Popish problems.

Ageless Stranger · Nov 7, 2007

I know very little about organised religion (Considered me blessed in this regard) but I'm pretty sure that the pope isn't allowed to have children. Now, if you were reading a story set in another universe, that had a pope with a child, but was clearly a different religion/religious system, would you take issue withit?

donroc · Nov 7, 2007

No issue at all. Read about the Renaissance Popes, Alexander VI (Borgia) for one, who had children.

www.donaldmichaelplatt.com

nessam · Nov 7, 2007

Nope, as long as they don't have to take a vow of abstinence it is almost expected.

Ageless Stranger · Nov 7, 2007

KTC said:
no. Sounds like it's a fantasy. Anything goes. The pope in that world could be six eyed with seven wives and a tuba

A tuba you say?
Interesting. . .

Gillhoughly · Nov 7, 2007

Lots of popes had kids, as did plenty of the clergy through the ages. Not everyone in the Church was a trainwreck, history just tends to notice misbehavior more than the many good-uns who carried their load without a peep.

The not getting married bit had to do with preventing the clergy from leaving their property to the kids rather than to the Church.

You might want to swot up on history before writing alternative world/fantasy works. It will add a huge dimension to any story.

The best history (not necessarily accurate) was written by the gossips of the period. I understand there was no lack of them in any era! They had all the juicy bits on who was sleeping with whom and who stole what from where and how much.

Even the true stuff is hard to believe. (This dude named Tony got the hots for a chick named Cleo and they changed the course of Roman history and by that Western Civilisation? You can't sell that as fiction.)

All in all, we're a rather insane species.

mikeland · Nov 7, 2007

Any time you write about religion, no matter how much distance you put between the story and the real world, you run the risk of someone taking issue with it. But don't let that stop you. Direct hits on organized religion have worked out quite well for some (see Dan Brown and Philip Pullman).

That said, if you set the story in a different universe and are taking pains to distance the religion from Catholicism, why bother calling the character a Pope? If you don't want to raise questions about that specific religious tenet, call the guy the Supreme Poobah and don't worry about it.

Khazarkhum · Nov 7, 2007

Celebacy is one of those things that was not always required in the Catholic Church.

It is not required in the Orthodox Church, for example, although the higher ups are usually unmarried.

Anyways, it's just a title, nothing more.

JamieFord · Nov 7, 2007

(why bother calling the character a Pope? )

That was my thought. If you pose a religion, and then sort of poke fun at its current structure, you might be injecting some unintentional satire or pseudo-religious statement into your book where it might not have been intended.

FennelGiraffe · Nov 7, 2007

mikeland said:
That said, if you set the story in a different universe and are taking pains to distance the religion from Catholicism, why bother calling the character a Pope? If you don't want to raise questions about that specific religious tenet, call the guy the Supreme Poobah and don't worry about it.

My question as well. The title 'Pope' is (or mostly is) specific to Catholicism. Many religions don't have one supreme leader, and the ones that do have a variety of titles for the position. If your religion isn't Catholicism and you don't want to reference Catholicism, why not call him something else?

AnnieColleen · Nov 7, 2007

Ditto the rest; why call him the pope if it's clearly a different religion?

I do take issue with fictional religions in books that read like real-world religions (or distortions/stereotypes of real religions) with different labels slapped on or the window-dressing changed. Build up a consistent, believable world with a religion that flows organically from the history and culture of that world, and you'll be fine. If you need a single head of that religion, figure out what sort of title would develop for him out of that history/culture/language; what expectations there would be for his actions; etc. It could be that it's perfectly fine for him to have a child. It could be that it's not ok, but he does anyhow. But don't think of him as the pope; think in the terms of your fictional society.

(Oh, and celibacy is required for bishops in the Orthodox Church.)

Ageless Stranger · Nov 7, 2007

I suppose in a way I want to show that their is some distant relation between the fiction of my story and the reality in the world, one of the lesser themes in the story is a questioning of religion. Also I wanted a name/position that people would instantly recognise as a very powerful, high up person. I shall have to think on whether to keep it or not. I couldn't be bothered to do any real research on the pope one because it was incredibly mind numbing, the only ones I find interesting are the ones from the crusades and even then because it's practically a study in small mindedness/stupidity and also because he's only a veeeeery minor back character, has less than five hundred words in the whole story and is there mainly as part of the plot.

AnnieColleen · Nov 7, 2007

Based on that description, I would probably take issue with the story regardless of whether that particular character had a child.

Really. Do the research; do the worldbuilding. Don't rely on shortcuts just to push people's buttons.

Danger Jane · Nov 7, 2007

You can have that theme without using or referencing a real religion. Pope derives from the same root as Papa--it's a title that means Father. So think about that, in terms of your world and its language.

Also, people will be able to identify with the idea of a supreme wordly leader of a religion just fine without him being named Pope.

And yes the kids thing is fine

Gillhoughly · Nov 7, 2007

Sounds like you should read Dune. The first, the original, the best, not the time-wasting movies, series, cash-in sequels, prequels, etc. There's a reason it's a classic.

And Asimov's story, The Nine Billion Names of God.

and A Canticle for Liebowitz,

and any number of others with similar themes in the plot. Keeps you from reinventing the wheel.

Jersey Chick · Nov 7, 2007

Outside of the Catholic religion, is the Pope seen as that big a deal? I mean, the Dalai Lama is an important figure to the Tibetans (I think - I'll confess a good deal of ignorance as to who runs what religious show- no offense intended to those who may be more religious than I am), but I'm not in awe of him. Of course, I'm a recovering Catholic, so I'm not exactly in awe of the Pope either.

If you want to provoke fear, there are a lot of different titles to conjure up images. Just look through history.

WendyNYC · Nov 7, 2007

I wouldn't call him Pope unless I wanted to make a statement about the Catholic religion specifically. It means little to Protestants, Jewish people, Muslims, etc. I'm Episcopalian, and if I read about a nefarious character called "the Pope," I'd assume you were taking a swing at Catholics.

If you are going to make a statement about religion, it's important to know something about it. If you don't, it will come out in your writing.

JohnDavidPaxton · Nov 7, 2007

I wouldn't have an issue with it in this world, seeing as I'm just about positive as it had to have happened at least once.

WendyNYC · Nov 7, 2007

JohnDavidPaxton said:
I wouldn't have an issue with it in this world, seeing as I'm just about positive as it had to have happened at least once.

Yes, I'm not sure when clerical celibacy became a doctrine of the Catholic Church, but it wasn't always so. Just after the Middle Ages maybe?

J. R. Tomlin · Nov 7, 2007

nessam said:
Nope, as long as they don't have to take a vow of abstinence it is almost expected.

Even if the DO have to take a vow of abstinence--again take a look at history.

Judg · Nov 7, 2007

WendyNYC said:
If you are going to make a statement about religion, it's important to know something about it. If you don't, it will come out in your writing.

I second this motion. It doesn't make much sense to make a statement on an issue which you are, by your own admission, ignorant. Cheap shots are, well, cheap. A dime a dozen. You can hear them on any hotline show. All you are going to do is regurgitate stereotypes.

And I'm not even Catholic.

J. R. Tomlin · Nov 7, 2007

It's not a "cheap shot" unless it is done with the intent of slapping the Catholics.

The fact is that abstinence predated the middle ages and the popes who had children had taken a vow of abstinence. This is simply history, and there would be nothing unlikely about similar situations happening again.

On the other hand, it should be done AS a cheap shot. If it is part of the world building, sure call him the pope.

If you want awe, possibly go for Inquisitor.

poetinahat · Nov 7, 2007

J. R. Tomlin said:
It's not a "cheap shot" unless it is done with the intent of slapping the Catholics.

So, was this...

Ageless Stranger said:
I know very little about organised religion (Considered me blessed in this regard)

a cheap shot?

And "pretty sure" the Pope isn't allowed to have children? Doesn't anybody look things up anymore? Sorry -- had to ask. It can't be that hard to find out.

Judg · Nov 7, 2007

Well, it wasn't an expensive one. Religious people are often, and too often rightly, disparaged for criticizing things they know little or nothing about. It is not a failing restricted to religious people. And I am getting old enough to be weary of it in all its manifestations.

David I · Nov 7, 2007

Gillhoughly said:
Sounds like you should read Dune. The first, the original, the best, not the time-wasting movies, series, cash-in sequels, prequels, etc. There's a reason it's a classic.

And Asimov's story, The Nine Billion Names of God.

and A Canticle for Liebowitz,

and any number of others with similar themes in the plot. Keeps you from reinventing the wheel.

Agreed. Though Nine Billion Names of God is actually Clarke, I believe. He has some other religiously themed stories worht reading as well.

Shweta · Nov 7, 2007

I'm with the people who say "If you want to write about it please read up on it."

Really, ignorance shines through bright and clear. It's easy to see.

And... I'm Hindu, and would see "pope" as a stab at Catholicism, not at organized religion.

Gillhoughly said:
And Asimov's story, The Nine Billion Names of God.

Wasn't that a Clarke story? Or am I misremembering? ETA: cross-posted with David, sorry

I'd add Phillip Pullman's His Dark Materials trilogy to the reading list

Popish problems.

Dave Brubeck kicks your ass.

Historicals and Horror rule

practical experience, FTW

Dave Brubeck kicks your ass.

Grumpy writer and editor

Call me Pookie

giving resonant directions

It's green they say

Invisible Writer

Dave Brubeck kicks your ass.

Invisible Writer

Grumpy writer and editor

Up all night to get Loki

fiddle-dee-dee

fiddle-dee-dee

DISENCHANTED coming soon

Numbers are beautiful

DISENCHANTED coming soon

gone