge a fee or something like that. So far I have gone through page after page of engine search and came across Whitmore House, PA, Dorrance, Author House, Iverse etc but no real valid information until I came here. So I will be haunting this site and taking the advice of James, Victoria, Ed Williams which is what I should have done in the first place. I will say that I have heard some good news from some valid references found here.

[James D. Macdonald]

There aren't 56,000 publishers. There are 56,000 publishing-related businesses. There are around 20,000 publishers, and that's right the way down to museums that publish calendars, dog-fancier societies that publish newsletters, and printshops that publish an annual cookbook for Old Home Days.

You might consider getting a copy of Writer's Market.

Remember: writers do not pay to get published. If you haven't seen books by a certain publisher in your local bookstore with your own eyes, you should cross that publisher off your list.

Before you submit to a publisher, get a couple of their books and read 'em. Are they well produced? Well edited? Attractive?

[hapsburg]

Jim you oughta get a job with intellectual rights law and fraud or something, you're like the FBI with your info... They look less like a vanity than the average, PA I knew from first sight but this one looked polished enough to at least trick me into asking for more info.What a waste of time these damn scammers are, I should bill them for $10.50 an hour for the time I waste reading their crap. I get emails from vanities occassionally, but never phone calls. If they call me I'm going to bill them for a consultation fee.

[hapsburg]

Hold on a sec, some guy is praising them in the ask the agent forum under "will a big endorsement..." thread. What's up with that?

[mdin]

I'm curious why you don't want an agent. Is it because you've tried and couldn't find one, or is there some other reason?

Getting a reputable agent doesn't guarantee the sale of your book to a good publisher, but your odds increase tenfold (hundredfold? thousandfold?).

Some of those larger publishers who take unsolicited manuscripts hold on to them for a very long time. It took Baen a year and a half to reject me. (And I had mailed them requesting it be withdrawn 14 months earlier because I had sold it to someone else.) The upside was they had read the entire thing and gave me a detailed rejection.

[mdin]

. I get emails from vanities occassionally, but never phone calls. If they call me I'm going to bill them for a consultation fee.

I was getting phone calls, letters in the mail, email, smoke signals, etc., from vanity presses/writers retreats/online writing courses for awhile, and I couldn't figure out how they knew me. I hadn't registered any copyrights, I haven't self-published anything, and my website certainly doesn't have my phone number on it. A couple months ago, I got four flyers in the mail for different writers conferences on the same day, and I called one of them up and asked how I got on their mailing list. The woman was very helpful.

Damn you, Poets and Writers magazine! :Soapbox: it's bad enough you have more ads now than Redbook. Now you have to sell my name to everybody, too?

[James D. Macdonald]

That's Richard Lee Fulgham. His track record is Lulu.com, PublishAmerica, American Book Publishing, and Overmountain Press. He has a short story in an anthology edited by Jessica Amanda Salmonson.

We'll see what becomes of his book. It has a striking cover (http://www.writers.net/writers/38349) but isn't yet listed at Amazon or BN.com.

[Vipersniper]

:LilLove: I always find a reasonable answer here and yes I think that James would make a great FBI agent in fact my character was a guy like him oh well maybe that will work in the next book. I did get a copy of Writer's Digest and lo and behold if the Writer's Market is not mentioned there. I took that big old royalty check and bought the magazine. So I like the ones where you find good information. I get hit by spammers too but not I just spam them back. Looking at the Writer's Digest book club it looks like this might be a route that I would go. Mae West used to say money is no good unless you spread it around. I once had a $26,000.00 library in my home that burned down. That shows how much I like to read. So I am taking you up on that suggestion. Want to hear a new myth about PA they say if you want to see the sheets on the how the royalties are calculated come to Maryland. Like do they really want me to do that? I may take along a skunk to put in the boiler room like we did in highschool. But I truly am not that far from them. Like they can't be found? But at least I got my three letters to send to Va. BBB.

[gregorydefeo]

Does anyone know about the program that Barnes&Noble
has established to work with authors to help publish their
book?

[James D. Macdonald]

You don't mean "iUniverse," do you?

[gregorydefeo]

I remember a year ago seeing a brochure, but did not
take it too seriously. I thought their website would
have some info. about it, but it does not.
Do you know anything about it as far as details go?

[James D. Macdonald]

If you're talking about iUniverse, it's a vanity PoD.

B&N owns 22% of the company. (They used to own 49%, but they've been selling off their share.)

[gregorydefeo]

Thank you!

[arainsb123]

Of the "Big 3" PODs, iUniverse is the best based on both personal experience and research ... though that's not saying much of anything. Xlibris has been calling me, and AuthorHouse was emailing me before I blocked them.

However, I wouldn't recommend PODing to any fiction writer.

[astonwest]

Of the "Big 3" PODs, iUniverse is the best based on both personal experience and research ... though that's not saying much of anything. Xlibris has been calling me, and AuthorHouse was emailing me before I blocked them.

Isn't AuthorHouse just the new name for iUniverse?

[James D. Macdonald]

No, AuthorHouse is the new name for 1st Books Library.

[BlueTexas]

Of the "Big 3" PODs, iUniverse is the best based on both personal experience and research ... though that's not saying much of anything. Xlibris has been calling me, and AuthorHouse was emailing me before I blocked them.

However, I wouldn't recommend PODing to any fiction writer.

My uncle published a book with IUniverse last year. He's having fits at the moment because the book isn't even for sale on the website anymore, nor is it on amazon.

His book was decent--not great, but it's a war story and I'm not the biggest fan. Somehow the poor man didn't know writers should be paid, and not the other way round. How does someone NOT know that? I mean, this is a 60 year old man!

[James D. Macdonald]

How does someone NOT know that? I mean, this is a 60 year old man!

You'd be surprised. I'm not surprised any more: Every writer (http://www.sff.net/people/yog/) has stories; (http://www.sfwa.org/writing/anti-scam.htm)
folks just seem to assume that paying to get published is the norm.

[astonwest]

No, AuthorHouse is the new name for 1st Books Library.

I figured I was mistaken...but couldn't think of the other major POD I was missing...

[astonwest]

folks just seem to assume that paying to get published is the norm.

Perhaps I was lucky that my first experience with a vanity was when Vantage Press sent me a contract where they asked me to shell out $10K. There was no way I was paying that kind of money, and so I realized that paying money up front wasn't where I needed to be.

Unfortunately, I still got suckered in by PA. So, for whatever that's worth...

[mistri]

It's been said before on this thread, but it's always worth repeating. Rather than use the net as the first place to search for a publisher (where you're likely to come across scammers advertising for victims), check your book shelves and nearby bookshops first. For example, I seem to own mostly HarperCollins Voyager, Orbit, Tor and Orion/Gollancz books in my (UK) SF/F collection, so I would want to look them up first. At this point, with a list in hand, it might be worth researching the names you've gathered on the net or in a book.

[victoriastrauss]

It's been said before on this thread, but it's always worth repeating. Rather than use the net as the first place to search for a publisher (where you're likely to come across scammers advertising for victims), check your book shelves and nearby bookshops first.I second this very good advice. A good print market guide, such as Jeff Herman's book, is also a good place to begin.

The Internet is an invaluable adjunct research resource, but it should NOT be where you start looking for agents and publishers.

- Victoria

[DaveKuzminski]

I'm not entirely convinced that print guides, such as Jeff Herman's which is good, are all that good. After all, those generally rely upon input from the agencies. For that reason, their information bears a distinct slant that always favors the agency.

On the other hand, sources on the Internet such as Writer Beware, Absolute Write, P&E, and others, have multiple sources for their information rather than from just the agencies. For that reason, the Internet sources carry less of a bias toward just one direction. In fact, I think we're in the process of seeing at least one type of reference book being supplanted.

Still, I do agree that writers should use multiple sources. Don't accept just one even if it's as good as those I've mentioned.

[allion]

FWIW,

I started by a trip to the library and an afternoon with the Literary Marketplace. I made a list of agents that said they dealt with fantasy, then brought the list home and started doing cross-references between P&E, other beware sites, and Google searches. As to be expected, several of the agents had changed their contact info/websites/etc. since the book printing, or had closed entirely. I also subscribe to Publisher's Marketplace to see who is working with new writers or work that sounds similar to my own.

You have to do some work to find someone reliable and decent to work with. It's just like trying to find someone to remodel your kitchen, or do an addition to a house - you have to check them out, check their references, ask around to see if their work is shoddy or not.

It's very much a business relationship that you are going to enter into with an agent, and this may be the hardest thing for an aspiring writer to comprehend. At least, it was for me.

Karen

[DaveKuzminski]

Allion is quite correct. Reminds me of a contractor I asked for an estimate last week for house siding. The contractor wanted me to state that we had a deal. I kept asking for the estimate. He finally left when I pointed out that I intended to not only check with other companies but that I would read his contract carefully before I signed anything.

The following day, we received a call from his office asking what the problem was which I explained and if they could send someone else. We agreed to let them send someone else the following night. He didn't appear until two nights later. He wanted to come in. I said he should measure the outside of the house so he could give me an estimate as that was what he was there for. Then I stepped back inside and closed the door. He rang the doorbell about fifteen minutes later. When I answered, he stated that he couldn't see his company working with us. I agreed and watched him leave. Too bad his company couldn't deal straight with me. I would have been paying cash for the siding and installation.

[James D. Macdonald]

Whitmore now has one book in its on-line bookstore: The Hogs of Cold Harbor (http://www.whitmorebooks.com/hoofcohaciwa.html), ISBN 0-87426-058-2, $29.00 paperback.

(There is also an e-book edition, apparently a pdf file, for $24.00.)

So far the book is not listed with Ingram, nor is it on BN.com or Amazon.com.


=============

Update:

They have two non-fiction books:

Killing the Natives (http://www.whitmorebooks.com/kinahasamdrb.html), paperback, ISBN: 0-87426-059-0, $20.00, 218 pages (or $15 as a pdf file).
From Poverty to Potential (http://www.whitmorebooks.com/kinahasamdrb.html), paperback, ISBN: 0-87426-060-4, $10.00, 54 pages (or $5 as a pdf file).

Neither is listed with the on-line booksellers.

[sgtsdaughter]

whitmore is now part of a vanity press, i am sorry to say. i contacted them, and they me, late last year. needless to say, i am still shopping the novel.

Annessa

[James D. Macdonald]

The Whitmore that was around since 1961 went out of business in the early nineties. This new Whitmore (even though it lists that publisher's books on its webpage) doesn't have any apparent connection with the earlier one. Certainly all the books have long since reverted and the editing, production, and marketing staff moved on.

The current Whitmore is owned by a vanity press, Dorrance. Their web ads fill me with dread: "Book publisher seeking new authors. No publishing fee. We pay you."

I would approach this one with extreme caution.

[victoriastrauss]

From what I've been told, Whitmore makes no attempt to market or distribute its books, apart from online listings. The cover prices are very high (this is consistent with a POD-based operation). It claims to send ARCs to reviewers, but even if it really does this, the likelihood of actually garnering a review is probably pretty slim.

- Victoria

[James D. Macdonald]

On the positive side, Whitmore's advance is reportedly ten times higher than PublishAmerica's.

[CaoPaux]

On the positive side, Whitmore's advance is reportedly ten times higher than PublishAmerica's.Ouch! http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/grinser/grinning-smiley-047.gif

[nagymom]

I'm a tad late to this discussion but wanted to say THANK YOU for your posts. I ran across an ad for them on google and was tempted to submit but that little voice in the back of my head kept insisting that I check it out. (And through the assistance of a fellow writer I found your posts). It just bugged me the way they insist that they accept no paper manuscripts, that any work must be submitted via a Word attachment. Where is the proof that YOU are the submitting author with that system?
I'm sure glad I listened to that little voice. I think I'll pass.

Jayne/nagymom

[sgtsdaughter]

Yup, and rule of thumb--if a publisher is advertising there is something wrong. Good publishers don't need to advertise because they have enough submissions and slush piles to last them through the lean times.

[mdin]

I've been inundated with ads for this company lately. I think they smell blood in the water with PA and are getting ready to pounce on their market share.

I can just see two years from now, stickied at the top of this forum: The Neverending Whitmore Publishing Thread.

[zizban]

In tiny print at the bottom of their submissions web page:
By clicking submit, you agree to receive information about publishing services available from Whitmore Publishing and its affiliated companies.

Niiiiiiiiiiice :crazy:

[J. Y. Moore]

The Whitmore that was around since 1961 went out of business in the early nineties. This new Whitmore (even though it lists that publisher's books on its webpage) doesn't have any apparent connection with the earlier one. Certainly all the books have long since reverted and the editing, production, and marketing staff moved on.

The current Whitmore is owned by a vanity press, Dorrance. Their web ads fill me with dread: "Book publisher seeking new authors. No publishing fee. We pay you."

I would approach this one with extreme caution.

This sure sounds like PublishAmerica's saw. They almost snared me. Thanks to SFWA's Author Beware, I didn't sign the contract PA sent!

[MadScientistMatt]

Anyone else notice that the Neverending PublishAmerica thread has Whitmore Publishing Google Ads starting to turn up in it? I have to wonder if they are deliberately targeting pages that mention Publish Anything.

[Kasey Mackenzie]

It wouldn't surprise me at all to find out that was a marketing ploy on their part! It sounds like the two companies are birds of a feather...Hopefully fewer people fall prey to them than PA!

[inkserotica]

Hi!

Perhaps someone could help me. Does anyone have any information about this publisher?

I must have done this a while ago and then forgot all about it, until I received this, sent as an attachment:

TO: author
RE: Request to review your completed manuscript


Thank you for visiting the Dorrance Publishing Company web site.

After reviewing the brief synopsis of the work that you provided, we would be interested in having you submit your manuscript when you have finished writing it. Do you have a projected completion date?
If so, please respond to me at your earliest convenience.

You indicated that your manuscript is incomplete, however, we have found that sometimes authors do not realize when a manuscript is suitable to be reviewed for possible publication. As a reminder, we consider a completed manuscript to be:

 Poetry - At least 12 poems (most poets send between 25-75)

 Fiction and non-fiction - 15,000 words or more

 Children's books - 12 pages (This includes future illustrations. The text will probably only be a couple of pages. You needn't have the illustrations complete, but please include a separate page describing the look of the illustrations, and whether or not you wish to have someone on
our staff draw them.)

When you find yourself with a completed manuscript, the quickest and easiest manner for you to submit your completed work for our review is in a digital format (that is, saved as one file in Microsoft Word, WordPerfect or another commonly used word processing program).

You may submit this digital file by simply clicking on reply to this e-mail and attaching your file. Submissions by mail are also welcome. These may be on CD or diskette or of typewritten or word-processed paper copies. Our postal address is: Dorrance Publishing Company, 701 Smithfield St., Pittsburgh, PA 15222.

A copy of our brochure, “The Authors Guide to Subsidy Publishing,” will also be sent to you if you have provided your full name and address. If you have questions or concerns, please E-mail me at dhinote@dorrancepublishing.com, or call me at 1-800-873-6160.

Dale Hinote
Author Relations Representative


At first, I thought, 'What??? When did I do that??' Then I realised I submitted the form on the website here (http://www.dorrancepublishing.com/info.asp)to obtain the information they were advertising.

So, I said that my manuscript was not complete and I gave a very, very short idea of what my novel was about. Couldn't have been more than 2 lines, at that!

Anyway, should I consider submitting the completed manuscript to this publisher, bearing in mind that it will be an erotic novel, and that has been made clear to the publishing company?

He asks for an approx time line for completion. *cough* I haven't even started yet! Yikes! But should I give a time line maybe months in advance and strive to get the novel completed by then?

Do you think that he will be patient enough to wait for me to finish it?

Or do you seriously think that this doc/letter is a standard response to the inquiry and he's not really that interested?

Or, is this something to be wary of?

Oh, I'm so ignorant of this stuff it's frightening!!


Inkserotica x

[robeiae]

Dorrance is a full-blown vanity publisher; usually, they are very upfront about it. It will probably cost you at least $10000 to publish through them, and I'm sure they will be happy to wait for you to finish.

Rob :)

[Cathy C]

Look at these and see if you have any questions afterward, or just an overwhelming desire to run screaming into the night. :D

Dorrance Publishing (aka Whitmore Publishing, Rosedog.com)
http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8500
http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8234
http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8780
http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8758
http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2828

[James D. Macdonald]

Or do you seriously think that this doc/letter is a standard response to the inquiry and he's not really that interested?

Oh, he's interested all right. He's interested in finding out if your check will clear.

[Roger J Carlson]

Here are some red flags:

You indicated that your manuscript is incomplete, however, we have found that sometimes authors do not realize when a manuscript is suitable to be reviewed for possible publication.Few real fiction publishers will consider an incomplete manuscript and for non-fiction, they'll want a completed submission packet.

As a reminder, we consider a completed manuscript to be:...
 Fiction and non-fiction - 15,000 words or moreApparently any old 15,000 words will do. Most publishers are looking for things like a fully developed plot and interesting characters, to say nothing about good grammar and sentence construction.

... Children's books - 12 pages (This includes future illustrations. The text will probably only be a couple of pages. You needn't have the illustrations complete, but please include a separate page describing the look of the illustrations, and whether or not you wish to have someone on
our staff draw them.)Few publishers of children's books will consider illustrations by the author unless the author is also a professional artist.

When you find yourself with a completed manuscript,...This one gave me a chuckle. One day you turn around and say, "Hey, I've found a completed manuscript."

A copy of our brochure, “The Authors Guide to Subsidy Publishing,” will also be sent to you This, of course, clearly states that they are a vanity press. Victoria claims there is no such thing as "subsidy" press. There's only vanity press. This means that you pay them to publish your book instead of them paying you.

[NikkiCarlyle]

I would highly recommend you stay away from them and all vanity presses. The main reason being that you can't get your books on the shelves of Barnes and Noble and places like that.

Others to stay away from:

Publish America
Xlibris (sp chk)

I hope that helps.

[inkserotica]

Thankyou! All your replies have been very helpful and I will steer clear. I'm certainly not interested in Vanity publishing at all. So far my books have been published by myself so I don't want to go down the wrong road with my novel.

All your replies are very much appreciated!

inkserotica xx

[Cathy C]

Three you might try are Harlequin (http://www.eharlequin.com/cms/learntowrite/ltwArticle.jhtml?pageID=050510wu01001) (through Boon & Mills) who are starting a new "Spice" line for erotica, Tor Books (http://www.jbwb.co.uk/usmarketnews.htm)(also starting an erotica line -- scroll down to their name on the list) and Virgin Books-Black Lace (http://www.virginbooks.com/go/sp/InfoPageErotic_45.html) in London.
Good luck!

[Dhewco]

My brother-in-law was going to go with them a few years back. But the 10,000 plus price tag really threw him. He was actually going to try their 'financing' option. I talked him into trying to write another book, one with which he might gain the interest of a normal publisher. Of course, he still hasn't submitted to another publisher, but he has never been that dependable. But at least I stopped him from going into debt to publish a book.


David

[inkserotica]

Just a quick update on this Dorrance Publishing:

Whilst in the cinema yesterday, I received a call on my mobile from an unknown number. I thought I'd missed a call from someone important like offical people or even Phaze.com etc.

Nobody ever calls me...

I received in the post this morning a card from Dorrance Publishing saying thankyou for contacting them in regards to my manuscript and that they had tried to call me to discuss my publishing plans. Oh great, I thought!

Now, this has gone a bit too far. Obviously not wanting any more contact with these people, I'm not sure what to do. Shall I email them to tell them of my wishes or just leave it and hope they go away?

I really think hassling people via post/phone is out of line and if I was interested in publishing with them I would have contacted them by now. They also sent me a booklet about publishing with them which I threw away. I thought no more about it but it seems I'm on their mailing list now.

>:(


Carrie xx

[DaveKuzminski]

Just write to them and ask if they have anymore information you can use in your expose of vanity publishing. Bet you they lose your name fast then. ;)

[James D. Macdonald]

It appears this was Whitmore Publishing, a division of Dorrance, and Richard is now over at Writer's Net singing the blues about these folks too.

http://www.writers.net/forum/read/1/22866/22866

[__VeNoM__]

Just in case none of you know already, NEVER trust Whitmore Publishing, despite how professional it appears.

For those who are considering sending a copy of a manuscript to them, it is highly recommended that they research thorougly on this publisher first. I think you will find that they give no address and furthermore they are not listed in any Business directory.

I'm not american, it's just a warning.

Whitmore publishing was a real publishing house, but that was over 20 years ago. The business folded and is now no more than a vanity publisher paying money to advertise their site all over the web.

I'd be surprised if no one has come across it yet, but for those who haven't, trust me on this one. Many (and I mean many) innocent wannabe writers have fallen victim to this scam, thus giving the vanity publishing house money to begin establishing itself.

[Christine N.]

That's because Whitmore is a division of Dorrence, a known vanity publisher. It's been pretty well documented here and other places. But a reminded never hurts.

[__VeNoM__]

Whitmore is one of the most notorious vanity publisher's. You go to their site, and they don't even give an address. Not only that, but a couple of months later, they'll send you an email offering you a contract, which you've got to pay a fee to enter into.

[Torgo]

The letter asking whether you'd like 'someone on our staff' to illustrate your children's book. That would be funny if it weren't so tragic.

[PeeDee]

Have to admit, it is clever though. I mean, by using the Whitmore name, they're able to secure some of the writers who may have actually heard of Whitmore press, or perhaps have seen an old Whitmore Press book around. It would be similar to finding a vanity press, twenty years from now, called RandomHouse and thinking, "Well, sure they're fine. I had plenty of their books."

[LiteraryGrace]

I submitted a requested book proposal earlier this month. It is an exclusive submisstion to an agent who is a member of AAR and also I have found only good standing things of this agent, no smarm or warnings. I have not heard back from agent about my manuscript yay or nay.

Today in the mail I received a generic letter from Dorrance Publishing (P&E has listed not recommended/vanity). I have never heard of this publisher before. The opening reads "One of our researchers has discovered your manuscript registration with the Library of Congress and has forwarded your name to me as a possible candidate for publication with our company."

Problems: 1) I have not listed with the Library of congress 2) Obviously they have my correct home address and 3) The note was sent to me via the name I am writing under - maiden name which I have not used otherwise for years and no one where I live knows.

I had an editor go over some of my pages before submission, she knows this information. I do have an email in to her to ask her if she might have been trying to be helpful and given out this info, but I doubt it she was exceptionally professional and we signed a confidentiality agreement.

So, since I have only submitted to this one agent......would an agent **sell** this kind of information??? Because only these two people (editor and agent) have it.

I don't know what to think and have never heard of this before.
??? Thank you for your advice.

[CaoPaux]

Have you ever registered the copyright for anything, especially using that name?

[mdin]

I seriously doubt the agent in question would do that. Names lists are only valuable when there's a whole lot of them on there.

You've never registered the copyright for anything, ever? I was (and still am) getting piled in snail-mail spam for literary this and that, and it's mostly because of my subscription to PW magazine. I bet there's something you've missed out there.

[Cathy C]

My bet is that it's spam. Many newbie authors register the copyright, not realizing it's not necessary. It's easy as pie to grab a name from a mailing list (obtained anywhere from writing books you might have purchased to website blogs) and send to a whole bunch of people blind. One or two hits is all it takes to make it worth the cost of the list.


I don't think that the agent did it.

[Jaws]

And, to make a connection clear:

When one registers the copyright, one does so with the Copyright Office—which is part of the Library of Congress. I've seen this wording from both Dorrance and Rutledge before; that's what they mean, although they're dressing it up to be more grandiloquent than the reality.

[LiteraryGrace]

I did register some artwork/designs this past April. Forgot I used the maiden name, but still...it was art not a manuscript. What kind of numbnuts must this publisher have working as their researcher? Oy Vey.

So, I suppose I jumped the gun and the agent is totally innocent, just a victim of bad timing?

Big thanks to all of you. I feel better now.
*whew*

[Inspiewriter]

Really doubt the agent had anything to do with it. Those vanity pubs are slick marketers!!

[MadScientistMatt]

I did register some artwork/designs this past April. Forgot I used the maiden name, but still...it was art not a manuscript. What kind of numbnuts must this publisher have working as their researcher?

Well, the aquisitions guy at PublishAnything that accepted Atlanta Nights and Eli and the Purple Pony had to find a job somewhere after the embarassment he gave his boss.

[CaoPaux]

LOL! But yes, the likes of Dorrance cull names from the copyright registry. If they do bother to note what was actually registered (which I doubt), I expect they figure any creative type has a ms laying around.

[Jaycinth]

Below is an e-mail solicitation that I received this afternoon. The company is not on P&E ( yet). I am in a bad mood today so I wanted to 'OUT' them. 6 boos, 6 hisses and 6 round moons!
************************************************** ********
Becoming a published author with Red Lead Press is the perfect publishing solution for authors who have been rejected by commercial publishers, find other subsidy publishing options financially challenging, and yet believe that they have something of value to share with others.

Red Lead Press allows you to enjoy the experience of becoming a published author without taking on the burden of a large financial commitment. Your total cost for publication will be $295. There are no hidden fees or add-ons. Your total fee will be $295.

To start the process of becoming a published author with Red Lead Press, simply click on this link: http://www.redleadpress.com/contact.asp (http://www.redleadpress.com/contact.asp). Complete the form you find there and you will immediately receive a publishing agreement for your consideration.

When you become a published author with Red Lead Press you will benefit from:


professional page design from text that you provide in Microsoft Word on computer disk
a full-color cover design chosen from a selection of attractive templates, then personalized with your book's information.
your book printed as a high quality paperback, perfectbound book
copyright, ISBN number and bar code provided
generous author earnings for each book sold and a generous author's discount
featured listing on the on-line Red Lead Press bookstore--part of the Yahoo! Mall
ability to order your book at thousands of booksellers nationwide
toll-free book ordering line staffed by our professional Books Sales Representatives
book orders printed quickly using print on demand technology. Books are printed and shipped to the buyer within forty-eight hours.
An added benefit of publishing with Red Lead Press is that you maintain creative control over the book's content. Red Lead Press books are published as submitted. That is, books are not edited or proofread. What you provide to us on a computer disk in Microsoft Word is exactly what gets printed in the finished book.

To start the process of becoming a published author with Red Lead Press, simply click on this link: http://www.redleadpress.com/contact.asp (http://www.redleadpress.com/contact.asp). Complete the form you find there and you will immediately receive a publishing agreement for your consideration.

You need only to print out the document, review the details of the publishing agreement, sign the agreement, and return it along with your payment and the text of your book in Microsoft Word on a computer disk. Payment may be made via personal check, money order, MasterCard, Visa, American Express and Discover.

Upon receipt of your signed agreement, we will immediately place your book into the Red Lead Press production schedule.

If you have any questions or concerns please feel free to contact me at 800-270-7654 or by e-mail at tgoss@dorrancepublishing.com (http://us.f321.mail.yahoo.com/ym/Compose?To=goss@dorrancepublishing.com).

We look forward to bringing your manuscript into print as a Red Lead Press title.

Thomas A. Goss
Author Relations Representative

This is the only e-mail that you will receive about Red Lead Press. However, if you wish you may click on reply and type "Do not contact me again about your services".

Red Lead Press, 701 Smithfield St, Pittsburgh, PA 15222
WM

[rekirts]

An added benefit of publishing with Red Lead Press is that you maintain creative control over the book's content. Red Lead Press books are published as submitted. That is, books are not edited or proofread. What you provide to us on a computer disk in Microsoft Word is exactly what gets printed in the finished book.


They're touting that as a benefit???!!! Argh!!!

Well I guess that makes me a recording artist 'cause I have a spiffy digital recording system with which I recorded to CD a song I wrote, and I had the benefit of not having any help from any experts. Woohoo! Aren't I lucky? I'm sure y'all want to buy it.

[triceretops]

Ha! damn their bloody eyes!

Tri

[victoriastrauss]

If you have any questions or concerns please feel free to contact me at 800-270-7654 or by e-mail at tgoss@dorrancepublishing.com (http://us.f321.mail.yahoo.com/ym/Compose?To=goss@dorrancepublishing.com).Note the e-mail address. Red Lead Press is a branch of Dorrance Publishing Company, one of the most expensive print vanity publishers around (Dorrance also owns Whitmore Publishing, which operates according to the PublishAmerica model--no upfront fee, relies on authors to buy own books). All three solicit authors who register their copyrights and/or subscribe to certain writers' magazines.

- Victoria

[Christine N.]

Ah, I see they're learning from PA - that famous "no edit" option. Yes, don't let editors ruin YOUR voice <eye roll>.. and please, leave all the typos, run on sentences and atrocious grammar while you're at it!

Who in their right mind thinks this is a good idea?? Oh wait, I can think of at least one person...

[maestrowork]

At least they don't call themselves "traditional publisher."

[DaveKuzminski]

They'll be listed in the next update of the P&E sites, but they'll merely be noted as a vanity publisher because they're being honest this time unlike how they handled Whitmore. Too bad PA isn't this open and honest.

[James D. Macdonald]

Registrant:
Whitmore Publishing (JZGHFDOXED)
926 Liberty Avenue
Third Floor
Pittsburgh, PA 15222
US

...

Here's Dorrance's street address:

Dorrance Publishing Co., Inc.
701 Smithfield Street
3rd Floor
Pittsburgh, PA 15222, U.S.A.




Decided to look at this a little more closely:

Here are two maps, from Mapquest:

One shows 701 Smithfield Street (http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?country=US&addtohistory=&formtype=address&searchtype=address&cat=&address=701%20Smithfield%20St&city=Pittsburgh&state=PA&zipcode=15222%2d3906&searchtab=home), the other 926 Liberty Avenue (http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?searchtype=address&country=US&addtohistory=&searchtab=home&address=+926+Liberty+Avenue&city=+Pittsburgh&state=PA&zipcode=15222).

Notice that, at least on the map, they both seem to be at the same location. My guess is that it's an office building at the intersection of Smithfield St. and Liberty Ave., that Dorrance/Whitmore's offices are on the third floor of that building, and that this is a conscious attempt to deceive.

[CaoPaux]

Google agrees. :D

Liberty Ave. (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=926+Liberty+Ave,+pittsburgh&ll=40.443795,-79.996959&spn=0.002878,0.007889&hl=en)

Smithfield St. (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=701+Smithfield+St,+pittsburgh&spn=0.002878,0.007889&iwloc=A&hl=en)

Satellite image (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=701+Smithfield+St,+pittsburgh&ll=40.443779,-79.996819&spn=0.002878,0.007889&t=k&hl=en)

[rlfulgham]

Whitmore not as bad as the others, but know this:

First of all, IMO Whitmore Publishing is not for professional writers. But it might be right for certain writers - those who want absolutely no charges but still expect ARCS, limited promotion, and well made/refundable books.


I have a Civil War book out by Whitmore. They produced a beautiful, durable book for me April of 2005; charged not a dime; mailed out 30 ARCs with promo materials; sent promo materials to 250 bookstores in Virginia and Maryland (think Gettysburg, Antietum, Richmond); sent out two galleys in advance of publication, which got me an endorsement from a best selling author and the a Civil War org with 33,000 members; got me one radio interview, one newspaper and three national CW magazine reviews (two have not yet appeared). Whitmore books are fully refundable and are offered to brick & mortar and online book sellers at 40% off. I vouch for these things.
Their production manager answers all my emails and telephone calls. He does what he says Whitmore will do.
Also, their contract is only five years.

However: It has been nine months and I am not yet listed on Amazon or any other online stores other than theirs at http://www.whitmorebooks.com/hoofcohaciwa.html . They are just now getting around to saturating the Civil War area book stores with promo materials. They put a very high price on the book -- $29 for a 356pg trade paperback, but remember it is endorsed by a very famous writer and aimed at a very specific audience (Civil War history buffs). I'm getting positive responses (i.e. fan email) from readers across the country.

Yes, they are owned by Dorrance and yes -- if you are rejected by Whitmore -- you'll likely be contacted by Dorrance or its subsidary Rosedog.
But Whitmore is extrememly selective and carries some some very serious books by some very serious authors. Many of these were printed by the original "Whitmore" of the 50s, 60s, 70, and 80s. The current owner is making the earlier books available again, brand new, in storage since the original went bankrupt.
They have both a POD and an offset press. Your Whitmore book may come out POD, but will be fully refundable and offered to brick & mortar bookstores and online bookstores at 40% off. They use their offset press for guaranteed sales books and for any POD book that sells enough to warrant it. They have a distributer.

You can check up on me if you want to. I published another book with Overmountain Press - which is offset, established and respectable. My book there can be seen at http://www.overmountainpress.com/ne...iangenesis.html (http://www.overmountainpress.com/newpages/books/appalachiangenesis.html) . I also have a PublishAmerica book out and can tell you from experience that Whitmore is not at all like them. PA won't even answer my emails; my book is not refundable; is absurdly priced; had absolutely no promo at all;competes with at least 4000 other PA titles; has a lousy reputation; and won't let me out of the contract unless I open myself to multiple lawsuit by posting on any forum which has ever spoken badly of them.
I've also self-published two books by using Lulu Press, which was free -- I highly recommend Lulu; I've acutally made money with them without spending a cent. You can see my free site there at http://www.lulu.com/LION .

Whitmore did not ask me to do this. I just don't like to see this press put in the same category as PublishAmerica and Tate. Whitmore is better, but still not mainstream. Try to find a major publisher first. Then try to find an established and respected small press. If that fails, then try Whitmore before PA, Tate, POD which charges, or vanity. IMO.

[William]

Richard,

Thank you for posting this. I am not personally familiar with Whitmore, but it sounds like they are honestly trying to do right by their people.

The advice to try to go thru a big/mainline publisher makes sense... I think it is almost without saying. However, if that does not work out, then finding a good company that does not charge their people like a vanity press, and puts their own money and efforts into selling the book says a lot about them.

William Andersen
Salem, Oregon

[cptbbear]

I recently got an unsolicited email from
Dorrance Publishing Company
Ray Nikolaison
701 Smithfield St.
3rd Floor
Pittsburgh, PA 15222
I don't know these guys but according to them they advertise on children's literary agency web site. I would appreciate any info on these guys. He's requesting a copy of my book, but my instinsts tell me it's not a good idea. Any feedback would be helpful.

thanksCpt B Bear

[Aconite]

Cpt B Bear, run, don't walk. Your instincts are good. Check out Dorrance on Preditors and Editors (http://www.anotherealm.com/prededitors/) and Writer Beware (http://www.sfwa.org/Beware/).

[Tilly]

And here's a thread on the Children's Literary Agency:
http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8312

[kristin724]

I posted a short story on Rosedog.com jimminy I bet 10 years ago-before it became some sort of pay to look site. It's still there and I don't get charged, but it is a horrible story! I would look into taking it down, but I don't want to get all the spam from Dorrance and whoever.

Kristin

[Necropolis]

I've read all the "dirt" on Publish America and I was wondering if there is equal "dirt" on Whitmore Publishing. I'd truly appreciate any information.

Cheers!:D

[DaveKuzminski]

There's an index topic just above. Open it and scroll down. Should be in alphabetical order by category. They should be listed.

[Cathy C]

Anytime you have a question about any publishers, you should first try our Index of Agents, Publishers and Others. It's a sticky on the main Bewares forum and offers links to discussions about many, MANY other companies. But in answer to your question, here you go:

Whitmore Publishing (see Dorrance Publishing)

Dorrance Publishing (par. of Whitmore Publishing, Red Lead Press, Rosedog.com)
<obsolete links snipped>

[victoriastrauss]

I merged Necropolis's question with the longer Dorrance/Whitmore/RoseDog thread.

- Victoria

[James D. Macdonald]

I'd truly appreciate any information.

Whitmore claims titles that they didn't publish. That's dishonest.

Whitmore has the same address as Dorrance, but attempts to conceal it. That's misleading.

Whitmore appears to have the same business model as PublishAmerica. The difference is that their advance is ten times bigger than PA's. That's pathetic.

Listen: If you've written a book that a lot of people want to read, you can get it legitimately published. If you haven't, no half-baked vanity publishing scheme on earth will help you.

[Necropolis]

Thanks! :D

[A.REX]

I was searching online for legit writing contests of full length fiction (lots of Short story stuff out there but not over 3000 words), and came across this Whitmore publishing website that stated they were looking for new authors.

Yeah, I don't get my hopes up that easily. Is this another P.O.D. like Pub America? Scamstuff or? -thing is, I recognized some of the titles in their featured works and these books have copywright dates in the 1970's. Maybe they were a one-time legit business that went out of business? or still are legit but small? I don't know.

[James D. Macdonald]

Everyone's heard of Whitmore. It's a POD author mill run by old-time vanity press Dorrance. The difference between Whitmore and PublishAmerica is that Whitmore's advance is ten times higher.

The Whitmore that published those books you've heard of went out of business in the early 1990s. The current incarnation doesn't have any apparent connection with the previous company by the same name.

[Aconite]

A.REX, you can always check out agents and publishers on the Bewares and Background Check board here on AW. Start with the Index (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=792).

[A.REX]

those evil vanity scum. I wish they'd just come out and say they were POD. Subhumans.

[rlfulgham]

I've got a book out on Whitmore. Though it's free and they do produce a well made, durable book -- you're basically getting a free vanity press book. They sent out 30 ARCs for me, which got me some important reviews a great endorsement. Their books are discounted 40% for booksellers and their books are fully refundable. The high price on the book, however, means you are unlikely to see your book in brick & mortar bookstore. Mine isn't even online, except where I sell them myself on Amazon. I do sell lots of books at events I attend which are related to the subject of the book. I get 30% off and have to sell them at the lowered price. So I make nothing. My only hope is to wait out the contract (2009) and try to place it with a legit publisher. So, go with Whitmore if you want a free, well-made book with advance ARCs, copies to reviewers, good contact response with the publisher. But remember that you only get 15% of net and have to sell them yourself. I happen to be doing okay with my Whitmore book but that's because it's a niche book and I'm good at public speaking. I'd avoid them, if I were you.

[Can't Catch A Break]

Has anyone done any form of business with them? They're a POD company in Pittsburgh.

They contacted me last year with the news that my novel had been accepted by them. Of course, I was estatic. Naturally, I assumed that they'd read my words and ate it all up. I can be naive at times in my desperation.

In any event, I paid the fee and they printed my novel. There were innumerable mistakes but they don't have an in house editor. The font is small and the price was incredulous, but I got caught in the euphoria of actually being a published author. By Any Means Neccessary, my baby, was finally available for purchase.

At least that's what I assumed. I have gotten no promotion, been running around in circles in an attempt to be taken seriously by those who sneer at self publishing. Worse yet, I received my first stipend from Red lead and it was beyond insulting. They claim I only sold three books but that is a blatant lie! I may be no Dan brown, but I sold more. I got at least a dozen of my friends to buy my book even at it's outrageous $26.00 asking price. I got consumed with rage and demanded that my contract be terminated. (I retain the copyright and can cancel my obligation at any time)

Now I am frantically sending the copies of my book I purchased to be publishing houses. It all just seems like I can't catch a break. It's one glorious high to a sinking low.

I write abot human emotion. I don't feel the need to search my imagination and talk about goblins, kids named Harry or blasphemous concepts in order to have my work appreciated.

[Can't Catch A Break]

I'm sorry. I didn't know a post about this company already existed.

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20365

[Can't Catch A Break]

I was approached by them and believed their intent. They published my book, for which I am thankful, but I have spent the past six months living on a dream.

[bubblegirl]

I know the no-fees start is tempting to many, but I think self-publishers who do charge can be better. Fultus, Holy Fire, Poseidon, or X-Libris for example. The "marketing" support is the same, but you can cut contract any time. A friend of mine is with PA and they take book rights for 7 years. The others are non-exclusive so you can still look at traditional publishing options. I was scared off after a rejection by an agent five years ago, thinking I wasn't good enough to pitch to large firms. Now I've learnt about the industry in self-publishing and that I am good enough to submit, I'm trying to go traditional. One major retailer in Australia carry my book in their catalog, so I can't be too bad!

One of these days an agent will see my work and be passionate about my message as much as I am. Publishers are already looking at the work and agents have shown promising feedback.

As for Red Lead Press, I would suggest potential customers wanting to self-publish check the contracts. If they are non-exclusive, and an author wants to risk the cash, maybe it will be worthwhile.

[surfwordz]

I recieved the same exact e-mail. Hmmm, what do you think the odds are? :)

[Mark Lazer]

A friend of mine found this publisher, Dorrance Publishing, because she knows I write every now and then. I went to their website to check it out, but I don't really get it. The way I see it, the author has to pay them so they will publish it. This can't be really a good thing, can it?

[huw]

I can't tell whether they're POD or not (so this may not be the best place to discuss them) but from their website they are indeed a subsidy publisher.

There's nothing wrong with that as long as the customer understands what he/she is getting.

[James D. Macdonald]

They're an old-time vanity press.

No, that isn't a good thing.

If you're going to self-publish, genuinely self-publish. If not, go the regular commercial route. Forget the vanities.

[jamiehall]

If you want to know why vanity publishing really is a lot different than doing all aspects of self-publishing yourself, you may want to see the following links:

http://www.writing-world.com/publish/subsidy.shtml
http://www.sfwa.org/beware/selfpublishing.html

[Mark Lazer]

Thanks all for your replies.

[Keith Alan Smith]

I just submitted a manuscript to Whitmore Publishing. Am I bad? Could someone let me in on what's up with them?

Keith

[Roger J Carlson]

Hi Keith,

I moved your post from Tech Help to here in Bewares and Background Check where it belongs. You might want to read the whole thread.

Thanks

[drybonesreborn]

It's not best.

The BBB has listed several compliants, now settled. Try at your own risk.

[Moon Daughter]

I emailed Dorrance publication to see how they worked and the man who helped me with my questions said that they are a POD, but they have other groups that aren't POD. But they do charge you and I've heard through others that they charge in the thousands; yet again, I've also heard of someone not paying a dime through them. Anyone know why a certain person wouldn't have to pay?

Amanda

[Sheryl Nantus]

Anyone know why a certain person wouldn't have to pay?

Amanda

by finding a legitimate publisher?

it doesn't matter what they say, as soon as they want you to open your wallet you should cut and run in the opposite direction as fast as possible.

the money flows TO the author, not FROM the author.

;)

[Moon Daughter]

Sheryl, I agree. In my last post I wasn't suggesting that an author should have to pay to get their work published. I was merely asking why a subsidy press who states the authors must pay a fee would let another not spend a dime.

Amanda

[stormie]

With Dorrance publishing you can end up paying well over a thousand dollars just to see your book in print. Never, ever, spend a dime.

[Sheryl Nantus]

Sheryl, I agree. In my last post I wasn't suggesting that an author should have to pay to get their work published. I was merely asking why a subsidy press who states the authors must pay a fee would let another not spend a dime.

Amanda

I would suspect that there really *is* no such person - it's the same sort of tripe that PublishAmerica holds out for their victims; that someone out there is making it big thanks to them.

if they won't name names, doubt that there's anyone real. Or if they are real, probably related and/or paid off in other ways for the PR aspect.

[CaoPaux]

Re: Whitmore Publishing Company

FYI - This publisher has received "two thumbs down" from Writer Beware:

http://accrispin.blogspot.com/2007/02/happy-valentines-day-from-writer-beware.html

[Elwyn]

"I-Proclaim is an imprint of Dorrance Publishing Company -- The Nation's Leading Author Services Company Since 1920. Our family of imprints provides authors with the level of personalized service they require to become a published author."

I received a "spam" email that says I can get my book published for free. I would think that there's gotta be a catch somewhere.

Elwyn

[JerseyGirl1962]

"I-Proclaim is an imprint of Dorrance Publishing Company -- The Nation's Leading Author Services Company Since 1920. Our family of imprints provides authors with the level of personalized service they require to become a published author."

I received a "spam" email that says I can get my book published for free. I would think that there's gotta be a catch somewhere.


Elwyn,

That it's an imprint of Dorrance Publishing is all you need to know. From one of the threads here on AW (a post by Victoria):

"...Dorrance Publishing Company, one of the most expensive print vanity publishers around (Dorrance also owns Whitmore Publishing, which operates according to the PublishAmerica model--no upfront fee, relies on authors to buy own books)"

Dorrance also has at least one other imprint.

Check out the other threads here:

<obsolete links snipped>

~Nancy

[LloydBrown]

From this brief description, it sounds exactly like Publish America. They're wagering that you'll buy your own books. If you don't, nobody will.

[James D. Macdonald]

More like a cripple-ware version of Lulu.

Repeat after me, kiddies: "Printing is not publishing."

[Matthew Warner]

I've been receiving junk mail from this press for years, and it's apparent that they're in the practice of harvesting contact information off of Copyright filings.

Case in point: in January, I sent in a Copyright registration for my story "The Akashic Records," which had just been published by Dark Recesses Press in their magazine. Last week, I received a postcard from Dorrance inviting me to submit--and the same day I received TWO solicitation phone calls from them. The first time, my wife answered and they said they had the wrong number. The second time, they got our voicemail.

I would consider not putting my phone number on copyright regs, but that's a federal filing, so I'm not sure what my options are.

[victoriastrauss]

Dorrance definitely solicits from copyright registration lists. I've gotten many reports about this.

- Victoria

[Bo Sullivan]

Can anyone tell me anything about Whitmore Publishing as I have submitted a manuscript to them, although I can find out little from their website.

Any comments would be appreciated.

Thank you.

Barbara

[CaoPaux]

1) Check the Index. We've discussed them plenty.

2) Print out Writer Beware's "Two Thumbs Down" Publisher list (yes, they're on there, too) and tape it to your computer.

3) Consult AW, P&E, and WB before you submit.

[James D. Macdonald]

Whitmore's business plan is identical to PublishAmerica's. The difference is that Whitmore's advance is ten times higher.

==========

The well known Whitmore authors listed on Whitmore's site were published by another company called "Whitmore" that went out of business over a decade ago.

[Aprylwriter]

Delirium,

There are many legitimate publishers out there who do not charge fees, and who do not require you to have a literary agent.

Baen Books, Kensington, Avalon, and TOR are all good publishers who do not require literary agents.

Kensington does not publish scifi (that I'm aware of) but they do publish mysteries, westerns, and paranormal novels. They've already asked for a partial of my manuscript, and I do not have a literary agent.

Good luck!

Apryl

[Bo Sullivan]

Hey guys. It's me again with yet another question about a site that has been recommended to me or that I have somehow miraculously discovered.

I am hoping that at some point in time I am able to reciprocate the great help and information that I have been given thus far.

Someone tell me about RoseDog.com. It is only $10/yr to subcribe (no big deal). But, will it be another kiss of death or just a pleasant killing of time?

thanks again.

Hello, I subscribed to Rosedog before I was published and although I doubt that writers actually get discovered there, I found it to be an outlet to display my work and I did get some complimentary messages about my work from other readers/writers. I will also say that it was through the advertising on Rosedog that I ever heard of Publish America.

I hope this helps you decide whether to subscribe to Rosedog.

Barbara

[JimmyD1318]

Look what I got in the mail today! How it got past my SPAM blocker I will never know!

http://img.jangomail.com/Clients/34651/Images/IP%20Lady.jpg


http://img.jangomail.com/Clients/34651/Images/IP%20Logo.jpg (http://x.jngo1.net/y.z?l=http%3A%2F%2Fi-proclaim.com&e=926377223)

http://img.jangomail.com/Clients/34651/Images/IP%20Tag.jpg

Get Published in Minutes.

No Fees. No Minimum Order.
How it Works


Sign-up for a FREE I-Proclaim Account
Send us a copy of your book text
Choose your cover art
Add information to your book's cover
Check your book pages and cover
Click submit- you're a published author!Your book will be available for purchase as a traditional book and an e-book at the I-Proclaim.com bookstore (http://x.jngo1.net/y.z?l=http%3A%2F%2Fi-proclaimbookstore.com%2F&e=926377223).
LEARN MORE TODAY! (http://x.jngo1.net/y.z?l=http%3A%2F%2Fi-proclaim.com%3Fprogram%3Demail&e=926377223&p=2)
http://img.jangomail.com/Clients/34651/Images/IP%20sign-up.jpg (http://x.jngo1.net/y.z?l=http%3A%2F%2Fi-proclaim.com%3Fprogram%3Demail&e=926377223&p=3)




Oh...brother...!:rant: It's a part of Dorrance! Now I heard it all!

[Siddow]

I love that.
"Click submit and you're a published author!"

I never knew it could be so easy!

[jamiehall]

Oh...brother...!:rant: It's a part of Dorrance! now I heard it all!

Is Dorrance trying to copy the Publish America business model?

[Dancre]

Wait!! So you're telling me I didn't need to take all those classes, study all those books, endure harsh critiques??? All I needed to do is point and click??? Arg!!! Why wasn't this in Uncle Jim's thread?? Point and click, poof, you're an author!!! What were you thinking Uncle Jim? ;)

kim

[herdon]

Wait!! So you're telling me I didn't need to take all those classes, study all those books, endure harsh critiques??? All I needed to do is point and click??? Arg!!! Why wasn't this in Uncle Jim's thread?? Point and click, poof, you're an author!!! What were you thinking Uncle Jim? ;)

kim

Uncle Jim is part of an evil conspiracy focused on world domination. Between him, Victoria, and Hapisoft they make up the true triangle of evil.

[eqb]

Uncle Jim is part of an evil conspiracy focused on world domination. Between him, Victoria, and Hapisofi they make up the true triangle of evil.

And the rest of us are henchminions. :)

[joyce]

I'm with Dancre, why on earth have I been torturing myself when all I needed to do was point and click. If it was only that easy.:cry:

[Popeyesays]

Well, I declare!

[Queen of Swords]

Next up :

Who would believe becoming a neurosurgeon is this easy?

[victoriastrauss]

I've changed the name of this thread to make it easier to find in the Index.

- Victoria

[JimmyD1318]

I've changed the name of this thread to make it easier to find in the Index.

- Victoria


Thank you, Victoria.


Is Dorrance trying to copy the Publish America business model?

Hey, if it works for one company, why not another?

[victoriastrauss]

They're copying Lulu.com, not PA.

- Victoria

[JimmyD1318]

They're copying Lulu.com, not PA.

- Victoria

Whoops...sorry.

[James D. Macdonald]

They're copying Lulu, only with a couple fewer features.

[Dancre]

Uncle Jim is part of an evil conspiracy focused on world domination. Between him, Victoria, and Hapisoft they make up the true triangle of evil.

We'll make 'em walk the plank, arrrr!!!

kim

[James D. Macdonald]

Red Lead Press (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20365)

I-Proclaim (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57312)

[sandyn]

Thanks again to AbsoluteWrite.com! I received an e-mail from Dorrance and, much as I want to become a published author, I clicked on the link to 'unsubscribe' my e-mail addy from their database.

No thanks to vanity presses!

[Kitrianna]

And to think I was almost foolish enough to fall for the Whitmore/Dorrance garbage. I've been scratching my head over how Dorrance got my email in the first place and I thought that I was being excessively careful with Whitmore (I've looked into the whole self publishing garbage), but they almost had me. Good thing I'm poor! Thank you to everyone who has posted in this thread over the years, you've saved me a ton of heartache!!!!

[boobey1]

Recently I spoke with a representative of Dorrance Publishing who requested my manuscript of "Sweden". Not realizing this is a subsidy agency, I agreed to the representative sending me a contract to look over.

I became saddened just by reading the contract because in order to have my book published through the company I will have to pay more than 14 thousand dollars.

My question is...what does a new writer have to do to get his or her work in the hands of a publishing company that does not want him or her to pay upfront and out of pocket.

I was so excited but now it is becoming discouraging.

[mscelina]

Submit to legitimate publishers and not vanity publishers. NO WRITER SHOULD EVER PAY TO BE PUBLISHED. Period.

Read the Bewares and Backgrounds forum here, Check out Preditors & Editors (http://anotherealm.com/prededitors/pubagent.htm) and Writer Beware (http://www.sfwa.org/Beware/)--research any agent or publisher you submit to. This is as much a part of your 'job' as a writer as spelling correctly is. Seriously. Arm yourself with knowledge, and it will be much, much better for you.

[Maryn]

Anita, give yourself a pat on the back for realizing this isn't the way it's supposed to work, then spend some time absorbing the professional publishing advice given here by people who walk the walk. I agree, you don't pay a thing for "real" publishing, although it can cost you a little postage, unless you have an identifiable niche market that's a sure thing. (I have a relative who does, and sells to exactly who he thought he would in about the quantity he anticipated, too. But how many people have such a niche? Damned few.)

Maryn, pleased to meet you

[ray-ray]

has any one heard of red lead press

[brianm]

Welcome to the cooler, ray-ray.

One publishing company per thread, otherwise it gets a wee bit confusing.

There's a search button on the main page of the Bewares forum, you can enter the name there and see if there is an existing thread. If not, start a new thread and be sure to include a link.

ETA: Red Lead Press is a pay-to-play imprint of Dorrance. The thread about them is located here (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8500&highlight=Dorrance)

[sagean27]

Hello All,

My father published his book "Portugal's Golden Years: The Life and Times of Prince Henry the Navigator". Obviously seems it was not the best thing to start your writing adventure. His contract has ended with them. We are now looking into other avenues and I am not sure how to go about it. Since the book is published can I contact more reputible Literary Agents with his published book or send portions of his manuscript for them to re-publish? I am not sure how to move forward and help me dad. I would appreciate any feedback.

-Catarina

[James D. Macdonald]

Write a different book. Sell it to a legitimate publisher. Use the success of that book to try to sell this as a reprint.

A vanity-published book, with sales that are probably in the "proven failure" range, isn't going to resell to a legitimate publisher unless the first page glows in the dark and cures baldness.

[AllyWoof]

Has anyone heard of this company, or anything close to it. They contacted me last week. Only I can't find where I got the name from, and it has been difficult getting any information about them.

[victoriastrauss]

There are a bunch of companies with this name or some version of it. Do you have a website? What's its location?

- Victoria

[AllyWoof]

I can't find it. I haven too many things written. What it boils down to is I am way too disorganized.

[Arisa81]

I tried looking it up too (as you know) and the phone number to which you were supposed to call them back is connected to a place called InventHelp. It's like an invention place. But I mean, if they called you and said they are interested in publishing your book...

Did you call them back? Or have they called you back? Did they send you a letter back saying they want to publish your book?

[CaoPaux]

I can't find it. I haven too many things written. What it boils down to is I am way too disorganized.Can you at least tell us what they are/what they offered? Publisher, publicist, marketer, or what?

[AllyWoof]

I got it sorted out. The place is called Dorrance Publishing Company. I got my story email off about 15 minutes ago. Now onto my next story!

[victoriastrauss]

Ally, I've merged your question with the existing thread on Dorrance. Please read it from the beginning--Dorrance is a very expensive vanity publisher.

- Victoria

[AllyWoof]

opps. Now would be the time to be mad at myself, right?

[casujoiah]

I want to first say thanks for everyone who has posted on these threads over the years it has opened my eyes to the world of trying to get published. I too was almost scammed by dorrance and now red lead are trying too glad i checked up on it it seemed too good to be true.

Is there anyone out there who can give me advice on how to get my first manuscript published without it costing me an arm or a leg??

I am a bit stuck as to where to go from here.

*the pure and simple truth is never pure and rarely simple*

[eqb]

Is there anyone out there who can give me advice on how to get my first manuscript published without it costing me an arm or a leg??

It depends on what your goals are.

If you just want copies of your book for yourself, family, and friends, you can self-publish through Lulu.com (http://www.lulu.com). That costs you nothing, but you have to design and format the book yourself. If you decide you want to reach a larger audience, you would need to pay some fees for copyright registration, the ISBN, and placement on Amazon.com. Check the self-publishing forums on this site for more information on other companies for self-publishers.

If you want to reach more readers, consider submitting your manuscript to commercial publishers. Commercial publishers pay you for the right to publish and sell your book. They take care of editing and designing and distributing and marketing the book. You can find more information about specific publishers, submitting your manuscript, etc. around this site, too.

[Queen of Swords]

Is there anything on Dorrance's website about the $10,000-or-more fee? I'd really like a link to any such webpage, but I've been searching the Dorrance site and haven't found one yet.

[James D. Macdonald]

Is there anyone out there who can give me advice on how to get my first manuscript published without it costing me an arm or a leg??



Do not pay to be published.

Real publishers cost you nothing. They pay you. (And not just a measly dollar, in case you run into PublishAmerica.)

Here's what to do:

Go to a bookstore. Find books on the shelf that are similar to yours. Write down the publishers' names.

Get those publishers' guidelines. Follow the guidelines to the letter.

If the publisher says you need an agent:

Find the names of agents who have sold books like yours. By "sold" I mean they have books on the shelves in bookstores that you've seen with your own eyes. Get their guidelines and follow them to the letter.

While all this is happening, write a new, different, and better book.

[MickRooney]

James,

Perfect, concise, honest (no BS)...and to the letter advise. That's what absolutewrite is all about.

[casujoiah]

Thank you !!! :) I shall get doing all those things and hopefully I will be able to post success stories on here at some point in the future.

Also my friend had an idea about writing stories in a blog format, like a chapter a week, this way even though it is online it is copyrighted to you. Is this a good idea?? Any opinions are gratefully received.

Thanks again for the advice :hooray:

C:)X

[James D. Macdonald]

Also my friend had an idea about writing stories in a blog format, like a chapter a week, this way even though it is online it is copyrighted to you.

You mean, posting a chapter a week on your website?

It's been done. (http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?157782)

But it's not the most highly-recommended way to go about things. While the work is copyrighted to you, it may still be considered to have been published, leaving you with only reprint markets.

[Sezzannazaza]

Hi all!

Just wondering if anyone has heard of a company called "Dorance Publishing Co." They have contacted me through noticing the registration of my manuscript with the Library of Congress.

I'm just very cautious now after my dealings with WL agency & Eloquent Books and all the great advice I received on here about them! Guess once your fingers have been burnt, you suspect everyone's the same!

If this company have a good reputation, maybe it might be worth persuing!

[M.R.J. Le Blanc]

Hi all!

Just wondering if anyone has heard of a company called "Dorance Publishing Co." They have contacted me through noticing the registration of my manuscript with the Library of Congress.

I'm just very cautious now after my dealings with WL agency & Eloquent Books and all the great advice I received on here about them! Guess once your fingers have been burnt, you suspect everyone's the same!

If this company have a good reputation, maybe it might be worth persuing!

No good publisher, big or small, EVER has to solicit manuscripts.

Also, I'm curious why you registered you ms?

[CaoPaux]

Hi all!

Just wondering if anyone has heard of a company called "Dorance Publishing Co." They have contacted me through noticing the registration of my manuscript with the Library of Congress.

I'm just very cautious now after my dealings with WL agency & Eloquent Books and all the great advice I received on here about them! Guess once your fingers have been burnt, you suspect everyone's the same!

If this company have a good reputation, maybe it might be worth persuing!As you'll learning reading through this thread, Dorrance is only one of many vanity operations which search the LoC for writers who register unpublished mss (which is both unnecessary and problematic). I'm afraid you're now on spammer/scammer lists as having more money than experience.

[Sezzannazaza]

No good publisher, big or small, EVER has to solicit manuscripts.

Also, I'm curious why you registered you ms?
In the midst of all my dealings with WL agency & co! It was mentioned, guess I got nervous about the way they were doing things, which then lead me to this site.

For all the time I spent learning about the industry through a currupt company, I learnt more about how things work here in a day than I did with them in a year! Guess Dorrance is another company in the same league....Not owned by Robert Fletcher too I hope?!!!! Perhaps a close relative eh?

I need to get another agent! Would anyone recommend e-mailing agents, sending manuscripts via post or just calling them? I really don't know the best way to get a good agents attention. Tried e-mailing a few a while back.

Well looks like I'm in for a rocky ride now the manuscripts registered! I'll sit tight & wait for all the "Dorrance & Robert Fletchers" to contact me....Bring it on, I'm waiting!!! ;-)

[M.R.J. Le Blanc]

I need to get another agent! Would anyone recommend e-mailing agents, sending manuscripts via post or just calling them? I really don't know the best way to get a good agents attention. Tried e-mailing a few a while back.

Research agents who work in the genre you write in. Find out their guidelines on queries. Follow them to the letter. If you don't, you're guaranteed to be ignored.

[Sezzannazaza]

Research agents who work in the genre you write in. Find out their guidelines on queries. Follow them to the letter. If you don't, you're guaranteed to be ignored.

Thank you!

Sound advice...And I will get right on to it!

[ABKN]

http://www.dorrancepublishing.com/default.htm

Anyone know anything about them?

[waylander]

http://www.dorrancepublishing.com/default.htm

Anyone know anything about them?

Lots!
Don't go there.
Pay to play outfit

[ABKN]

Lots!
Don't go there.
Pay to play outfit

Thanks. I guess I should have searched this forum more, before I posted. :)

[Monica Partridge]

Good morning, I was wondering if anyone has heard or knows anything about Dorrance Publishing. I am ready to have my poetry, spiritual inspiration book "Heart and Spirit" published and am very near completing my crime novel "Hazardous Minds" but don't want to end up with a vanity press or scammer. The novel synopsis has been submitted to agents in the UK but the poetry book has not been sent to anyone except a few friends who have given me a lot of good feedback. I would be very grateful for any info on Dorrance as they seem eager to have me send my manuscript to them. Thank you in advance and god bless you all. :)

[Gravity]

Of course they're eager. Dorrance is a very old, very expensive vanity house.

That said, a poety chapbook is a very, very hard sell to a commercial house (at least here in the States). It may well be that going with a vanity house may be your only solution, but were I you, I'd vet these carefully. Best of luck!

[Monica Partridge]

Thank you John. I appreciate your response very much. I am very new to all this and don't know much about how publishers work or what vanity houses are; I only know what little I have read and most people seem to avoid vanity presses. I have an awful lot to learn, which is why I prefer going through an agent rather than dealing with the publisher myself. Thank you again for your reply and help. All the best :)

[Parametric]

Monica, Gravity gave you great advice about Dorrance, but just to pick up on another issue:

I am ready to have my poetry, spiritual inspiration book "Heart and Spirit" published and am very near completing my crime novel "Hazardous Minds" but don't want to end up with a vanity press or scammer. The novel synopsis has been submitted to agents in the UK but the poetry book has not been sent to anyone except a few friends who have given me a lot of good feedback.

Querying an incomplete novel is a major no-no. Even if your query is good, your synopsis is great and your first pages are brilliant, the agent has no reason to think that you will ever even finish the novel - much less produce a polished, well-written manuscript he can sell.

Here are the steps (all free) you need to take to maximise your chances of seeing your novel on bookstore shelves:


Finish writing it.
Edit it.
Send it out to readers, ideally ones who don't know you in real life. Edit it again based on their feedback.
Put the opening pages, query and synopsis through critique groups and workshops (like our own Share Your Work (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=26) forums, password: vista).
Research your agents carefully.
Submit a few queries at a time, fine-tuning based on agent feedback.

Hope this helps. :)

[Monica Partridge]

Monica, Gravity gave you great advice about Dorrance, but just to pick up on another issue:



Querying an incomplete novel is a major no-no. Even if your query is good, your synopsis is great and your first pages are brilliant, the agent has no reason to think that you will ever even finish the novel - much less produce a polished, well-written manuscript he can sell.

Here are the steps (all free) you need to take to maximise your chances of seeing your novel on bookstore shelves:


Finish writing it.
Edit it.
Send it out to readers, ideally ones who don't know you in real life. Edit it again based on their feedback.
Put the opening pages, query and synopsis through critique groups and workshops (like our own Share Your Work (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=26) forums, password: vista).
Research your agents carefully.
Submit a few queries at a time, fine-tuning based on agent feedback.

Hope this helps. :)

The agents I submitted to were aware that the novel is almost finished and requested that I submit my synopsis with my bio and covering letter as well as first 3 chapters. It will be completed within the next 2 weeks. I am only querying around 4 or 5 at a time so I can keep track of who I've sent it to. Out of an initial 11 I approached I had 5 who wanted to see it. The others sent me form letters saying thanks but no thanks lol. Thank you for your advice and help.

[Cyia]

The agents I submitted to were aware that the novel is almost finished and requested that I submit my synopsis with my bio and covering letter as well as first 3 chapters. It will be completed within the next 2 weeks. I am only querying around 4 or 5 at a time so I can keep track of who I've sent it to. Out of an initial 11 I approached I had 5 who wanted to see it. The others sent me form letters saying thanks but no thanks lol. Thank you for your advice and help.

If these are American agents and they said that - RUN AWAY. No legit US agent is going to make a partial request off an "nearly" finished novel.

[Gravity]

Agreed. For what it's worth, when my agent started shopping my first Joe Box novel it was finished, and polished as well as I could make it. When the contract was finally cut the publisher bought that novel as well as the next two in the series, both of those unwritten at the time. But as a totally unknown quantity, I wouldn't have gotten that three-book deal had that first one not been finished. It may work differently in the UK, though. Best of luck, Monica!

[waylander]

The agents I submitted to were aware that the novel is almost finished and requested that I submit my synopsis with my bio and covering letter as well as first 3 chapters. It will be completed within the next 2 weeks. I am only querying around 4 or 5 at a time so I can keep track of who I've sent it to. Out of an initial 11 I approached I had 5 who wanted to see it. The others sent me form letters saying thanks but no thanks lol. Thank you for your advice and help.

You are missing out a crucial stage here: sending out to readers, getting critiques and rewriting it.
I guarantee you that you will end up with a better novel if you do not miss out this stage

[JustinlDew]

The first is Durrance Publishing House. Has anyone heard of them?
The second is Writers House, a literary agency.

Now what can you tell me about these two companies?

[DeadlyAccurate]

There's an index stickied at the top of this forum. Inside you'll find a link to a thread for Dorrance (if that's the one you mean) and one for Writers House. If Durrance is different from Dorrance, start a new thread just for that one, with the subject line: Durrance Publishing House.

[CaoPaux]

I'll presume you mean Dorrance, and will merge this post with the existing thread.

In the future, please check the Index (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=792) before posting new threads, and keep it to one subject per thread. Thank you.

ETA: Writers House is here: http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9981

[eqb]

For Writer's Literary, there's a whole sub-forum (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=202) on that scam.

In case he means Writers House, the respected agency, here's their thead (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9981).

[CaoPaux]

Dang, ya caught me. :D. Yeah, since lots of folks ask about WL when asking about a vanity press, too, I misread it.

[wanda45451964]

So everyone is basically saying that, Dorrance is known to look for new writers.

[Gravity]

No, they're looking for new customers...which just happen to be writers willing to open their checkbooks.

[James D. Macdonald]

So everyone is basically saying that, Dorrance is known to look for new writers.


Dorrance is known to look for new writers. New, inexperienced writers with too much money in their bank accounts and not enough sense to come in out of the rain.

[wanda45451964]

Why can't the law put all these people out of business, since alot of people file charges against them.

[Old Hack]

Wanda, people don't file charges against them: it's generally far too expensive to do it; and even if someone were to go ahead with a lawsuit they'd be unlikely to win as vanity publishers only promise to do things they they can actually do: they use weasel-wording to imply that something will happen, but as they don't state that it actually will, they can't be prosecuted for it.

For example, PublishAmerica promises that the books it publishes will be "available through bookstores". That's true: because the books all have ISBNs they can all be ordered from any bookstore. However, lots of authors assume that means that their books will be on the shelves at those bookstores so that readers can have a good look at them, which isn't the case: few bookstores will keep any of PA's books in stock, regardless of how good or bad they are, because they're far too expensive and the terms on which PA supplies them are just not good enough.

If writers don't realise that they're not meant to pay to have their books published, and willingly sign up with a vanity publisher, then they have no basis on which to sue. That's why it's important for writers to do a huge amount of good, solid research before they even begin to think about publication.

[Sobel318]

I'm new around here, and I needed to make sure that I wasn't being scammed. I've done a little bit of researcher, but I need a second opinion. Has anyone ever heard of Black Rose Writing (with Reagan Rothe) or Dorrance Publishing?
I know Dorrance is a subsidiary but I'm a first time author and I need to get my foot in the door. Now these two seem ligit, but I'd definitely like someone to confirm this for me. Dorrance's website is a little iffy (I googled them and looked at the first two sites that came up). I got them both out of the Literary Marketplace, but I've seen others with scams on there, so I just thought I'd ask.

[escritora]

Click on the links below for AW threads.

Black Rose (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97741)

Dorrance (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8500)

[M.R.J. Le Blanc]

Hi Sobel, and welcome to AW.

Both these publishers already have threads here in the Bewares and Background Check. To find one you're interested in looking up, either plug their name into the Search box at the top menu, or in the Google search bar at the bottom of the forums and make sure you select the www.absolutewrite.com radio button instead of the Web button. If the publisher or agent you're looking for has a thread here, a search will help you find it. I can't recall about Dorrance Publishing, but Black Rose Writing is definitely one to avoid if I recall correctly.

Literary Marketplace is not a very reliable source. I think all it takes to be listed there is to fill out a sheet. The places you want to check for legit folks are here, Preditors and Editors, AgentQuery and Publisher's Marketplace. Research thoroughly before you start sending your work anywhere, because being unpublished is far better than being published badly. Do lots of research, and don't rush it. Always remember, if they can't get your book on a shelf (or in the case of an epublisher, in front of a wide readership) then they can't get your foot in the door.

[Sobel318]

Thank you guys so much for the help! MRJ Le Blanc, that reminds me of the actor Matt LeBlanc (who played Joey from Friends). Anyways.
Is there a database or a thread on here somewhere that recommends publishers instead of warning about poor ones? I've been through almost the whole Marketplace book, and still I didn't find anything that was too helpful (most of the publishers either need an agent, or want you to be all ready published, or have restrictions on what they publish).
Any help for a newbie?

[Cyia]

Go to AgentQuery and QueryTracker and find agents that rep your genre, then check Preditors and Editors and look for agents with $ by their name to indicate actual sales. You can also check here for more information about them from others who have submitted to them.

Always check on Google by putting [agent's name] and SCAM in the search box to see if anything pops that way.

[Medievalist]

A good agent has actual sales of books by authors you can find in your local bookstores and libraries--and genuine agents love to talk about their authors' books.

[Unimportant]

Is there a database or a thread on here somewhere that recommends publishers instead of warning about poor ones?
As James Macdonald often says: the bookstore is your best database.

Go to your local bookstore. Go to the section with the type/genre of book you write. Make a list of the names of the publishers whose books are there on the shelf. That's your recommended list.

If you have to pay your publisher for anything, ever, you're putting your foot in the wrong door.

[James D. Macdonald]

I know Dorrance is a subsidiary but I'm a first time author and I need to get my foot in the door.Not subsidiary, but subsidy.

And of all the perfidious twaddle pushed by the vanity-publishing outfits, the idea that authors need to "get their foot in the door" and can do so by paying to be published is one of the more perfidious ones.

[GothicKnight]

I just got an unsolicited email from David Braun at Dorrance. How does he even know I have a manuscript? I never contacted that company. P&E doesn't have a good opinion of them. I will not pay to have my book published. I would rather not be published at all.

[CaoPaux]

Did you register copyright on your manuscript? That'll paint you as a target for the likes of Dorrance and worse.

[GothicKnight]

Not as such, no. I did the old "mail it to myself" thing, but haven't registered formal copyright. I have no idea how they even knew I had a manuscript. I didn't send anything to any of the other Dorrance companies. I told David Braun not to email me anymore, and, so far, he hasn't. Hopefully that'll be the end of it.

[brainstorm77]

If they do, mark them as junk in your email filter.

[gcarlberg]

Publishers Weekly
Library Journal
Booklist
Kirkus



I would also include on that list a new online book review site called the New York Journal of Books as they are fast becoming a very creditable publication that publishes many reviews each week.

[CaoPaux]

Uh huh. FYI, spamming message boards is a great way to lose credibility.

[Pistol Whipped Bee]

Hi - What can any of you tell me about Dorrance Publishing? I've been contacted by someone in their office who expessed interest in reading my entire manuscript.

Best,

Jenn

[Soccer Mom]

Go ahead and read this thread, Jenn. I would think that could answer your question.

[Maddie]

I received one of those letters from Dorrance yesterday (and continue to about once a year). Apparently they peruse the Library of Congress for author copyrights (I have seven manuscripts lodged there, plus one pending). Having used AuthorHouse many years ago, and vowing to never self-publish again AND having read through this thread, I can easily say to Dorrance...no thanks!

[singsebastian]

Does anyone know anything about these guys?
They don't even have the rules for submitting to them. They just want you to tell them all about your book and then they'll e-mail you submissions but they promise the they are a traditional publisher.

Any opinions on these guys?
I didn't find them in my search. Maybe there is a really, really old thread?

[IceCreamEmpress]

Does anyone know anything about these guys?
They don't even have the rules for submitting to them. They just want you to tell them all about your book and then they'll e-mail you submissions but they promise the they are a traditional publisher.

My opinion is that you should stick with the publishers you know can sell books, not take chances on publishers about whom you know nothing. In other words, look for green flags to rule publishers in, not red flags to rule publishers out.

In this case, the current business known as "Whitmore Publishing Company" is owned by vanity publisher Dorrance. It is not related to the defunct small press that published in the 1970s.

[Sagitt1965]

I'm half scared to get into this again. I have no clue where to look for a publisher. My book is like a histrical romance. But been told it shouldn't be put there. Yeah, Dorrance publishing is trying to get me too

[aliceshortcake]

Sagitt1965, which companies publish the historical romances on the shelves of your local bookshop?

[AC Crispin]

In my experience, Whitmore is mostly a "bait and switch" to get the names of authors that Dorrance can then solicit. Whitmore does publish a few books, but I think they're mostly for show, and to draw potential customers to Dorrance.

I queried Whitmore myself a couple of years ago, just to see what would happen, and next thing I knew, Dorrance was emailing me and sending me literature.

-Ann C. Crispin

[AnneMarble]

Is Rosedog Press the same as Rosedog.com? If so, a Rosedog author is in big trouble with the law -- for allegedly attempting to hire a hit man.

Nancy Gelber, Crime Writer, Arrested In Botched Murder-For-Hire Plot (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/17/crime-writer-nancy-gelber_n_1154534.html)

I'm annoyed at the tacky headline and the usual lack of research. She published one thriller with a vanity press, and that makes her a "crime writer"? A better headline would be "Vanity Press Author Arrested In Botched Murder-For-Hire Plot." Instead, they call her a crime writer, and that makes some people look funny at other crime writers (both nonfiction and fiction writers).

From the article: "Prior to her split with her husband, Gelber had her sights set on becoming a career writer. Her first novel, Temporary Amnesia, was published in August 2010." Yeah, great research on that publisher. :rolleyes:

This is the book on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Temporary-Amnesia-Nanc%C3%83%C2%A9-J-Mancuso/dp/1434992063

[James D. Macdonald]

Is Rosedog Press the same as Rosedog.com? If so, a Rosedog author is in big trouble with the law -- for allegedly attempting to hire a hit man.


Temporary Amnesia was published by RoseDog Press: http://rosedogbookstore.com/mys.html

That is a vanity press: http://rosedogbookstore.com/info.html

And is a part of Dorrance: http://www.rosedog.com/pod-services.asp?id=89B5FF5D-81F9-11D6-9829-0090277A4ED5

[AnneMarble]

Temporary Amnesia was published by RoseDog Press: http://rosedogbookstore.com/mys.html

That is a vanity press: http://rosedogbookstore.com/info.html

And is a part of Dorrance: http://www.rosedog.com/pod-services.asp?id=89B5FF5D-81F9-11D6-9829-0090277A4ED5
Thanks! That's what I thought, but I wanted to be sure.

[James D. Macdonald]

Much as I love mocking Dorrance, this one really isn't their fault.

[AnneMarble]

Much as I love mocking Dorrance, this one really isn't their fault.
That's true. They can be blamed for the cover, though. And the original cover price of $30. Yikes!

[kymalie]

Hello everyone! Has anyone heard of Dorrance publishing Co., Inc.? It is soliciting writers with ads in USA Today. Thanks for any remarks

[Old Hack]

We do know about Dorrance here, and we have a thread all about them. With apologies to the BR&BC room mods, I'll merge this with the existing thread right now. Whoosh!

[James D. Macdonald]

Vanity press.

We know that any publisher that buys ads to solicit your book, whether in USA Today, the New York Times, or via Google Ads, isn't a publisher you want to have anything to do with.

I expect that Createspace and Lulu, Kindle and Smashwords, will put them out of business.

[kymalie]

Thank you so much for responding and leading me in the right direction.

What do you think of Amazon saying they will accept your publication? But you must upload it to them through Kindle or a computer that is Kindle friendly.

[AllyWoof]

They tried to take advantage of me some years ago. Thankfully, my friends here on AW asked me who was "interested" in my stuff and warned me away from them before I wasted peoples time and money on a bogus company.

[James D. Macdonald]

What do you think of Amazon saying they will accept your publication? But you must upload it to them through Kindle or a computer that is Kindle friendly.

We have a couple of entire sub-forums (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=208) devoted to electronic self-publication (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=47). You'll want to make sure you know what your objectives are, and you need to be aware that while electronic self-publication can be "free" it isn't necessarily "easy."

I don't have a Kindle, and have no idea what a "Kindle friendly" computer might be, but I've had no problem uploading to either Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/gp/search/ref=sr_adv_b/?search-alias=stripbooks&unfiltered=1&field-keywords=&field-author=&field-title=&field-isbn=&field-publisher=Madhouse+Manor&node=&field-p_n_condition-type=&field-feature_browse-bin=&field-subject=&field-language=&field-dateop=&field-datemod=&field-dateyear=&sort=relevanceexprank&Adv-Srch-Books-Submit.x=25&Adv-Srch-Books-Submit.y=12) or Smashwords (https://www.smashwords.com/profile/view/doylemacdonald).