Gotten?

CaroGirl · Nov 18, 2007

Who uses this word? As in, "I had gotten the best prize at the fair." I always thought the correct construction was "had got" but more and more I see this "gotten". I don't like it, nor do I use it, but I must assume it has some credence or I wouldn't see it in published work. Did it arise because of "forgotten"? Can anyone enlighten me on gotten?

KTC · Nov 18, 2007

I've gotten use of the word...in dialogue.

scarletpeaches · Nov 18, 2007

I hate the word 'gotten'. Second only to 'normalcy'.

CaroGirl · Nov 18, 2007

KTC said:
I've gotten use of the word...in dialogue.

Oh sure. In dialogue anything goes. People say gotten. But what about in narrative? Do you use it? I won't.

Haggis · Nov 18, 2007

Isn't this a Brit/American English difference thingy?

veinglory · Nov 18, 2007

It is an American usage as far as I can tell, but a regional one.

Duncan J Macdonald · Nov 18, 2007

veinglory said:
It is an American usage as far as I can tell, but a regional one.

I personally have no issues with "gotten".

From Dictionary.com's usage note:

—Usage note For nearly 400 years, forms of get have been used with a following past participle to form the passive voice: She got engaged when she was 19. He won't get accepted with those grades. This use of get rather than of forms of to be in the passive is found today chiefly in speech and informal writing.
In British English got is the regular past participle of get, and gotten survives only in a few set phrases, such as ill-gotten gains. In American English gotten, although occasionally criticized, is an alternative standard past participle in most senses, especially in the senses “to receive” or “to acquire”: I have gotten (or got) all that I ever hoped for.

veinglory · Nov 18, 2007

Yes, but as noted it has really not survived in general use in the UK and most other, um, former colonies.

KTC · Nov 18, 2007

CaroGirl said:
Oh sure. In dialogue anything goes. People say gotten. But what about in narrative? Do you use it? I won't.

no. never. normalcy wouldn't allow it.

Devil Ledbetter · Nov 18, 2007

CaroGirl said:
Who uses this word? As in, "I had gotten the best prize at the fair." I always thought the correct construction was "had got" but more and more I see this "gotten". I don't like it, nor do I use it, but I must assume it has some credence or I wouldn't see it in published work. Did it arise because of "forgotten"? Can anyone enlighten me on gotten?

I don't use it because it's a bla word. You can almost always find a stronger verb than gotten.

I had gotten the prize vs. I won the prize
I had gotten the flu vs. I contracted the flu
I had gotten over him vs. I purged him from memory
I had gotten a dog vs. I adopted a dog
I had gotten a divorce vs. I divorced him.

job · Nov 18, 2007

CaroGirl said:
Who uses this word? As in, "I had gotten the best prize at the fair." I always thought the correct construction was "had got" but more and more I see this "gotten". I don't like it, nor do I use it, but I must assume it has some credence or I wouldn't see it in published work. Did it arise because of "forgotten"? Can anyone enlighten me on gotten?

As there are 69+ million refs to 'gotten' in Google, I should imagine lots of people use it.

'Gotten' is not incorrect or informal English. In fact, it's original and respected usage. Americans kept the older usage. Brits dropped it in Victorian times.

Now me, I'm writing stuff set in England in 1800. 'Gotten' was still perfectly proper British English in 1800. Defoe uses it, and George Fox, Hannah Moore, Francis Bacon, Coleridge, Samuel Johnson etc.

If I were writing in post-Victorian Brit times, I'd do a universal search of the ms and pull 'gotten' out.
Writing set in pre-Victorian Britain or in America -- 'gotten' is perfectly standard English. It's not even informal.

Sandi LeFaucheur · Nov 18, 2007

I was always brought up never to say "got". "I have a cold" not "I've got a cold". So got is bad enough, and gotten is simply beyond the pale! Frightfully American. (There! Don't I sound horribly snobbish?

Feel free to pounce on me...I'm in that kind of mood...

)

aliajohnson · Nov 18, 2007

Sandi LeFaucheur said:
I was always brought up never to say "got". "I have a cold" not "I've got a cold". So got is bad enough, and gotten is simply beyond the pale! Frightfully American. (There! Don't I sound horribly snobbish? Feel free to pounce on me...I'm in that kind of mood... )

lol!

All those adverbs! Shame on you. :tongue

Judg · Nov 18, 2007

I use both forms and in my mind they are not quite the same thing.

"Have you got it?" = Is it here with you now?

"Have you gotten it?" = Have you received it?

I am not attempting to say any of this is standard.

I would also be more inclined to use "gotten" when it means become. "I've gotten better at this."

In North America, we've preserved a lot of older forms, which is a very standard linguistic phenomenon. Offshoots of a language tend to hold onto archaic forms longer. This one is in the process of becoming archaic, so it's not surprising to find North Americans on both sides of the issue. I'm actually surprised that you are just beginning to notice it. It's really pretty standard around here.

brer · Nov 18, 2007

CaroGirl said:
Who uses this word? As in, "I had gotten the best prize at the fair." I always thought the correct construction was "had got" but more and more I see this "gotten". I don't like it, nor do I use it, but I must assume it has some credence or I wouldn't see it in published work. Did it arise because of "forgotten"? Can anyone enlighten me on gotten?

CaroGirl, what's gotten into you? *I got meself a puzzled look as I scratch me head*

I grew up using that word. There ain't nothin' wrong with dat word, so there!

daoine · Nov 18, 2007

My grammar guide claims "'Gotten' is an American variant of the past participle 'got'; in British English its use is restricted to such expressions as 'ill-gotten' gains."

So, it can be used as an alternative to 'got' in America, but avoid it if you're writing for UK markets.

KTC · Nov 19, 2007

I just don't use it because it sounds ugly and wrong. I have words I don't like. This is one. If a character says it in dialogue, it's usually a base character. The same type of person who would go to a hootenanny. It sounds redneck to me. Just because it's right ain't a reason to use it.

Carmy · Nov 19, 2007

"Gotten" is responsible for books being hurled across the room and into File 13.

Even "got" was frowned upon in my school days. Most of the time it can be replaced with "have".

job · Nov 19, 2007

I feel I have to put in a kind word for 'gotten'. I've a fondness for simple, straightforward, gutteral, chunky words. I like prose with some weight and heft to it. And I don't consider British usage superior to American usage.

Consider ...

It sounds like the Great Brain has gotten to you.

Finally, we'd gotten the last hatchery catalog and curled up on the couch to read it.

Baba had nearly gotten himself shot by a stoned, psalm-singing border guard.

There was no way he could get out of the mess he'd gotten himself into with the cholera flag.

That's clear, straightforward, robust writing.
I can't see any reason to work around 'gotten' in those sentences.

A quick search through 20 bestselling books found 'gotten' in nearly half of them -- and not in dialog.
Marquez, Kingsolver, Hosseini, Ludlum . . . These are excellent stylists.

I don't want to say one shouldn't dislike the word if that's your taste. I just don't see any indication that 'gotten' is being avoided by careful writers in general.

CaroGirl · Nov 19, 2007

Personally, I would replace every instance of "gotten" in your examples with the word "got". Even more straightforward and simple, and better sounding to me. I was raised to eschew the gotten, and I shall.

job said:
It sounds like the Great Brain has gotten to you.

Finally, we'd gotten the last hatchery catalog and curled up on the couch to read it.

Baba had nearly gotten himself shot by a stoned, psalm-singing border guard.

There was no way he could get out of the mess he'd gotten himself into with the cholera flag.

That's clear, straightforward, robust writing.
I can't see any reason to work around 'gotten' in those sentences.

IceCreamEmpress · Nov 19, 2007

"None of us had gotten our grades until long after the semester ended" is absolutely 100% correct American English.

If a US writer gave me "None of us had got our grades until long after the semester ended" I would flag it as a Britishism (assuming the publisher wanted me to flag those).

However, if you don't like it, CaroGirl, don't use it. Your not liking it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it, though.

Sandi LeFaucheur · Nov 19, 2007

IceCreamEmpress said:
"None of us had gotten our grades until long after the semester ended" is absolutely 100% correct American English.

If a US writer gave me "None of us had got our grades until long after the semester ended" I would flag it as a Britishism (assuming the publisher wanted me to flag those).

However, if you don't like it, CaroGirl, don't use it. Your not liking it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it, though.

How about "None of us received our grades until long after the semester ended"? Got or gotten is not necessary at all.

But then, I'm quickly becoming a pedantic old fart.

girlyswot · Nov 19, 2007

Job I think there a couple of other things worth considering when you're writing pre-Victorian English. First, if you're writing for a UK market, the word will still sound American to your readers, even if it is an historically correct usage. And second, though it was indeed used in earlier English, I'm not convinced it was 'standard' (in the sense that it was always or usually the preferred form) nor that its use precisely matched that of modern-day America.

scarletpeaches · Nov 19, 2007

Every time someone says or writes 'gotten', it makes baby Jesus cry.

girlyswot · Nov 19, 2007

scarletpeaches said:
Every time someone says or writes 'gotten', it makes baby Jesus cry.

LOL. In my (American) ESV bible I have actually crossed out the word gotten in one place, because I just couldn't read it without putting on a (bad) American accent and laughing. It's in Genesis 4 where Eve gives birth to Cain and announces, 'I have gotten a man from the Lord.' I feel like Tammy Wynette when I say that.

Gotten?

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