Something that disturbs me...

I'll probably come back to this discussion later, but my immediate thoughts on this are I can't stand Phillip Pullman because of his arrogant, patronising attitude towards believers and that influences my ability to enjoy his books. I've read His Dark Materials and felt condescended to, especially with the 'killing God' part of the novels. I was especially offended at him being a wizened old man being wheeled around by his minions.

JK Rowling, on the other hand, I have a lot of respect for in the way she's handled the parts of her novels that could be seen as anti-Christian. Actually, I'd say Pullman is anti-Christian, whereas Rowling's stories are non-Christian. I can accept this a lot more easily, because JKR carries herself with a lot less scorn and a lot more grace than Pullman.

While I shouldn't allow my dislike of the author to influence my enjoyment of books, I'm too put out by Pullman's offensive attitude to be able to enjoy his novels and also, going by quality of writing alone, enjoy other children's writers far more.

There's a difference between what we should do as Christians and as Christian parents.

As Christians, I don't believe we have any business trying to ban books or pull them off shelves. Christ taught us to spread his word by showing His love, not by stifling the competition.

As Christian parents, we have the responsibility to decide whether a particular book is good for our children's spiritual welfare. This may change from child to child. Some children may be too influenced by occult and others may recognize it as the fantasy it is. But I think that most Christians give their kids too little credit. If you have steeped them in the Word and you live your life as Christ taught, I think that's a far bigger influence than reading fantasy.

What irks by greatly, however, are the number of parents who abrogate their responsibility and just allow some Christian pundit to decide for them. If you're going to decide something isn't right for your children, you should take the trouble to read it and decide for yourself. Most people who don't allow their children to read Harry Potter have never read it.

Agree with both Scarlett and Roger. I've neither read nor seen the Golden Compass-associated series, so I can't comment fairly. I, for one, did enjoy the Harry Potter series. I thought it was very well written, very imaginative. There are those who recoiled from it, though, due to its 'occult' theme and some of them for good reasons of their own. For example, one close Christian friend of mine was intimately involved with trying to help a friend escape an occultic obsession and the thought of reading about witches etc. for entertainment was abhorrent to her. That's fair. An alcoholic/recovering alcoholic/Alanon member could probably find better reading material than a bartender's guide.

Roger's point of parental responsibility is especially important, I believe, as well. My kids are grown and married and I occasionally think back on things I really could have handled better in rearing/guiding them. By the grace of God, though, they've all turned out quite well in spite of my blunders. That doesn't relieve me of the responsibility to blunder as little as I possibly can through diligence and care, though.

So this is just my point on it, being I guess, a Christian in a Christian high school environment. Do I think it's ultimately wrong to ban books? Absolutely. But do I also feel it is wrong to put books in front of kids that could be damaging to their spiritual faith? Entirely.

Since sophomore year, I've done this thing at my school that involves me reading a group of books that is picked out by the state. In past years, they've included things like Harry Potter and the like (Never any Phillip Pullman though - nor have I read his books - simply because I have no desire too). At the end of the year, my librarian asks us which books should go into the library and which should not. There are always books that personally, I have no problems with, but I and my fellow classmates who participate, know that others will have problems with them, since our school ranges in kids with mindsets of the very sheltered to kids who had gone to public school their whole life before coming here. But you see, I think it's important, if you're going to protect people, you need to know what's in the book. You need to have read it. And I think anyone who is going to discount fantasy or any other type of book before they've read it, is denying themselves of some possibly perfectly good literature. And so, that being said, I hope my point comes across clear as to what I meant by that whole spiel.

When it comes to books as readers we need to read the book and decide for ourselves and then decide if our children should read it or not.

As Christian writers we could write more stories with a Christian theme without the magic or whatnot and then get it published in the secular market instead of the Christian one.

I for one loved His Dark Materials. I enjoyed the rather violent attack on Christianity because I enjoyed the way the story was built around the themes the series was interested in. I thought a lot of it was very original and well thought out.

It's the author's opinion *shrug*, I don't have to agree with something to enjoy reading it. Granted, I gave up on Christianity in my teens and I can see how it would offend some but in the end, it's just a book. And Fantasy at that. And set mainly in alternate universes. If he had used a made up religion instead, would anyone have found it patronizing?

No, because if he used a made-up religion, there wouldn't be any followers of that religion in real life, and no-one to take offence. If he insults the followers of a particular faith he has to be prepared for a backlash.

If he's an atheist, fair enough. It's the insults that piss me off, the attitude that believers are stupid.

Well, I may be 'stupid' in his eyes but I still have manners.

CandlestickJay said:

For the record, this may seem to be a rant, but in actuality, it is not.

I'm a fiction writer. Fantasy, actually. I enjoy reading those kinds of books too. Shockingly, I learn from them, they inspire me, yadda yadda yadda. Just to let you know a bit about me before replying, I am a Christian, with full faith in my Lord Jesus. Forward now.

I've come across something.

Why is it that many of the popular fantasy books have a non-Christian base?

To take a current debate by the horns, The Golden Compass.

I personally, loved it. But now, Christians, devout and Sunday, conservative and liberal are rising to arms to fight against the reading of this and the other two books in the series. They are written by a professed atheist and in the later two books have gay angels and supposedly Lyra 'kills' God. I struggle between enjoying them because they were well written, and worrying spiritually BECAUSE I enjoyed them as far as the content goes.

The Potter series is another example. I can name many, many friends of mine who will not allow their children to read the series (well written or not) because it pertains to witch craft.

Is it to be assumed by the Christian public that any book that deals with magic is going to be Satanic?

I'm looking for discussion and the opinions of other Christians on this subject. As writers, readers, but more importantly Christians, where should we stand as far as accepting the writing for what it is and for its merits and faults, versus what should be worried over and banned? Should we extend our banned book list, pull books of 'literary merit' off the shelves and away from our children?

I love to read. I love to write. My current fantasy novel has a very Christian theme floating just beneath the surface. But will it be reviled, refused, simply because it does have a magyc system? Will it be scorned and shelved because it is "fantasy"?

I know I have approached several different topics here. Please, respond if you believe you could shed any light on the subject.

(And lets remember the debates v. discussions rule please!!!)

Love and God bless,
Jay

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Exellent topic!

Romans 14:1-13 immediately comes to mind. I've never read the Golden Compass, but I have read other non-Christian fiction and fantasy authors that spewed out spiritual nonsense from a biblical perspective. For me, Zelazny was particularly laughable. He's a good writer, no doubt, and expert in crafting a cunning story. But as with any writer, their work and world view are ineffably inseperable. Storytelling is to a great extent a product of how we think, and thus our own convictions as to the workings of the universe will come through the page. And Roger Z's view of the world is a combination of New-Age Humanism and Hinduism.

For the weak of faith, such things are untenable- an affront to their worldview that likely cannot survive such an assailment. Thus the above encouragement to be mindful of what the children put into their heads is a particular display of wisdom, for the very young generally have not the equipment to ward off such attacks. But the same can be said of the young believer, not yet weaned from the milk of God's word. Thus they often will strive to fight those essentially harmless things that they fear would undo them.

I do like the example Elijah showed in 1 Kings 18. I mean, think about it. He sat there and watched an utterly pagan ritual being performed by hundreds of heathen priests for hours. But he did not respond with revulsion- he instead simply mocked their folly.

It is a sign of Christian maturity to be able to see the foolishness of the world and infer the righteousness of God through said follishness. The Christian that is grounded strong upon the Rock can discern the shreds of truth that invariably accompany gross error and unbelief. Thus I see no challenge with reading or even enjoying such works of fantasy and fiction; so long as the Christian reader is able to bear the foolishness therein and glean those things that the writer often strove to deny- the beauty of our Lord.

Theognome

Jay:
You make a vadid point. All my children are grown but I would not want my grandchildren
to view such a movie. I'm sure the queer angels are portrayed in a good light. This could cause some kids to one day give that lifestyle a try and unknowingly open the door to demonic activity. They can have all the "oh so happy parades" but the lifestyle is anything but" gay." Having been in a business partnership with a man who leaned that way, I know what misery he went thru. I just May have been guilty of adultery during that period of my life. This MAY have caused me misery, as well. As far as sin and wrong
is concerned, my indulgence with women was just as wrong as his choice.(back to subject) We are confused enough during the teenage years, we don't need a stamp of approval given
toward something God did not intend for society.
I will
lay odds the writer never mentioned the angels now chained in hell, for having sex with the daughters of God. That's all fantasy to him.
When I even gave thought to some writer, who doesn't even believe in Our God, inferring
that someone might kill Him, I was truly sickened. Had he used Mohammad, he would might be headless by now.
This is My Heavenly Father and we believers realize the total absurdity of such a blasphemous fantasy. And no, I have not read his book, and will not. We, as Christians, should be outraged at such a thing. How would you feel if he even implied murdering your earthly father? I would probably maim him and ask forgiveness.
Jim

Come Back Kid said:

Jay:
You make a vadid point. All my children are grown but I would not want my grandchildren
to view such a movie. I'm sure the queer angels are portrayed in a good light. This could cause some kids to one day give that lifestyle a try and unknowingly open the door to demonic activity. They can have all the "oh so happy parades" but the lifestyle is anything but" gay." Having been in a business partnership with a man who leaned that way, I know what misery he went thru. I just May have been guilty of adultery during that period of my life. This MAY have caused me misery, as well. As far as sin and wrong
is concerned, my indulgence with women was just as wrong as his choice.(back to subject) We are confused enough during the teenage years, we don't need a stamp of approval given
toward something God did not intend for society.
I will
lay odds the writer never mentioned the angels now chained in hell, for having sex with the daughters of God. That's all fantasy to him.
When I even gave thought to some writer, who doesn't even believe in Our God, inferring
that someone might kill Him, I was truly sickened. Had he used Mohammad, he would might be headless by now.
This is My Heavenly Father and we believers realize the total absurdity of such a blasphemous fantasy. And no, I have not read his book, and will not. We, as Christians, should be outraged at such a thing. How would you feel if he even implied murdering your earthly father? I would probably maim him and ask forgiveness.
Jim

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Hmm...I think Romans 6:1 would have something to say to that last comment, Jim. ("Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? Certainly not!")

Speaking just from personal experience, sin (blasphemy or any other) does not outrage me so much as it saddens me. Outrage almost implies a sense of shocked surprise--and the human heart has ceased to surprise me, having seen my own a bit more clearly in recent years. We don't seek to maim others in 'righteous indignation,' but rather live love and pray for them, that IF they are sinning, grace may open their eyes as it once did ours.

Jay, since you asked for personal opinions, I'll give mine. I really don't care much about this sort of thing. There's always going to be something for Christians to be outraged about and there's always going to be some for whom outrage is a full-time occupation. There's always going to be a new T.V. show or movie or book or political movement that directly attacks the Christian faith.

But God is on his throne. He has no competition. He has no worries.

God is more interested in my personal maturity than in people lashing out against him. I firmly, firmly believe the reason so many people hate or doubt God is because they simply haven't seen Him clearly in our lives. They see the empty, judgmental, hateful face of "Christianity" and think "that must be what it really is". From my experience, a vast majority of people, especially people who grew up in the church honestly don't have the first clue about what Christianity is or who Jesus really is.

So rather than being outraged at the world's refusal to abide by Christian standards which don't even apply to them, I think we're better served by focusing on ourselves and becoming truly transformed by the love of Christ. I think Roger hit the nail on the head - it doesn't matter one bit if my kids read Harry Potter or not, what does matter is that they see Christ in my life.

Fantastic, important, appropriate and relevant topic!

I want to respond intelligently so I want to pray about my response first. I'll be back.

I'll try to come back to this tonight.

CandlestickJay said:

I've come across something.

Why is it that many of the popular fantasy books have a non-Christian base?

Click to expand...

'Cause I never finished last years attempt.

To take a current debate by the horns, The Golden Compass.

I personally, loved it. But now, Christians, devout and Sunday, conservative and liberal are rising to arms to fight against the reading of this and the other two books in the series. They are written by a professed atheist and in the later two books have gay angels and supposedly Lyra 'kills' God. I struggle between enjoying them because they were well written, and worrying spiritually BECAUSE I enjoyed them as far as the content goes.

Click to expand...

well, personally, I won't be reading that series for a few reasons.
including the reason that I don't want to support that particular author
with my money.

The Potter series is another example. I can name many, many friends of mine who will not allow their children to read the series (well written or not) because it pertains to witch craft.

Click to expand...

Amazingly enough, while there were some things in that book that could
indeed have led someone to successfully operating in a VERY minor way
on the magik paths, that was not the basis for me forbiding them entry
into my home. It had more to do with some of the imagery in the books.

Is it to be assumed by the Christian public that any book that deals with magic is going to be Satanic?

Click to expand...

honestly? in some circles yes. not in many if it is treated correctly though.

I'm looking for discussion and the opinions of other Christians on this subject. As writers, readers, but more importantly Christians, where should we stand as far as accepting the writing for what it is and for its merits and faults, versus what should be worried over and banned? Should we extend our banned book list, pull books of 'literary merit' off the shelves and away from our children?

Click to expand...

This almost changes child to child.
The most important thing is for our children to see us walking with our Lord
and second that they receive a good grounding in the faith and in their
own walk with Jesus.

I love to read. I love to write. My current fantasy novel has a very Christian theme floating just beneath the surface. But will it be reviled, refused, simply because it does have a magyc system? Will it be scorned and shelved because it is "fantasy"?

Click to expand...

I think your best bet is to write it in accord with your conscience and ask
Jesus to help you to do it well.

I know I have approached several different topics here. Please, respond if you believe you could shed any light on the subject.

(And lets remember the debates v. discussions rule please!!!)

Love and God bless,
Jay

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I'll try to be available for further discussion later.

His servant,
mark

A neighbor of mine who is a fundamental Christian told me that she could not, in good conscience, read my series because it contains "monsters and magic." She added that she was proud of her daughter for choosing not to read Harry Potter because it contains "witchcraft." I smiled politely. What else could I do?

Hey Guys:
Posting does not seem to go along with my sense of humor. Personally, I dislike the "lol" but I guess I'll need to use them more. I've had people do some pretty rotten things to me and I counted to ten, said to myself "thou shall not maim." I was hoping to make a strong point with a little humor. I now see adding "then ask forgiveness" was a little too subtle. Don't get me wrong, I've done some "pre-mediated backsliding" mostly for selfish reasons, none for maiming(unless it was in season.)lol lol lol
Off the subject--I told my wife that I had my nose broken in two places. She said, "If I were you, I'd stay out of those two places." Hope no LOL is needed.
Vengence belongs to God which I know quite well. I believe with all my heart, God let me be His messanger for that on one and only occasion. It was more like a spanking from God. You would probably agree with me should you ever hear the details. I truly can say that I had prayed for hours. Had it been from me, Marine blood would have been shed.Our God has a sense of humor,and as perfect sense of fairness. He can also deliver an extremely fast right hook(open-hand slap)It did not glorify me but gave me a wonderful sense of closure and peace. God is so very wise, for a slap to a man is as humilitating as a spanking. I truly thanked Him for it and allowing me to do the "spanking," to the male Marine (one of our finest). He was a nice guy who was in the wrong place at the wrong time. I think my wife would tell him, he should stay out of those places. No LOL's intended or implied. I'll add one more thing ,"Thank God For Unanswered Prayers." and you too, Garth Brooks.
Jim

III said:

Jay, since you asked for personal opinions, I'll give mine. I really don't care much about this sort of thing. There's always going to be something for Christians to be outraged about and there's always going to be some for whom outrage is a full-time occupation. There's always going to be a new T.V. show or movie or book or political movement that directly attacks the Christian faith.

But God is on his throne. He has no competition. He has no worries.

God is more interested in my personal maturity than in people lashing out against him. I firmly, firmly believe the reason so many people hate or doubt God is because they simply haven't seen Him clearly in our lives. They see the empty, judgmental, hateful face of "Christianity" and think "that must be what it really is". From my experience, a vast majority of people, especially people who grew up in the church honestly don't have the first clue about what Christianity is or who Jesus really is.

So rather than being outraged at the world's refusal to abide by Christian standards which don't even apply to them, I think we're better served by focusing on ourselves and becoming truly transformed by the love of Christ. I think Roger hit the nail on the head - it doesn't matter one bit if my kids read Harry Potter or not, what does matter is that they see Christ in my life.

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That is my feeling! if we could show the world the other side, the side that Jesus wanted us to present, then I think maybe more hearts would find their way.

I absolutely love what Roger and III posted.

Everywhere we turn, someone is screaming in outrage, offended at something or other. It’s gotten to be the norm. The key to understanding what’s really going on is to take a step back and look at the whole picture, not just the torn corner.

I’m not surprised in the least at Pullman’s books, which spout his personal beliefs, making God and Christians out to be fools – evil even. In fact, I’m surprised there’s not more of it going on. We live in a sinful world where everyone is given the free will to live the way they choose. We’re also nearing Jesus’ return and know, from the Bible, what we can expect from nonbelievers. There is no shock here.

That said, yes, I agree that Pullman’s books are plainly against God and His children. So, then, the question is, how are we to act in the midst of it – with rage, anger, hatred and violence? Are we to fight fire with fire or an eye for an eye? Are we supposed to fight the devil on his terms? It’s how you see people who call themselves “Christians” doing it. The problem is, that’s not biblical. The world acts that way. It’s a trap. And it’s so easy to fall into it because it seems everyone else does it and gets away with it, so why can’t I?

Being a Christian means being a follower of Jesus. We follow His example and His teachings. Not ours based on our intentions. Doing anything else is acting in the flesh.

Jesus said in Matthew 5:43-48, “You have heard the law that says, ‘Love your neighbor’ and hate your enemy. But I say, love your enemies! Pray for those who persecute you! In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and the unjust alike. If you love only those who love you, what reward is there for that? Even corrupt tax collectors do that much. If you are kind only to your friends, how are you different from anyone else? Even pagans do that. But you are to be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect.”

Too many Christians believe that means that they have to just lie down and let nonbelievers run roughshod all over us. Their understanding isn't complete. But, we are supposed to assume our battle positions, on our knees, and pray for God’s guidance. This is His fight and we should receive our battle instructions from Him. The problem is, too many Christians are acting out of their own feelings instead of biblically.

Books like Pullman’s and Rowling’s should be cause for some concern, but also discernment. Personally, I have no desire to read Pullman’s books because his personal views are clearly displayed in his books. They’re lies.

The Bible clearly condemns witchcraft and sorcery. So, do we have to avoid the very unavoidable Harry Potter altogether? For the spiritually immature or the easily impressionable who have trouble distinguishing between fantasy and reality, or for those whom the line between right and wrong becomes blurred, then yes. Different people have different sensitivity levels and parents are responsible for making this choice for their children.

Ephesians 6:12 says, “For we are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies, but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places.”

This is also part of every family’s responsibility to teach their children. All of the Word, not just part of it and shield them from the rest. The Harry Potter books don’t have to be only entertainment for kids. They can be used teach children how to make wise decisions as they grow in their Christian walk. Talk to your kids about the decisions the characters in the book make and whether or not they were good ones. This involves getting involved with your child’s life and interests.

Personally, I enjoyed the Harry Potter series. Good triumphs over evil and love is shown through selflessness. Friendships in the book are ones of loyalty and devotion, no matter what. There are good qualities in this series. Even realistic aspects such as how the line between good and evil can be blurred, but how good always makes itself clear when you look for it. The magic is your standard stuff, nothing shocking. There is no communication with supernatural forces. (This is the part where discernment and spiritual maturity play a role.) I admit that what I didn’t like about it is that there’s no higher power than man (the Ministry of Magic) to be held accountable to. But as a mature Christian, I can recognize this fault in the book and not be affected by it. Discernment.

Stand up for what you believe in, but do it biblically. “Don’t worry about anything; instead, pray about everything.” (Philippians 4:6)

I'm disappointed...

Come Back Kid said:

All my children are grown but I would not want my grandchildren to view such a movie. I'm sure the queer angels are portrayed in a good light. This could cause some kids to one day give that lifestyle a try and unknowingly open the door to demonic activity. They can have all the "oh so happy parades" but the lifestyle is anything but" gay." Having been in a business partnership with a man who leaned that way, I know what misery he went Thur.

Click to expand...

When I saw this post originally, my first inclination was to issue a reprimand, but I decided to see how the community would respond first. The response has been mostly to ignore it. There might be two reasons for this: 1) you disagree with it, but are too polite to say anything -- much like someone saying something boorish at a party that everyone politely ignores, or 2) you do agree with it, but it's not PC and you're afraid to say anything.

While on the one hand, I'm gratified that this did not devolve into a "Gays are going to Hell" thread, I'm also disappointed at the silence.

However, as a mod, I don't have the luxury of silence. I suppose I could deal with this in PM, but I think it's instructive for the community as a whole, so here goes.

First of all, comments like "queer" angels and "oh so happy parades" plus the off-hand dismissal of them as unhappy are disparaging of gay people. Macallister (the owner of this board) is a lesbian, and quite openly and happily so. This is her house and it is inconceivably rude to insult your hostess.

Secondly, you can't possibly say that the "gay lifestyle" is inherently unhappy based on your experience with one person. The gay lifestyle runs the gamaut from quietly monogamous to flamboyantly permissive -- much like the "hetrosexual lifestyle". And much like the hetrosexual lifestyle, people can be either happy or unhappy in it.

Thirdly, there ARE gay Christians -- even gay Evangelical Christians. You may not consider them Christians, but they certainly do. Implying that this may lead them into "demonic activity" is simply not true. This community is not exclusive to any single definition of Christian. This is a place for all Christians gather. I WILL NOT allow this to become an enclave for a certain type of Christianity.

Fourth, and most importantly, the purpose of this board is to show Christ's love. Because of this, I hold the Christians here to a higher standard of behavior than the visiting non-Christians. You cannot show contempt for someone and show them love at the same time.

1 Cor 13:4-7. Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

What this means is that as a Christian (particularly on this board) sometimes you DON'T say things you believe because...

1 Cor 13:1-3 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Roger, you rock, as always.

I never, ever get into discussions on sexuality. I work in an eclectic office---we do AIDS research. Many of my co-workers are gay. Many are Buddhist and Hindu and atheist and Pagan. Know what? It's not my business. It IS my business to show the love and compassion of Jesus to everyone. How can I say I'm a Christian (I don't, out loud, actually, but people know it) otherwise? Jesus knows their hearts, and I pray for mercy for all, as I pray for mercy for myself.

Sorry if that's rambly, but I needed to not be silent.

OT: In general, when the talking heads start screaming that I shouldn't see a movie or read a book because it's evil and will open the doors to demonic influence etc. etc--I still get a knee-jerk reaction that makes me want to go see or read what all the fuss is about. (I heard a Catholic radio host actually say that reading HP was a sin. Makes me fume.)

By the same token, when the talking heads get RightInMyFace about how I MUST see/read something--and I MUST MUST MUST tell everyone or I'm a bad Christian--I have the same reaction. I had no intention of seeing Bella or Amazing Grace (as much as Ioan Gryffud is a stud muffin) because I wasn 't interested in the plots. I'm still not seeing them even tho I might fry in hell for my Sin of Omission.

Roger J Carlson said:

When I saw this post originally, my first inclination was to issue a reprimand, but I decided to see how the community would respond first. The response has been mostly to ignore it. There might be two reasons for this: 1) you disagree with it, but are too polite to say anything -- much like someone saying something boorish at a party that everyone politely ignores, or 2) you do agree with it, but it's not PC and you're afraid to say anything.

While on the one hand, I'm gratified that this did not devolve into a "Gays are going to Hell" thread, I'm also disappointed at the silence.

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I'm sorry, Roger. To be honest, I completely missed this post. I'm the last person in the world to be politically correct. I'm also not one to let the world's moral relativism stop me from speaking up.

I agree that Christians are to be held to a higher standard. It's like when people say (about their sins), "Thank God for grace!" They think the law, in the Old Testament, was pretty strict. Well, I thank God for grace too, but that grace is what holds us to that higher standard! In the Old Testament, you had to commit adultery to be guilty of it. In the New Testament, under grace, all you have to do to be guilty of adultery is to think about it!

The two scriptures I posted in my post above are relative to your point, too. If a Christian finds themselves using disparaging words towards another person, we should remember that it's not that person who we're against. God loves everyone!

Ephesians 6:12 says, “For we are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies, but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places.”

God hates sin, never people. We're supposed to follow Jesus' example, and that's what He lived out. Even someone we might be considered the worst person we've ever known, has a chance to know Jesus and be saved. As long as people draw breath, there is hope.

1 John 2:3-6, "We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did."

I'd like to temper my previous post by saying that I'm gratified that there was a lot of good, thoughtful discussion in this thread and, indeed, the throughout the forums. The Christian Forum is a very different place than it was a few years ago, and this is largely due to the quality and integrity of the people here.

It's also quite possible that the single comment got lost in the larger thread. I just really didn't think I could let it slide.