Pros and Cons of Small Presses?

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JoNightshade

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I have some questions about small presses and I'm not sure where to get started except for... here! (If anyone knows of a better spot and can point me in the right direction, let me know.)

I'm wondering:

1) If I publish a book with a reputable small press, will this help or harm my chances of getting an agent (for another manuscript) in the future? Will they see me as someone on the way up, or as a "small press author" who will languish in obscurity?

2) If my book is published by a small press and doesn't sell record numbers, are large publishers going to be more reluctant to look at my other books (presumably represented by an agent)?

3) Where can I go on the web to find a listing of reputable small presses?
 

Jersey Chick

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I don't know how much help I'll be, but here goes...

1) If I publish a book with a reputable small press, will this help or harm my chances of getting an agent (for another manuscript) in the future? Will they see me as someone on the way up, or as a "small press author" who will languish in obscurity?

I don't see the harm, necessarily, because it's a solid writing credit. A lot of Names wrote for, and still write for, small presses. Someone else may correct me, but I think it's a plus if it's a reputable small press.

2) If my book is published by a small press and doesn't sell record numbers, are large publishers going to be more reluctant to look at my other books (presumably represented by an agent)?
I'm no expert, but I don't think anyone expects a small press to sell record numbers. There are some who can and do, probably, but as their print runs tend to be a lot smaller, it's got to be difficult. That said, if you sold a solid book to a small press and it didn't set those records, but set what is considered average for that niche, again I don't think it'll hurt you in the long run.

3) Where can I go on the web to find a listing of reputable small presses?
Depends on what you're looking for - epub/small press, or indie small press. For epub/small press (i.e, Samhain) - there's Piers Anthony's site. EPIC lists their publishers. And of course, Preditors and Editors. For strictly print pubs, I don't really know, but someone else might come along who does.

There is a thread here listing publishers - from the big boys down to the small pubs. Check in the Bewares and Background Checks forum.

I hope this helped at least a little!

Good luck:D
 

Madison

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To be honest, I wonder about the first two myself. But I can answer the second - http://www.agentquery.com/publishing_ip.aspx - a list of reputable presses. Also, just google 'small press' and you may find some listings. Make sure to check all of them with bewares and background check at AW. Good luck!

And I have a question for you, myself - how on earth did you ever find 105 agents to sub?!?!?!?! I am amazed!
 

JoNightshade

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To be honest, I wonder about the first two myself. But I can answer the second - http://www.agentquery.com/publishing_ip.aspx - a list of reputable presses. Also, just google 'small press' and you may find some listings. Make sure to check all of them with bewares and background check at AW. Good luck!

And I have a question for you, myself - how on earth did you ever find 105 agents to sub?!?!?!?! I am amazed!

Querytracker.com. Well, they have essentially the same listings as agentquery (which I didn't know had small presses listed, thanks!)... but basically I just searched for all agents who rep mainstream fiction. My book is kinda... well, let's say that's the only category it would fit in, so I just sent queries to all of them. Well, except the ones I looked at that obviously wouldn't want my book for one reason or another.

Actually I'm thinking about a small press for another manuscript, not the one I'm currently querying. One agent has the full right now but if she doesn't accept it I'm kinda at the end of that rope. Everyone agrees that they like it and that the writing is good, but that it isn't particularly marketable. I figured maybe I'd have more luck with a small press. But I don't want to do it if it's going to hurt my chances with my current mss.
 

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I really think you go with a small press if it is the best choice for that manuscript. Any effect on later manuscirpts is likely to be small and idiosyncratic.
 

jclarkdawe

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I have some questions about small presses and I'm not sure where to get started except for... here! (If anyone knows of a better spot and can point me in the right direction, let me know.)

I'm wondering:

1) If I publish a book with a reputable small press, will this help or harm my chances of getting an agent (for another manuscript) in the future? It's a good reason for looking for an agent. The numbers for many small presses are below the profit level needed by an agent, but they'll see that you've learned how to write a "professional" quality book. Will they see me as someone on the way up, or as a "small press author" who will languish in obscurity? On one or two books, you won't have enough of a track record for anyone to tell.

2) If my book is published by a small press and doesn't sell record numbers, are large publishers going to be more reluctant to look at my other books (presumably represented by an agent)? I doubt it.

3) Where can I go on the web to find a listing of reputable small presses? Writer's digest.

EQUINE LIABILITY was published by a small press. I'll tell you there are some big advantages being published by a small press for your first book. My book was the only book coming out when it did, so I had a lot of attention by the editor. She had the time to help me work through problems, and the time to listen to my concerns.

She wasn't buried with work, since I was THE major project at the time. She had the time to teach me editing and tightening. I never felt like she was overwhelmed for time. We could really discuss what I wanted compared to what she needed.

Although I had negotiated additional time for editing into my contract, I never needed it. Since she was focused on my book, we were really able to develop a flow back and forth on editing that was wonderful. Editing my book was easier than editing some of my articles.

The downside was the limited distribution. I probably would have gotten more sales with a larger publisher. But the smaller sales are consistent with the size of the press. I think anyone in the publishing industry would be aware of it.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe
 

wayndom

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If a small press wants to publish you and no one else does, the question becomes, do you want to get published or not?

If a big press wants to publish you, I can't imagine why you'd want to go with a small one.

But don't get the wrong idea -- big publishers publish books with small print runs and no backing. I know. I was published in hardbound by Thomas Dunne (St. Martin's Press) with a small print run and no publicity/advertising whatsoever, so the book didn't do any better than a small press publication.

Also, small presses are not desperate for material, and hence are no less picky than big ones. If you're published by a reputable publisher, big or small, it carries weight in the publishing world.

I think you may be getting too caught up in counting your chickens before the hen has laid any eggs...
 

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I sold my book to Mundania Press LLC, and so far I have been very impressed with them. Although I haven't had any experience with major publishers, it seems that the terms of my contract are similar to what I would get elsewhere (minus the advance). Furthermore, they have been very good in providing me with information on how to promote my book, connecting me with their author network, and answering questions about distribution, etc.

I submitted to them because I had gotten so frustrated with the limited (some might say non-existant) number of major publishers who would accept un-agented subs and because Mudania was rated as 'recommended' by SFWA. (They are not a vanity press, and you must submit material just as you would any other market.)

Like I said, thus far I am very pleased :)
 

spacejock2

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I'm with a small press and couldn't be happier. I get plenty of attention, they're always happy to go the extra mile and it feels like we're all on the same team. They're funded by the Western Australian government & arts council, which means they can focus on developing authors and not just the bottom line. (Still important to make money, of course, but they can be more patient than a mega corp with lots of shareholders itching for higher returns.)

One thing to look for: distribution. Who distributes their books, which chains do they reach, are their books on the shelves where people can buy them? If a small press only lists titles with online booksellers then I'd look elsewhere.
 

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One thing to look for: distribution. Who distributes their books, which chains do they reach, are their books on the shelves where people can buy them? If a small press only lists titles with online booksellers then I'd look elsewhere.

This is probably one of the most important considerations.

Tri
 

Joe Moore

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Hey, Jo,
"Small press" is a term often used to describe publishers with annual sales below a certain level. In the U.S., most consider the level to be $50 million after returns and discounts. Small presses are also defined as those that publish an average of less than 10 titles per year although there are exceptions.

If I publish a book with a reputable small press, will this help or harm my chances of getting an agent (for another manuscript) in the future? Will they see me as someone on the way up, or as a "small press author" who will languish in obscurity?

Literary agents deal with any size press that gets results for their authors.

2) If my book is published by a small press and doesn't sell record numbers, are large publishers going to be more reluctant to look at my other books (presumably represented by an agent)?
There are many factors besides sales numbers that attract attention for an author. For example, if you had a modest print run of 5k with Acme Small Press but your sell-through was 90% (percentage of units shipped and paid for), you would have no problem impressing an agent or larger publisher. You might have a problem leaving Acme because they would want you to stay by offering you better deals, bigger advances, and more co-op.

My publisher (Midnight Ink) is technically a small press. They are an imprint of Llewellyn Worldwide which is a 100-year-old pub, but the imprint is small, only a couple dozen authors. The advantage is closer contact and personal service. I can pick up the phone and talk to my editor or publicist at will. A disadvantage is that they are outside of New York and don't capture the prestige of the NY brand. But my NY agent has no problem dealing with them. Hope this helps. Good luck.
 

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I think small press isn't a tightly defined word. I wouldn't consider an imprint of a large press a small press. My main press puts out about 10 title every week or two, but I would consider them small (upper-middle small).
 

Will Lavender

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Along the same lines, I'm curious as to what's considered a small, medium and large print run? I realize this will be different from publisher to publisher and author to author, but am curious if anyone has some general figures.

Just a guess here, but I'd say if you're looking at print runs from big houses, I'd say a 25-30K first printing for a first novel is small; a 50-75K first printing is modest; a 100K+ first printing is large. You see well-established authors with 500K first printings, or 1 million first printings, but it's a pretty well-known fact that (a) those numbers are a bit manufactured and (b) they end up remaindered a lot of the time, as the object is to pack as many books in the bookstore as possible so the consumer thinks, "Wow, look at how many copies of that book there are on the table. That must be a major book."
 

job

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1) If I publish a book with a reputable small press, will this help or harm my chances of getting an agent (for another manuscript) in the future? Will they see me as someone on the way up, or as a "small press author" who will languish in obscurity?

As others have said, a publishing credential is good.

At worst it shows determination and the ability to construct a full manuscript.
At best, it's a hidden gem that will impress the agent. She'll wish you'd come to her first. She'll be hungry to see your second work.

Among 'small presses', however, there's a lot of variation.
Some small presses add to your street cred; some make the agent roll her eyes and sigh.

You've probably already thought of this, but my advice would be to look at their work. before you sign. Many e-presses post excerpts online.

You want a press putting out work you respect.


2) If my book is published by a small press and doesn't sell record numbers, are large publishers going to be more reluctant to look at my other books (presumably represented by an agent)??

Absolutely not. Folks in publishing understand small press numbers. Five thousand books can be a hollow failure for Penguin and a huge success for a childrens' book about Ontario.


3) Where can I go on the web to find a listing of reputable small presses?

Do the books like Writer's Marketplace and Hermann's Guide handle these?
 
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maestrowork

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1) If I publish a book with a reputable small press, will this help or harm my chances of getting an agent (for another manuscript) in the future? Will they see me as someone on the way up, or as a "small press author" who will languish in obscurity?

A legit credit is an asset. Don't forget, John Grisham's first book was published by a small press (however, he did have an agent). Many best-selling authors started with small presses. Any publishers or agents who see these writers as "small time authors" are not worth your salt anyway.

And yes, there are different kinds of small presses. Check their reputations, their publication records, their business models -- do they get trade reviews (Publisher's Weekly, Kirkus, Library Journal, New York Times, etc.), do they offer discounts and returns, etc. A few legitimate literary awards won't hurt either. Not all small publishers are created equal. Do research them as you would an agent.




2) If my book is published by a small press and doesn't sell record numbers, are large publishers going to be more reluctant to look at my other books (presumably represented by an agent)?

Like someone said, no one expects small presses to sell 100,000 copies. It's about sell-through, word of mouth, reviews, awards, etc. Everything adds to your credibility.


3) Where can I go on the web to find a listing of reputable small presses?

Writer's Market? Predators&Editors?

I'm with a small press and I'm very happy with them so far. It's like the debate about "big corporation" vs. "small companies." They all have pros and cons and it really depends on what you want to get out of it, what suits you/your work best, and where you want to take your career.
 
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Joe Moore

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Don't forget, John Grisham's first book was published by a small press.
You’re right, Grisham’s first book, A TIME TO KILL, was published by Wynwood Press (now out of business) with a 5k first run. Book two, THE FIRM, was picked up by Doubleday. Another notable example is Tom Clancy’s first novel, THE HUNT FOR RED OCTOBER, published by the Naval Institute Press. He was snatched by Putnam with number two, RED STORM RISING. Both started with small presses and went on to stardom. Good luck.
 

JoNightshade

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Thanks everyone! Your answers were really helpful. I definitely have a better idea of this now. And I feel better about going that route. :)
 

David I

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Just a guess here, but I'd say if you're looking at print runs from big houses, I'd say a 25-30K first printing for a first novel is small; a 50-75K first printing is modest; a 100K+ first printing is large. You see well-established authors with 500K first printings, or 1 million first printings, but it's a pretty well-known fact that (a) those numbers are a bit manufactured and (b) they end up remaindered a lot of the time, as the object is to pack as many books in the bookstore as possible so the consumer thinks, "Wow, look at how many copies of that book there are on the table. That must be a major book."

Ummm, not too sure about your numbers here, especially on the low end. I agree that a hardcover printing of 100k+ for a first novel is "large"--many would say, "laughable", since these are the kinds of books and print runs where the big houses lose millions. (I have a post with some recent figures on industry fuckups; they are instructive.)

There's been inflation since the 70s, no doubt, but Doubleday's first run of Stephen King's debut novel Carrie at 30 k was considered jaw-dropping at the time. (And the advance on his novel was $2,500, about $8,600 in today's money. JK Rowling got a $6,000 advance for the first Harry Potter novel. And John Grisham's agent managed to place his first novel at a small press for a $15,000 advance--probably part of the reason they went belly-up.)

A 25-30 k printing in hardback for a debut author is likely to be remaindered as well. It varies by genre, but in some areas 25 k sales for a debut novelist would be considered breathtaking. There are books with less sales than that which have made it onto the bestseller list (which is largely determined by timing in any case.)

Back to the original thread: Big presses increase your chances of becoming a bestseller. They also may increase your chances of becoming persona non grata; they tend to give up on books and remainder them in minutes if they don't show legs. Like, dude, you are so last week.

Small presses--MacAdam/Cage is a class example--tend to push their backlist on a long-term basis. Sometimes an author gets traction with a book that causes the backlist pick up as well, and overall sales of the sauthor's books rise. In other cases, like MacAdam/Cage's publication of Audrey Niffeneggar's The Time-Traveler's Wife, they produce a major bestseller the first time out. But they do their calculations on a more long-term basis: they can't afford to print a zillion books one week and then pretend those same books (and their author) have leprosy the next week.

It's a gamble. But the fact is--and I'm willing to be educated on this point--I've never known an author who was offered the choice in the first place!
 

maestrowork

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The Time-Traveler's Wife is another good example. Of course, not all small presses end up with a best-seller like that, but it's possible.

And the point on "backlist" is a valid one. Many small presses simply need to push their backlist because of many reasons. And that's good for the author. Sometimes big houses drop a book rather quickly if it doesn't perform within a window of a four to six months. Granted, if they're going to dump $500,000 in a book they would probably market it to death, but there is also a great risk associated with every book they publish.
 
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Will Lavender

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A 25-30 k printing in hardback for a debut author is likely to be remaindered as well. It varies by genre, but in some areas 25 k sales for a debut novelist would be considered breathtaking. There are books with less sales than that which have made it onto the bestseller list (which is largely determined by timing in any case.)

Well, everything's remaindered. I was just pointing out that these huge print runs (500K and up) are usually remaindered in huge volume. But I would assume the publishers don't mind, because they're still turning a solid profit on most of these books.

A quick look at Publishers Weekly "Forward Into Fall" debut novels section (and I only saw this because my book is on the list, which is bizarre because my book doesn't even come out in the fall) shows the print runs for many of these novels. Surprisingly, two or three medium-sized presses had novels with purported print runs of 50,000. Many of the books had 75K print runs. A few had 100K print runs. One or two had 250K print runs. And this was a listing of every notable debut this season.

Of course, these numbers are usually cooked, but a quick glance at this list shows that the big houses seem to be trying to hit that line of about 50K, and anything under that might be risky.
 
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Will Lavender

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There's been inflation since the 70s, no doubt, but Doubleday's first run of Stephen King's debut novel Carrie at 30 k was considered jaw-dropping at the time.

Interesting.

I was just watching The Hoax, about the Clifford Irving/Howard Hughes scandal, and there's a scene in the movie where Irving (played by Richard Gere) is offerred a 30K first printing for his novel. He scoffs at it and says that the novel might as well not even exist with a printing that small.
 

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Literary agents deal with any size press that gets results for their authors.
Not necessarily true. My agent had refused to submit my book to anything less than the big-time publishers. He said his agency doesn't do that (and it's considered a top-tier agency).

My first book, pubbed a few years ago, is with a very small press. I like what they did, they did a great job with helping with any editing needed. BUT they're so small they didn't/couldn't get the book into any catalogues or get any trade reviews. This, though, didn't deter my agent from offering representation after seeing my ms. for my second book.
 
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