Calvinism vs Arminianism

WildBill · Nov 21, 2007

james1611 said:
The bible never claims that hell is "unavoidable" for some people...that is the theological view known as Calvinism. It is countered by the clear teachings of scripture.

Christ is the "savior of all, specially those that believe." Christ sacrificial death was paid for all, but it must be applied to the individual by faith (specially those that believe).

The clear teaching of scripture is that God calls out to man and extends his mercy but man refuses.

The idea that the individual man is predestined by God to Heaven or Hell and can do nothing to change it is foreign to scripture. In fact, in every place where the word predestined or predestinated occurs, a careful examination will show that it refers to gifts given by God to the believer in Jesus Christ...example: "having an inheritance, being predestinated" Eph 1.
An inheritance has been predestined by God to every one in the body of Christ. Likewise believers are predestined to "be conformed to the image of his son"-Rom 8..."be adopted as children"-Eph 1.

Sanctification is more than Justification--being made innocent of sin through christ.

Adoption into his family as a child is more than Justification. And receiving an inheritance in heaven is more than Justification. these are all extra gifts "predestined" to those in the body of Christ.

What of the elect? The elect is every member of the body of christ. God elected the body of Christ to receive all things, etc...just as I might elect to give the republican party some gift...but I came into the republican party by choice...just as the individual comes into the body of Christ by choice.

Truely God must draw man or he will never come, but when God draws, man must respond to that drawing and freely receive the love of the truth (2thess 2) to be saved.

James
Pastor: Grace Baptist

This thread is in response to this post, which in its original context can be found in this thread.

I have two responses to this. Here’s the first:

I am astounded. How can someone claiming to be a pastor utterly blow off the need to give the Gospel in order to play Don Quiote with his personal theological positions? Here was someone who was faced with the prospect of hell and was seeking spiritual guidance, yet all you could do was attack windmills instead of ministering to someone who was seeking Christ. What utter foolishness! Where are your priorities, man? Are you so instantly willing to strain out gnats while swallowing camels? I rebuke you in the name of Christ, Sir, be faithful to your calling- be true to the gospel of our Lord and Savior above all things, and leave divisiveness behind.

And here’s the second:

james1611 said:
The bible never claims that hell is "unavoidable" for some people...that is the theological view known as Calvinism. It is countered by the clear teachings of scripture.

Your position is known as Arminianism, and is definitely NOT based on the clear teaching and plain discernment of scripture. Admittedly, it became popular in the US ever since that old heretic Charles Finney marred the world with his presence, but unfortunately, since his teaching favored man in charge instead of God, it became (and still is) widely popular in the arrogant American psyche.

If your statement,

james1611 said:
God elected the body of Christ to receive all things, etc...just as I might elect to give the republican party some gift...but I came into the republican party by choice...just as the individual comes into the body of Christ by choice.

… Is correct, then the God of the Bible CANNOT be the sovereign king of the universe. Thankfully, the one, true, triune God of the Universe IS sovereign, and He has plainly told of this in passages such as these…

Romans 8:29-30 said:
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called, whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified

Nehemiah 9:6 said:
You alone are the Lord, You have made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth and everything on it, the seas and all that is in them, and You preserve them all. The host of heaven worships You.

Psalms 33:10-11 said:
The Lord brings the counsel of the nations to nothing; He makes the plans of the peoples of no effect. The counsel of the Lord stands forever, the plans of His heart to all generations.

Ephesians 1:11 said:
In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will.

Psalms 145:14-16 said:
The Lord upholds all who fall, and raises up all who are bowed down. The eyes of all look expectantly to You, and You give them their food in due season. You open Your hand and satisfy the desire of every living thing.

I could quote dozens, if not hundreds more, but I hope you get the picture. It’s God, and not man, who is in charge here.

james1611 said:
The clear teaching of scripture is that God calls out to man and extends his mercy but man refuses.

Of course. Man is, by his birthright in Adam, fallen; an enemy to God and utterly dead in his sin. This is demonstrated clearly in scripture. For example:

Romans 3:21-23 said:
But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

Ephesians 2:1-3 said:
And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

Romans5:6-8 said:
For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarecely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. But God demonstrates His own love towards us, in that while we were still simmers, Christ died for us.

Psalm 51:5 said:
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me.

However when you add this statement-

james1611 said:
The idea that the individual man is predestined by God to Heaven or Hell and can do nothing to change it is foreign to scripture. In fact, in every place where the word predestined or predestinated occurs, a careful examination will show that it refers to gifts given by God to the believer in Jesus Christ...example: "having an inheritance, being predestinated" Eph 1.
An inheritance has been predestined by God to every one in the body of Christ. Likewise believers are predestined to "be conformed to the image of his son"-Rom 8..."be adopted as children"-Eph 1.

…it demonstrates that the writer has not himself done much of a careful examination of scripture. Please show your Greek/Hebrew analysis that would indicate that every place the word predestination is shown it refers only to God’s gifts. This is simply an absurd assertion.

The Biblical principle of predestination is an affront to the arrogant and prideful mind of fallen man. ‘What?’ The scoffer bleats. 'It’s God who chooses me and not the other way around?' Yes, it is. Now bear in mind that God does command all of mankind to repent, and indeed He does tell His chosen to choose this day whom we shall serve (Joshua 24:15). But you’ll have to throw a whole lot of God’s word out of the window if you want to get away from His sovereign predestination of all things- including our individual salvation. For example:

Romans 8:7-8 said:
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

John 6:44-46 said:
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God, He has seen the Father.”

Titus 3:3-5 said:
For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior towoard man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, thorugh the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit

Ephesians 2:8-9 said:
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is a gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Romans 3:9-11 said:
Whan then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. As it is written: There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.

Now I’ve heard some folks claim that us Calvinists think that, because of the biblical doctrine of predestination, that we feel no need to spread the Good News of Christ Risen- His glorious Gospel. This is a false premise. Note the following:

Matthew 28:19 said:
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit

Predestination does NOT mean, ‘Oh, if God calls them, fine. I don’t haveta do nuthin’. We are all called to be faithful to Him and His gospel. I have no clue who God is gonna call to Himself, or who he will use to that end. But I am, as a brother in Christ, called to give that Gospel freely to all who will hear, steadfast in the hope that the Lord will germinate the seeds of the Gospel thus planted. I pray, brother James, that you would go and do likewise.

Theognome

Pat~ · Nov 21, 2007

Heh, I've already done my time on this one. Got into pages and pages of debate with a 5-pointer back in my twenties (we dated about 3 or 4 months despite our differences), so I think I'll just referee this unwinnable discussion.

ETA: I'm neither 5-point nor Armenian. Guess you could say I believe in a theology of mystery concerning this.

WildBill · Nov 21, 2007

Pat~ said:
Heh, I've already done my time on this one. Got into pages and pages of debate with a 5-pointer back in my twenties (we dated about 3 or 4 months despite our differences), so I think I'll just referee this unwinnable discussion.

ETA: I'm neither 5-point nor Armenian. Guess you could say I believe in a theology of mystery concerning this.

Kewl. It's Christ that matters in the final analysis, anyway. A theology of mystery is quite acceptable- God's not so small that we could actually understand Him.

Theognome

flutecrafter · Nov 21, 2007

Our Lord is indeed in charge.
It is His choice that we get to choose to come to Him or not.

And no, I am neither Armenian or 5 point Calvinist, the scriptural truth seems
to lay between the two man-made extremes.

I will say that there have been some 5 pointers that have done damage to the
ones I am called to reach with their views.

mark

WildBill · Nov 21, 2007

I've seen damaging fellows on both extremes. We all too easily forget that it's the Gospel that comes first, not our theological scratching posts.

Theognome

BruceJ · Nov 22, 2007

I've rep'd you for your reply, Theo, but I'll respond in public, too:

BRAVO!

It's been apparent to me over the years that the more you study Scripture instead of studying about Scripture, you find the less it falls into any single neatly wrapped black-and-white package (cf. Isa. 55:8-9). Is systematic theology important? Of course, as it provides a framework for the logical processes of our very human minds to sort through and make sense of Scripture. But to re-paraphrase McGrath, Scripture should always be laid over our framework, never the other way around. God will take care of what and whom His Word affects (Isa. 55:10-11). He is the one who has intiated the good work in us and who will see it through to completion/perfection (Phil. 1:6).

As a final note, I stand beside the good pastor and accept Theo's rebuke. I, too, answered the thread too much from my head and not enough from my heart. My own comprehensive analysis of the true need the question revealed was lacking and may I be forgiven for that.

Thanks, Theo, and you, too, Pat for your reminders that balance is essential in the study of God's Word.

flutecrafter · Nov 22, 2007

Theognome said:
I've seen damaging fellows on both extremes. We all too easily forget that it's the Gospel that comes first, not our theological scratching posts.

Theognome

indeed true enough Theo.

what I get hit with though are witches and other pagans who have had someone tell them
that God just didn't mean for them to get saved.

THAT gets frustrating.

You are quite right though, we all do need to remember that the Gospel is indeed
what comes first.

mark

james1611 · Nov 22, 2007

Wrong title for this thread

Theo--

First of all I believe you have mistitled this thread: Arminianism...I don't think so. I believe the bible...not that man is in control as you have misquoted me as believing. I never said any such thing and you have no quote from me saying such a thing.

Secondly--I absolutely believe God to be sovereign Lord of the Universe...a clear statement and I have not claimed otherwise in any post. However, if by "Sovereignty" you mean that God must preordain every single action/reaction and thought in his creation, as Calvinism does then you have just redefined the word. Sovereignty defined is: Superior to all, highest authority, subject to no one, etc... and God absolutely is all of these things. But nowhere does the bible claim that God preordained any person to Hell apart from free will. Free will is exactly the way in which our Sovereign God chose to make man and the way in which he chose to interact with us. He ever gives man a choice to obey him. To the sinner, God ever gives the choice to repent and believe to be saved. This does not override God's sovereign authority in any way for he has chosen to interact with man in this way. God is in control and God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance...the bible is clear on this matter. It cannot be disputed.

Thirdly--You made an attempt to insult me by claiming that my response to your view of scripture in the other thread showed a failure to minister to a person's need. Actually trying to sort the truth from the erroneous view you expressed on Salvation is exactly the sort of ministering that needs to be done. Also I refuse to return your insults. that shows unchristian behavior on your part and would be immature to do so.

Fourthly--Why do you suppose that you need Greek and Hebrew to understand the biblical use of the word predestination. As you quoted from Romans 8 "we are predestined to be conformed to the image of his son..." this process of conforming sinners saved by grace to the image of the Son of God is called "Sanctification" We are separated unto God and conformed to his image as the spirit of God works in our lives. This is not Justification but is to the believer only. I stated this before when talking about Predestination. However, the word "predestination" in its varying forms occurs in the bible only four times, (2 x in Romans 8 & 2 x in Eph 1).

Predestination, predestinated, predestinate in these verses, clearly speaks about things which the Sovereign God chose to give only to believers. It never refers to Justification--which is being the process of making sinners JUST before God, by cleansing them of their sins through the shed blood of Jesus Christ. Predestination in the bible refers to "Sanctification, Adoption, and Inheritance" alone and there is no other reference in scripture--you don't have to speak Greek or Hebrew to understand that and I'm glad because God gave his word for the common sinner to be able to understand it and receive salvation by faith in Jesus Christ. We need not suppose that our bible is still chained to the pulpit of some medieval church in Europe as the case once was. WE have access and God given understanding of it today in plain language anyone can grasp.

Fifthly--I never stated in any form that we should not spread the Gospel. Where you came to that assumption I have no idea, but certainly not from the words of my previous post. The gospel is the power of God unto salvation. period. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. I never claimed anything else. You are correct when you say it is your duty to tell all sinners the gospel, that is the clear teaching of scripture, but the bible clearly states that "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him, and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:44) here we see that it is not the Arminian position of man seeking God, but God always has sought after man. He died for man, offers salvation to man, draws man by conviction and understanding of the truth, gives man the choice to place faith in Jesus Christ for salvation and accepts the sinner who repents toward God putting faith in Jesus Christ. God is always the initiator in the matter of salvation, but he has clearly given man a choice...the gospel message offers man salvation...in the calvinist position, God is making an offer that God really isn't giving him, for the calvinist claims God has already saved him and that the gospel message brings some evidence of God's forced salvation out of him by a changed life.
Actually Ephesians 1:13 gives the proper order for salvation--Notice: "In whom YE ALSO TRUSTED, AFTER that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: In whom also AFTER that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise."

Thus the biblical order of salvation is: 1. man hears the gospel, 2. man believes and trusts Jesus for salvation, 3. the Holy Spirit applies the merit of Christ sacrifice to the sinner and seals them.

Calvinism claims that salvation occurs in this order: 1. the Holy spirit by God's predestination to heaven, applies the merit of Christ's sacrifice and seals them, 2. The gospel message is heard by the secretly born again believer, 3. Because they are already forcibly saved (effectual grace) they respond appropriately to the gospel by confessing Jesus as their savior.

This is never given in Scripture and directly contradicts the order given in Ephesians 1:13. Nuff said.

Anyway, I am not an Arminian, however I used to be a Calvinist like you, mainly because of misunderstanding the use of predestination in the bible and then going to extra biblical writings by Calvin, Pink, Mac Authur, etc to have it explained to me. When I dropped the extra biblical stuff and got back to the bible, God set me straight again. I am not an Arminian but a bible believer and every scripture you quote, I believe...although I refuse to apply Calvinist doctrine to the bible--rather I prefer to apply the bible to Calvinist doctrine and any other to prove those doctrines by the Word.

At the end of Calvinism and this is inescapable when you follow it to the LOGICAL conclusion...Calvinism's definition of God's sovereignty causes God to be viewed as the author of Sin. It is an inescapable conclusion when calvinism claims every action and thought in the creation is preordained by God. Man and Angel become robots simply following their programming...but that is not biblical teaching at all. As God said in Prov. 1:24, 25 "I have called and ye refused..."

This is God's position throughout scripture: He calls man to repent, man stubbornly refuses. man is responsible for his sin, God is sovereign Lord of all and will punish man for his sin. Biblical and Right. By the way this is the most widely held position by christians, at least in the USA, so setting me up to sound untrained or unqualified to be a pastor is simply a cheap shot without merit. Calvinism is not the majority interpretation of scripture nor does it claim to be. But to suppose that I'm unlearned in the bible simply because I do not hold your view is not honest, but is circular reasoning...tricky but not honest.

My post is not as lengthy as yours, but I don't think it's necessary. This issue is very easy to understand. It doesn't have to be so complicated as people would like to think. God is not the author of Confusion after all.

Have a nice holiday (sincerely),
James
(As for my ?claim? to be a pastor, you may view my church's website and listen to my online radio preaching at "gbcharriman.blogspot.com" or click here: Grace Baptist Church

Pat~ · Nov 22, 2007

Theognome, I confess I did not read your initial post as thoroughly as I should have. I do feel a need to address just this part of it:

I have two responses to this. Here’s the first:

I am astounded. How can someone claiming to be a pastor utterly blow off the need to give the Gospel in order to play Don Quiote with his personal theological positions? Here was someone who was faced with the prospect of hell and was seeking spiritual guidance, yet all you could do was attack windmills instead of ministering to someone who was seeking Christ. What utter foolishness! Where are your priorities, man? Are you so instantly willing to strain out gnats while swallowing camels? I rebuke you in the name of Christ, Sir, be faithful to your calling- be true to the gospel of our Lord and Savior above all things, and leave divisiveness behind.

James was simply presenting his opinion, which he is, after all, entitled to have. Your holding a differing opinion from his is fine; however, rebuking him or implying that he was being less than pastoral, is not.

*takes off modly hat*

Carry on...gently.

MacAllister · Nov 22, 2007

I'm going to be less gentle than Pat, frankly.

There are lots of different brands of Christianity. Believe what you will, and discuss it -- by all means.

But there are Christians here of lots of different stripes, backgrounds, traditions, beliefs, and doctrines.

Theognome, you will NOT insult anyone else on this board for their faith, let alone "rebuke" him or her, whether you agree with the expression of that belief or not.

Unique · Nov 22, 2007

my karma eats your dogma... anyway...

i won't fight doctrine. i don't believe our Sovereign grants monopolies.

he is just.

.02 + tithe + tax = .02 more than i have, presently.

WildBill · Nov 24, 2007

james1611 said:
*See below*

It was never my intent to insult your person, but intent has no bearing on what transpired. I have offended you in the Lord, which thus is an offense to God Himself. For this, I ask for your forgveness.

Much of what you wrote I shall not respond to 'point by point', as this is not a forum for doctrinal debate, but rather for Christian writing. I will, however, respond to two points:

james1611 said:
Anyway, I am not an Arminian, however I used to be a Calvinist like you, mainly because of misunderstanding the use of predestination in the bible and then going to extra biblical writings by Calvin, Pink, Mac Authur, etc to have it explained to me. When I dropped the extra biblical stuff and got back to the bible, God set me straight again. I am not an Arminian but a bible believer and every scripture you quote, I believe...although I refuse to apply Calvinist doctrine to the bible--rather I prefer to apply the bible to Calvinist doctrine and any other to prove those doctrines by the Word.

At the end of Calvinism and this is inescapable when you follow it to the LOGICAL conclusion...Calvinism's definition of God's sovereignty causes God to be viewed as the author of Sin. It is an inescapable conclusion when calvinism claims every action and thought in the creation is preordained by God. Man and Angel become robots simply following their programming...but that is not biblical teaching at all. As God said in Prov. 1:24, 25 "I have called and ye refused..."

This baffles me. I have known folks who were Calvinist in their thinking who later turned from it, but in every case they were folks who were taught the doctrine by others and did not read his Institutes for themselves. Being a Pastor, I'm assuming that you are very familiar with Calvin's original work, which is the sourse of my confusion. Not only is this conclusion you speak of not present in The Institutes of the Christian Religion, but Calvin himself refutes this in many places within the work. For example:

John Calvin's Institutes said:
...For there is need of caution, lest we attend only to the natural ills of man, and thereby seem to ascibe them to the author of nature; impiety deeming it a sufficient defence if it can pretend that everything vicious in it proceeded in some sense from Gd, and not hesitating, when accused, to plead against God, and throw the blame of its guilt upon Him... Seeing, therefore, that the flesh is continually on the alert for subterfuges, by which it imagines it can remove the blame of its own wickedness from iself to some other quarter, we must diligently guard against this depraved procedure, and accordingly treat of the calamity of the human race in such a way as may cut off every evasion, and vindicate the justice of God against all who would impugn it.

And again, after giving much biblical refute of this erronious conclusion, he concludes in Chapter 17:

John Calvin said:
...I have already shown clearly how the same act at once betrays the guilt of man, and manifests the righteousness of God.

Calvin himself spends two chapters of his work showing this 'God being the author of sin' conclusion to be a false one, and in direct contradiction to the clear teaching of scripture. He also in Books two and three gives more proofs from scripture against this heretical concept. I would encourage you to read Calvin's own discourse on the topic again, as it is way to lengthy to post in it's entirety in this venue.

The other point I wished to make was this:

james1611 said:
My post is not as lengthy as yours, but I don't think it's necessary. This issue is very easy to understand. It doesn't have to be so complicated as people would like to think. God is not the author of Confusion after all.

Actually, most of my post was scripture and your quotes. Your response was, in actual count of personal composition, almost three times longer than what I wrote.

Theognome

WildBill · Nov 24, 2007

flutecrafter said:
indeed true enough Theo.
what I get hit with though are witches and other pagans who have had someone tell them
that God just didn't mean for them to get saved.

THAT gets frustrating.

You are quite right though, we all do need to remember that the Gospel is indeed
what comes first.

mark

It's more than frustrating. It's downright sinful, arrogant and idolatrous to presume to know the secret will of God. There are witches and pagans who the Lord has turned to him. Just look at the Apostle Paul! Who'da thunkit that he, of all people, would be reborn into such a champion of the faith?

Theognome

III · Nov 24, 2007

Rather than diving into the mix, let me just say what I like about five-point Calvinism and what I don't like about it.

What I love about it is the emphasis on Grace. I never understood the concepts of grace and repentance and regeneration and depravity until I wrestled deeply with the Calvinist views. God is truly sovreign beyond our wildest dreams - that is a reality worth meditating upon. His grace towards us is SO undeserved. Calvinism greatly raised my esteem of God's grace.

Where I have a problem with Calvinism is this - it takes a rigidly Western Logic approach to a topic that I don't think was intended to be understood in a Western manner. Calvinism says if A = B and B = C then A = C and B*C = A[SUP]2[/SUP]. This approach appeals to my Western logic, but I think the ultimate conclusions are too constrained.

Scripture is largely communicated in an Eastern philosophical way and if we try to force a Western set of logical rules on it, we lose so much of the authorial intent and therefore so much of the potency of Scripture to transform our lives.

So personally, I vascillate. I easily accept Calvinism in my mind, but my heart and spirit tell me there's a much bigger picture than can be contained neatly in my logical box. Fortunately, we have been given the master key - LOVE. It is the litmus test and goal, always.

flutecrafter · Nov 24, 2007

Well III, I think you have the right of it.

james1611 · Nov 24, 2007

Theo

Theo--

Not trying to baffle ... let me explain. When I say that I used to be a calvinist, here it is. I was confused about Romans 9 and sought to understand it as a young christian. When I went to those who taught in my church they made fun of me and called me a hypercalvinist. However, I noticed that they couldn't explain it to me.

So, in my search I went to Calvin and others who taught on calvinism and found Calvin's Institutes and many books on systematic theology following five point calvinism. I thought that I had found some secret knowledge that other christians were too simple to understand...it was exhilarating to go back to my teachers in my church and essentially rebuke them for there lack of knowledge using my newfound systematic theology. They could not contend and this bolstered my resolve that I must be right.

However, a dear friend who was sound in theology would not submit to what I was saying. Because he was a dear friend, rather than getting my feelings hurt, I began to search out the matter from both sides. I found quite a bit of biblical teaching which explained these scriptures within a biblical framework and did not have to do things like (change the meaning of "world" to mean only christians--or the meaning of "all" to mean only ALL CHRISTIANS)--this is what is happening in calvinism. When the bible says God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance...then the calvinist is forced to deal with a problem. The only recourse has been to change the meaning of plain words like ALL & ANY & WORLD & SOVEREIGNTY.

I've been there Theo and studied it with a passion trying to show my fellow christians to be without true knowledge. Calvinism is often taught in this manner--as secret knowledge that most don't possess. The cream of the crop, if you will. However when I got away from man's systematic theology, and went back to only the bible, then God cleared things up for me, answered the questions I had and showed me what the real meaning of difficult passages like those verses on PREDESTINATION. It was easy all of the time, I had simply refused to let God teach me instead of Calvin and Pink, etc...

The baffling part...where I claimed that Calvinism cannot escape making God the author of Sin...please allow me to explain why I say that.

Calvinism establishes a system of theology where God's sovereignty is taken to such limits that He must have ordained all things...would you agree?
The actual definition of Sovereignty is not the same as Calvinism's definition. God is sovereign according to the normal use of the word. This is all that is necessary for God to be sovereign...And as I said: all of those verses you quoted on God being Sovereign are absolutely true, just using the normal dictionary definition of sovereignty. To blow up the definition to Calvinism's view of God's sovereignty is not necessary for those verses to be true...they already are.
Because Calvinism's definition claims that God has PREORDAINED all things, this is what you are saying: God must have preordained every action and reaction...but that isn't enough...to do so, he would have to control every thought leading to that action...but that is not enough...He would have to control every event and circumstance that led to that thought and then those actions/reactions....do you see where this is going?
When Calvinism places such a misdefined view of Sovereignty on our God, then ultimately when you follow the logical trail of conclusions and reason you will come to one unmistakable and unescapable conclusion: YOU MAKE GOD THE AUTHOR OF SIN!
This is the problem with calvinism: they constructed the framework on a few hard to understand passages of scripture concerning election, predestination, chosen, called, foreordination, loving Jacob & hating Esau, etc.. and then applied it to the whole bible...ONCE IT WAS IN PLACE, SOMEONE RIGHTLY POINTS OUT THAT THIS LEADS TO GOD BEING MADE THE AUTHOR OF SIN in this way of viewing sovereignty...but rather than deconstruct Calvinism, the calvinist holds to his theology and simply says, "No, man is responsible and God isn't."
But the problem is still there, Theo, because just making that statement doesn't eliminate the the line of reasoning within calvinism which will always LOGICALLY lead to God being made the author of sin. The theological system is the problem here and the misdefinition of the word "sovereignty" not the BIBLE.
For example: If man's every action had to be foreordaine, then every thought leading to those actions had to be foreordained and on we could go. The conclusion: Man sinned because he was foreordained to do so...then one could go on and say that SAtan was foreordained to sin (since he is a created being) and on we go until every bit of the creation is lacking free will and simply doing what God programmed it to do.

Theo--this is not biblical, but it is the unescapable conclusion one will come to if they follow the logic to its devastating conclusion. Simply saying it isn't the case doesn't change the logical conclusion. Calvinism is a theological trap of sorts.

You might say, "It does not harm me, for I exalt God to the highest and bring man to the lowest." True: Calvinism can do that...but so does plain bible teaching apart from calvinism.

But wait: what about those unbelievers who are being told (as a result of this teaching) that they are predestined to go to hell or to Heaven. The responsibility has just been removed from them. They say, "well there's nothing I can do, God will either save me or I'm already going to hell and there's nothing I can do about it."

How terrible a conclusion to come to!! God in the bible is always telling man that he has the choice to repent, that God wants him to repent and that he is responsible for repenting and putting faith in Jesus!

the theology might not do harm to the calvinist so much, but it does to those unbelievers who are led to think they have no choice or hope in the matter. That is not scriptural. And I can't support it.

We will differ in our opinions I suppose, but I've said my peace and I wish you well. Your theology has been mine at one time and I've seen what real problems it holds--exalts God, but unavoidably makes him the author of sin--diminishes man's pride, but can leave unbelievers with no hope.

I'm unable to support any of that. Not anymore. What we both believe will be sorted by our heavenly High priest and King at the Judgment seat. He will show us what we did right or wrong and reward us accordingly.

I'm simply explaining why I WAS a Calvinist but can no longer hold to such damaging theology.

I hope you are well,
Pastor James Somers

Deleted member 42 · Nov 24, 2007

Lord.

It's like watching the English Reformation all over again . . .

Where's Hooker when we need him?

BruceJ · Nov 24, 2007

Medievalist said:
Lord.

It's like watching the English Reformation all over again . . .

Where's Hooker when we need him?

WriterGirl2007 · Nov 25, 2007

Wow.

That's all I have to say about the OP. Reminds me why I often avoid 5-point Calvinists.

WildBill · Nov 25, 2007

WriterGirl2007 said:
Wow.

That's all I have to say about the OP. Reminds me why I often avoid 5-point Calvinists.

Gee, and all this time I thought it was my deoderant.

I have seen and heard firsthand the damnable actions of 'hyper-calvinists', and against such ilk I also affirm your rejection. However, being a Reformed Christian doesn't make one an 'asshole for Christ'. (if you'll pardon the expression). The most loving, understanding and patient fellowship of God's people I've ever encountered are 'Calvinists'.

Since James was kind enough to post some of his own testimony on this thread, I'll likewise do so- although it will have to wait until Monday evening. I just won't have the time to do so until then.

Theognome

III · Nov 25, 2007

If I can put on my mod hat for a moment (yeah, yeah, I know I'm the music mod), let's keep in mind that this is a particularly flamable topic. It's great to see the responses basted in love, and let's try to avoid any straw man arguments. I'd hate to see an intelligent thread like this get ported to TIO.

rwam · Nov 26, 2007

I think the thing that theologians have a hard time grasping is this: Just because God has the power to control everything doesn't necessarily mean He exercises that power.

Most people naturally tailor their image of God to someone they can relate to. I've only known a few "hyper-Calvinists" and darn if each one of them was a control freak.

Hey. I'm just saying.

Shadow_Ferret · Nov 26, 2007

I know who Calvin is.

But what cartoon is Arminian?

Roger J Carlson · Nov 26, 2007

Shadow_Ferret said:
I know who Calvin is.

But what cartoon is Arminian?

http://bromattsblog.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/cartoon061807-380x384.jpg

I've never been deeply interested in labels. I can find just as many scripture references for predestination as I can for free will. People who argue one over the other usually do so by emphasizing the scripture supporting one and diminishing those supporting the other.

Who are we to diminish scripture - any scripture?

But then how can two, diametrically opposite view both be true? If one is true, then the other must be false, right? Unfortunately, I don't see anywhere in scripture that says that God is limited by human logic and understanding.

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
—Isaiah 55:8-9

To me, this seeming contradiction in scripture simply means that there is something fundamental that I don't understand about how the universe works. It must be possible for God to both predetermine who will accept him and also give each of us the choice. How is this possible? I don't know. My thoughts are so much lower than God's.

rwam · Nov 26, 2007

I agree. God's smart enough to reconcile the two.

Roger J Carlson said:
http://bromattsblog.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/cartoon061807-380x384.jpg

I've never been deeply interested in labels. I can find just as many scripture references for predestination as I can for free will. People who argue one over the other usually do so by emphasizing the scripture supporting one and diminishing those supporting the other.

Who are we to diminish scripture - any scripture?

But then how can two, diametrically opposite view both be true? If one is true, then the other must be false, right? Unfortunately, I don't see anywhere in scripture that says that God is limited by human logic and understanding.

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
—Isaiah 55:8-9

To me, this seeming contradiction in scripture simply means that there is something fundamental that I don't understand about how the universe works. It must be possible for God to both predetermine who will accept him and also give each of us the choice. How is this possible? I don't know. My thoughts are so much lower than God's.

Calvinism vs Arminianism

WildBill

Pat~

Luftmensch Emeritus, A.D.D.

WildBill

flutecrafter

WildBill

BruceJ

Me and my Muse

flutecrafter

james1611

Pat~

Luftmensch Emeritus, A.D.D.

MacAllister

Tired and worried.

Unique

Agent of Doom

WildBill

WildBill

III

rockin the suburbs

flutecrafter

james1611

Deleted member 42

BruceJ

Me and my Muse

WriterGirl2007

Black hole of writing...

WildBill

III

rockin the suburbs

rwam

Shadow_Ferret

Court Jester

Roger J Carlson

Moderator In Name Only

rwam