Another serial comma question

SpiderGal · Nov 12, 2007

Are we allowed to insert serial commas before dependent clauses?

For instance, is the following sentence correct?

I am really serious this time out, and won't quit before the job is done.

won't quit before the job is done is a dependent clause, right?

If the sentence was--I am really serious this time out, and I won't quit before the job is done-- that would be right, of course, but what about the earlier version?

FennelGiraffe · Nov 12, 2007

SpiderGal said:
I am really serious this time out, and won't quit before the job is done.

I think that's a compound predicate, not a dependent clause, so it shouldn't have the comma.

It's also not a serial comma. If there were three parts--"I am really serious this time, know what I need to do, and won't quit"--then it would be a serial comma question.

ResearchGuy · Nov 12, 2007

SpiderGal said:
Are we allowed to insert serial commas before dependent clauses?

For instance, is the following sentence correct?

I am really serious this time out, and won't quit before the job is done.

won't quit before the job is done is a dependent clause, right? . . .

It is an independent clause with an implied subject, "I." At least it is if you use the comma. But without the comma, well, frankly I am not sure what one calls it, but the subject of both verbs (am and won't) is the pronoun I. (Simplifying the sentence: "I am serious and won't quit.") Diagramming might help to illustrate.

In dialogue, to use or omit the comma reflects the writer's intent regarding how the sentence is spoken by the character--with or without the pause after "out." In other words, it would be the writer's call, and might be something to be argued with an editor.* I suspect that it might be better to insert the implied "I" so the sentence reads, "I am really serious this time out, and I won't quit before the job is done." But the comma would still be the writer's call as to whether or not there was a pause. If it is not dialogue, then the comma should be included.

My views, FWIW.

In any event, it is definitely not a serial comma. That is a whole different issue. Here is a very simple example of a serial comma:

I went to the store and bought flour, sugar, and raisins.

The comma after "sugar" is the serial comma. Strunk & White and the Chicago Manual of Style say to use it. AP says to omit it. Small wars have been fought over that dispute. But it is not the point you were actually raising.

*"In other words, it would be the writer's call, and might be something to be argued with an editor." The implied subject of "be" in the second part of the sentence is "it": "In other words, it would be the writer's call, and it might be something to be argued with an editor."

--Ken

maestrowork · Nov 12, 2007

There should be no comma.

Deleted member 42 · Nov 12, 2007

Heh.

It's not a serial comma, since it isn't a series.

The comma isn't necessary, but it isn't wrong, either. It's especially not wrong if it's in dialog.

It's an example of zeugma, if, you know, anyone was wondering .. .

Doctor Shifty · Nov 12, 2007

I'm with those who say the comma should not be there. (More emphatic than 'isn't necessary)

And I'm against those who say that commas illustrate pauses in dialogue.

Commas are formal bits of stuff that are to do with sentence structure. We can pause in all sorts of places in a sentence for different reasons, but structuring the pauses with commas is bad practice. It's the equivalent of putting emphasis in bold or using italics for when we want a reader to imagine that finger signal 'quotes here' thing that we see these days.

Soap box, mode, off.

Must be time I mowed the lawn or something.

You have a sentence that makes sense without the comma because the 'and' does what you need it to do. It also works without the comma when you have the 'I' in both places.

SpiderGal · Nov 12, 2007

Thanks guys! It's clear to me now-- it shouldn't be there! Oh, and sorry for calling it a serial comma. I posted this thread around midnight. So there.

Bufty · Nov 13, 2007

That may not be the prime function of a comma, but it is one of its functions. On occasion, if a pause is not put in the right place, the sentence meaning can be quite different.

Doctor Shifty said:
And I'm against those who say that commas illustrate pauses in dialogue.

SpiderGal · Nov 13, 2007

maestrowork said:
There should be no comma.

I am getting irritated now.

I just found this sentence on a reputed pub's (Christian Science Monitor) site:

Pitch should be a paragraph or two at most, and always come as e-mail.

This is a similar situation, but they put in that comma.

Huh.

mscelina · Nov 13, 2007

*tiptoes into the comma fray*

I tend to use commas to indicate pauses. I like the thought that my books might be read aloud by someone other than me and I wield grammar like an actor so I will upon occasion insert that indicator for the reader to take a breath because the other option is a really really long sentence that is impossible to read without stopping at some point in order to breathe.

*grin*

Then again, I'm not particularly fond of the run-on sentence either...

Bufty · Nov 13, 2007

I would understand both sentences perfectly without that comma.

I think it's simply a case of someone who doesn't know any better gone mad and decided that every time one has an 'and' or a 'but' it has to be preceded by a comma. Nonsense.

SpiderGal said:
I am getting irritated now.

I just found this sentence on a reputed pub's (Christian Science Monitor) site:

Pitch should be a paragraph or two at most, and always come as e-mail.

This is a similar situation, but they put in that comma.

Huh.

SpiderGal · Nov 13, 2007

That second sentence was mine.

SpiderGal · Nov 13, 2007

It's annoying when you spot these mistakes on reputed sites.

Bufty · Nov 13, 2007

Ah. Yes.

I assumed that particular one was a typo. :Hug2:

SpiderGal said:
That second sentence was mine.

SpiderGal · Nov 13, 2007

I meant this one: This is a similar situation, but they put in that comma.

Is the comma incorrect?

Bufty · Nov 13, 2007

I know. To me it's neither wrong nor right. I understand the sentence perfectly in context with or without the comma. And I pause at the comma, too. I certainly don't lose any sleep whatsoever over it either way.

SpiderGal said:
I meant this one: This is a similar situation, but they put in that comma.

Is the comma incorrect?

job · Nov 13, 2007

SpiderGal said:
I meant this one: This is a similar situation, but they put in that comma.

Is the comma incorrect?

You have independent clauses joined by a conjunction. Chicago Manual of Style says a comma usually precedes the conjunction in such cases. Where the clauses are short, (as they are here,) the comma may be omitted.

Doctor Shifty · Nov 15, 2007

Bufty said:
That may not be the prime function of a comma, but it is one of its functions. On occasion, if a pause is not put in the right place, the sentence meaning can be quite different.

Quote:Originally Posted by Doctor Shifty
And I'm against those who say that commas illustrate pauses in dialogue.

__________________

I can see we're on a different tack here, but to me the structure of the sentence is one of the skills of communication.

My argument against commas to indicate pauses shows up when people try, for example, to put deliberation or emphasis into sentences. Let's imagine that a writer wants to indicate very didactic dialogue with lots of emphasis in the character's delivery.

For example -
That may not be, the prime function, of a comma, but it is one, of its functions.

I suspect that all these commas don't do what the writer intends.

On the other hand, I'm prepared to be the only one who finds such form distracting. Too many sentences like this and I would grow weary of the book.

Bufty · Nov 15, 2007

Placing a comma in such a way that a particular sentence means exactly what it is intended to mean is structure. It is also communicating clearly.

Comma usage purely to indicate where every breath or pause is supposed to be drawn is wrong and I am not in any way advocating that.

But one cannot ignore the fact that insertion of a comma to indicate a pause, can clarify the meaning of a sentence if, say, an alternative interpretation is available were the comma omitted.

Julie Worth · Nov 15, 2007

SpiderGal said:
I am really serious this time out, and won't quit before the job is done.

The presence or absence of a comma is often determined by the effect you're trying to achieve. So, to take a sentence in isolation and say it should punctuated one way or the other can be misleading. Especially in dialogue or first person narrative, where characters are allowed to speak ungrammatically. My tendency is to use very few commas, as I want the reader to just fly along.

J. R. Tomlin · Nov 16, 2007

job said:
You have independent clauses joined by a conjunction. Chicago Manual of Style says a comma usually precedes the conjunction in such cases. Where the clauses are short, (as they are here,) the comma may be omitted.

That does not apply since it was not an independent clause.

It is a compound predicate. For ease of posting, I'll reference the excellent Purdue University site on grammar.

13. Don't put a comma between the two verbs or verb phrases in a compound predicate.

And here is the link. http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/grammar/g_comma.html

And here are two examples from the Purdue University site about how not to do it.

We laid out our music and snacks, and began to study. (incorrect)
I turned the corner, and ran smack into a patrol car. (incorrect)

And if you don't know what a predicate is, I once more recommend the Purdue University site which explains this as well in another section.

job · Nov 16, 2007

J. R. Tomlin said:
That does not apply since it was not an independent clause.

Ah ...
So confusing here.
We have wandered all over the place in this thread.

Here is the quote at the top of my posting

SpiderGal said:
I meant this one: This is a similar situation, but they put in that comma.

Is the comma incorrect?

The sentence I discussed is:

This is a similar situation, but they put in that comma.

Earlier, the OP certainly did offer a sentence with a compound predicate,
but the sentence I was talking about has two independent clauses and two separate predicates.

I'm not absolutely certain SpiderGal was asking about that sentence, you understand ...
We all post somewhat incoherently late at night.
But that's the sentence I was discussing.

The OWL site is an excellent one for grammar. I join you in recommending it.

J. R. Tomlin · Nov 16, 2007

Sorry. You're right that I got confused about what sentence was being referred to. That one does indeed need a comma.

job · Nov 17, 2007

J. R. Tomlin said:
Sorry. You're right that I got confused about what sentence was being referred to. That one does indeed need a comma.

It's exactly the kind of little slip up I make myself. And if I had been responding to the OP, good advice.

I love the OWL site because it is so logically organized, easy to read, and authoritative. A beautiful job.

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