difficult heroes

[oscuridad]

This kind of relates to the tragic villains thread. How do you write a hero where the hero is of a sort who would normally be a villain - you know, an obvious example - a bent copper, say. Now I don't mean a redemption kind of thing, I mean, right from the go, writing a type of person who would normally be disliked by your audience in a way that makes them acceptable as a hero.

Any thoughts would be most welcome.

[red lantern]

For me to do this, (keep in mind I am a green horn) I would make him as I wanted him, for example a copper who took bribes. Then naturally the real villain would have to be something worse - homicidal maniac, rapist etc and my hero would have some direct dealings with him where he had to realize that their is more than one shade of grey but black is black. You make him/her a hero by making the world around him/her even worse than they are.

[Momento Mori]

Voice helps - if you read the Dexter book series you can't help but root for him. In the fantasy genre, I think Scott Lynch gets a similar effect with The Lies of Locke Lamora (and I think I've spelt that wrong but am too lazy to go the 2 metres to my book shelf). A sense of humour's usually good to work with - think Francis Urqhart in House of Cards or Gene Hunt in Life on Mars (I know they're tv examples, but I still think they hold true).

Personally though, I think the trick is to not shoehorn your MC into the hero bracket, but instead have them do their own thing. If they're really that bothered about being a hero, then why are they doing horrible things? If you've got someone who's being a hero by accident, I think that's much more interesting. But that's just my opinion.

MM

[Chasing the Horizon]

Most of my stories involve anti-heroes/heroines, so I really should have a good answer to this, but I'm not entirely sure how I do it, lol. You have to give the hero/heroine some redeeming qualities, some reason for the audience to like them, and if they do 'bad' things (or have done a lot of bad things in the past and aren't sorry) then you have to give them a reason the reader can understand for those actions. I almost always use humor with my anti-heroes & heroines, and give them some sort of morals, even if those morals are pretty backwards. For example, they may torture and kill innocent strangers for profit, but are loyal to the death to their friends and family.

I also usually set anti-heroes/heroines against very evil villains (one of the reasons I tend to write purely bad villains), so they make the hero/heroine look good in comparison.

[Oddsocks]

I agree with Hope to the Horizon about giving them some kind of redeeming qualities. I don't tend to write characters like this - my heroes generally are pretty good (I usually go the other way, setting good protagonists against good antagonists), but I know when I'm reading that if there's no redeeming feature to the protagonists, or even if there is but there's some really nasty element to them that I can't get past (i.e. Thomas Covenant), I'll stop reading.

I think there's probably a trick to writing people who aren't great and who we wouldn't want to know in real life, and still getting teh readers to attach to them. Just not sure what that trick is.

[otterman]

You might want to give the MC a different reason to care about something or someone that will make him an unlikely ally. His motivation might make him a disagreeable protagonist but the reader will still take his side. As the work progresses, you could work on building sympathy for the MC or even have him changed by events in the story so we end up kind of liking him. Sometimes the best characters are ones who we originally dislike but, when trouble stirs, we're glad they're there. R.A. Salvatore emlpoys MCs like this.

[Higgins]

Most of my stories involve anti-heroes/heroines, so I really should have a good answer to this, but I'm not entirely sure how I do it, lol. You have to give the hero/heroine some redeeming qualities, some reason for the audience to like them, and if they do 'bad' things (or have done a lot of bad things in the past and aren't sorry) then you have to give them a reason the reader can understand for those actions. I almost always use humor with my anti-heroes & heroines, and give them some sort of morals, even if those morals are pretty backwards. For example, they may torture and kill innocent strangers for profit, but are loyal to the death to their friends and family.

I also usually set anti-heroes/heroines against very evil villains (one of the reasons I tend to write purely bad villains), so they make the hero/heroine look good in comparison.

This is so odd. I start my heroes as villains (really an obvious move these days, I think), but they aren't very loyal and they just don't like torturing and killing strangers so they end up being a bit heroic, though the other characters don't mind making it obvious that they have to make an effort to put up with the MC at all.

[J. R. Tomlin]

Again I have to recommend Carey's The Sundering. :)

You have to read it to understand what I mean.

[oscuridad]

thanks folks - loads fo really good ideas and a lot to think about.

thanks again

[jerrymouse]

flashman

[Shadow_Ferret]

I'm old-fashioned. I like my heroes to be heroes, the worst I do is make them reluctant heroes. They didn't want to be there, they didn't want to get involved, they would have rather been enjoying a beer in a hammock, but circumstance beyond their control forced them into the hero situation.

[Hummingbird]

Um.. This isn't a book, but something I think of with a villian-like hero, is The Chronicles of Riddick. Riddick is awesome, but he does things on his terms and for his reasons. :D

[arodriguez]

Your character, although he will have despicable traits, must be likeable. He may be a womanizer, but does he keep his promises? he may be a murderer, but does he only kill bad guys? He could be card cheating, bar brawling, brute, but he might have a a son that he is putting through college with every penney he's ever earned.
No matter what your questionable hero has done, or will do, the reader has to root for him. If he is going to rob a bank, what's the motive? Is it to help a crippled next door neighbor or to buy a new playstation 3? these are things uyou have to consider.

[Hummingbird]

Is it to help the crippled next door neighbor steal a Playstation 3? Sorry, I thought that's what Arodriguez wrote at first and I had to re-read it. :D

I agree, you have to be able to root for them about something. Maybe some high person is a jerk and doesn't care enough about security, so the hero decides to show him what the security is lacking by getting through it. Or the hero knows someone is plotting to kill someone and the only way to stop it is through some major named people. :)

[Stacia Kane]

Vic Mackey in The Shield. Cop on the take. Cheats on his wife. Believes strongly in excessive force. But you root for him, absolutely, because everything he does he believes is the right thing, and he does it to try and protect the innocent.

Seriously, watch The Shield. No matter what you think of Mackey in the beginning, the minute he picks up that phone book in the very first episode you are firmly on his side. (You'll have to watch to know what I mean.)

[oscuridad]

thanks - I will have to look at the Sheild - I don't think it has aired over here (at least I haven't seen it). Another slant - could you make a hero our of a VAT man (IRS Man being a US equivalent, I would guess)?

[arodriguez]

Is it to help the crippled next door neighbor steal a Playstation 3? Sorry, I thought that's what Arodriguez wrote at first and I had to re-read it. :D

:)

thats what i should have wrote.

[Roanoke]

make a number of the societies elements very disagreeable but make them normal there and have him rebel against those, that should help people relate to him.
Also you could make him a sympathetic character and give him a very good reason for being like he is, or put something out of his control, like how he was was raised, that is make him a victim, but don't let him realize it.

[Theognome]

I recall the hero in The Thomas Covenant Series was like that- very unlikeable. In my own current wip, the MC is also very unlikeable and difficult to relate to. I used a supporting character that is very expressive to balance this. The SC provides comic relief while softening the edges of the MC through their relationship.

Theognome

[Stacia Kane]

thanks - I will have to look at the Sheild - I don't think it has aired over here (at least I haven't seen it). Another slant - could you make a hero our of a VAT man (IRS Man being a US equivalent, I would guess)?

They were showing it for a while, I think on the Living Channel--but they have the DVDs at Tesco too (at least at our local Tesco) or Amazon UK.


And sure, you could make a hero out of a tax man. Is he a tax man on the take, or honest? Does he have a solid conviction that his work helps people? Does he do something else in his spare time that makes him heroic, and his job is just a job (don't forget, Indiana Jones=a teacher, when he's not having adventures.)

[rugcat]

Vic Mackey in The Shield. Cop on the take. Cheats on his wife. Believes strongly in excessive force. But you root for him, absolutely, because everything he does he believes is the right thing, and he does it to try and protect the innocent.Oh come now. I won't list examples because of spoilers, but Vic Mackey is not a good guy.

However, I still root for him. Part of that is because of the incredibly complex,three dimensional character the writers have created. A lot of it is because Michael Chiklis ' acting is so extraordinary.

And speaking of which, Forrest Whittaker's turn as I A cop Kavanaugh was some of the most compelling and believable character acting I've ever seen.

[Stacia Kane]

Oh come now. I won't list examples because of spoilers, but Vic Mackey is not a good guy.

However, I still root for him. Part of that is because of the incredibly complex,three dimensional character the writers have created. A lot of it is because Michael Chiklis ' acting is so extraordinary.



But that's my point. No, he's not a good guy, but we're still on his side, because of his humanity.

[LadyA]

Sorry, I know it's an old thread but I wanted to ask:

If you have a likeable MC and near the end, as he slowly goes mad, he reveals that during a hostage situation, as a terrified 16-yr-old, he killed his best friend (he was drugged and the kidnapper had a gun to his head/or tortured him, not quite sure which), would you still root for him/like him?

ETA: The kidnapper had hinted he could go free - getting the MC to murder his friend was preferred by the kidnapper as that would be the ultimate revenge - of the two boys that he had always hated, one would be dead, killed by his own best friend, and the other would know that he killed his best friend for the rest of his life.

[sunandshadow]

I've had a few occasions where I described to someone a concept of a story I had come up with, and they took a strong dislike to the main character (who I did not think of as a villain and found likable). I had to investigate a bit more to figure out why the main character was coming across as unlikable. It turned out that I had described her actions in the plot, which were manipulative and sneaky, but I had not described her appealing personality and sympathetic motives.

[Kartys]

I'm old-fashioned. I like my heroes to be heroes, the worst I do is make them reluctant heroes. They didn't want to be there, they didn't want to get involved, they would have rather been enjoying a beer in a hammock, but circumstance beyond their control forced them into the hero situation.

I agree completely. I enjoy my heroes. I want them to be generally good people. They aren't perfect, they make mistakes and can really screw things up in a story but they have general goodness in them.

That isn't to say I don't read "bad" heroes - They just aren't my preferred cup of tea. If I do read a "bad" hero story I want it to be a redemption type of deal, where in the end they come out as a much better person than they started.

[Little Ming]

Sorry, I know it's an old thread but I wanted to ask:

If you have a likeable MC and near the end, as he slowly goes mad, he reveals that during a hostage situation, as a terrified 16-yr-old, he killed his best friend (he was drugged and the kidnapper had a gun to his head/or tortured him, not quite sure which), would you still root for him/like him?

ETA: The kidnapper had hinted he could go free - getting the MC to murder his friend was preferred by the kidnapper as that would be the ultimate revenge - of the two boys that he had always hated, one would be dead, killed by his own best friend, and the other would know that he killed his best friend for the rest of his life.

Probably would have been better if you started a new thread. ;)

But to answer your question, it all depends on how you present this. Is he still suffering from what happened? Has he completely forgotten about it? And what was he like for the beginning of the story? Did he give him enough sympathy points at the beginning before you revealed this? Is you character likeable enough? Interesting enough?

Personally, I don't have a problem with "difficult heroes." I just want MCs who are interesting, they don't have to be real "heroes" or even likeable.

I have three MCs in my current WIP. They are, respectively, a child rapist, a mass murderer, and a soon-to-be mass murderer. All of them are involved in separate plots to murder the rest of their family members so they can take sole ownership of the family business. They make no apologizes for their actions, it's just what they do. And I love them. :evil

[MarlynnOfMany]

I agree that it depends on how you play it. If you don't want people to like the character after this revelation, then have him show very little guilt for what he's done. But if we're meant to still like him, then have him feel like most of us would -- wracked with guilt / trying to forget about it / trying to redeem himself somehow. It could even be a turning point where he opens up more to another character, being more honest and likable than ever before as he admits to it.

[JSDR]

You might have to tread carefully with how you portray the MC if you're going to have a reveal near the end of the book. I think it's much easier to twist affection into dislike than the other way around. You basically build a sense of trust with the reader when you cast favorable light on a person - a spotlight, if you will. Revealing something sordid from the MC's past can be a violation of that trust, and it might be tricky to craft the sympathy you want for him at the end of the book.

[Miguelito]

Voice is important. Thugs that are very good anti-heroes include Takeshi Kovacs of Altered Carbon and its sequels and Avery Cates of The Electric Church and its sequels.

Voice has alot to do with it. Both authors (Richard Morgan and Jeff Somers, respectively) have great senses of black humor, which "lifts" the mood when dealing with some pretty terrible people. Plus, even though they're thugs, the characters have somewhat of a code of ethics they follow and can be considered honorable in their own ways (even though you'd never want to step in a room with either of the two). Even Dexter has the Code of Harry.

Also, good anti-heroes will likely have some sympathetic backgrounds and qualities, even if they're nasty people. Takeshi Kovacs is a super-soldier who, when he leaves the military, is banned from holding any public office or any real means of having a good livelihood, so he has to turn to crime. Avery Cates lives in a world where the average male doesn't live past 40 years of age and, if you're not in the right social class, doomed to a life of abject poverty, so crime is also about the only way to earn a living.

So, I guess voice, some code, and some sympathetic characteristics and backgrounds are important.