Opening the Games

I keep my cookies, so they always show up for me, unless I've been cleaning, in which case I just sign back in again.
It'd be nice to see more AWers here, would changing things make much difference?

No password! The new change in habit would keep all of my works from starting with the password then, which is always so hard to rhyme.

poetinahat said:

the punters, lurkers and bookers

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Wait a minute . . . they're a notorious Boston mob - you might not want 'em around, they'll set up a bookie op right here in this idyllic sylvan glade, rating poems and betting on 'em and stuff.



To answer your actual question, it seems like a nice idea to me.

put games in the main forum and poetry discussion in the main forum - keep the crit and chapbook password protected.

just my two shiny pennies.

Well, I have been very busy and haven't been able to contribute much around here for a couple of weeks, but I still consider this my "Home" and just a great place, so when it comes to opinions on how it should run I feel I owe it to myself to make time to participate.

I'd vote to keep it the way it is. People that are interested don't have a problem entering a password, and those that aren't interested won't bother anyway, no matter how "easy" you make it for them.

For me personally, it would dampen the spontaneity of the Games. If they (the games) were unprotected, I probably wouldn't post as much which is no big deal in the scheme of things.

I never fully understand the reason for these questions of "opening" things up all the time. This is a Writers Forum, Writer's, of all people, understand the need for protecting the publication rights and shouldn't have any problem with a simple password. Trying to accomodate "readers" or "lurkers" etc. is great and I think you all have come up with a good way of having both. But, when it comes to setting policy (if that's what you call it) I think the scale must tip in favor of the Writer who is here to learn and shape their craft with an eye toward possible publication, not the occasional, or potential "visitor" who simply wants to read. And, to me, this is not about money or fame. If I was doing this for money I'd have given up long ago, and fame just makes your phone ring more (and I hate being disturbed by the phone). This is about the current rules in the publishing world. I think it's stupid that having something in a forum deems it "published", but that is the way it is.

The bottom line is, is this a Writers Forum, or a Reader and Lurkers Forum? I think you've done the best to make it both within the confines of the rules set by Publishers, and while we are indeed only discussing Games, sometimes people post a real gem. I'd rather see the gems than have someone reconsider a post because it's no longer protected.

I say NO leave them as is. I've had a couple published already. I'd like to have the option to find something I wrote in there and use it if I want to. So...please leave it password protected. Most who view the password parts will have the cookie in their files anyway, right...so they can already see them. Anyone else, all they have to do is enter it. They can read the intro and go in if they want.

If it ain't broke...

What writer and KTC said. I'd hate to go through and delete posts and not play because it is "published' when I post it.

I love the industry's double standard of "you're not published, but the poem is" and while I've made all of nothing on my writing, I'm still being rejected and unpaid, but there's always the hope.

You're being rejected? I love your stuff...

As I see it, the use of passwords isn't designed to keep ANYONE out, it's there to protect those who want to "Publish" in face of the policies by "Poetry Magazine" and other publications, to consider any thing posted on the web that is not password protected as "Published" and therefore having given up their "first rights".

The rationalization for considering password protected works as "unpublished" is that they are considered to be part of a "workshop", and therefore simply exercises.

The criteria and the rationalization are both "bogus" , but they exist and are becoming more prevelant.

I personally have dozens of poems that appear on my personal website at Shadow Poetry.com that are therefore ineligible for submission to such markets because they are NOT password protected, and that policy hampers me greatly in obtaining enough publishing credits to qualify for book publication by any but Vanity Publshers, which are usless in establishing a reputation, because such are not accepted by Libraries, Brick and Mortar Book Stores, or for reputable review

Think about it.

Jim Hoye, (JRH)

Poet,

I don't think GAMES of any kind should actually need password protection as few if any of them will ever be published, but this forum is also home to Haiku/Senryu, Limericks and other short forms, all of which could find publication unless banned by the arbitrary rules that some publications impose, (although such is unlikely with most short forms). If the posters don't mind chancing rejection and/or have NO plans to publish, then there's NO valid reason to maintain Password protection, here.

Jim Hoye. (JRH)

Like I said, I've had poems from the games published, both in print and online journals. I'd prefer things kept the way they are.

KTC's posts have changed my earlier, silly opinion. He makes a good case for keeping things as they are, I think. I admittedly hadn't thought of some of the possible consequences.

I'm not a long term member of AbsoluteWrite, and haven't participated in any of the rudolph games, but I did vote for keeping things as they are... for the reasons already mentioned and also with respect to .. if any potential members are interested in viewing these forums, all it takes is a quick registration and they can participate... I think the password protection also arouses curiosity and well ... nuf said - (giggle)

Best of everything, Liz

I vote to keep the protection. Who knows, I might actually get something published one day.

Hmmmm, I confess I don’t understand the mindset of some here.

The question is not whether to permit poems that are being worked on for submission, to not be password-protected. It is whether to allow wider access to poetry games.

They are GAMES. If you submit something you created on a game – then remove it. It’s that simple.

This issue came up when I realized I had not been seeing anything poetry-related for awhile. Sometimes my cookies get erased or whatever and if someone posts a poem etc. I have abslutely no idea and have gone for long periods of time without even realizing that nothing from the poetry forums was even coming up.

I missed voting on some of the contests and missed countless poems from friends on the forum because, due to the password/cookie thing, they didn’t exist for me whenever I came onsite.

I also wondered why there seemed so little participation is some of the poetry games and then realized that a majority of the members probably weren’t even aware of them.

Plus, I know of a couple of newer members who participate in some of the OP threads and a few of the "cliquey" silly threads, who have posted poems and then been discouraged because there seemed little activity.

It just seemed to me that if the poems had been visible, then the people who knew the person from other threads/sub-forums would've checked them out, at least out of curiosity and might've actually hung out or become intrigued enough to participate more in the forum and maybe post something also.

But if a person hasn't already actively seeked out the poetry forum and entered the password, they'll never have anything from it show up when they're out and about on the boards and so will forever remain ignorant of what it contains.

I've noticed that since it's behind a password area etc. - it doesn't get seen by anybody but the hardcore poem people. In other words, if someone joins the site and doesn’t actively seek out the poetry forums (and as I’ve stated even if they do, since cookies sometimes delete or expire etc.) they will never be aware of what it contains – and that includes games which are just exercises to stimulate creativity and vocabulary.

They will never see anything poem-related while browsing threads and one day think: “Hmmm… let me check that out…”

They will not be intrigued by a poetry game and try their hand and maybe inspire something beautiful that they can use later or build a true poem out of.

They will not accidentally run into the beauty of a well-crafted poem and feel the impact on their heart.

They will not feel its power and then seek to emulate it, to learn more, to spread the dream.

They will remain blind, while others will continue to decry the decline of poetry and why society ignores it.

Work that is going to be submitted to a market – of course password protect it. But chapbook poems? Poems not meant to be tossed out and squashed by the submission process but meant to be shared and enjoyed with the whole world?

I’ve had poetry published and have removed poems. And even yet, I’m willing to let any poem that I choose to share (and not submit) be available for public viewing. How many poets show their work on their own webpage? It’s the same thing.

Why password protect it? If the author someday chooses to submit it to a market, remove it. Are the poetry markets so eager to accept your work that an editor is going to instantly google your poem to make sure it isn’t anywhere else to be found before they send you a big fat check?

And if you want chapbook poems protected – fine. But GAMES?!

I just feel that all these walls stifle interaction and participation. It keeps it inclusive. It's like inbreeding. The same fish swim around in the little pool causing it to stagnate.

If you choose to keep it inclusive and inbred – fine, but I just feel it’s a mistake. But don’t complain about how poetry’s dying a slow death.

Remember: nothing attracts a crowd like a crowd.

And you know what? Anybody who hasn’t inserted the password or has had it accidentally cleared doesn’t even know this poll exists. Just like the poetry.

Just my thoughts…

B

As the creator of Chain, Chain, Chain of Haiku Fools, I'd like to weigh in . . . release it.

Ever since the game got locked up, I have felt like I was part of a group of kids on a playground who had their ball ceased by the grumpy old man next-door who wouldn't release it.

When the game was on the open board, the level of viewing and participation was more spontaneous and invigorating--sometimes down right addictive. Participants often had to scramble to be able to be the next poster. Those were the good ol' days

NO Dear gods, can't we kill this subject once and for all? It's one password, one. Share Your Work has a password and that doesn't seem to hamper the action going on there. If people want to do the poetry thing they will enter the password and play, if they're not interested no amount of 'openness' will make them so.

If people are just dying for 'open' games (as opposed to just being fine with it), put those games in the public writing exercises thread and be done with it. I will keep to the password protected games thread because I actually have delusions of being published one day. It will probably lead to some devision in which only the 'hardcore' visit both places, or maybe just keep to the password protected part, but some people will always take a larger interest, that's just the way it is.

In conclusion -how many times are we going to kick this thing? Just let the poor horse die. The forum has its ups and downs, it always did, it always will. People will come, people will leave, people will be gone for a while and then return. Let them be, and let us be so.

*growls a little" And leave my poems be either way. As it is now I'm thinking about removing all my work from here and be done. Not because I don't love you guys, but because I sometimes take hiatus from my forums and I don't want to return in six months and see that after the fiftieth round of password discussion all my work is now open for Google, be it glorious or not.

//End Rant...

Argh. Why does this issue keep coming up in poetry. If it ain't broken, don't ask everybody if they want to fix it. I agree with your rant Rivana.

The point is that some people feel it is broken, obviously. Or else it wouldn't keep coming up.

Poet's job as moderator isn't to keep particular members happy or feeling safe. It is to make this sub-forum as accessible and informative as possible. This is a public forum dedicated to writing and improvement of said form. Not people's personal storage space or private podium.

His job is not an easy one but it may sometimes involve making decisions that are designed with the forum as a whole in mind, and not just for a select few.

With that said, it doesn't matter to me either way but I seriously think that it will affect the poetry forum negatively in the long run. I think I recall seeing a thread about this in the past and Haskin's comments along these same lines. I might be wrong about what he said, but if not, I now agree with his assessment.

In the end, it ranks of the snobbery you hear people complaining about when they speak about modern day poetry and poets. But if that's what everybody decides - oh well. Have fun.

Please don't change it. I vote No.

I'd like to hear the reasoning behind those who don't wish to change it. And I sure hope it isn't: "Cuz I'm used to it this way."

Why should games be password-protected?

Why shouldn't they be protected?

As others have said, we may want to submit them somewhere at some point.

It would be a PITA to remove them all and that would leave great gaping holes throughout all the games.

How is a password keeping anyone out? If they want to play it's right there.

if I don't comne back right away - i'm not ignoring you. I'm at work and I just came in to grab a few poems for our newsletter.
seemelaterbye

brokenfingers said:

The point is that some people feel it is broken, obviously. Or else it wouldn't keep coming up.

Poet's job as moderator isn't to keep particular members happy or feeling safe. It is to make this sub-forum as accessible and informative as possible. This is a public forum dedicated to writing and improvement of said form. Not people's personal storage space or private podium.

His job is not an easy one but it may sometimes involve making decisions that are designed with the forum as a whole in mind, and not just for a select few.

With that said, it doesn't matter to me either way but I seriously think that it will affect the poetry forum negatively in the long run. I think I recall seeing a thread about this in the past and Haskin's comments along these same lines. I might be wrong about what he said, but if not, I now agree with his assessment.

In the end, it ranks of the snobbery you hear people complaining about when they speak about modern day poetry and poets. But if that's what everybody decides - oh well. Have fun.

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This has nothing to do with snobbery or keeping people feeling "safe." Password protection is simply to protect first rights. It is not elitism to ask people to type a simple 6-letter word; we have password protection on any of the forums where people are hoping to submit work. Is that snobbery?

And I think you might want to reconsider "a select few"...it has been this way all along because we already voted on it once, and the majority wanted the password.

Work that is going to be submitted to a market – of course password protect it. But chapbook poems? Poems not meant to be tossed out and squashed by the submission process but meant to be shared and enjoyed with the whole world?

I’ve had poetry published and have removed poems. And even yet, I’m willing to let any poem that I choose to share (and not submit) be available for public viewing. How many poets show their work on their own webpage? It’s the same thing.

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First of all, I don't even post stuff on my website unless it's already been published. The same standard applies there, in the eyes of a publisher.

Secondly, you draw a pretty harsh line about submitting poetry--submissions don't 'squash' or 'toss out' poems and make them unable to be enjoyed by the whole world...they enable poems to be seen by more than just the visitors to AW.

I'd like to hear the reasoning behind those who don't wish to change it. And I sure hope it isn't: "Cuz I'm used to it this way."

Why should games be password-protected?

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I think the main reason has already been stated by several long-time posters here--the password is necessary to protect the 'first-rights' standard held by most publishers.

Please don't change it...there are too many good poets posting, who might stop if it were unprotected. Poets like to be able to possibly publish their creations, even in the games.

Besides, I think some games are unprotected already, no? (I'm thinking of the Limericks in Office Party.) I think it also would be fine if the "chain" poems (eg. haiku) were not protected, in that those are group-created, and not publishable anyway.

ETA: I have no real objection to posting a public games thread as well, except that it seems we already have so many threads/forums here at AW. It may confuse things, as well as dilute the password-protected game threads.