Fantasy without magic?

Simple Living · Nov 8, 2007

I enjoy reading fantasy but I've been away from the genre for awhile.

I know there must be some fantasy books out there that are written without using magic in them. Can anyone recall any of them?

Zelenka · Nov 8, 2007

George R R Martin's 'Song of Fire and Ice' series supposedly has no magic (I say supposedly because I only read that somewhere - haven't actually been able to get into the books themselves).

At the moment I'm reading K.J. Parker's 'Engineer' series and it has no magic as well.

Pthom · Nov 8, 2007

Jacqueline Carey's Kushiel's Dart series has almost no magic.

Greg Bear's Songs of Earth and Power has some very strange events, and few of them are termed "magic" in the book (he uses "power" instead), but they are the result of the place where much of the action occurs, and not due to some conjuring of spells by some wizard or mage.

As one who ordinarily prefers science fiction to fantasy, I am not enthused about reading fantasies where magic is the predominant plot element, or where it is a requirement for the success of the main character's quest. Such stories as the King Arthur legends (with Merlin), Lord of the Rings, etc, fall into that category for me.

It occurs to me that a fantasy about mystical happenings, strange and unexplained events or creatures, and the like, which cannot be explained in some scientific or even quasi-scientific way, involve magic in some fashion. On the other hand, stories set in alternative realities, worlds, histories, are certainly included in the genre "Fantasy" (some are included in the genre "Science Fiction" too, but not so much).

Simple Living · Nov 8, 2007

Thanks for the suggestions, Jess. I wrote them down and will definitely look for them.

Pthom said:
As one who ordinarily prefers science fiction to fantasy, I am not enthused about reading fantasies where magic is the predominant plot element, or where it is a requirement for the success of the main character's quest. Such stories as the King Arthur legends (with Merlin), Lord of the Rings, etc, fall into that category for me.

I prefer fantasy to science fiction, myself. I just can't get into outer space, aliens, Star Wars, Star Trek, and scientific formulas. I'm reading Ender's Game right now, though, and enjoying it thoroughly so far.

I get what you're saying. There is such a thing as too much magic. I think I'm there. It's great, but it just seems so overly used lately. After Ender's Game, I'd like to settle down with a nice fantasy book that doesn't involve casting spells and using magic to explain everything.

I appreciate the suggestions. Keep 'em coming.

mscelina · Nov 8, 2007

I've repeatedly touted Jacqueline Carey and her Kushiel's series. I'm a reader who likes magic in fantasy, but her writing and world-building are so extraordinary that I really didn't care.

FennelGiraffe · Nov 8, 2007

Try Charlie Stross's Merchant Princes series (The Family Trade, etc.). There's one very important plot element that could be viewed as a type of magic, but it's strictly limited in scope -- it only does one specific thing. Other than that, there isn't a drop of magic anywhere.

ETA: Unlike his other books, it isn't really SF, either.

TomoeMichieru · Nov 8, 2007

What about ki/chi/etc?

Pthom · Nov 8, 2007

Simple Living said:
I prefer fantasy to science fiction, myself. I just can't get into outer space, aliens, Star Wars, Star Trek, and scientific formulas.

Just as not all fantasy must include magic, sorcerers, dragons or medieval settings, not all science fiction must be about space, have aliens, or scientific formulae. William Gibson writes some amazing techno noir about various futures on Earth (virtually anything written by him). Greg Bear writes about genetic or bio engineering, evolution, (Blood Music, Darwin's Radio, / Slant) in addition to his most excellent stories that take place in space (Eon, Forge of God), but have little in common with space opera. And I challenge you to read Vernor Vinge's A Deepness in the Sky, Octavia Butler's Xenogenesis or Harry Harrison's Stainless Steel Rat and not enjoy them for imaginative settings, intrigue, humor, and how each story has a different take on humans dealing not just with aliens, but with situations that often are beyond the control of the characters.

otterman · Nov 8, 2007

If all goes well, I'll have one for you in a few months. I've read George R.R. Martin and he is very impressive. He creates a world of medieval knights and kingdoms that is truly amazing. My only criticism is that the plot can move slowly at times. In truth though, I would argue that any fantasy has magic to some degree. It is a spell cast by imagination.

waylander · Nov 8, 2007

There is magic (though unexplained) in GRRM's Song of Fire and Ice.

Guy Gavriel Kay's The Lions of Al-Rasan has no magic at all.

Judg · Nov 8, 2007

You might enjoy some of Ursula LeGuin's science fiction, such as The Left Hand of Darkness. It is heavy on characterization, and light on technobabble. There are aliens, but they are almost exclusively humanoid, essentially all subspecies. (And yes, if you read enough of it, you do get an explanation of sorts.) Unlike Star Trek, Earth is not always leading the show, it's just a fairly minor member of a federation.

badducky · Nov 8, 2007

The classic trilogy with no magic:

"Gormenghast" by Mervyn Peak

Oddsocks · Nov 8, 2007

The Second Sons trilogy by Jennifer Fallon is definitely fantasy and has no magic.

MargueriteMing · Nov 8, 2007

The Kusheil series is amazing. Also take a look at Wave Without a Shore by C J Cherryh. Also, Legend by David Gemmell, doesn't have a lot of magic in it, it's about a huge battle, it's mostly a sword epic.

batgirl · Nov 8, 2007

Swordspoint, and Privilege of the Sword, by Ellen Kushner, are fantasies with no magic.
-Barbara

Simple Living · Nov 8, 2007

MargueriteMing said:
Also, Legend by David Gemmell, doesn't have a lot of magic in it, it's about a huge battle, it's mostly a sword epic.

Ugh, I'll pass on this one. (No offense! Thanks for the referral, though!) I can't stand reading page after page after page of sword fights and battle scenes. I couldn't bear to read LOTR. I had to wait for the films. The Hobbit is one of my all-time favorite books, but LOTR was unbearable to me.

MattW · Nov 8, 2007

Simple Living said:
Ugh, I'll pass on this one. (No offense! Thanks for the referral, though!) I can't stand reading page after page after page of sword fights and battle scenes. I couldn't bear to read LOTR. I had to wait for the films. The Hobbit is one of my all-time favorite books, but LOTR was unbearable to me.

I wouldn't dismiss the Drenai stories as sword epic - the protagonist fight more often with an ax :tongue

Gemmel wrote minimalist heroic fantasy. It's a forlorn siege waged by a nation grasping at it's last glory. Plus, every writer does combat differently - LOTR for me wasn't heart-pounding or suspenseful.

But if battles in general don't do it for you, I'd echo Kushiel series - as long as you don't get squicky about bondage.

Death Wizard · Nov 8, 2007

It's true that George R.R. Martin doesn't have much magic. I love Martin's work, mainly because he's so damn good, but I much prefer fantasy with a lot of magic. Fantasy without magic is like a Marquerita without tequila!

Marian Perera · Nov 8, 2007

Simple Living said:
I know there must be some fantasy books out there that are written without using magic in them. Can anyone recall any of them?

Watership Down, my favorite fantasy novel.

I like magic, but I don't think it's absolutely necessary for a fantasy novel. I have a fantasy in mind - wrote a first draft of it - where the only "magic" is that different sub-species of humans are bred to have different traits. The fantasy part is that this happens in a medieval world, and some of their traits aren't very scientific. No one ever uses the word "magic" in this novel; if someone has fangs, it's because they belong to a particular race, and if someone else can read writing at thirty yards, it's because they belong to another.

Lhun · Nov 9, 2007

TomoeMichieru said:
What about ki/chi/etc?

Just as magic as calling it magik, magick, power, psi or the force. Changing the name doesn't make it any less magical.

J. R. Tomlin · Nov 9, 2007

JessRamage said:
George R R Martin's 'Song of Fire and Ice' series supposedly has no magic (I say supposedly because I only read that somewhere - haven't actually been able to get into the books themselves).

At the moment I'm reading K.J. Parker's 'Engineer' series and it has no magic as well.

GRR Martin's books do have magic, just less than many other fantasies.

The whole bondage thing in Kusiel's Dart was stomach turning for me. There's plenty of this in the real world. Women are killed and abused and sold into sexual slavery around the world. I'm not going to read fantasy for it, and this in spite of the fact that I like Carey's writing otherwise. (However, I love her Sundering duology. It's not low magic though.)

MilesZ · Nov 9, 2007

What about a fantasy book with just technology? I think medievel books taking place in fictional landscapes are the types without magic.

Shadow_Ferret · Nov 9, 2007

TomoeMichieru said:
What about ki/chi/etc?

Lhun said:
Just as magic as calling it magik, magick, power, psi or the force. Changing the name doesn't make it any less magical.

I totally disagree. They aren't magic at all. It's a form of natural energy we all have. When practicing Tai Chi and such, I'm working my chi.

J. R. Tomlin · Nov 9, 2007

Simple Living said:
Ugh, I'll pass on this one. (No offense! Thanks for the referral, though!) I can't stand reading page after page after page of sword fights and battle scenes. I couldn't bear to read LOTR. I had to wait for the films. The Hobbit is one of my all-time favorite books, but LOTR was unbearable to me.

Pardon me if I'm confused, but you don't like magic AND you don't like fighting. Is there something about fantasy you do like? LOL

I find the way ki/chi/etc. are generally presented in books to be nothing more than another word for magic, whether one may work on it or not in real life.

Lhun · Nov 9, 2007

Shadow_Ferret said:
I totally disagree. They aren't magic at all. It's a form of natural energy we all have. When practicing Tai Chi and such, I'm working my chi.

Well that's nice for you if it helps you keep fit. But there's is nothing real about it besides some of the things attributed to Ki being simple mechanics, ways to utilize breathing, leverage and your muscles for maximum effect. Besides that though, most of the Ki/Chi stuff is total bunk. And unlike things like acupuncture, which has shown some results despite a completely wrong working theory behind it (as evidenced by trials which show that randomly sticking needles in people can produce much the same results as going with the spots chosen by acupuncturists), Ki/Chi as used by "martial" artists and many of the general mysticism woo-crowd is nothing but a fantasy. A nice exotic far-eastern fantasy, but fantasy nonetheless.

Fantasy without magic?

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