BEWARE: Children's Literary Agency (WL Childrens Agency) [Archive]

MessageBoardAltView

03-17-2005, 08:31 PM

I am going to try to post this on the message board. I've never used one, but was emailed the link by the agency. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8286

I'm Pete the www.peeperandfriends.com (http://www.peeperandfriends.com%20/)(the hook) and author of Peeper The Kinkajou, Peeper Goes To Florida, and Boomer To The Rescue. I would first like to say that I am offended by you saying it's a scheme. You need a bit of my background first. I was a Marine Special ops guy who was highly decorated for putting my life on the line to go evacuate innocents out of hostile environments. I came out of the military and became a stock broker. A top producing stock broker. I left that business on top because I wasn't fulfilled with just making money. I wanted a purpose and to help. I guess I was looking for the feeling I had coming through the door with my small team and rescuing people who thought they were to face slaughter. I started a private investigation agency, which I still own www.soginv.com (http://www.soginv.com/). I helped many people there, but still felt a need for more so I wrote and published children's books, which educate children on unique creatures, their ecosystems, and their need for our help. I have had a greater positive impact on more adults, children, and the environment than any of you and all of you together. I say this confidently.

Going back to my issue with the message board. Since I am a private investigator and have learned from many cases that you can't assume anything only investigate fact. It bothers me that you all have these expert opinions based on nothing and they are not even educated( sorry Dr., but the Dr. doesn't always account for common sense).

I am writing this against the wishes of the agency. They said be nice. it's hard to be when offended. Why don't you contact me and let me waste my time proving to you what fact is. One they Children's agency did lie about me making $50,000 last year. I did it in 3 weeks with honorarium and book sales. I asked them why they didn't put the truth about how quickly i did it and they were right in saying that the authors will think it not believable. Now to show you. I am going to be touring 2 weeks from April18-29 in Loudoun county Va and Ocean City MD. come see what I do fist hand and I will show you the numbers. I will make around $40,000 for the 2 weeks. The problem is that unsuccessful authors like to sit around and need to have a purpose by giving expert opinions to new authors. I am way to busy being successful to do this, but some of you need a wake up call. You own failure is your fault and you really aren't helping, only hurting authors when giving them advice on good and bad when you have no idea what you are talking about. My job isn't to waste time complaining or I would then turn into you complainers. I am willing to show you fact. Are you willing to see it? I know several other authors who are happy with The agency.

The agents from the CLA have great business minds. I was the one who suggested they recommend editors because any one can edit grammar and spelling. I have a button on my computer that does it. Knowing how to better communicate to your target market is also important. Most seasoned writer's think they do, but don't. Why do you think such a small percentage of people get published. And beside they may waste money like i did with the first person i had edit. She was an english teacher so the grammar and spelling were perfect. I have personally helped best selling authors who were previously published through big houses finally make money. That's the difference between the new and old era. I was a successful investment banker who understands business. Most book industry people know what they know and aren't great at business.

If you would like to contact me to educate your self more on the real world, call me or email. You can reach me through my website. I feel for all of you experts who have time to play on all the message boards. Turn that negative time and energy around and focus it on positively moving forward in your life and you may become successful also. I don't mean all in money, but to me success means fully being happy with where you are and what you're doing and with all your negativity, you're not there.

If I offended you I'm sorry, but maybe you needed to be offended. I will also entertain any apologies for tieing me into what was called a scheme. This may not be about you I just grabbed all the emails from the board so you could here my side. By the way. I was first printed Jan 05 and within 6 months I accomplished more than most writers do in a lifetime so I believe I speak from authority about business epecially with my background and experiences.

Peter Parente

What they did for me:

sold my publishing company and got me the terms I required.
set up my school appointments based on my school models
told me not to create such a big website, but to keep it simple and not waste my money. I chose to waste my money to do extrs because I wanted to
Got me to an editor who gave me some priceless advice
currectly working on licensing for toys, games, T.V., and Movies. I was in meetings yesterday with investment bankers about the TV show.
Helped some authors I know
They work with they author in the capacity they are looking for. Most authors just want to be published until they are and then are unhappy with the deal. I like being rewarded for my work, you?
That's all for now. I won't be checking back.

victoriastrauss

03-17-2005, 09:11 PM

See my discussion of Children's Literary Agency here. (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=122521#post122521) It's post #432. Briefly, this agency promotes its own paid editing services and recommends that writers pay for sample illustrations to accompany their submissions. Apart from the fact that reputable agencies don't ask their clients to pay for adjunct services, the illlustration thing is a no-no: unless your book is a collaboration or you yourself are the illustrator, publishers prefer to choose the illustrator. Including sample illustrations not by you or a co-author will immediately tag your submission as unprofessional.

I've seen the Children's Literary Agency's contract and accompanying materials, so I'm not pulling this information out of the air.

Mr Parente, a couple of questions for you, just in case you do check back:

- Who is Dorothy Walker, who's listed on the Children's Literary Agency website (http://www.childrensliteraryagency.com/about.html) as the agency's president? If she has indeed sold books to Scholastic and Henry Holt, why can't I find any books under her name with those publishers? I can't even find her listed with Tree of Life, your own self-publishing company.

- The agency's address (per its contract) is in Manhattan, but this is an office building that advertises "virtual office services" (i.e., you can be anywhere in the world and have your phone and mail picked up in New York). Plus, its intake materials advise writers to snail mail to an address in Boca Raton, Florida. Boca Raton is the location of ST Literary Agency, which is the subject of numerous "bewares" here and elsewhere. Also, the Children's Literary Agency's contract is nearly identical to ST's contract, including several unique features such as a nondisparagement clause. Is Children's Literary Agency connected with ST Literary Agency--and if so, how?

- Who is Robert West, who signs himself as Children's Literary Agency's Senior Agent? He wouldn't be Robert Fletcher of ST Literary, would he?

Thanks in advance for your reply.

- Victoria

Kimberly Young

03-18-2005, 06:03 PM

Hello again. Got this reply from Children's Lit, and I just want to know what you guys think of it. I am not attacking their reputation or questioning their practice/ethics. I just want some feedback on whether I should consider entering into a professional relationship with them or not.
Many thanks.

Their reply goes ...

We have reviewed your manuscript and your form submission and we believe that your work has promise.

We agree that your manuscript is targeted at a good market and we would like to represent more work in this category.

We see from the form you filled out that the work has not been formally edited yet and that there is a need for a few catchy illustrations (see below).

In light of the above facts we would be willing to offer you an Agreement for Representation assuming that we can agree on a few matters of process.

First, please allow me to express our philosophy so that you understand more about how we work. Most importantly, it is imperative that we offer ONLY top quality work to our buyers. We have a reputation for only representing top quality work and we plan to keep it.

Once the 'quality of writing' issue is dealt with, we then try to offer "creative, compelling, and catchy" elements to our buyers so that we differentiate our submittals from those of other agencies. In other words, there's lots of quality writing out there, so we try to make sure that our stands out in some creative and catchy manner.

What does this mean to you? If you are willing to work with an independent 3rd party for editing/validation and if you are willing to work to create a few compelling and catchy illustrations to support your work and our presentation of it, then we are willing to represent you. (Note: you can choose your own editor or illustrator or we can recommend professionals that we know and trust. Either way is fine with us, but if you choose your own, then we will have to approve them).

So, if you will signify your agreement to this plan of action, then we will issue you a contract and begin the process with you. If you have any questions I will be happy to answer them for you. I prefer email so that we have a record of our communications.
I got the exact same letter! When I asked if they were AAR members and why I had to pay for illustrators and editors I got a "Sorry, we've just filled our allocation for this quarter." Run, Emma!
Kimberly Young

Zolah

04-07-2005, 05:57 PM

I just love how (because he is a positive and successful writer) he doesn't have time to complain, moan and be negative (like us unsuccessful writers)...and then goes on to whine and ***** for about six paragraphs.

Plus - if he knows how to use the 'button on his computer' to check his spelling and grammar, why didn't he do so before sending that typo riddled email?

katiebug57

04-08-2005, 02:13 AM

Please bear with me . . . haven't figured out the quick reply thing.

Emma, I have to say, this does NOT sound like a very good thing to me. It sounds like a bunch of gobble-de-gook to hide that they are trying to get money through "improving" your work by your paying for an editor.

I'd definitely steer clear.

Katiebug

James D. Macdonald

04-13-2005, 08:57 PM

More on Children's Literary Agency (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=157694#post157694) here.

Lauri B

04-13-2005, 09:22 PM

[QUOTE=MessageBoardAltView]I am going to try to post this on the message board. I've never used one, but was emailed the link by the agency. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8286

I'm Pete the www.peeperandfriends.com (http://www.peeperandfriends.com%20/)(the hook) and author of Peeper The Kinkajou, Peeper Goes To Florida, and Boomer To The Rescue. One they Children's agency did lie about me making $50,000 last year. I did it in 3 weeks with honorarium and book sales. I asked them why they didn't put the truth about how quickly i did it and they were right in saying that the authors will think it not believable. Now to show you. I am going to be touring 2 weeks from April18-29 in Loudoun county Va and Ocean City MD. come see what I do fist hand and I will show you the numbers. I will make around $40,000 for the 2 weeks.

Hi Pete,
Can you give us details on the honoraria you received in support of your children's books that totaled $50,000, and what you'll be doing for 2 weeks in Loudon County, VA that will net you $40,000? It sounds like you have a pretty amazing promotional plan for your books, since children's books typically don't make the author very much money. I'm sure your advice would be welcomed by many authors--children's and adult trade authors alike.

vhpratt

04-14-2005, 02:11 PM

...goes along way....
First, Mr. Parente's books are published through his own company 'Peepers and Friends'. Second, he distributes his books through Biblio, a distributor specializing in independent publishers...aka...self distribution. The Children's Literary Agency offers its address as 275 Madison Ave, New York...impressive at first, but research shows that this address can be purchased for as little as $65 a month, if you want mail service only.

The reading between the lines should tell you what you need to know before any research was ever needed. For instance....the agency is so offended by this message board, it alerts their client...uh..hello...red flag. Next flag...and an obvious one is the lack of authors listed and the books they have represented. Another flag...what agency would accept work that is not presentable? Still another flag... oh, forget it...I could go on all night.

To those asking if this comapny is reputable....do your homework, research the company. To those who respond to someone asking for answers...do not offer an opinion, offer the facts...

robf55906

04-15-2005, 07:27 PM

Wow, I'm glad I stumbled onto this thread. I got the exact same contract and have been mulling it over for a few days. I too was skeptical about the fact that they didn't even comment on the quality or nature of my work - as if they hadn't read it. I was thinking of going ahead and taking the risk today - ie signing the contract. But not now!

kayscats20

04-17-2005, 06:34 PM

I too have been dealing with S T and Childrens Lit. As soon as I said I could not afford any editing they dropped me like a rock. Beginnning to think Publish America is the way to go. Can not beleive that ALL of the Publishers are so Over worked and under staffed, and that there are, according to them, thousands of wanna be Authors out there. It seems to me they would all be interested in going the way of the computer to check out possible Authors, rather than having all that PAPER!!!! And what does anyone know about Author House? I know they are a vanity type press. Any other info on them someone could share? And Dorrance owns Whitmore, so if you submit to Dorrance first, Whitmore will reply with a not interested in this type of material at this time, even after stating that was the material type they were most in need of!!!! Oh, and I am glad to be a new member to this forum. Thanks for any insight!

Richard

04-17-2005, 07:04 PM

AuthorHouse is a horrific vanity press that will charge you an absolute fortune for the priviledge of printing, not publishing, your work. I'm hoping the Publish America line was a joke ;-)

As the roughest of rough guidelines, avoid anything with names like 'Publish' or 'Author', simply because it makes it clear that their primary customers are the authors themselves, not potential readers.

Rose Red

04-17-2005, 09:45 PM

Emma, thanks for asking about this.

This was the agency that I was doing the websearch on when I stumbled into this forum yesterday. I submitted to them a few days back, and was awaiting a reply.

I know that everyone will make up their own minds on this, but now that I've read this thread through and all the input, I'll be steering clear of them if they do make me an offer. Sincere thanks to you and everyone else that shared their thoughts for the headsup. Heck, they might not have made me an offer anyway, but it's still good to know! lol

kayscats20

04-17-2005, 10:43 PM

James D. Macdonald

04-19-2005, 03:03 AM

Your best research is in the bookstore.

Which publishers actually have books on the shelf?

kayscats20

04-19-2005, 04:11 AM

Thank you for your response. Am always checking out publishers in the bookstores and hope to get a legit someone interseted! Got a letter from Dorrance today, they only want a total of $ 8400.00.......duh, might as well be a million...... and Author House called today and they will publish for $700.00, a Special Deal.....
Oh, PLeeeaaasssseeee!!!!

James D. Macdonald

04-19-2005, 05:49 AM

Dorrance and AuthorHouse are both vanity presses. If you go with either one you will have no readers.

sgtsdaughter

04-19-2005, 05:51 AM

Dorrance and AuthorHouse are both vanity presses. If you go with either one you will have no readers.

ain't that the truth.

kayscats20

04-19-2005, 03:40 PM

You went through Children's Literary Agency? What publishers did they hook you up with? What book stores are you in? I was always told to beware if a Literary Agency or Publisher asks for money up front. I always thought they read your manuscript and if they liked it, they pay you. What about those who have talent but no funds with which to pay for publishing their book?

kayscats20

04-19-2005, 03:42 PM

I could not beleive the amount of money Dorrance wants. I could buy into a printing and binding company for that amount!

sgtsdaughter

04-20-2005, 07:12 AM

I could not beleive the amount of money Dorrance wants. I could buy into a printing and binding company for that amount!

That's why POD is often shunned. . . money should flow to the author.

kayscats20

04-20-2005, 07:39 AM

I always thought that was how it was supposed to work. I can not beleive that these people can get away with this sham publishing!!!

bduckett1

04-21-2005, 01:00 AM

I recieved a contract from Dorrance Publishing. They asked me for $8500 to publish my book. Of course I graciously, said no. I can self publish for less and do all the work myself. If I am going to pay someone to publish it I might as well pay myself.
My search continues, and rejections keep coming.
I also had looked into Children's Literacy but ran across these posts first and decided against it.
Thanks for all the feedback and this great forum.
We learn from rejections and submit to the next one.

James D. Macdonald

04-21-2005, 01:18 AM

My search continues, and rejections keep coming.

I hope, during all this, that you are writing new, different, and better books.

-----------------------

Newsflash: ST Literary Agency has renamed itself Stylus Literary Agency (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=529&page=20&pp=25).

Georgina Orr

06-24-2005, 02:11 AM

In my role as the VP of Corporate Affairs for the Literary Agency Group I am keen to respond to the postings on this message board. Some of you may know me in my other role, as the Senior Agent for our children's division (The Children's Literary Agency). Again, in our determination to minimize administration costs, one or two of the personnel within our organization are asked to wear more than one hat.

With that introduction, I apologize in advance for the length of this posting.

The Literary Agency Group is keenly aware of the negative messages on these boards and frankly we are concerned by them as well. Please allow me to give you our analysis of the situation and a suggestion about how to proceed.

There appear to be three categories of people on these boards.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
1) The first category are the 'industry watchdogs'. These are people that derive some level of psychological benefits from 'exposing' fraud, scams, etc. WE HAVE CONTACTED THESE PEOPLE NUMEROUS TIMES AND OFFERED TO ANSWER THEIR QUESTIONS ON A PUBLIC FORUM FOR THE BEST INTEREST OF THE INDUSTRY AND THE WRITERS. They have refused or ignored our requests. What does that tell you? It tells me that they aren't interested in the truth, it tells me that they are interested in more visitors to their website. Also, they have blocked our rebuttal posts and deleted our prior posts. In short, a very one-sided message board!

2) The second category are people that have worked with us, for whom we haven't been successful, and they are blameful, pointing fingers, etc. Basically just jumping on the bandwagon because they would rather feel 'took' than acknowledge that their work wasn't good enough to sell. We call this the sour grapes crowd.

3) The third category, whom we feel the most sorry for, are authors who stumble into this mess. Many of these authors just decide not to continue, and may lose the one real chance that they ever had to secure representation.

So, what to do?....
------------------------
First, go through the message board and try to find anything of substance. What we see is repeat, repeat, and each time something is repeated, it gets more and more outlandish. Our favorite was that "we steal work and sell it to China". ugh.

Go through the boards and send me SPECIFIC questions. Actually, I'll save some time here, and answer them now because we've heard them all before...

Q) You charge fees.. that sucks.. no one should charge a writer anything... you should get paid only if you sell something... and various flavors of this misconception.

A) We do not charge fees. We ask writers to improve their work and a critique and editing (sometimes) is part of that process. And, we ask for mailing expenses if it happens. The odds are so against new writers that we've learned that we can only invest our time with writers that are willing to pull their own weight. Writers that aren't willing to pull their weight, we call the "something for nothing" writer, who is regurgitating old mantras about how if an agent charges anything, they are bad. Guess what, if your name was President Clinton, we'd waive our fees too.

Q) You've never sold anything... the author sold it.. blah, blah

A) We now have 4 deals. The most recent is with an UK publisher. (Note: because of the vitriolic people on these boards we don't post our deals because the instant we post a name, the really creepy and scary people that hate us start sending this crap to the posted name. We've got the documents and if ever needed our lawyers can pull them out.) We assisted every author with the contract on those 4 deals. We actually have emails from the publisher complimenting us on the fair job we did for our author. Yes, in two of the deals the author found the relationship, and in two of them, we found the relationship. In all 4 deals we provided SIGNIFICANT value to the contract negotiation and the post-publishing support. The thing that is lost in all this is that very, very few literary agents have even one deal under their belt. Also, we did a measurement in April and we had 68 open and active discussions with buyers about our authors' work. We expect a few more deals by the end of the year. You might also be interested to note that we also find really bad contracts for our authors and we recommend that they don't accept them. We've seen more contracts than anyone you know and we bring that expertise to our clients.

Q) You use Form Letters and you are impersonal...

A) True or false, we have answered every email that that our authors send us? I know the answer is true. To me, that's personal service. Yes, we use form letters for billing, acquisitions, status reports, etc. Our lawyers like us to say it the same way, every time. Should that really be held against us? By using every method possible to keep our admin costs down, we can spend our money selling for our authors, it's that simple.

Q) The people who work at your company are scam artists, thieves, and have records... etc.

A) This is the grapevine at it's worst. We aren't, we aren't and we don't. You ever heard of miss-identity and identity theft. We have learned that it's impossible to curb this situation. Also, did you ever ask why writers have used pen names since time began, and why agents are so hard to get to? One reason is because some crazy writer has stalked every agent that we know at some time.

Q) Your office in New York, isn't listed on the sign.

A) Oh, this is a good one. Have you ever rented office space in New York? You don't get signs unless you take a floor. We have phones, desks, and a shared conference room, and if you want a big office to come feel comfortable in, go to an Agency that spills money like water. We'd prefer to save our money for marketing our writers.

Q) They say you take anyone... how can that be?

A) We take anyone that is willing to take the steps necessary to improve their work. That's why we use the critique to WEED OUT those authors that want something for nothing. If an author is willing to grow and improve, then we feel that they deserve a shot at success. We are one of the few agencies that will even talk to an unpublished author. The critique is an impartial, 3rd party analysis of the work. It shows us where the author is, and it also protects us from an overzealous agent.

Q) If all this is so untrue, why haven't you done anything about it?

A) We've tried. We're filing lawsuits against Victoria Strauss and a few other message board owners, but for the most part, anyone can say anything, so we have just learned to live with it, and to hope that the real authors, the ones we want as clients, can see it for what it is.

So, in conclusion, spend time looking for any real and substantive items on the boards, and let us try to answer the question as best we can. But first, please let me repeat our business model. We want writers who are willing to help themselves, we ask for defraying administrative expenses, we have sales, and we have detractors.

However, in the end, you the writer must be the one that decides what to do. If you are unwilling to spend any money to improve your writing, then please go away. If you are willing to take a small chance with us, then give us a try.

Either way, we wish everyone the best in their writing careers.

Sincerely yours,
Georgina Orr, VP Corporate Affairs
Literary Agency Group

Trapped in amber

06-24-2005, 03:17 AM

How many sales have you made to commercial publishing houses?
Please give the names of the authors, the titles of the books and the publishing houses they were sold to. I don't know of any good agency who won't verify their sales. They're proud of their track record.

Trapped in amber

06-24-2005, 03:36 AM

For information on this company, the following threads are
useful:

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8312

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=529

Richard

06-24-2005, 03:49 AM

Georgina, really, I make no claim of following your company's activities in any way more than reading the occasional post about it, so I apologise if any of this sounds in any way misunderstanding your situation. Still, that sprawl makes little sense to this humble writer...

As such, since you offer to answer questions:

"That's why we use the critique to WEED OUT those authors that want something for nothing."

"The odds are so against new writers that we've learned that we can only invest our time with writers that are willing to pull their own weight"

If you are unwilling to spend any money to improve your writing, then please go away

"Pulling their own weight"? "Something for nothing"? Shouldn't words like 'quality' or 'marketability' be putting in something of an appearance there?

Note: because of the vitriolic people on these boards we don't post our deals because the instant we post a name, the really creepy and scary people that hate us start sending this crap to the posted name.

...except that isn't the main, number one complaint people seem to have that they can't find any evidence of you guys selling a book? It seems to me that being able to give a good, high-profile example of a title for which no money changed hands would be an obvious way of quashing the majority of those critics.

Q) Your office in New York, isn't listed on the sign.

If this is a reference to the post I think it is, that wasn't Jim's claim. His story involved going into the building and working through the full tenant list with the security guard in the lobby. Where is the New York office?

Christine N.

06-24-2005, 04:03 AM

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL .... Yeah, the "industry watchdogs" have something to gain. Whatever. I'll trust people like Dave, Victoria, or Anne any day of the week. Why? B/C they've proven to be trustworthy people. They don't do flybys.

aka eraser

06-24-2005, 04:10 AM

Hello Georgina.

I can hear the hissing of a forked tongue.

Can you boys and girls?

I knew you could.

LloydBrown

06-24-2005, 04:55 AM

very few literary agents have even one deal under their belt

That’s so patently untrue as to be ridiculous. If they don’t get deals for a period of time, they go out of business. Any company must have revenue to sustain itself. The alternative is a revenue stream that depends on a source other than book sales—like the authors, for example.

Writer’s Market lists about 225 agents that have made deals.

Also, did you ever ask why writers have used pen names since time began, and why agents are so hard to get to? One reason is because some crazy writer has stalked every agent that we know at some time.

One reason writers use pen names is because some crazy writer has stalked every agent that you know? That doesn’t seem to make sense. Since you used and to link your independent clauses, the following sentence should be construed to apply to both clauses. We call it parallelism. Literary agents should be familiar with it, because publishers certainly are.

We now have 4 deals.

With which publishers would those be? You’ve stated that you don’t want to release the author names, which is remarkable since actual book sales are a legitimate literary agency’s best marketing tool.

We are one of the few agencies that will even talk to an unpublished author.

You have a strange definition of “few.” Again, Writer’s Market alone lists about 200. I’m sure your claim is a very convincing line unless your audience does about 12 seconds of research.

Now I’ll agree if you say “author whose work he doesn’t feel he can place.” Of course the agents that earn money through book sales turn those down. Only agents that earn money through self-referential editing fees take those authors on.

Your office in New York, isn't listed on the sign.

I believe the accusation was that your office in New York *doesn’t actually exist*. I noticed that you don’t have a phone listing there, either, which comes free with a phone. Do you not have a phone in your office? Here, I’ll make it easy: who are your neighbors on the left and right?

The question is also a run-on sentence.

This is the grapevine at it's worst

Its. Possessive, not a contraction (the pronoun without an antecedent is a minor point, hardly worth mentioning).

If an author is willing to grow and improve, then we feel that they deserve

Should be “he deserves.” Author is a singular noun. They is a plural pronoun.

if an agent charges anything, they are bad

You did it again.

Are you sure you work for a literary agency? Maybe you should contact that editing service. Or a middle-school grammar teacher.

victoriastrauss

06-24-2005, 06:24 AM

1) The first category are the 'industry watchdogs'. These are people that derive some level of psychological benefits from 'exposing' fraud, scams, etc. WE HAVE CONTACTED THESE PEOPLE NUMEROUS TIMES AND OFFERED TO ANSWER THEIR QUESTIONS ON A PUBLIC FORUM FOR THE BEST INTEREST OF THE INDUSTRY AND THE WRITERS. They have refused or ignored our requests.Now, I'm a fairly modest person. I never assume that anyone will know who I am or what my accomplishments are. However, I know that your boss knows who I am, Georgina, because he has tried to scare me with threats of legal action. So I'm raising my hand as one "industry watchdog" who has not been contacted even once by anyone at your agencies with an offer to answer my questions.

Since you are so willing to answer questions, I will come up with some. But later. Tonight I'm too tired.

Also, they have blocked our rebuttal posts and deleted our prior posts. In short, a very one-sided message board!This may have happened to you on some other message board. I don't know. But it has never happened on this one.

I actually really like your posts, Georgina, and I like your boss's too. They say more about your operation than I ever could.

- Victoria

victoriastrauss

06-24-2005, 06:27 AM

Lawsuit, schmawsuit.

- Victoria

victoriastrauss

06-24-2005, 06:27 AM

Is it time to move this thread over to the Bewares topic?

- Victoria

robeiae

06-24-2005, 06:31 AM

Lawsuit, schmawsuit.

- Victoria
Does this...stuff...ever end for you, Victoria? I don't know how you put up with it!
:Hail:

Rob :)

James D. Macdonald

06-24-2005, 06:41 AM

Victoria, can I do a line-by-line on Georgina's perfidious twaddle?

Oh, heck, I think I will, because I'm one of the people she was just talking about. Back in a minute.

---

PS I think this thread should remain here because the Children's Literary Agency preys on children's writers. We already have a Children's Literary Agency thread down in Bewares. Here is where the folks targeted by CLA are more likely to see it.

Trapped in amber

06-24-2005, 07:03 AM

---

PS I think this thread should remain here because the Children's Literary Agency preys on children's writers. We already have a Children's Literary Agency thread down in Bewares. Here is where the folks targeted by CLA are more likely to see it.

I second that. I know that's not how things are usually done, but I think in this instance it might be a good idea to make an exception.

HapiSofi

06-24-2005, 07:08 AM

Oh, Georgina Orr. Indeed and truly you've chosen a bad place to be lame in.

Padrino Yog, you go first.

aka eraser

06-24-2005, 08:22 AM

I agree with Jim. Let's leave it here. More writers of youth-oriented material are likely to see it and we know Georgina found her way here once. Maybe she'll re-grace us with her presence again. Can't have her claiming "foul" that we "deleted" (moved) her post(s).

James D. Macdonald

06-24-2005, 10:24 AM

In my role as the VP of Corporate Affairs for the Literary Agency Group I am keen to respond to the postings on this message board.

Excellent!

Isn't it true that Children's Literary Agency was created solely to take some heat off Stylus (ST) Literary Agency? Is it true that you haven't sold any books, ever, to anyone?

Some of you may know me in my other role, as the Senior Agent for our children's division (The Children's Literary Agency).

Great! What books have you sold? Which editors do you know best?

Isn't it a fact that no one knows you in any role? You're a stealth agent -- and that's impossible. An agent's job is to be visible.

Again, in our determination to minimize administration costs, one or two of the personnel within our organization are asked to wear more than one hat.

Are any of those "hats" selling books to publishers?

With that introduction, I apologize in advance for the length of this posting.

No, please, go on. Just remember that anything you say can be used against you in a court of law.

The Literary Agency Group is keenly aware of the negative messages on these boards and frankly we are concerned by them as well.

As well you should be. Anyone searching for your web page runs into link after link of accurate information long before they find your false and misleading site.

Please allow me to give you our analysis of the situation and a suggestion about how to proceed.

Yes, please do. Here's my suggestion for how to proceed: Go out of business. Find an honest job. Pay restitution.

There appear to be three categories of people on these boards.

People who warn writers against scams, writers, and scammers.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
1) The first category are the 'industry watchdogs'. These are people that derive some level of psychological benefits from 'exposing' fraud, scams, etc.

Yes, I admit it. Saving a new writer from making a costly mistake does feel good.

WE HAVE CONTACTED THESE PEOPLE NUMEROUS TIMES AND OFFERED TO ANSWER THEIR QUESTIONS ON A PUBLIC FORUM FOR THE BEST INTEREST OF THE INDUSTRY AND THE WRITERS.

YOU'RE LYING.

Names, dates, places? Oh, you mean you never did contact anyone. But since you're willing to answer questions in a public forum, here we go:

What have you sold? Titles, authors, publishers, dates.

They have refused or ignored our requests.

Another lie.

What does that tell you?

That you're a liar.

It tells me that they aren't interested in the truth,

There's someone here who isn't interested in the truth, but that person isn't me.

it tells me that they are interested in more visitors to their website.

You're aware that Writer Beware and Preditors & Editors don't sell ads?

Also, they have blocked our rebuttal posts and deleted our prior posts.

Neither Preditors & Editors nor Writer Beware even have messageboards for you to post on. Your posts, and Robert Fletcher's posts, and posts from Paul Anderson and Peter Parente are still here for anyone to read. You're posting right now.

In short, a very one-sided message board!

In short, a crude lie that anyone can see for themselves is a lie.

2) The second category are people that have worked with us, for whom we haven't been successful,

That's "nearly everyone," isn't it? You're talking about the people who paid their money and got nothing but a run-around in return.

and they are blameful, pointing fingers, etc. Basically just jumping on the bandwagon because they would rather feel 'took' than acknowledge that their work wasn't good enough to sell.

The old "Blame the Victim" trick. If their work wasn't good enough to sell why in the world would you have represented it?

If you did represent works that weren't "good enough," actually submitted it to publishers, the publishers would soon learn that you submit trash, and would treat your submissions like any other piece of unsolicited slush. So which is it, Georgina? You're lousy agents or you're scam agents?

We call this the sour grapes crowd.

I call it the "eyes opened too late" crowd.

3) The third category, whom we feel the most sorry for, are authors who stumble into this mess.

Have their eyes opened, and escape in the nick of time.

Many of these authors just decide not to continue,

And save themselves time, money, and heartache.

and may lose the one real chance that they ever had to secure representation.

A bad agent is worse than no agent at all. The ones who avoid your traps, who have commercial works, will find real agents who can genuinely represent them. That isn't any sort of tragedy.

So, what to do?....

Go out of business. Find an honest job. Maybe if you make a full confession to your local district attorney, turn state's evidence, you won't go to the hardbar hotel with Robert Fletcher.

------------------------
First, go through the message board and try to find anything of substance.

There's gobs of it.

What we see is repeat, repeat, and each time something is repeated, it gets more and more outlandish. Our favorite was that "we steal work and sell it to China". ugh.

That claim was made by one individual -- probably based on Robert Fletcher's own claim that he was working some kind of deals in China. It was debunked right here by one of the AW regulars, well over a year ago.

The fact is that ST Literary and its little collection of daughter agencies can't sell works in China. Or anywhere else.

Go through the boards and send me SPECIFIC questions.

What have you sold? Title, author, publisher?
Which editors do you work with most often? Which do you know best?
What's the actual physical location of your office?
What are the names of your agents? What is their prior experience in publishing?

Actually, I'll save some time here, and answer them now because we've heard them all before...

Those are questions you've heard many times, but have never answered.

Q) You charge fees.. that sucks.. no one should charge a writer anything... you should get paid only if you sell something... and various flavors of this misconception.

No misconception. Literary agencies -- real ones -- make their money by selling books to publishers. Not by charging fees. Not by having their authors pay fees to "sister companies" that you also happen to own.

A) We do not charge fees.

No, you send authors to other people (who just happen to be you) to pay their fees.

We ask writers to improve their work and a critique and editing (sometimes) is part of that process.

For a fee. While I can't prove that you ask your writers to pay that fee every time, it's certainly most times, isn't it?

And, we ask for mailing expenses if it happens.

Real agencies get reimbursed for legitimate expenses out of the advance after the book sells. If the book doesn't sell, they eat the loss.

The odds are so against new writers that we've learned that we can only invest our time with writers that are willing to pull their own weight.

That is, pay a fee.

Writers that aren't willing to pull their weight,

That is, pay a fee...

we call the "something for nothing" writer,

A better term would be "professional" writer or "savvy" writer, or "reasonable" writer.

who is regurgitating old mantras about how if an agent charges anything, they are bad.

Which happens to be pretty close to the truth.

Guess what, if your name was President Clinton, we'd waive our fees too.

Waive your fee? I thought you just said that you didn't have a fee. Were you lying before, or are you lying right now?

You know something? My name isn't President Clinton either, but I don't pay fees. Neither do other writers who know what's what.

Q) You've never sold anything... the author sold it.. blah, blah

Very true.

A) We now have 4 deals.

Name them. Title, author, publisher, date.

But tell me -- you've been in business (according to your man Robert West) for "7+ years." Is four deals in seven years what you're boasting of? That's pretty pathetic.

The most recent is with an UK publisher.

Name them.

(Note: because of the vitriolic people on these boards we don't post our deals because the instant we post a name, the really creepy and scary people that hate us start sending this crap to the posted name. We've got the documents and if ever needed our lawyers can pull them out.)

Yeah, I just bet. Those "creepy and scary" people don't seem to trouble real agents. You know, the ones who post deals all over the place, all the time.

Wouldn't the best way to take the wind out of the sails of the "creepy and scary" people be to prove that you've sold a book somewhere, to someone?

We assisted every author with the contract on those 4 deals.

I just bet you did. I'd love to see those contracts to see what you missed.

We actually have emails from the publisher complimenting us on the fair job we did for our author.

Really? Who?

Yes, in two of the deals the author found the relationship, and in two of them, we found the relationship.

So, fifty percent of that pitiful four deals were made by the authors themselves? What did they need you for? By your own admission you've only been able to sell two books, ever?

What were those two books?

In all 4 deals we provided SIGNIFICANT value to the contract negotiation and the post-publishing support.

Oh, yeah, right. You allowed poor Dario to sign a contract for royalties based on net. That's sure some significant value, you betcha.

The thing that is lost in all this is that very, very few literary agents have even one deal under their belt.

Then they aren't really literary agents either. Maybe they're for-a-fee scammers, maybe they're people who woke up one morning and decided to be literary agents without having a single clue what it entailed. All of the real literary agents have sold multiple books, recently.

Also, we did a measurement in April and we had 68 open and active discussions with buyers about our authors' work.

Which means precisely nothing.

We expect a few more deals by the end of the year.

Sure, deals that you'll refuse to name.

Real agents announce their deals. You don't announce your deals (assuming they even exist). Therefore, you aren't real agents.

You might also be interested to note that we also find really bad contracts for our authors and we recommend that they don't accept them.

Operating at the level you do, I bet you do see really bad contracts. When I recall that some of the authors you've boasted about have "sold" their books to pay-to-play POD vanity houses or e-book publishers, well, yes. You've very likely seen some lousy contracts.

We've seen more contracts than anyone you know and we bring that expertise to our clients. Are you entirely sure? I know quite a few people, and some of them have seen an awful lot of contracts. I wonder if maybe I personally haven't signed more contracts than you've ever seen.

Q) You use Form Letters and you are impersonal...

It's easy to set up an autoresponder.

A) True or false, we have answered every email that that our authors send us? I know the answer is true.

True or false, you've offered a contract to every one of them. Email is easily automated. Merely responding isn't a very high bar.

To me, that's personal service.

To me, that's BS.

Yes, we use form letters for billing, acquisitions, status reports, etc.

And, remarkably, for the rejections that you pretend to get from publishers that you supposedly sent the works to. Isn't it amazing that so many publishers respond to all your submissions with exactly the same words?

Our lawyers like us to say it the same way, every time. Should that really be held against us?

Yes.

By using every method possible to keep our admin costs down, we can spend our money selling for our authors, it's that simple.

And you've sold how many authors that way? By your own admisison, two. Which you refuse to name.

Q) The people who work at your company are scam artists, thieves, and have records... etc.

True.

A) This is the grapevine at it's worst. We aren't, we aren't and we don't. You ever heard of miss-identity and identity theft.

So you're trying to say that the Robert M. Fletcher of 699 SW 8th Terrace, Boca Raton, Florida, who was convicted of securities fraud in the state of Washington is someone other than the Robert M. Fletcher of 699 SW 8th Terrace, Boca Raton, Florida, who ran ST Literary Agency? And it never occurred to him to say, "Hey, wait a minute, that's some other guy"?

We have learned that it's impossible to curb this situation.

Weirdly, other agents don't seem to have this problem.

Also, did you ever ask why writers have used pen names since time began, and why agents are so hard to get to?

Writers use pen names for a wide variety of reasons, which you wouldn't know about or be interested in. Agents are hard to get because it's hard to write commercial-grade books.

One reason is because some crazy writer has stalked every agent that we know at some time.

You don't know a lot of agents, do you?

Why is it that real agents make it so easy to find them? Why do they announce their deals? Why do they post their addresses and phone numbers? Why don't you?

Q) Your office in New York, isn't listed on the sign.

More than that, it isn't in the building.

A) Oh, this is a good one.

It is. It's a killer. I was the person who checked. Not only aren't you on the sign, the security guard didn't have you, in any of your incarnations, listed on his master list of tenants.

But since we're on the subject, could you please describe the sign in the lobby of your building? What material is it made of? Where's it located?

Where is the security guard's station?

Have you ever rented office space in New York? You don't get signs unless you take a floor.

This is purest BS. Tenants who rent considerably less than an entire floor are on signs all over Manhattan. It's the only way multiple-tenant office building can work.

We have phones, desks, and a shared conference room,

Really? What's your phone number? Who are the tenants who rent space to your right and left? What do you see directly across the street when you walk out of the building's lobby?

and if you want a big office to come feel comfortable in, go to an Agency that spills money like water.

I'm not particularly interested in a big office. But an office would be nice. What's your physical address?

We'd prefer to save our money for marketing our writers.

Name one.

Q) They say you take anyone... how can that be?

By using an auto-responder to offer a contract to anyone who writes.

A) We take anyone that is willing to take the steps necessary to improve their work.

That is, pay a fee.

That's why we use the critique

Paid for by the author to some company that happens to be owned by the same people as own Children's Literary Agency/The Literary Agency Group.

to WEED OUT those authors that want something for nothing.

That is, the authors who wisely refuse to pay a fee.

If an author is willing to grow and improve,

And pay a fee....

then we feel that they deserve a shot at success.

Which they'd get if they saved the fee money, worked on their art, and submitted their work to legitimate agents.

We are one of the few agencies that will even talk to an unpublished author.

Another lie. Real agents take on unpublished authors all the time.

This is also inconsistent with one of your earlier lies: If most literary agencies (as you claim) don't have even one sale under their belts, then most literary agencies talk to no one other than unpublished authors.

The critique is an impartial, 3rd party analysis of the work.

How is it "3rd party" if it's performed by one of your "sister companies"? (And it's for a fee, isn't it?)

It shows us where the author is, and it also protects us from an overzealous agent.
Do you have a lot of overzealous agents on staff? What does an overzealous agent do -- try to sell your clients' work to publishers?

Q) If all this is so untrue, why haven't you done anything about it?

Because Robert Fletcher would do anything to avoid entering a courtroom again.

A) We've tried. We're filing lawsuits against Victoria Strauss

Have you actually filed a lawsuit? Or did you limit yourself to sending empty threats via your lawyer-in-a-box who charges you $17 a month for "legal insurance"?

and a few other message board owners,

Who have uniformly ignored you.

but for the most part, anyone can say anything, so we have just learned to live with it,

Since you know you don't have a leg to stand on.

and to hope that the real authors, the ones we want as clients, can see it for what it is.

Real authors can definitely see you for what you are.

So, in conclusion, spend time looking for any real and substantive items on the boards,

What have you sold?

and let us try to answer the question as best we can.

How much does your typical client wind up spending?

But first, please let me repeat our business model.

Charging fees to authors for worthless services.

We want writers who are willing to help themselves,

By paying a fee....

we ask for defraying administrative expenses,

Through fees....

we have sales,

That you're unwilling or unable to name....

and we have detractors.

Who have the truth and the evidence on their side.

However, in the end, you the writer must be the one that decides what to do.

Work on your art, and submit your work to legitimate agents. A useful agent has sold works that you've heard of.

If you are unwilling to spend any money to improve your writing,

Which happens to be the wise course....

then please go away.

And count yourself lucky.

If you are willing to take a small chance with us,

That is to say, pay a fee...

then give us a try.

And kiss your money goodbye.

Either way, we wish everyone the best in their writing careers.

And I wish you the best in your next career.

Sincerely yours,
Georgina Orr, VP Corporate Affairs
Literary Agency Group

Say I wanted to buy the movie rights for one of your clients' works. How would I get in touch with you? What's your phone number? Your street address? How would I even know you represent him? You keep your client list a secret.

Real agents don't work that way, Georgina. The sooner you realize that, the better for everyone.

Richard

06-24-2005, 11:19 AM

Mental note, never get into a fight with Uncle Jim.

Inspired

06-24-2005, 05:06 PM

Just don't get into an ignorant or deceiving fight with him. He will tear your words to shreds.

robf55906

06-24-2005, 06:53 PM

I guess the thing that struck me most when I received the "auto-reply" to a story I'd written was that, when I wrote back to ask what their "reader" had said about my piece to make them interested in it, the summary was so brief that it made me wonder how they could possibly take a chance on me. I think the answer is that they don't take a chance on me. As they indicated, they take anyone, and let us buy a critique to find out whether we can really write or not. For my money, I think that's exactly what an AGENCY should do - ie weed out the wheat from the chaff - NOT an external critique which I can buy with or without an agency.
Rob

Bonnie Gibson

06-24-2005, 07:29 PM

There are so many scammers out there I don't know what to do anymore. I have written several childrens stories that I think are good. Several people have read them and think so too. I am afraid to send them to anyone. After PA I think I am like an old gun shy dog. (Any Southerner would know what that means)

So here I sit with my tail between my legs scared to walk out. Every time I read a post it's about some scammer trying to take someone for something.

What about anyone that knows any good reputable publishers for childrens books posting them. Maybe you already have, I don't have much time for reading all the forums.

Bonnie

Christine N.

06-24-2005, 07:56 PM

I've found, and others have said as well, that children's writing seems to be an animal of a different color. There aren't many agents who do rep it, and the ones that do have enormous client lists because there are so few.

Let's see, off the top of my head (and most of these take all genres, not just children)

Ethan Ellenberg (oh, to dream!)
Talcott Notch (their site just had a blurb that a children's client of theirs won an award)
Barbara Kouts
Barry Goldblatt (but he reported to SCWBI that he is no longer taking unsolicted ms's, query on novels only)
Jennifer Flannery

These are some of the ones I queried with my first book. I don't remember if they only take MG/YA or all children's, but most of them have sites you can look up.

I found that going direct to publishers (and lots of children's pubs take unsolicted things, except the big guys) was the easier route. I think most children's writers I've run across have had similar experiences.

Chin up Bonnie, all is not lost! SCBWI always has markets, and they also have editorial and agent members. If you can afford the membership fee for a year, I say do it.

James D. Macdonald

06-24-2005, 07:58 PM

Bonnie, go into any bookstore. Walk to the children's section. Find books like yours. Those publishers are real publishers. Write to them with an SASE for their guidelines, or find their guidelines on-line.

Take those guidelines and follow them to the letter.

If they say "no unsolicited" that means "query first."

If they say "no unagented," get an agent. Here's Everything You Wanted To Know About Literary Agents (http://www.neilgaiman.com/journal/2005/01/everything-you-wanted-to-know-about.asp).

While you're looking for an agent, write your next book, making it even better than your last one.

You might want to hook up with the Society of Children's Book Writers and Illustrators (http://www.scbwi.org/) (SCBWI).

D.J.

06-24-2005, 08:23 PM

Georgina, I see "Uncle Jim" asked the same question I had emailed to "Jill" of the Stylus Agency. Jill had sent me information letting me know I was being offered a contract provided I would agree to a "third party crititque." Then I was told they could recommend one of their "sister companies" who would do this for around $50-$100.
I wrote Jill back by hitting "reply" like this particular email requested and I even retyped in the addy as the earlier emails had requested to prevent your filters from claiming our communications. So, one way or the other my questions would have been recieved by your "organization(s)." As for the "filters" on my end, nothing has been captured from your "agency."
So, to my question now that you have been updated. How can a "third party critique" be done by a "sister company?" I also asked who they would be so that I could check out their credentials before I agreed. I let her know I had an inquisitive mind and some things needed answers before I felt comfortable with signing.
I have never gotten a reply. I think it is very odd that if I am indeed a writer who has shown them a promising ms that has commercial potential, and they have checked it out against their data bases of customer/buyers needs and now they believe they can sell it, isn't it strange that I can't get a response for a couple of questions?
Since you state that your agency answers all of your "authors" questions, I'd hate this to be the only black mark on your perfect record, so I'll await your response.

Cathy C

06-24-2005, 08:40 PM

Wow! For possibly the first time in my life, I'm nearly without words! TERRIFIC post, Jim, and thanks on behalf of all of the struggling writers out there who will gain by your wisdom.

I'd only add one comment to the mix:

Quote:
We actually have emails from the publisher complimenting us on the fair job we did for our author.

Really? Who?

Does it strike anyone else odd that a publisher would call an agent to compliment them on the negotiation? Shouldn't they, hmm . . . I don't know, maybe be on opposite sides? :box:

This sort of implies to me that the author got a really bad deal.

I agree with everything else said! :)

cwgranny

06-24-2005, 08:53 PM

What about anyone that knows any good reputable publishers for childrens books posting them. Maybe you already have, I don't have much time for reading all the forums. Bonnie

You might want to get the Children's Writers and Illustrator's Market (Alice Pope edits) or look at it in your local library (reference area). You can see plenty of publishers and listings of their recent books -- then check the books themselves in the children's section of the library to see what you think. They tell you what types of books they publish (and whether they only deal with agented writers) and you can see if you want to go the next step and send for guidelines.

Another source of children's publishers is http://www.cbcbooks.org/
You can see a list of CBC members along with websites, a brief mention of how they feel about submissions, and addresses. Then you can visit the website, make a list of the books and look at them at your local library.

There are many wonderful publishers but the ones that interest me may be completely different from the ones who interest you depending upon what kinds of books you write and for what age.

gran

James D. Macdonald

06-25-2005, 01:27 AM

For everyone's amusement, and not making any accusations at all, check this out:

http://www.immigration-world.com/index.html

Particularly, check out "Secret Address" here: http://www.immigration-world.com/interest/secret-eng.shtml

There you'll read:

Private, residential, secure address.

The addresses you will be given will be suitable either for business or personal mail. Actual mailing addresses are not included in here for security reasons. We do not use PO Box numbers.

We can also offer you mailing addresses abroad, prestigious for your business or where you can simply "virtually" relocate. The advantages of a foreign address are numerous.

Our Services Must NOT Be Used For Any Illegal Purposes!!!

...

• United States of America (New York) • Not available now!
Basic service covers:

you can choose from three prestigious New York locations
1001 Avenue of the Americas
1040 Avenue of the Americas or
275 Madison Avenue
Mail forwarding service
Office services
Basic cost: EUR 450/quarterly
Minimum deposit:( EUR 50 extra)
Mail forwarding, usually weekly, charged at postage costs.

Wow. 275 Madison Avenue, New York, NY.

Where have I seen that address before?

What an amazing coincidence!

LloydBrown

06-25-2005, 01:46 AM

Good bit of research.

victoriastrauss

06-25-2005, 06:27 AM

Talcott Notch (their site just had a blurb that a children's client of theirs won an award)Uh...yeah. For an unpublished novel.

If anyone is tempted to query Talcott Notch, it's worth checking out the discussion of this agency in the Bewares thread. Be that as it may, Talcott has sold no children's or YA books that I'm aware of.

- Victoria

victoriastrauss

06-25-2005, 06:45 AM

OK, I said I'd come up with some questions for Georgina, so here they are. Georgina, are you paying attention?

(Georgina, these are SPECIFIC questions, just as you requested. I know it was just an oversight that of all the many industry watchdogs you contacted offering to answer their questions in a public forum, you somehow never got in touch with me. But I'm not offended. Honest.)

(I'm not going to ask about sales, because Uncle Jim covered that. Besides, I already know the answer to that question.)

1. Is Writer's Literary and Publishing Services (the "sister" company you recommend for "independent 3rd party critiques") in fact owned by Robert Fletcher?

2. Is My Editor Is A Saint (another "sister" company that provides editing) in fact owned by Robert Fletcher?

3. If he doesn't own these companies, does he get a cut of their income?

4. Are you (meaning any of the agencies under the "umbrella" of The Literary Agency Group Inc.) offering vanity publishing deals to clients via Peter Parente's Tree of Life Publishing?

5. Is Robert Fletcher an owner or co-owner of Tree of Life Publishing?

6. If Robert Fletcher is not an owner or co-owner of Tree of Life Publishing, does he get a cut of the income from clients you steer into publishing deals?

7. What happened to the WGA number that Robert Fletcher inherited from Sid Buck, the original owner of Sydra-Techniques?

8. When will you be filing that lawsuit against me? My attorney wants to know.

That's enough for tonight. I'll see if I can think of more.

- Victoria

aka eraser

06-25-2005, 08:59 AM

Gee, I got that sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach that we just might not see Georgina again.

Lucky Penny

06-25-2005, 09:51 AM

This thread is INVALUABLE!! Not only as a warning about the Children's Literary Agency (which I truly appreciate,) but also as pure entertainment. :)

Uncle Jim? I nearly fell out of my chair!! :roll: I was laughing so hard at your very thorough response to Georgina's post, I was certain I'd wake my husband from a sound sleep!

It's been a rough week & I needed that, thanks!

Christine N.

06-25-2005, 03:54 PM

Oops, sorry about that Talcott Notch thing. My bad. They were just a name that popped into my head. I actually never queried them myself, I just remembered the blurb. I wasn't aware of their sales or lack thereof.

As always, you should do your own research when thinking of querying an agent or publisher.

Inspired

06-25-2005, 05:04 PM

Gee, I got that sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach that we just might not see Georgina again.

Aaah. But if you check her user information, you'll see that she was here yesterday around 5:00. We may never see her responses (which she claims is very rude) but I think she checks in occasionally.

James D. Macdonald

06-25-2005, 07:38 PM

You're right. Last activity for Georgina was yesterday at 6:02 pm.

Right now she's probably calling around trying to find someone in New York who'll visit 275 Madison Avenue to find the answers to my questions.

HapiSofi

06-25-2005, 11:54 PM

Uncle Jim, you rock! You rule! I take back everything I ever said about you being a non-flamer.

Mental note, never get into a fight with Uncle Jim.I'd say yes and no on that one. I wouldn't want to get into a fight with Jim because I just plain wouldn't want to; it would distress me too much. Also, I've met slabs of granite that were less stubborn.

On the other hand, if I had to have a fight with Jim, I'd go in knowing that he always fights fair, extends the other guy as much courtesy as he can muster, and only loses his temper about once a decade.

I'd always rather be on Jim's side. But I've often wished that my opponents in arguments were more like him.

HapiSofi

06-26-2005, 12:20 AM

Does it strike anyone else odd that a publisher would call an agent to compliment them on the negotiation? Shouldn't they, hmm . . . I don't know, maybe be on opposite sides? :box:

This sort of implies to me that the author got a really bad deal.Yes. Her remarks strike me as damned odd. However, I'm going to explain something else first.

The reason I find her remarks so dubious is not because the relationship between agents and publishers is necessarily so adversarial that neither side would ever acknowledge the other's virtues. Far from it.

I once heard an editor praise an agent at length, in the wake of a hard-fought auction where one bidder offered a higher price for the book, and another bidder responded with a huge package deal for that one plus the author's next three books that worked out to slightly less per book, but had other very desirable features. All sorts of issues got brought in: royalty rates, promotion budgets, accounting methods, author/editor compatibility, et cetera. That's just heinously complicated; and auctions move fast.

The agent never faltered. He knew exactly what he was doing, was scrupulously fair, never failed to let everyone involved know what was going on, understood the issues in depth, and was on top of the numbers the whole time. That last is the really impressive one.

IIRC, the editor who was singing this agent's praises was the one who'd just lost the auction. He wasn't happy about that; but it didn't keep him from noticing that the agent had turned in a virtuoso performance.

Publishers and editors recognize all sorts of virtues in agents: knowing the industry in detail. Being willing to work on coming up with solutions that benefit everyone. Knowing what's important and what isn't. Remembering favors done them as well as they remember favors they're owed. Being honest, thoughtful, prompt, sober, communicative, diligent, reliable, far-sighted, memorious, and polite. Understanding that the game only works if everybody wins, and that we share a common interest in profitable books and successful careers.

That's the thing I was going to explain first. Onward, then, to Georgina Orr's remarks, which don't sound the least little bit like an agent talking:We assisted every author with the contract on those 4 deals. We actually have emails from the publisher complimenting us on the fair job we did for our author. That just sounds weird. Doing a fair job for their clients is what agents are all about. That's like sending a thank-you not to a restaurant for serving you dinner.

Can I imagine any circumstances in which a publisher would send an agent e-mail complimenting them on the fair job they did for an author? Just barely -- and it only works if I imagine that this is a "publisher" who's so ignorant that he's never noticed there are unfair provisions in his standard contract, and so inexperienced that he thinks it's remarkable that an agent would question them.

These days, anyone can call himself a publisher. Just like anyone can call himself an agent.

Let's go through that whole paragraph of hers. But first, a word on language. There are two reasons why the exact language she uses is a significant diagnostic tool. One is that its assumptions and emphases tell us a lot -- more than she'd ever tell us directly -- about how she imagines agenting works.

The other reason to look closely at Georgina Orr's language is that she claims to work in the publishing industry, and to interact with other industry professionals on a constant basis. It is therefore reasonable for us to expect that she'll use the language of that industry, and to doubt her claims if she does not.

Here's her paragraph in full:We now have 4 deals. The most recent is with an UK publisher. (Note: because of the vitriolic people on these boards we don't post our deals because the instant we post a name, the really creepy and scary people that hate us start sending this crap to the posted name. We've got the documents and if ever needed our lawyers can pull them out.) We assisted every author with the contract on those 4 deals. We actually have emails from the publisher complimenting us on the fair job we did for our author. Yes, in two of the deals the author found the relationship, and in two of them, we found the relationship. In all 4 deals we provided SIGNIFICANT value to the contract negotiation and the post-publishing support. The thing that is lost in all this is that very, very few literary agents have even one deal under their belt. Also, we did a measurement in April and we had 68 open and active discussions with buyers about our authors' work. We expect a few more deals by the end of the year. You might also be interested to note that we also find really bad contracts for our authors and we recommend that they don't accept them. We've seen more contracts than anyone you know and we bring that expertise to our clients.Have at you, Georgina:

1."We now have 4 deals." Nothing could make it clearer that these guys aren't legit, given that they've been in business for seven years and have multiple employees. No way are the commissions off four minor sales enough to keep a whole agency afloat -- and even if we take their claims at face value, that's a stunningly low success rate. Books get bought out of the slush pile far oftener than these guys make a sale.

2. "The most recent is with an UK publisher. (Note: because of the vitriolic people on these boards we don't post our deals because the instant we post a name, the really creepy and scary people that hate us start sending this crap to the posted name." The one and only way an agent can establish legitimacy is by making legitimate deals. If an agent whose legitimacy has been questioned responds by saying he or she has too made deals, but (for any reason imaginable) can't say what those deals are, they're not a legit agent.

The same goes for agents who say they do too have selling clients, but that who they are is a secret. An agent is an author's public representative. Their relationship cannot be secret.

As for the "creepy and scary people" who supposedly send nastygrams to participants in the deals she makes? A complete lie. It's never happened. The real reason this band of career criminals consistently refuses to talk about the deals they've supposedly made is that those deals mostly don't exist, and the few that do are risibly puny.

If you're an author, there's nothing good these guys can do for you.

3. "We've got the documents and if ever needed our lawyers can pull them out.)" They have no documents, because none were ever written or sent. They don't have lawyers, either, unless you count Robert Fletcher's defense lawyer.

Fletcher's bunch are in the habit of hinting at or threatening legal action. They don't know any law, and they never act on their threats. They don't even keep track of which threats they've made. You'll probably have noticed Victoria blowing raspberries at them for their latest mutterings about lawsuits. Feel free to join in. It's safe, it's fun.

4. "We assisted every author with the contract on those 4 deals." A real agent would never say that. First, contract negotiations are so basic a part of what agents do that a real agent wouldn't think it needed to be said at all. Second, agents don't "assist with" contracts. They negotiate contracts. This is one of the most important tasks they handle for their clients. They oversee the process, and have quite a lot of control over it. They don't just lend a hand. Third, and laying aside all her other grammatical infelicities, a literary agent would say each author, not every author.

5. "...complimenting us on the fair job we did for our author." See above. Also, Publishers and editors say "our author." Agents will sometimes say "our author," but they're likelier to say "our client."

6. "Yes, in two of the deals the author found the relationship, and in two of them, we found the relationship." Found the relationship? Malarkey. Literary agents make submissions. They receive offers. They enter into negotiations. They make deals. They go to contract. They do and say lots of other things. But describe their deals in terms of "finding the relationship," they do not do.

By the way, what Georgina is actually saying there is that in half of all the deals they've ever made, the client had already submitted the book and gotten the offer of a contract before the agency was involved. That leaves them with a record of two sales in seven years. No wonder they're always going on about how hard it is to sell books: they're mind-bogglingly bad at it.

7. "In all 4 deals we provided SIGNIFICANT value to the contract negotiation and the post-publishing support." See above, point #4. This is an even bigger smoking gun. To reiterate my earlier point, real agents don't lend their authors a hand while the authors conduct contract negotiations. Real agents negotiate the contracts. And again, providing services that are of vaue during contract negotiations, and doing post-publishing support, are so completely basic to the job of being an agent that they ought to go without saying. Georgina thinks they're noteworthy because she has no idea how agenting works. That's because she's not an agent.

8. "The thing that is lost in all this is that very, very few literary agents have even one deal under their belt." The smoking guns get bigger, and have more bullets in their clips. Georgina Orr has been keeping very bad company.

The way real agents learn their trade is by working for other real agents. They come up through a professional world where an agent is someone who sells books to publishers, articles to magazines, or screenplays to studios. That's not all they do, but it's central: agents sell. For them, class of people who don't make sales isn't "literary agents." It's "people who call themselves agents," or "people who want to be agents,"

If your internal picture of "literary agents" is primarily composed of people who've never made a sale, or who've only made one or two sales, you don't hail from the Land of the Real Agents.

9. "Also, we did a measurement in April and we had 68 open and active discussions with buyers about our authors' work. We expect a few more deals by the end of the year." As various people here have pointed out, most recently and emphatically Uncle Jim, this means eactly nothing. Fletcher & Co. are forever claiming to have some large number of deals under discussion, but they never pan out.

What can this mean? Possibly that they're lying. Possibly that by "discussions" they just mean they've submitted stuff, though that's hardly the same thing. And possibly it means that they're the most stupendously bad salesmen in the history of publishing. They'd have to be doing something awful if they're managing to have that many discussions not turn into any sales at all.

But you know what? They're not the worst salesmen in publishing history. If they had that many discussions going with people who have the authority to acquire books, but they never wound up making a deal, they'd be the talk of publishing. They aren't.

10. "You might also be interested to note that we also find really bad contracts for our authors and we recommend that they don't accept them." This is a new boast they've added to their repertoire. I think it's because they've noticed white hat scamhunters like Ann and Victoria and Jim recommending that authors not accept bad contracts, so they've decided to claim they do it too. And why not? It's an easy claim to make, and since it leaves no physical evidence either way, you can't prove they're not actually doing it.

11. "We've seen more contracts than anyone you know and we bring that expertise to our clients." Nope. People who don't make deals don't see contracts. Also, I've seen them make too many blunders to believe they know from publishing contracts, or publishing law. They've got no expertise at anything but running con games.

Thus for one of Georgina Orr's paragraphs. She doesn't work in publishing, she doesn't work with publishing people, she doesn't know jack about publishing. She also has no history and no independent existence. Nevertheless, Fletcher & Co. vouch for her. That doesn't establish her credit. It just confirms them for the cynical liars that they are.

(Are you listening, Georgina? You claim to be a literary agent. Here, the word for world is word. Come back and dance with me some more.)

victoriastrauss

06-26-2005, 12:29 AM

5. "...complimenting us on the fair job we did for our author." See above. Also, Publishers and editors say "our author." Agents will sometimes say "our author," but they're likelier to say "our client."Hey. Give her credit for spelling "compliment" right.

- Victoria

Richard

06-26-2005, 12:31 AM

I concur. Something about all that just didn't jive.

Let us correct this:

In mah' role as de VP uh Co'po'ate Affairs fo' de Literary Agency Group ah' am keen t'respond t'de postin's on dis message bo'd. Some uh ya' may know me in mah' oda' role, as de Senio' Agent fo' our children's division (De Children's Literary Agency). Again, in our determinashun t'minimize administrashun costs, one o' two uh de sucka'nel widin our o'ganizashun is ax'ed t'wear mo'e dan one hat. Man! Wid dat introducshun, ah' apologize in advance fo' de lengd uh dis postin'. De Literary Agency Group be keenly aware uh de negative messages on dese bo'ds and frankly we is concerned by dem as well. Please allow me t'cut ya' our analysis uh de situashun and some suggesshun about how t'proceed.

Hmmm. Maybe that should have been Elmer FUD.

De second categowy awe peopwe that have wowked wif us, fow whom we haven't been successfuw, and they awe bwamefuw, pointing fingews, etc. Basicawwy just jumping on the bandwagon because they wouwd wathew feew 'took' than acknowwedge that theiw wowk wasn't good enough to seww. We caww this the souw gwapes cwowd.

Come on back, Georgina. Everyone really, really wants to hear the answers to all these questions you promised to answer. You wouldn't want new authors to think you can't be trusted to keep your word, right?

James D. Macdonald

06-26-2005, 02:21 AM

It's an easy claim to make, and since it leaves no physical evidence either way, you can't prove they're not actually doing it.

I'm not 100% certain we can't show they're blowing smoke. Take the number of authors who a) claim they were/are represented by ST Literary Agency and/or one of its spinoffs, and check whether those authors have published through pay-to-play vanities, disguised vanities, very minor startup presses, or e-publishers in the recent past.

Recall that Bobby claims that if a client gets tired of waiting and decides to self-publish that he'll coach 'em through that, too. That strikes me as using every part of the pig except the squeal.

James D. Macdonald

06-26-2005, 09:58 AM

I looked through the big ST Literary/Stylus Literary thread for names of clients and titles of books that ST/Stylus/The Literary Agency Group claims to have sold.

=====================

Denise Becker Shades of Brown Genesis Press

The author sold this book herself.

William Powell The Road to Hebron The Lighthouse Press

Not listed at Amazon.com, not listed at bn.com, no used copies at bookfinder.com, only Google hits are to the thread at AW. No evidence this book was ever printed. The Lighthouse Press is a microscopic local press located five miles from Boca Raton.

Paul Anderson The future of Customer Service Doyle Printing & Press

Self or vanity published before Fletcher took over ST.

Pastor Billy Crone A Marriage Built to Last Mapletree

A startup LDS publisher, may not pay an advance. I don't know if Pastor Billy sold the book himself or not.

Victor Stenger Where Do the Laws of Physics Come From Prometheus Books

Stenger has been selling physics books to Prometheus on a regular basis since 1988. I don't know how ST was involved in this sale.

Dario Castagno Too Much Tuscan Sun Globe Pequot

The author sold the book himself.

Clients who gave testimonials (4/7/04):

Michael Sears

As of April a year ago, Mr. Sears claimed he hadn't sold anything (though he did give ST a testimonial). No one named Michael Sears appears to have a book published or scheduled since then.

Rev. Amy Snow, MA

Rev. Snow vanity-published a book with Trafford in 2002. Nothing since.

Carl Bell

Carl Bell is a common name. As of April '04 (according to Fletcher's letter) Bell hadn't yet sold a book. I am unable to find any books by a Carl Bell published after April '04 except where the auhor had previously published. The only Carl Bell whose works didn't include some that predate ST's foundation brought out his works through 1st Books Library (a vanity POD) in 2003.

Gary Dover (screenplays)

No one named Gary Dover is listed as a screenwriter at imdb.com.

Clients listed at ST's website:

Michele Campanelli

Short stories to the Chicken Soup books (no agent needed). All her other works are vanity POD or non-advance-paying e-books, or predate ST's founding.

Appeared at Writers.net and Speculations.com to defend ST, and claimed to be clients:

Jackson Compton (5/18/04)
Melvin Wilson
Stratton Jones

No apparent sales.

Identified at "leading clients":

Paul Anderson, Denise Becker, Michele Campanelli...

See above.

=============

Georgina Orr claims that The Literary Agency Group has four "deals," of which the authors made two.

The only four that could fit are:

Denise Becker
Dario Castagno
Pastor Billy Crone
Victor Stenger

We know that Denise Becker and Dario Castagno sold their own books. Therefore, Pastor Billy Crone's book and Victor Stenger's book must be the ones that LAG's claiming for their own.

A sale to a startup that doesn't pay an advance and doesn't require an agent, and a sale in a continuing series that predates ST's creation by a decade. I find both of those very hard to believe as credits to LAG.

So, how about it, Robert Fletcher, Georgina Orr, or anyone else from ST/Stylus/Literary Agency Group? Are those the books you're claiming you sold? Give us some titles, authors, publishers, and dates.

========================

In other news, on the mail-forwarding front:

Corporate Suites: (http://www.corporatesuitesllc.com/parttime.htm)

Virtual Office Solutions
Corporate Suites offers Virtual Office Solutions for businesses that require all services of our full time office clients but do not require a full time office space. We offer a selection a prestigious business addresses, phone service with live reception answering in your business name or voicemail service, handling and forwarding your mail anywhere in the world so that your clients may use one central address as well as offering you all of our business services when you are in New York including access to our fully equipped conference facilities, lounge and common areas as well as support from our staff.

Our Virtual Office Solutions are popular with home-based professionals who desire a professional address and corporate facilities to meet their clients, out-of-state or international businesses who require a meeting place and business address in New York and traveling professionals who are rarely in New York.

Pay particular attention to the list of prestigious New York addresses (http://www.corporatesuitesllc.com/Locations.htm) available. Yep, it's our old friend 275 Madison Avenue (http://www.corporatesuitesllc.com/275_Mad.htm).

And wow, look at that: the Fourth Floor (http://www.corporatesuitesllc.com/Floor%20Plans/275-4fl.jpg).

Almost spooky, isn't it?

Bobby, did you think no one would notice?

HapiSofi

06-26-2005, 06:08 PM

Nicely nailed, Jim: the address is a glorified mail drop, and the sales range from paltry to fictional.

I think we're well on our way to proving that those "independent" third-party evaluations funnel their fees straight back to Sydra/S.T./Stylus, LAG, and Robert Fletcher.

All the barrel-scraping research you've done on them -- which you're good at, and have been doing for some time now -- has yielded a very short list of fictional sales, sales to vanity publishers, and other very minor sales. (The Chicken Soup series is a nontrivial commercial property, but individual sales to it are small.)

Could there be some significant body of sales we don't know about? I don't think so. Recall that Robert Fletcher was so chuffed about that one little sale to Pequot that he posted a scan of the acceptance letter (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/printthread.php?t=529&page=6&pp=40). That's first-sale behavior. Maybe it wasn't his first sale. Maybe it was his second sale, or his third. But when you see a reaction like that, you know his sales have been small and few.

A further thing we know, looking at your list, is that there's no way the agent commissions from those books would be enough to maintain even a very modest office -- and that's assuming nobody in that office is getting paid. Neither would those commissions be enough to support a single person, even a very frugal one who has a vegetable garden and only uses mass transit.

What do we know about Fletcher's oft-renamed business?

It's been going for seven years.
It has multiple employees.
It has telephones.
It takes out ads, online and in national magazines.
It has developed a sophisticated set of form letters.
It has a complex computer system, and may use proprietary software.
It's run out of Boca Raton, but has a pied a terre on Madison Ave.

If you can think of any other evident operating expense of theirs that I've forgotten to list, please mention it.

Robert Fletcher's business is supporting itself, and it has to have some significant expenses. It's also supporting one or more people in sufficient style to keep them sounding arrogant, and to see them through the ups and downs that must inevitably have come along over that many years. If you're a truly marginal operation, sooner or later something will come along that puts you out of business and/or forces you to get a real job. If you stay in as long and as consistently as Fletcher has, you've got some real cash flow going.

And yet, the only legitimate income from his agenting is completely inadequate to support his evident expenses. He must therefore be making his money from some other facet of his business.

With LAG, the point at which money changes hands is when clients pay for "evaluations." May we not then conclude that the fees for those evaluations must be going to Fletcher & Co.?

James D. Macdonald

06-26-2005, 07:28 PM

HapiSofi

06-26-2005, 07:36 PM

If you can think of any other evident operating expense of theirs that I've forgotten to list, please mention it.
Those world-famous lawyers of his. The ones he claims to keep on retainer.

Booths at the BEA and Frankfurt Book Fair.Having a presence at the BEA and the Frankfurt Book Fair costs serious money.

I think we can ignore his lawyer, though. The guy never seems to take on any cases.

LloydBrown

06-26-2005, 08:19 PM

It has multiple employees.
I would call them partners in scam. They have to be aware that Fletcher doesn't actually sell anything to publishers.

It has telephones.
I had a thought on this. I don't think he has a separate office. I think he runs this scam from his home. That explains why he so vociferously avoids direct phone contact with clients and how he's able to keep the scam going. He has a day job. He might even be participating at this alleged job.

It has developed a sophisticated set of form letters. Form letters don't take any money to develop. At most, they take time. He just kept the first lie he made up and might have made minor changes since then.

It has a complex computer system, and may use proprietary software. What are you basing this on? I haven't seen anything to indicate he's not using a $500 eMachine. It might be there; I just haven't seen it.

James D. Macdonald

06-26-2005, 08:29 PM

I had a thought on this. I don't think he has a separate office. I think he runs this scam from his home.

I think it's pretty clear that he does. One of the services that Corporate Suites offers is to answer the phone in your company's name, then patch the call to your voice mailbox.

It has a complex computer system, and may use proprietary software.

What are you basing this on? I haven't seen anything to indicate he's not using a $500 eMachine. It might be there; I just haven't seen it.

We know the name of the company that set it up. Zephyr Associates and Partners (www.zap-inc.com (http://www.zap-inc.com/)), claimed that Sydra Techniques had boosted their income into the seven figure range thanks to their automated call-back management system.

James D. Macdonald

06-26-2005, 09:50 PM

One more specific question for Georgina (if she ever comes back):

What is the exact nature of the relationship between The Literary Agency Group, its principals and subsidiaries, and The Lighthouse Press of Deerfield Beach, FL, its principals and subsidiaries?

LloydBrown

06-26-2005, 10:30 PM

I think it's pretty clear that he does. One of the services that Corporate Suites offers is to answer the phone in your company's name, then patch the call to your voice mailbox.

Which could easily be a separate phone line at his home.

We know the name of the company that set it up. Zephyr Associates and Partners (www.zap-inc.com (http://www.zap-inc.com/)), claimed that Sydra Techniques had boosted their income into the seven figure range thanks to their automated call-back management system.

Well, there pretty firmly pegs that one.

Cathy C

06-26-2005, 11:31 PM

A couple of additions to the information here (since I like researching stuff too! :D)

S T Literary Agency, Inc. has a brand new physical address, effective January, 2005. Keep an eye out for this one:

851 SW 7TH ST.BOCA RATON FL 33486 Along with a new Post office mailing address of:

P.O. BOX 272503BOCA RATON FL 33427 According to the Florida Secretary of State, Robert M. Fletcher is either a principal officer or registered agent for the following corporations (with the same addresses). These might explain where some of the money came from in years past.

S T Literary Agency, Inc., (SW 7th St. address) - active
RapidResumeBuilder, Inc. (SW 8th Terrace address) - inactive
Robert Fletcher, Inc. (SW 8th Terrace) - inactive
Internet-In-A-Box.com, Inc. (SW 8th Terrace) - inactive
Zephyr Associates & Partners, Inc. (SW 8th Terrace) - active
ATM Management Services, Inc. (two doors down from the Lighthouse Press address in Lighthouse Point, FL. Hmmm...) - inactive

And, although Children's Literary Agency, Inc. (a division of the Literary Agency Group, Inc.) holds themselves out to be a New York corporation, they aren't listed in the rolls with the Secretary of State --- even as a dissolved corporation. Just something to think about. If they lie about their status, what else might they lie about as well?

Oh, and according to the New York Assessor's website, the tenant of the 4th & 6th floors of 275 Madison Street is Alliance Business Center. Wander over to their website to have a look around, http://www.abcn.com/executive-suites/NY.html

http://www.abcn.com/images/loc_box_cl.gifhttp://www.abcn.com/images/loc_box_tbg.gifhttp://www.abcn.com/images/loc_box_cr.gifhttp://www.abcn.com/images/loc_box_lbg.gifhttp://www.abcn.com/images/spacer.gifAddress

275 Madison Avenue
4th and 6th Floor
New York NY 10018

Main Tel: 800-869-9595 (within U.S.) 1-714-437-5551

http://www.abcn.com/images/view_detail_off.gif (http://www.abcn.com/executive-suites/new-york/2059.shtml)
http://www.abcn.com/images/save4review_off.gif (http://www.abcn.com/register.php?CID=2059&mode=save)

http://www.abcn.com/images/spacer.gifhttp://www.abcn.com/images/spacer.gifhttp://www.abcn.com/images/photos/2059_275_newyork.jpg (http://www.abcn.com/executive-suites/new-york/2059.shtml)http://www.abcn.com/images/spacer.gifhttp://www.abcn.com/images/spacer.gif
http://www.abcn.com/images/loc_box_rbg.gifhttp://www.abcn.com/images/spacer.gif

My little contribution of the day... :banana:

LloydBrown

06-26-2005, 11:34 PM

We know the name of the company that set it up. Zephyr Associates and Partners (www.zap-inc.com (http://www.zap-inc.com/)), claimed that Sydra Techniques had boosted their income into the seven figure range thanks to their automated call-back management system.

Sunbiz.org is the place to search for publicly available information on Florida businesses.

Florida has no record of the following fictitious names: Literary Agency Group, Stylus Literary Agency, Christian Literary Agency, Children's Literary Agency.

It has no record of any fictitious names held by Robert Fletcher (with or without any initials).

Glantz & Glantz do not appear to be registered agents for any of the related companies. However, Fletcher, Robert is the registered agent for S. T. Literary Agency, and his personal information seems to be available through that listing.

Also, I checked out the other Fletcher, Roberts, just in case. Sure enough, Zephyr Associates & Partners, Inc. is also owned by the same Robert Fletcher!

!

So you're using a claim that he made about a sale to himself to support a statement he made.

In fact, here's a quote from the page "To quote my dear friend and author Paul Anderson, "tough times and brutal markets naturally weed out superficial enterprises".

We know that name from ST's supposed client list.

It's obviously another scam. He even lies on this site, to wit: "Zephyr has been incorporated and in business since 1997." Strange, since the Division of Corporations lists the registration date as 1999. In fact, check out his "teams" that work for the client. One of the links requires authorization, one leads to a site about business entry into Japan, and the last is dead.

At least there's a contact number on the contact page.

James D. Macdonald

06-26-2005, 11:51 PM

Well, that explains why the Zephyr page (http://www.zap-inc.com/index.asp?cat=29972) and the infamous Online Pitch Pages (http://www.stauthor.com/6044/JacquelineYohe.htm) look so similar.

I think, though, that digging around would find that Zephyr was an independent company hired by Fletcher to do his business development, that Fletcher subsequently bought.

I wonder if the folks who do RICO investigations would be interested in taking a look at Fletcher and his business dealings.

James D. Macdonald

06-27-2005, 01:19 AM

Another couple of specific questions for Georgina:

Robert Fletcher has claimed to be a Chemical Engineer.

(See, for example, here (http://web.archive.org/web/20020125094842/http://www.zap-inc.com/).)

Where did he earn his degree? What year?

HapiSofi

06-27-2005, 04:06 PM

I'd wondered about the relationship between Zephyr Associates & Partners and Sydra/Fletcher; the former's website quotes their dear friend and author Paul Anderson (http://www.zap-inc.com/index.asp?cat=29980).

Lloyd, form letters take work. They're a finicky and demanding variety of copywriting. A really good form letter is a work of art, and a powerful tool.

The trick is to write form letters that cover almost all circumstances, get the desired response from the recipient, and don't sound like form letters. We've seen the text of Fletcher's initial letter to people who submit their work. The people who've reproduced it for us aren't stupid, and they're certainly not illiterate, but right off the top of my head I can't think of a single one of them who immediately realized, upon receiving it, that it was a form letter. It read to them as a plausible and promising response to their submission.

This is why I keep telling Dave Kuzminski that one of the most effective projects P&E could take on would be a series of pages, organized by scammer, that collects and displays all known varieties of their correspondence. Not only would it be educational, but it would destroy much of the letters' value. Authors who'll work hard to interpret a scam agent's form letter as a unique and personal communication would have a different take on it if they could see that the exact same letter goes out to everyone the agent deals with.

Georgina Orr

06-28-2005, 07:16 PM

In response to the reactions that my posting ofl ast week has generated.....

LAG is a privately owned company and our business model is working for our authors. We are more concerned about the authors that we are currently representing than we are about people who choose to make defamatory statements about us and so I am not prepared to waste time replying to any of these posts which do no more than nit pick. It is unlikely that I will attempt to carry on a meaningful discussion with people who have already made up their mind.

My time, and my company's time is better spent selling and pitching for our authors.

Sincerely yours,
Georgina Orr, VP Corporate Affairs
Literary Agency Group

Roger J Carlson

06-28-2005, 07:20 PM

Richard

06-28-2005, 07:37 PM

Nobody asked for a meaningful discussion, Georgie-poo. Merely the answers to questions you promised you'd answer, and not even holding your pathetic attempts to rewrite peoples' criticisms against you. Much. How much more generous can a forum be? If you want to find one that will actually take your comical excuse for a rebuttal seriously, try www.ispentmywholechildhoodeatingpaintchips.com.

We are more concerned about the authors that we are currently representing than we are about people who choose to make defamatory statements about us

And we pity them for it.

DaveKuzminski

06-28-2005, 07:47 PM

one of the most effective projects P&E could take on would be a series of pages, organized by scammer, that collects and displays all known varieties of their correspondence. Not only would it be educational, but it would destroy much of the letters' value. Authors who'll work hard to interpret a scam agent's form letter as a unique and personal communication would have a different take on it if they could see that the exact same letter goes out to everyone the agent deals with.

HapiSofi, I would gladly set up such a section if writers will provide me with copies of those letters. Since many of the scammers are using email now, it should be easy. However, a lot of writers aren't keeping the letters by saving those to their hard drives. By the time they think to contact P&E, their email program has deleted the letter for being too old.

Of course, if some writers would like to write to those agencies and then forward the responses to me, I'll get started. Anyone want to volunteer on this project? When you forward it to me, mention in your text or subject line that it's for publication in P&E.

aka eraser

06-28-2005, 08:33 PM

Bloodied and bowed, Georgina slinks away, muttering to herself - "But Bobby always said that 'Bullshit baffles brains'...."

James D. Macdonald

06-28-2005, 08:54 PM

First, let me remind Georgina of one thing she said in her first post:

WE HAVE CONTACTED THESE PEOPLE NUMEROUS TIMES AND OFFERED TO ANSWER THEIR QUESTIONS ON A PUBLIC FORUM FOR THE BEST INTEREST OF THE INDUSTRY AND THE WRITERS. They have refused or ignored our requests. What does that tell you?

Now....

In response to the reactions that my posting ofl ast week has generated.....

Looking forward to your response, Georgina!
LAG is a privately owned company and our business model is working for our authors.Outstanding! Could you name some of the authors it's worked for?

No, wait, I've found some.... a list of more books allegedly sold by Children's Literary Agency!

Some books we've sold are: The Worry Stone and Fiddlin' Sam, for Marianna Dengler. Gift of the Dove and a four-book series, Tales From the Bayou, for Betty Hager. Twin Pickle, for Ann Doro.
This comes from http://www.writers.net/forum/read.php?f=10&i=125162&t=125097

Interestingly, Georgina here claimed that they'd sold four books (and the authors had sold two of them), but here this other representative of CLA was claiming eight books.

Well, let's see what we've got:

The Worry Stone by Marianna Dengler, Rising Moon Books, 1996
Fiddlin' Sam by Marianna Dengler, Rising Moon Books, 1999

Gift of the Dove by Betty Hager, Zondervan, 1991
Old Jake and the Pirates Treasure (Tales from the Bayou #1) by Betty Hager, Zondervan, 1994
Marcie and the Shrimp Boat Adventure (Tales from the Bayou #2) by Betty Hager, Zondervan, 1994
Miss Tilly and the Haunted Mansion (Tales from the Bayou #3) by Betty Hager, Zondervan, 1994
Marcy and the Monster of the Bayou (Tales from the Bayou #4) by Betty Hager, Zondervan, 1994

Twin Pickle by Ann Doro, Henry Holt and Company, 1996

Hmmm....those books were all published long before Children's Literary Agency was founded. All but one were published before Sydra Techniques was founded.

It looks very much as if Children's Literary Agency had nothing to do with selling any of them.

We are more concerned about the authors that we are currently representing than we are about people who choose to make defamatory statements about us and so I am not prepared to waste time replying to any of these posts which do no more than nit pick.Nothing more than nit pick? I'd think that "You've never sold a book to anyone in your life, you're lying about where your office is located, and your boss is an adjudged scammer" are a bit more than "nit picks."

It is unlikely that I will attempt to carry on a meaningful discussion with people who have already made up their mind.But you can change my mind, Georgina! And how about the lurkers, the people who come here to research Children's Literary Agency. You can answer the SPECIFC questions, like you promised!
My time, and my company's time is better spent selling and pitching for our authors.
Is it really? I mean, c'mon, if you were spending your time pitching and selling your authors you'd have sold one or two of them by now, wouldn't you?

Listen: You say you have those 68 "open discusssions" going. If you were just batting .100 (and being in severe danger of getting sent back to the minors) you'd sell 7 of 'em by the end of the year. That would be close to twice as many as you claim you've made in your history. How about it, Georgina, come back next year and tell us about your six or seven new sales this year. I mean, you're devoting your time and your company's time to selling them....

Unless you're a total fraud and con artist, that is.

Sincerely yours,
Georgina Orr, VP Corporate Affairs
Literary Agency GroupG'bye, Georgina. And here I thought you wanted to set the record straight. After all, those other message boards (that you are unwilling or unable to name) delete your posts and block your rebuttal posts. Why not take this golden opportunity?

For the record, here are some of the SPECIFIC questions (as she demanded) that Georgina won't/can't answer:

How much does your typical client wind up spending?
What are the names of your agents?
What is their prior experience in publishing?
How many sales have you made to commercial publishing houses? Please give the names of the authors, the titles of the books,and the publishing houses they were sold to.
Isn't the main, number one complaint people seem to have that they can't find any evidence of you guys selling a book?
Wouldn't the best way to take the wind out of the sails of the "creepy and scary" people be to prove that you've sold a book somewhere, to someone?
Which editors do you work with most often? Which do you know best?
What is the name of the publisher who complimented you on the "fair job" you did for your author?
How can a "third party critique" be done by a "sister company?"
Is Writer's Literary and Publishing Services (the "sister" company you recommend for "independent 3rd party critiques") in fact owned by Robert Fletcher?
Is My Editor Is A Saint (another "sister" company that provides editing) in fact owned by Robert Fletcher?
If he doesn't own these companies, does he get a cut of their income?
Are you (meaning any of the agencies under the "umbrella" of The Literary Agency Group Inc.) offering vanity publishing deals to clients via Peter Parente's Tree of Life Publishing?
Is Robert Fletcher an owner or co-owner of Tree of Life Publishing?
If Robert Fletcher is not an owner or co-owner of Tree of Life Publishing, does he get a cut of the income from clients you steer into publishing deals?
What is the exact nature of the relationship between The Literary Agency Group, its principals and subsidiaries, and The Lighthouse Press of Deerfield Beach, FL, its principals and subsidiaries?
With which publishers have you made deals?
Why is it that real agents make it so easy to find them? Why do they announce their deals? Why do they post their addresses and phone numbers? Why don't you?
"Pulling their own weight"? "Something for nothing"? Shouldn't words like 'quality' or 'marketability' be putting in something of an appearance there?
Isn't it true that Children's Literary Agency was created solely to take some heat off Stylus (ST) Literary Agency?
Isn't it a fact that no one knows you in any role?
Are you aware that Writer Beware and Preditors & Editors don't sell ads?
"People ...for whom" you "haven't been successful" is "nearly everyone," isn't it?
Do you ask your writers to pay an editing fee most times?
Is four deals in seven years what you're boasting of?
Given that fifty percent of that four deals you claim were made by the authors themselves: What did they need you for?
Do you offer a contract to everyone who writes to you?
What's your physical address?
Where is the New York office?
What's your phone number?
Who are your neighbors on the left and right?
Could you please describe the sign in the lobby of your building? What material is it made of? Where's it located?
Where is the security guard's station?
What do you see directly across the street when you walk out of the building's lobby?
What happened to the WGA number that Robert Fletcher inherited from Sid Buck, the original owner of Sydra-Techniques?
When will you be filing that lawsuit against Victoria?
Robert Fletcher has claimed to be a Chemical Engineer. Where did he earn his degree? What year?

PattiTheWicked

06-28-2005, 10:31 PM

James D. Macdonald

06-28-2005, 10:36 PM

You'd think that the answers to the main questions wouldn't take her more than a minute. The titles, authors, and publishers of books they've sold should be right at the tips of her fingers.

Roger J Carlson

06-28-2005, 10:42 PM

I'm not sure why they periodically post on the boards to defend themselves. They always come off looking like prize chumps.

MadScientistMatt

06-28-2005, 11:02 PM

I'm not sure why they periodically post on the boards to defend themselves. They always come off looking like prize chumps.

Possible theories:

1. They are so used to sending "Do not take that tone with us" sort of letters to their clients that they think it is possible to do the same thing to a message board of critics.
2. They theorize that if they can attract one client dumb enough to read their claims online and apply, they've made an easy "editing fee." Not bad for a few minutes' work.
3. They really are prize chumps.

AnneMarble

06-28-2005, 11:10 PM

You'd think that the answers to the main questions wouldn't take her more than a minute. The titles, authors, and publishers of books they've sold should be right at the tips of her fingers.
Maybe they can't remember which books they claimed to have sold in their latest B.S. After all, didn't one of the ST "subsidiaries" post something on their web page or in their contract where they forgot to change the name of the agency in one paragraph? If they can't keep track of their own company name, how can they keep track of which "books" they claim to have sold? :)

James D. Macdonald

06-28-2005, 11:52 PM

Maybe they can't remember which books they claimed to have sold in their latest B.S.

In that case my periodic round-ups of what they've claimed to have sold should be a blessing for them.

How about it, Bobby -- put me on your staff?

I do wonder about that claim of a recent sale in the UK. Do they think that England is so far away that no one can check?

DaveKuzminski

06-29-2005, 04:09 AM

The first two, dedicated to Bouncin' Bobby, will go online either tomorrow or the day after. Personally, I'm shooting for tomorrow.

Gindee77

07-10-2005, 03:49 AM

AngelaVB

07-13-2005, 12:00 PM

Well, you and I are in the same pickle. I just choose right now to look on the bright side of things. As soon as I find some brightness I will et you know. You see, I too have engaged in the Children's Literary Agency jorney. Before I did I called the author up of the book Peeper and Friends and asked him to be frank with me on the real deal with the agency. He sounded very sincere and told me that people do sound like yourself (skeptical) but he says he makes more than the amount they put on the screen but they thought no one would believe them so they set a lower "see for yourelf" price. I did pull up his site and he does travel to a lot of places and sounds more than happy to tell you about his endeavors. He was really nice!

I chose to give them a try. As long as they don't ask me for outrageous amounts of money, I can count this as is an experience that will help better define me . What won't kill me will make me more knowledgable. Great writers in thier pasts, have been taken for a loop, but the greats learned from it, (maybe griped) and then just did great things. Emma, I think you can either try them or move on to someone who gives you a better feeling. No matter what you decide I am sure if great is in you, then you will do Great Things! Good Luck.

AngelaVB

07-13-2005, 12:11 PM

I think that it's pretty silly to talk about someone's spell check on a something that was worth your while to read. Also why say something bad all the time? There were many mistakes Einstien made too, but then did you ever know of a genuis that made not a single mistake? Besides God?

JennaGlatzer

07-13-2005, 01:05 PM

Hi Angela,

I'm sure you're a nice person and I wish you well with your dreams. I understand that it's very tempting to want to think well of anyone who seems to appreciate your writing, but please understand that there are sharks in the literary waters and you've just run into one of the biggest.

As long as they don't ask me for outrageous amounts of money...

No, Angela, please revise that. As long as they don't ask you for any money. If you can read all you've read here and still want to sign with this "agency," fine. It's kind of like visiting prison to find a husband, but whatever. You have to learn your lessons the way you choose to learn your lessons. But don't add money to the equation.

Legitimate agents DO NOT CHARGE WRITERS for editing, evaluation, marketing, retainers, websites... the way real agents make money is by keeping a percentage of the money when the book sells. An "agent" who takes your money before the book sells doesn't need to bother trying to sell the book. He just needs to find lots of writers with big hopes and dreams and no street-smarts.

I don't know where the spell-check comment came from, but we do mention spelling here sometimes because it's one of the tools a writer needs to understand if that writer wants to sell his or her writing. All writers make a few typos here and there, but please don't believe that you can ignore basic spelling/grammar rules. Editors will care. Readers will care. Legitimate agents will care.

Richard

07-13-2005, 03:35 PM

efore I did I called the author up of the book Peeper and Friends and asked him to be frank with me on the real deal with the agency. He sounded very sincere and told me that people do sound like yourself (skeptical) but he says he makes more than the amount they put on the screen but they thought no one would believe them so they set a lower "see for yourelf" price. I did pull up his site and he does travel to a lot of places and sounds more than happy to tell you about his endeavors. He was really nice!

He also self-published.

Roger J Carlson

07-13-2005, 05:33 PM

Hi Angela,

Since this thread and the ST Literary thread (in Bewares and Background Checks) are inextricably linked, you really should read that thread as well:

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=529&page=1&pp=25

especially this latest post, which I find very convincing:

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=270017&postcount=801

If you still think Children's Literary (aka, Stylus Literary, ST Literary, Christian Literary, Literary Group, New York Literary, etc) then all I can say is "best of luck and let us know how it turns out."

Gladys Swedak

07-13-2005, 08:49 PM

Peter, I have e-mailed you and have not received a reply. Does this mean you are not who you say you are? If you want to be the positive advertisement for the Children's Literary Agency wouldn't it be advisable to answer questions about them?
Gladys Swedak

I am going to try to post this on the message board. I've never used one, but was emailed the link by the agency. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8286

I'm Pete the www.peeperandfriends.com (http://www.peeperandfriends.com%20/)(the hook) and author of Peeper The Kinkajou, Peeper Goes To Florida, and Boomer To The Rescue. I would first like to say that I am offended by you saying it's a scheme. You need a bit of my background first. I was a Marine Special ops guy who was highly decorated for putting my life on the line to go evacuate innocents out of hostile environments. I came out of the military and became a stock broker. A top producing stock broker. I left that business on top because I wasn't fulfilled with just making money. I wanted a purpose and to help. I guess I was looking for the feeling I had coming through the door with my small team and rescuing people who thought they were to face slaughter. I started a private investigation agency, which I still own www.soginv.com (http://www.soginv.com/). I helped many people there, but still felt a need for more so I wrote and published children's books, which educate children on unique creatures, their ecosystems, and their need for our help. I have had a greater positive impact on more adults, children, and the environment than any of you and all of you together. I say this confidently.

Going back to my issue with the message board. Since I am a private investigator and have learned from many cases that you can't assume anything only investigate fact. It bothers me that you all have these expert opinions based on nothing and they are not even educated( sorry Dr., but the Dr. doesn't always account for common sense).

I am writing this against the wishes of the agency. They said be nice. it's hard to be when offended. Why don't you contact me and let me waste my time proving to you what fact is. One they Children's agency did lie about me making $50,000 last year. I did it in 3 weeks with honorarium and book sales. I asked them why they didn't put the truth about how quickly i did it and they were right in saying that the authors will think it not believable. Now to show you. I am going to be touring 2 weeks from April18-29 in Loudoun county Va and Ocean City MD. come see what I do fist hand and I will show you the numbers. I will make around $40,000 for the 2 weeks. The problem is that unsuccessful authors like to sit around and need to have a purpose by giving expert opinions to new authors. I am way to busy being successful to do this, but some of you need a wake up call. You own failure is your fault and you really aren't helping, only hurting authors when giving them advice on good and bad when you have no idea what you are talking about. My job isn't to waste time complaining or I would then turn into you complainers. I am willing to show you fact. Are you willing to see it? I know several other authors who are happy with The agency.

The agents from the CLA have great business minds. I was the one who suggested they recommend editors because any one can edit grammar and spelling. I have a button on my computer that does it. Knowing how to better communicate to your target market is also important. Most seasoned writer's think they do, but don't. Why do you think such a small percentage of people get published. And beside they may waste money like i did with the first person i had edit. She was an english teacher so the grammar and spelling were perfect. I have personally helped best selling authors who were previously published through big houses finally make money. That's the difference between the new and old era. I was a successful investment banker who understands business. Most book industry people know what they know and aren't great at business.

If you would like to contact me to educate your self more on the real world, call me or email. You can reach me through my website. I feel for all of you experts who have time to play on all the message boards. Turn that negative time and energy around and focus it on positively moving forward in your life and you may become successful also. I don't mean all in money, but to me success means fully being happy with where you are and what you're doing and with all your negativity, you're not there.

If I offended you I'm sorry, but maybe you needed to be offended. I will also entertain any apologies for tieing me into what was called a scheme. This may not be about you I just grabbed all the emails from the board so you could here my side. By the way. I was first printed Jan 05 and within 6 months I accomplished more than most writers do in a lifetime so I believe I speak from authority about business epecially with my background and experiences.

Peter Parente

What they did for me:

sold my publishing company and got me the terms I required.
set up my school appointments based on my school models
told me not to create such a big website, but to keep it simple and not waste my money. I chose to waste my money to do extrs because I wanted to
Got me to an editor who gave me some priceless advice
currectly working on licensing for toys, games, T.V., and Movies. I was in meetings yesterday with investment bankers about the TV show.
Helped some authors I know
They work with they author in the capacity they are looking for. Most authors just want to be published until they are and then are unhappy with the deal. I like being rewarded for my work, you?
That's all for now. I won't be checking back.

victoriastrauss

07-13-2005, 10:16 PM

We are more concerned about the authors that we are currently representing than we are about people who choose to make defamatory statements about us and so I am not prepared to waste time replying to any of these posts which do no more than nit pick.Then why the heck show up here in the first place? Sheesh.

Oh, and by the way, the truth is an absolute defense against accusations of libel.

- Victoria

James D. Macdonald

07-13-2005, 11:32 PM

Before I did I called the author up of the book Peeper and Friends and asked him to be frank with me on the real deal with the agency.

Children's Literary Agency didn't sell Mr. Parente's book: He self-published.

One of the questions that Ms. Orr refused to answer was whether Mr. Parente and his Tree of Life press have some sort of financial arrangement with Children's Literary Agency.

Mr. Fletcher has a history of that sort of thing: At ST/Stylus Literary Agency he has Paul Anderson, another self-published author, his partner. Fletcher encourages authors who question ST's business to call Anderson on the phone.

Roger J Carlson

07-14-2005, 03:41 AM

What they did for me:

sold my publishing company and got me the terms I required.
set up my school appointments based on my school models
told me not to create such a big website, but to keep it simple and not waste my money. I chose to waste my money to do extrs because I wanted to
Got me to an editor who gave me some priceless advice
currectly working on licensing for toys, games, T.V., and Movies. I was in meetings yesterday with investment bankers about the TV show.
Helped some authors I know
They work with they author in the capacity they are looking for. Most authors just want to be published until they are and then are unhappy with the deal. I like being rewarded for my work, you?
That's all for now. I won't be checking back.So OK, here's what they did for him:

They "sold his publishing company". (So he WAS self-published.)
They set up some appointments with schools. (Whoo, that's heavy lifting.)
Told him not to waste money on a nice website. (Probably wanted him to buy one of their own bare-bones websites that cost $129.)
Got him an "editor" that gave him advice. (I've gotten priceless advice from editors too -- in rejections.)
They're "working" on licensing. (Doesn't say they were successful.)
"Helped some authors". (doesn't say how)
(I have no idea what this one means.)
Interesting what he DOESN'T say, isn't it? He doesn't say they sold his book. What is the ONE thing you most of all want a literary agent to do? Right. Sell your book.

AnneMarble

07-14-2005, 04:56 AM

5. They're "working" on licensing. (Doesn't say they were successful.)
Good point. That woman who claimed she'd trademarked the word "muggles" and was suing J. K. Rowling made lots of big claims about licensing. And I've certainly never seen any of her "muggles" stuff. I did see the infamous "Larry Potter" book, but that was remaindered.

7. (I have no idea what this one means.)
"They work with they author in the capacity they are looking for. Most authors just want to be published until they are and then are unhappy with the deal. I like being rewarded for my work, you?"
I'm thinking this one over... Maybe it means that most writers who are caught up in a scam become seriously disillusioned, but some writers (such as those still in the honeymoon phase) think it means that those writers now suddenly don't really want to be published when it really means that they want to be published, not printed. Shades of PA authors in the honeymoon phase telling disillusioned PA writers that they just didn't work hard enough and that they probably didn't want it to begin with.

Or maybe it just means "42." ;)

James D. Macdonald

08-10-2005, 04:18 AM

Other than right here a Absolute Write, this is the only mention on the Google-Indexed Web of our girl Georgina:

http://www.writers.net/agents/40182?PHPSESSID=a6fb41211d2adb3479cb4a33eecd382b

David McAfee

08-10-2005, 05:25 AM

Richard

08-10-2005, 05:27 AM

Yes. Yes she did.

Mac H.

08-10-2005, 08:42 AM

Now....
Robert Fletcher has claimed to be a Chemical Engineer. Where did he earn his degree? What year?Ok, now I'm confused. James D - are you seriously suggesting that somebody who runs a dodgy agency/publisher/editing service would go to the trouble of pretending that they are a fully qualified .. Chemical Engineer? Surely if he was going to make up a qualification, it would be something a little more literary in nature - or perhaps an MBA !?

Am I missing something? Or has suddenly chemical engineering become the latest 'must have' qualification ?

Mac

James D. Macdonald

08-10-2005, 04:01 PM

Boppin' Bobby Fletcher's claims to be a Chemical Engineer were in relation to another one of his businesses. I was just hoping that Georgina could clear up a tiny little mystery about her boss.

After that we'd have to see if that university had any record of a student by that name, and whether he graduated....

jsc

08-12-2005, 10:36 AM

I would hate to fall prey to this sort of practice, altho I usually do pretty good research before I go for anything. But it's so nice to have a resource that we can turn to, to find out the real scoop on this kind of place.

Thanks everyone!
Ginni

MEEEEE TOOOOO! I can't thank all who contributed enough. this was an enlightening experience for a rookie and I think I'll check things out just a little more before I do anything.

JennaGlatzer

01-27-2006, 05:19 AM

I always thought it was strange when Dave K. would tell us that writers would say to him that the latest bad reports were from a year ago, and they would only believe "recent" reports-- as if a company intent on scamming people for years would suddenly have a change of heart and turn legitimate and make great sales-- but lo and behold, I just got a letter quite along those lines. ("All of your posts regarding the Children's Literary Agency are about a year old. Do you have any recent (i.e. within the last 3 months) documenting CONCRETE issues with this company?")

I can't believe I'm even answering this, but look just a few posts up. Roger posted this link. I'll do it again.

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=529

There you go-- the latest talk on Children's Literary Agency is from *today.*

Some days I feel like the I'm the world's most exasperated district attorney, standing in front of a jury saying, "Look, here's the murder weapon. Here's the DNA report that matches. We found the defendant's fingerprints at the scene and the victim's blood all over his clothes," and then a juror says, "Yeah, but show me some evidence!"

:rant:

It isn't my job to force you to avoid scams. I'm here to point 'em out and tell you what to look out for. If you insist on running straight into them anyway, that's your decision.

Gina_Ritter

01-27-2006, 06:14 AM

Oh Jenna... I wish you were only kidding. Could someone be so .... ignorant?

Sadly, I know it's true. :Shrug:

James D. Macdonald

01-27-2006, 07:40 AM

Do you have any recent (i.e. within the last 3 months) documenting CONCRETE issues with this company?

Dear Author: Do you have any recent (i.e. within the last 3 months) information documenting SALES by this company?

cyberwraith

01-28-2006, 07:59 AM

Gosh, thanks everybody! I've just stumbled across this thread and am so impressed with my superheroes Macdonald, Strauss, Jenna and everyone else! Bless you all!

Who are they trying to kid with all that verbage? As anyone who has raised kids knows, the longer the explanation the bigger the lie! http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/eek.gif

And the legal carp (sic) is a nice touch, must say. As former Della Street to a few fine attorneys I roll my eyes and make a note on my legal pad to hold my breath. NOT!

Sheesh!!!

Mr. Magoo

02-07-2006, 08:51 AM

Anyone ever heard of this before? Basic Hotsheet Form (Hotsheet-Client-Template.rtf)

travNastee

02-07-2006, 11:57 AM

Five pages of nothing but bad words and horrible defense from the agency does not equal good. Anytime an agency has that much time to devote to defending itself on a message board...it says not good things. Go back and look at some of the posts Georgina (or Sherry or Isabella or whomever did) and check the tone. Not what I'd like to see from an agent.

Run like the wind.

Oh and Angela (if you ever come back): I think the only "mistake" god made was not giving some people the common sense to listen to others, allowing them to charge forth headlong into a steaming pile that looks like a refreshing pool and dive in and roll around even after they've been told it's nothing more than a big steaming pile.

By the way...you aren't IsabellaBrown are you? (nevermind, your english is too good)

Button

02-13-2006, 04:10 AM

I just wasted a half an hour reading this entire thread. :p Okay, it wasn't a waste. I read it for pure entertainment.

Atleast Georgina has provided some benifit... making me laugh.

Mmm... back to writing... and submitting to real publishers and agents. ;)

jozvin

02-21-2006, 11:13 PM

Roger J Carlson

02-21-2006, 11:55 PM

I fell for it. Only paid $60.00 for a 'professional' critique tho... Makes me wonder, was the critique trash as well? I wonder because the 'critic' praised my work and told me I could make the few needed changes myself... That's probably why the CLA has done nothing with my work...nothing in it for them. What has any one heard regarding WritersLiterary.com
Thanks for being here.
JozvinSorry to hear that. But at $60, it was a pretty cheap lesson. Others have been take for far more.

Why don't you post your work in the Share Your Work board and get a critique there? It's free and often worth far more than you paid :) .

As for WritersLiterary.com, I thought for sure we had a thread in the Bewares and Background Check (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=22) forum, but I can't find one. Why don't you post that question there where more people can see it?

Sage

02-22-2006, 12:16 AM

I believe WritersLiterary.com is associated w/ the [insert word or two] Literary Agency group. In Bewares & Background Check, try Screenplay Literacy Agency or the thread about the tentacles of the Stylus(?) Literacy Agency (or any of the blank-Literacy Agency) threads. I think I recently read about writersliterary.com in one of those threads.

Edited: I figured it out. It was here: http://www.screenwritinglife.com/i-spy-pt-4-of-3-the-saga-comes-to-an-end

That's about the Screenplay Literary Agency, which is connected to Children's Literary Agency. Writersliterary.com is the company they suggested the guy send his sting script to to get edited for a fee. It apparently is formatted very similarly to the Sceenplay Literary Agency's website, & is most likely a co-company.

ann@jacobs.co.za

02-28-2006, 06:00 PM

Emma--this does not sound like a good thing to me. What's all this rhetoric about "creative, compelling and catchy" elements? The third party is the biggest quetion I have. First, it sounds like they want you to pay for editing and secondly, it appears they want you to do some illustrations. If I'm right on both accounts, this is just a scam. Usually, unless you are really well known as you would never submit illustrations with the story manuscript. Publishers place writers and illustrators together not agencies. I would really ask Victoria Strauss about this but it looks like they want to "help" you out of some of your bank account!

EMMA, please let me know what decision you took - I am in the same boat (which is rocking). ann@jacobs.co.za

James D. Macdonald

02-28-2006, 08:32 PM

Writer's Literary is, to the best of my knowledge, owned and operated by Robert Fletcher.

The right hand may not charge fees, but it'll send you to the left hand that does.

The company they'll send you to for illustrations is also owned by Fletcher.

So far, Fletcher has shown zero ability to actually sell a book to a publisher. But he's a champion at draining writers' pockets.

Roger J Carlson

03-03-2006, 07:52 PM

Almost a year ago, a man named Peter Parente posted a defense of Childrens Literary Agency (see it here (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=124981&postcount=12)). Rather belatedly, I posted this response (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=270848&postcount=109). Well, yesterday, I received a rather longish email from Peter complaining of my treatment of him. I'm going to quote it in its entirety and also my response to him.

Note: I have X'd out his phone number because I won't post it on the internet, but I will give it to anyone who PM's me.

Roger,
I don't know you. I'm sure if I read your posts I could get to. I was just
googling myself to see if any reviews popped up. I see you for some reason
feel you want to bring me in to message boards in an accusing way. I would
appreciate some respect. I was a highly decorated Recon Marine responsible
for saving many lives that were under siege. I did evacuate the embassies
in Liberia and the Central African Republic in 96 and provided counter
sniper operations. I have service record books to prove it(from the boards
it seems everyone wants proof). I am giving you this background so you
understand why I may take offense especially after I pride myself on honesty
and hard work. I don't need other people's money or B.S. Ventures, I make
it myself.

I was a successful(opinion based on ranking at firms) stock broker. Then
chose to leave money to start an investigative agency hiring military
operatives. Through that I had chances to serve my country hear after 9/11.
Still operating, not heavily because I am pursuing the TV show hard.
Www.soginv.com (http://www.soginv.com/)

I then decided to write and publish my first book, Peeper The Kinkajou.
It's done alright. I wrote and published 2 more. My publishing company has
now expanded to other titles and services out of demand.
Www.treeoflifepublishing.com (http://www.treeoflifepublishing.com/). Google my books and myself.

I work with many wildlife and environmental organizations out of my love for
nature. I give a lot back.

I am currently working on a Peeper TV show. I type slow so if you want to
talk about the production or have questions pertaining to anything else just
be a man and call. Do go put blind information out on a message board. It
was over a year ago that I left one message and said I wouldn't check back.
Sorry I just did. Give me credit it took a year and came from a Google.
Back to my brief TV explanation. Bottom line is that the creator and
executive producer from the Reading Rainbow, Twila Liggett, is now my
executive producer. She has 26 Emmys, 9 for outstanding children's series.

Back to a comment on the boards. Setting school tours is hard. I schedule
2 a day for weeks at a time and get paid to go as well as sell books through
pre-orders. The reason I mention get paid is because any author can go for
free. It is hard I would be willing to bet you could not organize touring
like that. If you could I will pay your more than you make now(I don't mean
that as an insult, but good schedulers are hard to find).

Let's rewind to what's transpired since last year. I was selling my
publishing co to focus more on being an author. The guys were morons, they
may have been some of the monkeys you guys reference all over the boards.
I pulled out and that is a good thing because we are know rolling into a shell
with a production company forming a multi-media corp. Big financing from
institutional investors and we will be public.

Noone sold my work. I never said they did. I did get good connections out
of the CLA guys. By the way, they just formed in 05 so the probably don't
have many sold manuscripts. They originally approached me. I was
published, but they liked my property and we worked on many ideas.
They do have good business sense. I don't know the guidelines of this
industry so I liked their views from a business perspective. I never told one person who
contacted me as a referral that CLA sold my work. You should see my
responses. I have also steered people away from them. I basically say that
I like their business sense and they are nothing more than mailers to
publishers who wont accept manuscripts with out an agent. I think with my
business background I'm a bit more knowledgeable about business that most
if not all on that string giving advice on success.

Maybe I think all the posts are ridiculous because I hear people whining
about being scammed for $50 dollars. I hired a publicist for $5,000 in
services and $2,000 in expenses. She did her job but I had no return on
equity. Business Lesson learned. I have paid Thousands on advertising with
no ROI. Lesson learned. The point is that the real world and success is
expensive. Being published doesn't make someone successful. Don't get me
wrong, if some one steals $5 from me I'll break their hands. Maybe just one
if I'm in a good mood. Editing is a must. The people don't have to use a
CLA reference. I have seen the email. It states they can provide one if
needed. The reason I asked to see what they send is because I don't think
it's right to strong arm someone to use your people. Providing a reference
is wrong.

I provide services so if there clients or any others want my services I will
provide them those services also. Am I bad also. I provide services in my
business model. Great printing prices if you know anyone who needs them.
This is America. I am currently working with 7 authors. One I stole from
them when she spoke to me as a reference. I didn't steal her, but she was
interested in what I did and wanted to do the same. If you want I will put
you in contact with all my authors I work with.

Every day I deal with incompetent businesses. I usually can't get timely
responses out of people. Cla always responds immediately and that means
something in my book. I also ask people who contact me about them to notify
me if something seems fishy. They do have satisfied customers I have had
had a few ask what I thought of a situation that came up and I suggested
they leave.

I also see references to others. Dorothy Walker, Ann Doro, D A johnstone
are the same person. A lovely 81 year old woman(sharp as a tack) who I
introduced to the because she has acted as a freelance agent and sold
several works incluing her own. Dorothy is her real name. Ann is her
children's pen name(Charlie the Lost Dog a best seller through scholastic,
Twin Pickle a Bill Martin book through Henry Holt, and The Missing Canary
through me). D A Johnsone wrote Trio and she got rooked by Publish America
with that one. She sold the works as a registered agent Barbara Ann Blythe.
Dorothy came to me to publish because before only the publishers made money.

She is no longer with CLA because the message boards scared her yet she was
receiving an income to do what she did. Sell books as an agent. There was
the case of a real agent scared away. An 81 year old woman was valued for
her expertise and was able to make some money. No she is nervous and
doesn't need the head aches of the message boards in her 80s. She still
heads local writers groups(for free).

I covered much of this privately with Victoria Strauss and I asked why she
only posted my first email which blasted everyone and not the others that
answered all the questions and she said it wasn't her job. That showed me
that there was some manipulating of information and for some reason there is
a buddy list on a mission to go after this agency and everyone mentioned
around them.

I guess one a year I can afford to take time to take the stand and plead my
case. I don't know why I'm on trial, but I guess that's life. If this
makes it to a message board you can order autographed copies of my books at
www.peeperandfriendfs.com (http://www.peeperandfriendfs.com/).

Contact me any time. Please call this typing thing is tough. (XXX)XXX-
XXXX. Have any of you message board buddies call that want to know things.
I suggested that a year ago, but none called.

I saw some people complained that I never got back to the as a reference so
I must not be real to kiss my ***. I live down by Key West and have had 2
nightmare hurricane seasons. I own 4 houses on the water and still am
repairing. The last one end of October put our houses under a 5 foot surge
and I had my baby born in the hospital that was falling apart during
Katrina. My job isn't to refer people to the CLA. I don't mind helping
people, but I'm also extremely busy. If new authors need advice don't
hesitate to contact me, but be understanding.

(don't know which salutaion to end with),

Peter Parente
Please contact me directly and not through the message boards because it may
be another year until I look. By the way, have people every day contacting
me because they loved my original post.

My response:

Dear Mr. Parente,

I'm sorry if my post on Absolute Write Water Cooler was disrespectful. But frankly, neither I nor anyone on the board is interested in 1) your service record, 2) your success as a stock broker, 3) your self-published books, 4) your environmentalism, or 5) your school tour guide experience. None of these qualify you to defend a literary scam like Childrens Literary Agency (CLA).

The reason I was dismissive of the things you listed that CLA did for you is because none of those are things a literary agent does for his clients. A LITERARY AGENT SELLS BOOKS TO PUBLISHERS. Period. Anything else is outside the purview of their profession.

The single defense possible of Robert Fletcher of the Children's Literary Agency, New York Literary, Christian Literary Agency, Poets Literary Agency, The Screenplay Agency, Stylus Literary Agency, and The Writers Literary & Publishing Services Company is that they have sold your book to a real publisher. That was the one thing you DID NOT claim. In fact, in your letter to me, you say they did not sell it. All the other things they did for you are superfluous.

For a while, Fletcher or one of his cronies (Georgina Orr, Sherry Fine, Robert West, etc) would come to AW and defend themselves. They always got their heads handed to them on a platter. More recently, they've taken to asking real people to post on the boards to defend them. (And before you say they never asked you, you already admitted they did in your first post.) None of these defenders have claimed that any of Fletcher's tentacles has sold a book for them.

So that's the reason AW board members ganged up on you. You are defending a known scam. Frankly, sir, if you're going to get in bed with a pimp, you'd better be prepared to be called a whore.

If you're really interested in the truth, follow these links and read all of the posts. Yes, you'll see a lot of anger from many of the same people as on the CLA thread, but you'll also hear stories of how actual living writers were taken by these people. If you are the honorable man you claim to be, I don't see how you can continue to defend them.

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8312
http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8286
http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13514
http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=929
http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=529
http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13517
http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19104
http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20359

Regards,
--Roger J. Carlson

LloydBrown

03-03-2006, 09:11 PM

Maybe I think all the posts are ridiculous because I hear people whining about being scammed for $50 dollars. I hired a publicist for $5,000 in
services and $2,000 in expenses. She did her job but I had no return on
equity.

There's a difference between paying somebody to do something that they have no intention of doing and paying somebody to do something that doesn't work out the way you plan. One is fraud. The other could be attributed to anything from incompetence to circumstance.

Oh, and you get a return on an investment. You can't get a return on equity. That's a nonsensical statement. It looks like an attempt to impress people with your "business-sounding" vocabulary. It might have worked if it wasn't gibberish.

I provide services so if there clients or any others want my services I will provide them those services also. Am I bad also.

You are absolutely not qualified in any way to offer editing services. If you ask people to pay you for that skill, then, yes, you are a scam artist.

She [Dorothy Walker] is no longer with CLA because the message boards scared her yet she was receiving an income to do what she did. Sell books as an agent. Really? What books did she sell? To what publishers? I'll be green American dollars that no agent at Children's Literary Agency, including Dorothy, has ever sold any work to a legitimate, royalty-paying, agent-requiring publisher.

James D. Macdonald

03-07-2006, 06:21 AM

What a remarkably irrelevant series of statements from Mr. Peter Parente!

Let's cut through the jibber-jabber to the actual meat (thin as it is) in that astounding letter.

Noone sold my work.

Very good. Is there any work that Robert Fletcher or anyone in any of his agencies has sold?

By the way, they just formed in 05 so the probably don't
have many sold manuscripts.

They started using that name in '05. The ST Literary Agency (and Sydra Techniques before it) has been around for years. The CLA (and other parts of The Literary Agency Group) have been claiming "sales" that date well before '05. Either they're new, or they aren't. Even new agencies should have sales in their first year.

You say they probably haven't sold "many" books. Have they sold any?

I don't know the guidelines of this industry ...
With all due respect, that's obvious.

...they are nothing more than mailers to publishers who wont accept manuscripts with out an agent.
That is not what an agent does, nor why Joe Average Writer wants or needs an agent.

She is no longer with CLA because the message boards scared her yet she was receiving an income to do what she did. Sell books as an agent.

Could you name the books (if any) that she sold for CLA?

If new authors need advice don't hesitate to contact me, but be understanding.
With all due respect, that would be a very bad idea for any new author. You don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Please consider that the reason Victoria didn't post your subsequent letters may have been that they were as embarrassing (for you) as this one that Roger did post.

CaoPaux

03-14-2006, 12:40 AM

FYI: This agency has been named one of Writer Beware's 20 Worst Agents/Agencies (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=525972#post525972).

rdfamily

03-14-2006, 04:42 PM

Roger J Carlson

03-14-2006, 07:34 PM

Just out of curiosity, what would a real acceptance letter look like? I haven't submitted anything, so have no experience, but would like to have an idea as to what to trust. What should I look for to know it's legitimate? (besides researching who I'm submitting to)Jim, Jenna, Victoria, or anyone else who has been accepted for representation:

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't most acceptances for either representation or for book publication done via a personal phone call? I don't have personal experience with this, but the closest I've come to an acceptance for publication of my book was a call from the publisher telling me why she was rejecting it and suggesting changes. I assume the acceptance will come in this form as well. (I understand that publication in a magazine will differ.)

Seems to me, one of the hallmarks of these scams is they all have a "new model" for their business where they do everything by email with no personal contact with your "agent".

James D. Macdonald

03-14-2006, 07:38 PM

A real acceptance letter? From an agency?

It'll most likely talk in some detail about your book. Other than that, could be anything.

And Roger's quite right. As far back as 1987 we learned about our first sale via a phone call.

victoriastrauss

03-16-2006, 08:22 PM

onmyway

03-23-2006, 04:10 AM

Hello to everyone who has been discussing the Children's Literary Agency. I just discovered this website today and after reading all the postings feel like such a loser.

I guess there is a first time for everything. In my case, a victim of the above company. They had no problem "taking" my money for editing purposes. I quote taking because I paid "another" company that critiqued my work. (you all know how this works, but I thought I would put my two cents in).

So, I tried contacting one of the gals at the company and did not get a response which lead me to start investigating this company. After reading all the negative comments, I decided to send a fax to notify them that I no longer want or need their service. I am within the 90 days that they give you to pull out from the contract.

So now I'm just angry, angry. I think I'm more angry because I used to make fun of people who get scammed, and now I am one of those people. About the money that I "lost", well, I'll chalk it up to experience.

Thank you again to all that have put so much research into this.

underthecity

03-23-2006, 04:34 AM

Onmyway,

Welcome to AW.

You learned a valuable lesson, now take a deep breath and submit your work to a real agent.

I suggest you check out agentquery (http://www.agentquery.com/) and read up on agents and submissions, and start checking out the agents that accept children's literature. Cross reference everything, and I do mean everything, with Preditors and Editors (http://www.anotherealm.com/prededitors/pubagent.htm).

If you need help with your query letter, visit the Query Letter Critique (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=84) forum in the Share Your Work forum on this website.

It's what I did.

Good luck!

allen

majiklmoon

03-23-2006, 05:16 AM

Hi Onmyway,

sorry this happened to you. I was so close to being taken by them as well. It's so exciting when you think a 'professional' is interested in something you've written. Please don't let this sour you.

Good luck!

onmyway

03-23-2006, 06:30 AM

Thank you so much for your kind words and advice. I'll keep plugging away!

stormie

03-23-2006, 06:39 PM

Allen gave good advice. I like agent query too, and I cross-reference every agent. Most have web sites. You can also go to www.aar-online.org (http://www.aar-online.org) for reputable agents, but not all good agents belong to aar. And, as Allen said, go to Preditors and Editors. It's great you found out before it's too late.

I'm being redundant. Sorry. Not enough coffee yet!

stiernan

03-28-2006, 12:33 AM

CaoPaux

03-28-2006, 01:33 AM

Alas, there's no "seems like" about it. CLA is a scam. Run away.

nevada

03-28-2006, 03:22 AM

Mr Parente himself is a fraud. If you check his website, there is no such thing as Marine Special Forces. THe Marines have always maintained that their soldiers are so highly trained that they dont need to form a special forces unit. It is only in the last few months that they have agreed to joint training with other branches to form elite joint special forces units that encompass all branches.

I actually registered because this thread made me mad. :rant: Scam artists should be shot. Or better, should be scammed themselves. Let them know how it feels.

onmyway

03-30-2006, 03:14 AM

Emma,

My wife and I got the same type of form letter response from CLA....supposedly written by Sherry Fine, VP of aquisitions?

Unfortunately, the whole things seems like a scam. No address, no phone number, asking for money?

Scott
Hi Scott,

Yup, Sherry Fine is right. That's exactly who sent me the form letter. I've run away............

majiklmoon

03-30-2006, 05:27 AM

Emma,

My wife and I got the same type of form letter response from CLA....supposedly written by Sherry Fine, VP of aquisitions?

Unfortunately, the whole things seems like a scam. No address, no phone number, asking for money?

Scott

run fast, run far...it's a scam of epic proportions

Melisande

04-20-2006, 12:39 AM

I wrote to Peter Parente about CLA, expressing my doubts. This is his reply to me. It didn't make me any wiser.

"I prefer not to comment on them. If I say anything good then the chatroom warriors try to turn me into the bad guy. I am already on the predators and editors list(which only means something in their world) because those morons have a problem with CLA, yet all my authors praise what I do. An agent should only make money when they make you money. If you think you need referrals to certain services then do, if not don’t. I’m sorry but the headaches of that soap opera have me walking away and focusing on my work.

Thanks,

Pete
“Opportunities come from knocking on doors until they open!”"

LloydBrown

04-20-2006, 12:44 AM

I wrote to Peter Parente about CLA, expressing my doubts. This is his reply to me. It didn't make me any wiser. He does use a large number of words to say nothing.

radnanna

04-28-2006, 08:27 AM

Got stung (not a big amount, but it still smarts!) by another literary agency that was actively pursuing manuscripts whose name later surfaced on a reliable board such as this one as being nothing more than a scam, so I'm a bit wary this time around. I'm only inquiring about Children's Literary Agency though, as I haven't read any negative comments about them so far. Has anyone out there heard of them? worked with them? Would appreciate any feedbacks. Thanks muchly!

Don't I feel mad and stupid. Thank God and a friend who is already a published business writer, I had not sent CLA any money, only a manuscript. My friend told me to ask the agency a few questions. No response after 3 tries to get one. Thankfully I have proof that I wrote the story, but how do I know they won't try to sell it to a publisher under someone else's name? My question is what can we do about these scoundrels? There must be some way to find them and have them arrested for fraud.
I'm also thankful I found this web site and you guys! radnanna

James D. Macdonald

04-28-2006, 02:14 PM

how do I know they won't try to sell it to a publisher under someone else's name?

That would require that they actually sell something. Not going to happen.

My question is what can we do about these scoundrels? There must be some way to find them and have them arrested for fraud.

Write to your state's attorney general, the New York attorney general, and the Florida attorney general, telling them about your experiences. Just the "Dragnet" facts, no emotion, no speculation. Consider writing to the editor of your local newspaper, too.

James D. Macdonald

05-03-2006, 06:24 PM

Robert Fletcher, using his "Sherryfine" account, and signing his post "RKForever," made a major spamming run on Absolute Write today. Somehow he missed this thread.

Unfortunately for Robert, it was a "defense" of his business that he'd already posted, and that had already been refuted line-by-line.

See it for yourself here:

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19104&page=1&pp=25

No sane person would consider submitting material to an agency like that.

majiklmoon

05-03-2006, 07:16 PM

No sane person would consider submitting material to an agency like that.

Hey! just remember there are plenty of sane people who made the mistake of submitting there, but found this site because of that. See, this is me, trying to put a positive spin on my major mistake of 2006 lol

ajrmom

05-08-2006, 09:23 PM

I am a repeat offender of almost allowing myself to be scammed - first with ST, now with CLA. I have some terrific email dialog saved from my going back and forth with ST - if anyone wants to see it, let me know.

At least this time, I didn't get as far into the process, and I checked in here, before submitting my manuscript - maybe I'm finally learning my lesson.

Here is their latest rendition of their form letter. I love the part where they discuss their location -- after reading this thread, it really made me giggle.

I could've spent all day picking the typos apart, but I thought I'd much rather see what you all come up with first.

Thanks so much,

Jami

"Thank you for your query to the Children's Literary Agency. Based on your
query form information we would like to see more.

1) Would you please send us an electronic copy
of your work for further evaluation?

Please email your manuscript to
manuscript@childrensliteraryagency.com (manuscript@childrensliteraryagency.com) .

2) Would you please answer these 2 questions
in the body of the SAME email? (Just copy and paste
the questions).

A. How long have you been writing, and
what are your goals as a writer?

B. Do you consider your writing 'ready-to-go',
or do you think it needs some polishing.

You may send either 3-5 chapters or the entire manuscript, whichever you are more comfortable sending. Your manuscript is completely safe within our company. We take care to properly manage all access and if we don't end up working together, we delete all files.

Please DO NOT include any questions with your manuscript submission. If you have a question, please send it to question@childrensliteraryagency.com (question@childrensliteraryagency.com) where the proper people may address your question. Most of the questions you may have are answered on the website and at the bottom of this email.
Please see the FAQs below.

Our preference for receiving your manuscript is via email.
============================================
If the file size is greater than 5 megabytes you can mail it to us on CD,
but please only send it once, either by email or snail mail (we prefer
email). Our mailing address is: The Children's Literary Agency, 275
Madison Ave., 4th Floor, New York, New York 10016. If you decide to mail your manuscript please be sure to INCLUDE your email address (very clearly) so we may reply and process your manuscript. Mailed manuscripts may take up to 30 days to reply/process. Emailed manuscripts are processed much more quickly. (If your filesize is over 5 megs we also just recently found a free service that will move large files. Take a look at www.yousendit.com (http://www.yousendit.com). We've used it successfully in the past. Just use my email address as the "send to" address.)

We believe we are very different than other agencies.
================================================== ========
We believe that we are unique in that we are willing to develop an author and their talent. We like the metaphor of a "business incubator" as a description of how we will take time to bring an author's work to the proper quality level, even if it takes months to do so. We take pride in the fact that we answer every email personally within 2-3 days. Please, watch your spam filters!

Our job is to find a buyer for you, period. You may understand how a
Literary Agency works, but many authors don't. As your Literary Agent, our mission is to assist you in finding a publisher and to coach you along the way in various options available to you. We don't edit, we don't
illustrate, our mission is to sell for you.

As for compensation, get paid on success only, meaning we only get paid if you get paid. Typically we will receive 10% of what you receive. We do not charge fees, so our compensation is based on success only. Along the way, we may suggest that you continuously improve the quality of your work and or how it is presented. Once your work is deemed 'presentable', then we'll start shopping it to publishers. We never promise a sale, but we can tell you that we have a model that works.

We look forward to receiving your materials.

Best regards,
Sherry Fine - V.P. Acquisitions

p.s. You might as well get used to these long emails. Part of our filtering process is to see if you actually read them <grin>. Why the long emails? I spend my time doing two basic tasks, 1) managing submissions and evaluations, and 2) answering questions. If I can answer your question BEFORE you ask it, then the entire process will proceed much more efficiently. As a corollary to that, if you want long-winded, personalized emails where we dicuss politics, the weather, and how your day went, you will probably not enjoy our process. If you are as busy as we are, and you pride yourself on operating efficiently (it is a business after all), then you will enjoy how efficiently we focus on the point, and that is, whether we can work together based on your writing and attitude.

PLEASE UNDERSTAND THAT YOU WILL HAVE A MUCH MORE PERSONALIZED INTERACTION WITH OUR AGENTS IF YOU PASS THE EVALUATION PROCESS. This is the biggest complaint that we get and I wish I could spend oodles of time with each of you. I just can't. Sometimes it's like drinking from a firehose over here. (And I always hate it when I really like someone and my team disagrees).
So, please rest assured that there will be plenty of personal interaction
with your agent but not with me.

Typical Frequently Asked Questions
=============================
Q) Do you return manuscripts?
A) Sorry for the inconvenience however, WE DO NOT RETURN MANUSCRIPTS or MATERIALS due to the volume of submissions we receive. Please do not send us anything that you can't replace easily.

Q) Would you prefer me to email or mail my manuscript?
A) WE MUCH PREFER EMAILED MANUSCRIPTS.

Q) How should I attach my manuscript?
A) PLEASE DO NOT PASTE YOUR MANUSCRIPT INTO THE BODY OF THE EMAIL. Please send it to us as an attachment, otherwise it hangs up the mail system. If you can't create an attachment, please get a friend to help you do so. I think we have every software program known to man (except Mac). However everything works easier if you have a .pdf, .rtf, or .doc filetype. We also support Word Perfect and MS Works.

Q) Is my manuscript safe with you?
A) Your materials are safe within our company. If you are uncomfortable sending your entire manuscript, please only send 3-5 chapters. If we do not end up working together we will destroy and delete any copies of your work that we have. Furthermore the idea of people stealing someone's work is a bit of 'urban legend'. It really doesn't happen.

Q) How long does this review take?
A) About 7-10 days. We're faster than most other agencies.

Q) Why is there no phone number? I want to talk to someone...
A) Quite frankly, we are deluged with submissions. It is our policy to
provide a contact number later in the process, assuming we would like to proceed with you. If you would like to talk with someone for the
reassurance of hearing a voice, just email me and I'll connect you to the proper party.

Q) Where are you located?
A) In today's connected world, our physical location is meaningless. We maintain executive suites on Madison Aveneue in New York, NY where we receive mail and meet with buyers. Other than that, we travel extensively and we have the good fortune to live in Florida, North Carolina, and California depending on the time of year. Sometimes we think that we live
in airports.

Q) Why aren't you in the Yellow Pages? I can't find you listed anywhere?
A) We use toll free phone numbers and cell phones. Those simply aren't in any phone directories.Yellow Pages are 'old technology', and they cost money. The Internet is a much better forrm of advertising. We haven't been in Yellow pages for 10 years. Buyers certainly don't go to the Yellow Pages to find authors <grin>, just nervous authors go there.

Q) Are you a member of AAR, BBB, Alphabet Soup...?
A) We have chosen to belong to industry associations where the buyers are, such as the Publishers Marketing Association (PMA) through our parent company, The Literary Agency Group. We spend our money going to the big book tradeshows in the US, England, and Germany. BBB, AAR, and other organizations of that type mainly exist for nervous writers, and frankly, we have too many applicants already, so we choose not to spend time and money on those organizations. I hope that helps you understand why we belong to associations that help us sell your work, not organizations that help us recruit more writers. We prefer that you judge us on the professionalism of our communications and not whether we belong to an organization. In other words, we ask that you judge us based on our interactions together, and that you can make up your own mind based on our professionalism and courtesy not
whether we belong to some organization.

Q) Tell me more about your company.
A) We are bigger than a small agency and smaller than a large agency. We just sold our 3rd and 4th book deals and we are confident of more success later this year. We market to the larger and medium sized publishers and producers. (fyi: most agencies only have 1 or 2 deals every couple of years, if that.). We've been around the block enough to have people that love us, and people that hate us. We will never ask you for money, so that's one way to judge for yourself. Our commitment to you is that we believe that we should get paid only if we sell your work. Your commitment to us is that you will do what it takes to make sure your manuscript is the best it can be and that it meets or exceeds industry quality standards.

Q) You're not a vanity publisher or a self-publisher are you?
A) No we're NOT A VANITY OR SELF-publisher in any way, shape or form. We DO NOT sell to vanity or self-publishers. Our mission is to sell your work to TRADITIONAL publishers who will pay you (and us). And, that's how we get paid. If we sell your work to a publisher, then and only then do we get paid (usually 10% which is the industry standard for Literary Agencies).

Q) What are you looking for during your evaluation?
A) We mainly look for COMMERCIAL VIABILITY in the work coupled with good solid writing skills. "Is it something that will sell?" is of paramount
importance to us. (We ARE NOT scrutinizing every word, spelling, and grammar usage. There's plenty of time later for that.) We believe that great writers are made, not born at least 99% of the time. But if a work doesn't have commercial potential, then we want to let you know as quickly as possible. Being willing to grow talent, we believe in the old adage, "luck is when opportunity meets preparation and hard work".

Q) How can you evaluate work so quickly?
A) Our mission in the Acquisitions Department is clear. We answer 3
questions:

1. Will the subject matter sell? Is it commercially viable?
2. Is the writing good enough, or would it be good enough
with some degree of assistance?
3. Did you as the evaluator like the work and would you
believe in it if you were selling it?

If we get the "3 yes" designation then you pass. The next item we look for in our filtering process is your willingness to listen or whether you are a prima donna who wants it 'their way'. We will very quickly wash out a great writer with a bad attitude. Life's too short for drama and overly demanding writers.

Q) What if you find errors or problems with my manuscript? Should I spend time revising now, or later?
A) We receive very few 'ready-to-go' manuscripts. We believe we are unique in that we are willing to work with our authors along the way. Most manuscripts that we receive need some level of polishing before we can submit them to buyers. Some need very little polishing. Some need a lot. Over the years, we've learned that it is worth our time and effort to do what it takes to develop new talent. We've learned that incubating new talent makes good business sense.

Q) My manuscript isn't finished....
A) As long as there is enough finished to determine your skills as a writer we are willing to look at your work. As mentioned previously, we take a long term view and we are willing to develop talent.

Q) Who are some of the authors you represent? Why aren't they on your website?
A) Every time we've placed the names of our writers, our agents, or our
sales on the website, they are deluged with very wierd emails from some very wierd people, so we just don't post them anymore. We'd rather lose a new author applicant, than an existing client or buyer.

We are proud to represent a very diverse group of authors. Our roster of authors includes authors with the following occupations:

* Doctors
* Lawyers
* Entrepreneurs
* Journalists
* Professors and teachers from universities, high-schools, and elementary schools
* Coaches
* Accountants and bankers
* Advertising Executives
* Stay at home moms... students, etc.

Here are just a few bios:

1. The author was born in Baltimore, Maryland and is a Professor at a major university. She is an author and editor of 16 books and 12 proceedings and monographs. She has written 50 chapters and 100 papers, and given more than 150 presentations nationwide. She has graduate degrees in Music, Science, and Education. She and her husband are now living in the British Virgin Islands, where her time is spent sailing and writing. She has published scientific articles and written more than a hundred concert reviews as a freelance music critic.

2. The author is a Fellow of the Royal Colleges of Physicians of Edinburgh, and of Canada, and a Member of the American Societies of Hematology, Clinical Oncology, Blood and Marrow Transplantation and the International Society for Cellular Therapy. For the year 2004-5 he was a scientific advisor to the Cancer Vaccine Consortium. He was a past recipient of the Elmore Research Scholarship of the University of Cambridge.

3. The author has also won numerous awards honoring him as one of the top sportscasters in the country. He has been richly honored as a professional speaker as well, thrilling audiences with his career highlights and inspiring messages. He has a rich history of being on the air in radio and TV for a quarter of a century, working in major markets such as Los Angeles, Chicago, London, Cincinnati and now Dallas. Before settling in Dallas, he lived in London doing on-air work for both the BBC and ESPN.

4. This author started singing professionally with the singing group The
Montells in her early teens. They later signed with Golden Crest Records & then went to Atlantic Recording Studio were they recorded, Under The Broad Walk with The Drifters & Gee Baby. In 1997 she was elected into The International Poetry Hall Of Fame with her Award winning Poem. She appeared at The Crossroads Theater in 1998.

5. The author is a retired veterinarian living in Bethlehem, South Africa.
He was in rural private practice in various towns before settling down in
Bethlehem where he practiced for 35 years. For ten years or more he had a monthly column in Veterinary News. He also was the script-writer for the SuperSport TV series The ABC of Golf.

We DO NOT give out names or contact information except to qualified buyers. (If you'll think about it, if you were one of our authors, you'd feel the same way. There are a lot of wierdos on the Internet. Sometimes we think that there is a higher incidence of psychosis among writers than any other occupation.)

Q) Is this an automated email? Is there a real person out there?
A) Yes, and yes, and yes... We personally review each query form that we receive for sentence structure, basic spelling and grammar, and whether the story idea/synopsis sounds interesting. This tells us which manuscripts we would like to receive. Then, yes, we do use a form to provide these FAQs. Can you imagine typing this time and time again? We pride ourselves on using technology to be as efficient as possible. This allows us to work with authors from anywhere in the world. By automating certain elements of our communications we can spend more thoughtful time on your questions that are specific to you and
your situation.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you again for your time in reading to the end of this email. I hope
that you have a better feeling for our company and our acquisitions process.

I look forward to receiving your materials. And please pardon one more
request.

IF YOU EMAIL YOUR MATERIALS TO US WE WILL ALWAYS NOTIFY YOU WITHIN 2-3 DAYS OF RECEIPT. Please refrain from asking "did you get it?" for at least 3 business days. If you haven't been notified of receipt within 3 days, then by all means resend it (don't ask, just resend it to the email address above. If it won't go through, just 'reply' to this email and attach your manuscript.)

IF YOU SNAIL MAIL (POST) YOUR MATERIALS TO US, PLEASE ALLOW UP TO 2 WEEKS FOR NOTIFICATION OF RECEIPT. Why? It has to be forwarded to a special evaluator that handles 'paper'. And remember, we cannot return materials, so no need for a SASE. If you mail us anything, please be sure it has your email on it.

Whew! Thanks again and we look forward to hearing from you and looking at your work.

Best regards,
Sherry Fine - VP of Acquisitions
We Grow Talent"

DaveKuzminski

05-09-2006, 06:21 AM

Hmmm, if I remember correctly, Gee Baby is a song. Baby Gee is an artist. Seems like they can't get their biographical data correct, either.

James D. Macdonald

05-09-2006, 05:44 PM

The International Poetry Hall Of Fame

Isn't that Poetry.com/The International Library of Poetry?

Well-known scam.

James D. Macdonald

05-09-2006, 05:57 PM

Hmmm, if I remember correctly, Gee Baby is a song. Baby Gee is an artist. Seems like they can't get their biographical data correct, either.

The song is probably "Gee Baby, What About You" which was covered by The Montells (the Long Island girl-band from the early sixties, not to be confused with the better known The Montells, an all-male band).

The Drifters recorded "Under the Boardwalk" (not "Broad Walk") in 1964, but no female vocalists are credited. It's possible that this person sang backup.

The paragraph is clumsily written. I think the LAG folks were trying to say:

"They signed with Golden Crest Records and recorded "Gee Baby" and "Under The Boardwalk" at Atlantic Recording Studio."

(Please note also that LAG meant "where" not "were" in ...Atlantic Recording Studio were they recorded....)

LAKOTA

05-09-2006, 08:08 PM

Sherry says "There are a lot of weirdos on the internet these days." "Our writers are deluged with very weird E-mails from some very weird people."

I don't know maybe it's just me but it sounds as though Sherry is giving us her (or his) Bio.

majiklmoon

05-10-2006, 10:30 PM

Emmanuelle

05-20-2006, 05:24 AM

Hello everyone
I am glad you brought the subject
for I got emails from this company who "accepted" to represent me
but two thinks shocked me
the first paragraph I thought was insulting any snippiness she has the right to fire a person on the spot ! what kind of relationship is this ?
Does it mean that if you disagree they just dump you ? and
second you have to pay 70 to 90 dollars to get a critique from them. They shouldn't be any more fees they say but who knows right ? I never heard of such practices.
I do feel there is something fishy
It's a blessing to see some other people that can relate
thanks to all
E

We like to work with pleasant people in a professional manner.
----------------------------------------------------------------- ----------
-

We are absolutely committed to a professional relationship and professional
communications; as you may have noticed, we have included that as one of our
top four signature items. We sincerely ask that you take the same
professional attitude in our communications as well. If we make a mistake,
or if you don't like the way we do things, you DO NOT have permission to
flame me or anyone in the company. People describe me as 'laid back - with
attitude'. Any snippiness on your part and I have the full support of my
management to fire you on the spot, and I will, and it's irrevocable. I'm
sorry for the hard line, but we've been around the block enough to try and
get rid of the bad apples as early in the process as we can. We very much
look forward to a great relationship, over the long term. Thank you for
understanding; we hope you feel the same way. Life's just too short for mean
people or drama.[This sounds rather adolescent. I'd cut that last line]

B) At some time and some place, we have to trust each other. We believe that
this is where it has to start. Your risk is $70-$90. Our risk is that our
internal cost of our time with you at our hourly rate is easily greater than
that amount. (And you never pay us for that time, we don't charge any fees
as we've mentioned earlier). So, we'll spend the time to work with you if
you'll do your part to make sure your work is the best it can be. Unless the
critique points out the need for substantial rework, there shouldn't be any
more fees. That's why we require an independent 3rd party for the critique.
This protects YOU from an unscrupulous agent, and it protects US from
egocentric writers.

James D. Macdonald

05-20-2006, 06:56 AM

Has the fun gone out of doing a line-by-line on Bobby Fletcher's drivel? It has not!

We like to work with pleasant people in a professional manner.
----------------------------------------------------------------- ----------
-

So do we all.

We are absolutely committed to a professional relationship and professional
communications; as you may have noticed, we have included that as one of our
top four signature items.

And no time like the present to start, eh?

We sincerely ask that you take the same
professional attitude in our communications as well.

As in "Don't laugh out loud at our ridiculous assertions"? Or "Don't ask us what we've sold"?

If we make a mistake,
or if you don't like the way we do things, you DO NOT have permission to
flame me or anyone in the company.

I don't recall asking your permission, Bobby. Incidentally -- who's in the company besides you and your pseudonyms?

People describe me as 'laid back - with
attitude'.

Actually, people describe you as an "ex-con" and a "scammer."

Any snippiness on your part and I have the full support of my
management to fire you on the spot,

"Snippiness" meaning asking "what have you sold, ever, to anyone?" Note: Agents cannot fire writers. Writers do not work for agents -- it's the other way around. Writers can -- and do -- fire agents.

This does illuminate what Bobby meant when he said, way back when:

"The negative comments on the web are from 1) people we didn't accept, 2) people we fired, 3) people that don't understand the real ins and outs of running a Literary Agency that will even work with brand new, unpublished authors."
At the time I thought that "people we fired" meant agents who had worked in his agency who he had let go. Now I see he meant "authors who asked questions." I hadn't even considered "people we fired" might mean "authors we'd formerly represented" because -- that's turning the world on its head.

and I will, and it's irrevocable.

For which you should thank your lucky stars. (Actually, if you want them to take you on again, just resubmit the same material from a different email address. They don't read what you submit; you'll get a brand-new acceptance.)

I'm
sorry for the hard line, but we've been around the block enough to try and
get rid of the bad apples as early in the process as we can.

"Bad apples" being those writers who expect agents who act like agents, who know what agents do, who have the slightest modicum of savvy.

We very much
look forward to a great relationship, over the long term.

As long as your checkbook holds out.

Thank you for
understanding;

Bobby, you're slipping! The line is "seeking to understand," isn't it?

we hope you feel the same way.

Oh, I do. I do.

Life's just too short for mean
people or drama.

It's also too short to waste time on seeing whether a leopard has changed his spots.

B) At some time and some place, we have to trust each other.

And if that line doesn't convince you you're in a bunco game, nothing will.

We believe that
this is where it has to start.

They don't have time to waste on people who aren't going to pay ... and pay.

Your risk is $70-$90.

Not risk: Payment. Loss.

Our risk is that our
internal cost of our time with you at our hourly rate is easily greater than
that amount.

It costs that much to have an autoresponder send a form letter?

Incidentally, agents don't get paid by the hour. They don't have an "hourly rate."

(And you never pay us for that time, we don't charge any fees
as we've mentioned earlier).

No one, ever, anywhere, pays an agent for his or her time. Agents get a percentage of the sale, and they make exactly the same on a deal that they make in five minutes as they do on a deal that takes them five months. (And Bobby doesn't charge any fees -- he just sends you over to another company that's just him with a different email address that does charge fees.)

So, we'll spend the time to work with you if
you'll do your part to make sure your work is the best it can be.

I already did, Chuckles, before I sent it out.

Unless the
critique points out the need for substantial rework, there shouldn't be any
more fees.

But the critique will point out the need for substantial rework, and there will be more fees. Payable to another company ... that just happens to be Fletcher at a different email address.

That's why we require an independent 3rd party for the critique.

From an independent company that we happen to own. Notice that no legitimate agency requires this.

This protects YOU from an unscrupulous agent, and it protects US from
egocentric writers.

This is total nonsense. Think about it. How can paying money to someone protect anyone from an unscrupulous agent? And how can your paying money protect an agent from an egocentric writer? And why would an agent be interested in being protected from writers at all?

There are too many things wrong with that sentence for me to parse them all. It's twisted in a Bizarro World way.

See also: The Literary Agency Group Tentacles (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26990) thread.

By the way, Bobby, what have you sold? Ever? To anyone?

delbois

05-22-2006, 04:30 PM

A short note simply to thank all those who have posted warnings about CLA. I was invited to submit my manuscript for "polishing". That seemed unusual to me so I began the due diligence I should have made in the first place and found this site. Needless to say I declined any further contact with them. What puzzles me, though, is why, with all the information now available, other sites still allow them to advertise! I spent my business life in the advertising business and at the first sniff of anything untoward the relevant copy committe would block any ads from a company with so much comment against them. Have thing changed that much?

James D. Macdonald

05-22-2006, 06:52 PM

Many of those ads are provided by Google -- the site doesn't pick them, they're automatically generated from keywords. The ads may change from moment to moment. The site owner doesn't explicitly choose them.

Many site owners are unaware that ads from certain URLs can be blocked. I would recommend writing to site owners when you see ads from any of The Literary Agency Group's spawn to inform them that they're providing advertising to a scammer and that that scammer can be blocked from their site.

(I'm convinced that one of the reasons Fletcher created all the different sub-agencies of his original Sydra Techniques is to have more presence in Google Ads.)

Individuals can report ads to Google here: http://www.google.com/contact/rate_advertiser.html

delbois

05-23-2006, 12:40 PM

Yes, well in that case someone should tell Google the facts of life! They shouldn't be exempt from properly controlling their ads.

DaveKuzminski

05-23-2006, 11:33 PM

The question then becomes whether anyone carrying ads for scams could be reported to the authorities as involved in frauds as well? Perhaps in a co-conspirator fashion? If the media can be convinced that they're helping scams by accepting ads from them and could be liable, then perhaps they might be willing to cut off those businesses and thus strike a serious blow at the scams.

delbois

05-24-2006, 12:44 AM

That does raise an interesting point. In the UK there are a number of checks and balances to ensure that ads conform to an industry and governmental standard. Each group of media has it's own copy control committee, they are overseen and controlled by The Advertising Standards Committee. TV and others have their own controls. Over and above all this the media themselves will editoriallly turn the spotlight on any advertisers they suspect to be less than honest. The International Advertising Association, of which I was once a member, has always been a strong supporter of trustworthy advertising and been very active in trying to spread the ethic of "Good practice" throughout the world of advertising. There are also a number of schemes organised and run by the media that re-imburse their readers or viewers in the event of their becoming a victim of scammers by responding to one of their ads that turns out to be a scam. I would bet that there is some redress at law against a medium that knowingly ran ads that were known to be scams. That's why I posted my original comment. Finally I must say that in the 30 years I was working in the media business in the UK I never heard of any medium deliberately carrying an ad they knew to be fraudulent.

CaoPaux

07-10-2006, 11:31 PM

Reposting: 06-06-2006, 09:40 AM
crobinator
Board fanatic

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melisande
I wrote to Peter Parente about CLA, expressing my doubts. This is his reply to me. It didn't make me any wiser.

"I prefer not to comment on them. If I say anything good then the chatroom warriors try to turn me into the bad guy. I am already on the predators and editors list(which only means something in their world) because those morons have a problem with CLA, yet all my authors praise what I do. An agent should only make money when they make you money. If you think you need referrals to certain services then do, if not don t. I m sorry but the headaches of that soap opera have me walking away and focusing on my work.

Thanks,

Pete
Opportunities come from knocking on doors until they open! " That is probably the most intelligent piece of materials he's come up with. Hoorah.
__________________ 06-06-2006, 03:00 PM
Evaine
Esteemed New Member

I found out about them from the UK magazine Writer's Forum, and I've emailed them with a complaint. In my case it wasn't the adverts that hooked me, but an article recommending the Children's Literary Agency.
I've told them I wont be buying their magazine again.
Fortunately, I found this site before I got too far in. 06-06-2006, 03:11 PM
Roger J Carlson
Absolute Cow Pie
Mod Squad Member

Quote:
Originally Posted by crobinator
That is probably the most intelligent piece of materials he's come up with. Hoorah. But this is what disturbs me about Peter Parente:

"I am already on the predators and editors list (which only means something in their world) because those morons have a problem with CLA, yet all my authors praise what I do."

All his authors? Is he an agent too? Did he see Children's Literary Agency and say, "Hey, I could do that too."?

I can't find him on P&E either. Does he go under a different name? This is all very confusing.
__________________
--Roger J. Carlson 06-14-2006, 05:50 AM
LucyEllenH
One of the Locals

Quote:
Originally Posted by delbois
Yes, well in that case someone should tell Google the facts of life! They shouldn't be exempt from properly controlling their ads. Oh, please! Just trying to find a 24-hour pharmacy on Google included half a dozen sidebar ads on getting narcotics and other controlled substances without a prescription! Google is just in it for the money, as is just about every other advertiser on the net.
__________________
Lucy 06-16-2006, 04:54 AM
delbois
Esteemed New Member

Lucy.
I am well aware that all isn't as it should be. Improper ads do appear on Google and other sites too, and of course they are in it for the money...so are all other media. My point, that I clearly didn't make very well, is that no medium should be allowed to knowingly publish ads, or anything else, that seeks to mislead or cheat the readers or viewers of that medium. What's so special about Google and the other sites that they should be exempt from such controls?
delbois 06-16-2006, 01:26 PM
Richard
13th Triskaidekaphobe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger J Carlson
I can't find him on P&E either. Does he go under a different name? This is all very confusing. It's called Tree of Life Publishing. http://www.treeoflifepublishing.com.

Quote:
Tree Of Life Publishing has been able to create a model for their authors to successfully make a career doing what they set out to do, be an author for a living. We have seen the model for success pertain to several genres with the key ingredients being a top quality product, a motivated author, and a publisher that is author friendly. Created and proven by self- published author Peter Parente the elementary school tour model is the foundation for author success in our company today. Self-published is pretty much the key phrase in that, I feel.
__________________
i have a website. it's very blue indeed. 06-19-2006, 12:02 PM
James D. Macdonald
Dawnolite Sparklecow
Absolute Sage

Ann Crispin recently posted this in another thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC Crispin
IMPORTANT! Have you had a PROBLEM with The Literary Group???

If so, Writer Beware wants to hear from you!

Please go to Writer Beware's blog and read the most recent posts there, and then write to me, Anncrispin. My email address is:

anncrispin@aol.com

If you get a bounce (Aol can be wonky) send your letter to Writer Beware, at beware@sfwa.org, to my attention.

Now is your chance to DO SOMETHING.

Let me hear from you, please! Read the blog entries, then write to me!

www.accrispin.blogspot.com

Thanks!

-Ann C. Crispin
Chair, Writer Beware
www.writerbeware.com
__________________ 06-25-2006, 01:27 PM
jeannie anderson
Esteemed New Member

Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1
re childrens literary agency

i got scammed too recently it wasnt until after my money was sent through on the 1st june that i found the writers beware pages on the internet ive asked for my £77 sterling back but they say they never got it thechildrens literary agency are nothing but low down dirty rotten thieving (i think you ll excuse me for my anger)
i paid the international money tranfer costs also i just want my money back all of it ive the reciept to say it was sent
i sacraficed to get my writting so called critiqued and they deny getting payment they should be struck off all agent reference pages as well as all the other fraudsters
its just so unfair theyre allowed to get away with so much of peoples hard earned cash

nunchuckgirl

07-12-2006, 09:29 AM

I just want to take a moment to say thank you to everyone for all of your posts about this agency. I had just received an email from CLA stating their interest in my project and was strongly considering sending them a manuscript. I'm glad I didn't waste the time. It's a lesson learned for me. By the way, picking apart their grammar was a hilarious and nice touch. Well done.

Lavendar

07-13-2006, 03:41 AM

I got the same thing. Offered me a contract right away. It's a SCAM!!!! I feel lucky, she didn't get my money. I checked The Childrens Literary Agency out on Preditors & Editors. Out of the hundreds of publishers, she was in the TOP 20 WORST!!! Ditch her. I sent her an e-mail and told her to destroy my ms. Do the same or better yet don't send her anything.
Lavendar

Lavendar

07-13-2006, 03:52 AM

I too thought I got lucky getting a contract so quick. It's a SCAM!!! I was lucky, she didn't get my money. I checked her out on Preditors & Editors. Of all the hundreds of publishers, she was in the TOP 20 WORST!!! I did send in a ms, and when I found out about her I e-mailed her and told her that I checked her out and to destroy my story. If you sent her any thing do the same or if you haven't DON'T!!! A legitimat publisher will not offer you a contract so soon. Go with a known publisher and good luck.

Lavendar

07-13-2006, 04:01 AM

Jami
I have all the e-mails that I got from Ms/Mr. Fine. I will gladly send them to who ever wants to preuse them.

Lavendar

07-13-2006, 04:47 AM

Lavendar

07-13-2006, 09:23 PM

Amen George D. MacDonald. Tell it like it is. Is Georgina Sherry Fine or is Sherry Fine Georgina and/or how many others? They wanted me to send them $70 to $90 for a critique of my work. Thank god I found P&E before I sent them any money. Apparently that wouldn't be the first or last fee from what I've read on the boards. I sent an e-mail telling Sherry that I had looked her up on P&E and she was in the top 20 worst and that she should be ashamed of herself, which obviously she will never be, and find a legitimate way to make a living. Lot of good that done, huh! I also told her to destroy the ms I sent her via e-mail. I didn't hear from her again (surprise, surprise) but I saved all her e-mails to me. I didn't know how wide spread she/he/they were. They're making tons of money! I'm sorry for the ones who got taken. She is more detrimental than just making us angry and taking our money. How many dreams has she destroyed by her actions. How many gave up after Georgina/Sherry/??? gave them a negative on their work and they didn't know about P&E or this site or one like it? But I hope they find one. I hope none gave up, but we all know how fragile the ego is. ST and LCA should be on this and every other message board each and every day. I have learned so much just by reading these boards. Keep the word going around about this scum scam. You did a fine job George and we thank you.

Lavendar

07-13-2006, 09:48 PM

I have already replied, clicked on the wrong button. How do you cancel this thing.

nunchuckgirl

07-14-2006, 05:01 AM

Me thinks if it sounds too good to be true, then it most certainly is. My, my, haven't we had and interesting life! Private Investigator, Investment Banker, Successful Author, War Hero!!!! Too bad Mr. Peepers didn't use his spell check on his post. Maybe reading wasn't on his agenda. Let's keep up the good work on discrediting CLA. I can't think of anyone who deserves it more. A con is a con!!!

Lavendar,

Let me just LOL uncontrolably for a few minutes. I thought the exact same thing, as I'm sure everyone did. This guy has to be the most pompous, self-important ******* on the the face of the planet. Good riddens and many hearty chuckles at this pathetic and pretentious looser.

Annamichelle

08-05-2006, 08:37 PM

Just wanted to say a big thank you. I was going to sign with CLA but decided to do some investigating first as internal alarm bells were ringing. I am really glad I came across your web site.

Dekomposer

08-11-2006, 07:29 PM

Roger J Carlson

08-11-2006, 07:34 PM

Every web site is trying to get readers to subscribe to services for which there is a fee. They promise the earth and deliver little; the CLA is probably no different but the question one should ask is, at the outset they request that you submit an outline of your idea or ms.......has anyone ever been rejected at this stage? Given that supply outstrips demand, a genuine agency would not accept all that was sent to it...........The second question is: have they ever sold a manuscript to a reputable publisher that only considers agented manuscripts? CLA fails that test too.

see, the proof of the pudding is in the eating!So good to see someone use the correct version of this aphorism. ;)

Dekomposer

08-11-2006, 07:38 PM

I am English Roger, so that would explain it!!!!!

delbois

08-16-2006, 09:56 PM

At the top of this page there is a link headed " Literary Agents" . Click on it, look at the name at the top of the list....am reading something that isn't there? or.....?
Delbois

LloydBrown

09-04-2006, 11:06 PM

I received this e-mail quite some time ago, meant to post it and never did. Now I'm cleaning the trash out of my mailbox and figured I'd post it here to help paint the picture of CLA and their associate, Peter Parente. Roger Carlson received the same e-mail, according to the cc in the header.

I just wanted to see why you all feel the need to continually bash whoever doesn't fully agree with you. I told the CLA people I want nothing more to do with them after I had emailed Roger. It isn't worth the headache.

I provide services through Tree Of Life Publishing. Authors come to me from referrals for doing a good job with others. I do not do one bit of advertising. I don't need to hear from anyone there what I am qualified to do because that is a blind comment. You don't know me. I run a great business. Just because you have a problem with those other people you don't need to tie me in because I don't do any business with them. If you would like I can provide you with contact information to every author I work with and see what they think. There aren't many, but the referrals are growing. I think 7-8 now. You can see them all on my site www.treeoflifepublishing.com. Do you believe anyone does good business? From day 1 I have been honest and put everything out on the table. You want me to be the bad guy for some reason.

I didn't know any of the other agencies. They first came to me when they formed CLA a little over a year ago and I mentioned my relationship with them never stating they sold my books. Why would I know about the other agencies? They did have people to buy my publishing co. Those guys seemed a bit shady so I pulled out. Again to go over my friend Dorothy. I never said she sold anything for them. Listen to what I am saying. She sold 2 of her books as Barbara Ann Blythe. She has that name registered as an agent. She sold Charlie The Lost Dog to Scholastic and Twin Pickle to Henry Holt. Those were her books. I don't know everything she sold, but if you would like me to get that information I can. I know she freelanced and sold works for other authors. Mostly friends. The point I was making originally is that I personally know this wonderful 80 year old woman who was working for CLA for a few months before getting scared off. She was actively trying to sell manuscripts. I was bringing up a point that apparently they did have 1 person I knew of that was working for authors. I can't speak for the rest of the company. I am not defending them. That is a fact. How does that get turned into a negative.

About return on equity. I'm sorry if you don't like my terminology, but I am a businessman. I am not trying to impress anyone. Why do you feel like trying to insult me? The point I use that for is any type of investment. I own houses. If I buy a house for $500 and have to put 20% or I can get the same house with 100% financing and only pay closing my return on equity would be better.

In this business I spent $5,000 on a publicist. She got me a few small town reviews. I had more success on my own. I have tried print adds for $ and the book didn't see sales from it. I just like to know that if I spend a dollar I can make more than that. I found success in school tours. I hired someone to book me into schools. I pay him $500 per week. He can book me into 2 schools a day for a week in a week. Between my honorarium and book sales I net a minimum of $10,000 per week. That is a good "return on equity". I see comments about how I am not qualified to work with authors. I at least give them the ability to make money. I do well for myself as an author. Mostly for my school models tour. I help people with business. I am sorry if I am not the traditional writer services person you are looking for. That doesn't mean I don't do a good job.

I am currently working with an investment banker and one of the top SEC attorney's to role my publishing company and production company into a shell and then raise money through a secondary offering for a Peeper Adventures TV show. The creator and Executive producer of the Reading Rainbow, Twila Liggett, is now my executive producer. She has 24 Emmys, 9 for outstanding Children's series. She is all about children's education as am I. Our goal is to bring back quality children's programing that is educational as well as entertaining. When do I become credible in your eyes? Not that that matters to me, but I just don’t understand your issue with me. You are fighting against someone who is doing what you do. Helping authors. I keep the offer open to chat with me. My numbers are on my sites. I just don’t know what you are looking for from me. I have explained my relationship with CLA and have even ended it.

It's too tedious to respond to, even now. It would be nice if the sockpuppets would stick to one concept from sentence to sentence, or even make sense. But then, they wouldn't be good sockpuppets.

suelei

09-21-2006, 07:35 AM

Wow...I am so glad that I checked this forum. I actually sent a query to CLA and received the same letter that so many others apparently have. I'm just glad I didn't send them my ms.

LloydBrown

09-21-2006, 07:38 AM

Wow...I am so glad that I checked this forum. I actually sent a query to CLA and received the same letter that so many others apparently have. I'm just glad I didn't send them my ms.

Good for you.

Anybody keeping track of the hash marks on the wall, by the way? It seems we've seen a bunch of "You guys saved me"s here the past couple of months.

CaoPaux

09-21-2006, 08:09 PM

Good for you.

Anybody keeping track of the hash marks on the wall, by the way? It seems we've seen a bunch of "You guys saved me"s here the past couple of months.C'mon over here (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26990) and cut another notch on the gun belt. :e2chain:

Dave4378

10-16-2006, 10:52 PM

Hi. I am new to this thread and have received a request from the Children's Literary Agency to get a third party to critique my story that I submitted to them. After reading many of the posts in this forum, I see that they do not have a favorable view in the eyes of many of the forumers and have become skeptical about doing any further business with them. As a writer going into the agency-searching world for the first time, is it acceptable to ask an agency who they have represented in the past as well as what works have they successfully gotten published?Thanks in advance for your assistance.

K1P1

10-16-2006, 11:42 PM

As a writer going into the agency-searching world for the first time, is it acceptable to ask an agency who they have represented in the past as well as what works have they successfully gotten published?Thanks in advance for your assistance.

Yes, yes, absolutely, yes. And after they tell you who they represented and the published works, verify that they actually were published and that it actually was this agent who made the deals.

yelena

10-23-2006, 08:12 PM

Got stung (not a big amount, but it still smarts!) by another literary agency that was actively pursuing manuscripts whose name later surfaced on a reliable board such as this one as being nothing more than a scam, so I'm a bit wary this time around. I'm only inquiring about Children's Literary Agency though, as I haven't read any negative comments about them so far. Has anyone out there heard of them? worked with them? Would appreciate any feedbacks. Thanks muchly!
----------

Emma, I got snared into The Children's Literary Agency and Writer's Literary & Publishing Services scam. I actually sent them my MS and paid for a critique. After that, they gave me an agent - Georgina Scott and asked me to pay again for. Then I found this site and wrote to Victoria. I like to say Thanks to Victoria Strauss, which really saved me! I did NOT sign and return their contract.

Dave4378

10-25-2006, 07:40 PM

I received a copy of the contract form for the Children's Literarcy Agency. One of the questions ask about other "Contacts" that I may be working with that can be excluded if my book were to sell through that contact. Can a writer have multiple agents working for him/her? Pardon my ignorance on this subject, but I was surprised by the question. Thanks for your help.

James D. Macdonald

10-25-2006, 09:10 PM

No, you can only have one agent at a time (for a particular medium -- you may have both a film agent and a literary agent at the same time; you can have both a foriegn and domestic agent at the same time). You can't have two domestic literary agents at once.

Presumably CLA doesn't want to approach any publisher you've been talking to on your own.

KingNova61

10-26-2006, 08:03 PM

WOW!! I am swimming in a sea of confusion.......I am an infant in the world of agents, publishers and writers. I also received an e-mail from CLA saying they liked the synopsis about my stories.......but after stumbling on to this message board and reading all of the statements on here, I don't know which way to turn. All I know is that the children, that over the past 15 years have read my stories, love them and want them in printed book form (instead of sheets of paper). So where does one turn to without having to shell out a small fortune?? Any input you all might have would be a godsend to me. I don't want a war, I just want to make children happy with my work........

Soccer Mom

10-26-2006, 08:41 PM

Hi, KingNova. If you are simply seeking a way to self-publish some stories for family and friends, there are much better and cheaper options than CLA. Checkout the "Self-publishing" forum here or look at options such as LULA. If you are wanting to find an agent and a reputable, royalty paying publisher who pays you for your stories, again CLA is not an option for achieving that.

KingNova61

10-26-2006, 09:25 PM

Roger J Carlson

10-26-2006, 09:28 PM

You might want to query childrens publishers directly. Many of them are open to unagented submissions. I'd look in www.writersmarket.com (it's a yearly subscription) and search for childrens markets. There are some surprisingly big names that don't require an agent.

LloydBrown

10-26-2006, 09:45 PM

Unless they've changed it, you can get a one-month subscription to Writer's Market for $3.99, I think. If you think it's useful (many of us consider it indispensible), you can sign up for a year.

KingNova61

10-27-2006, 12:02 AM

Thanks for the info........Just signed up and going to see where it leads me........

qblchick

10-27-2006, 08:29 PM

This is really disturbing because I have a contract with them and they are reviewing another manuscript. But they gave me pretty good feedback on my work. And I have received correspondence with an agent. They have been answering my questions long after the critique. as for illustrations:

> I have reviewed your manuscript at length and am
> confident that it is in
> great shape and ready to be put in front of
> potential buyers. There is
> just one more step to take first, as follows:
>
> Attached you will find our simple hotsheet form.
> Would you please take
> a minute and fill it out and e-mail it back to me.
> The form should be
> self-explanatory.
>
> Once we receive the information I will review it and
> it will be placed
> into our searchable database. Once in the database
> our Agents can
> easily access all the information about your
> property and forward it to
> the buyers that are interested. (We call this the
> LFN Database, which
> stands for "What are you Looking For Now?". This is
> the main question
> our Agents use when working with buyers. When they
> get a LFN, our
> agents go to the database and look for your work.
>
> We have a number of other ways that we market your
> work which I will
> explain once I receive your completed hotsheet form.
>
> With regard to illustrations, you should understand
> that publishers do
> not always publish the illustrations provided by the
> author mostly they
> prefer to use an illustrator with whom they have an
> existing business
> relationship. What I advise most of my authors is
> that we should have
> some sample illustrations prepared to use during the
> pitching process.
> I will require the sample illustrations in about a
> month so let me know
> if your illustrator will be able to meet that time
> frame, thank you.
>
> I look forward to hearing from you.

They also asked me to fill up a hotsheet. My question is, if they are a scam, why bother to continue correspondence way past payment? Shouldn't they be concentrating on scamming other authors instead of making you fill up hotsheets and writing about details on illustrators?

I think they are small agency trying to look big to build up a database of stories, sort of a shot gun approach. Sort of like stock photography thing -- but for writers. You won't get quality representation and you'll probably get a small chance to get published but I think it's a real agency. I don't know. Maybe. It could be that I'm just in denial.

UrsulaV

10-27-2006, 08:50 PM

My question is, if they are a scam, why bother to continue correspondence way past payment? Shouldn't they be concentrating on scamming other authors instead of making you fill up hotsheets and writing about details on illustrators?

Because there's always ways to make more money on you.

If they've gotten cash from you already, they KNOW you're willing to give them money. That's the scammer's biggest hurdle. Once they know you'll send them money, they can start sliding in more fees--"Hey, this isn't working, our agent suggested a professional editor, we recommend so-and-so," and there's another fee. "Hey, this agent wants to represent you, they'll require $X for their time." Etc, etc, ad nauseum.

The one time payment was nice for them, but they're undoubtedly hoping they can weasel even more money out of you.

Also--if you haven't read the "Children's Literary Agency" thread over in the Bewares, go forth! Do so! They've got a lot more info there, which will hopefully shed some light on the scam.

Roger J Carlson

10-30-2006, 11:15 PM

James D. Macdonald

10-31-2006, 01:41 AM

Next up -- the suggestion that you get a web page (only $145). Then, after the publishers don't come to your web page, going on the "aggressive agent" plan (only $90 to have them contact five publishers). And so on.

Endlessly inventive, that's our boy Bobby Fletcher.

Lorraine

12-01-2006, 07:17 PM

Roger J Carlson

12-01-2006, 07:19 PM

JonnyBGood

01-04-2007, 12:05 AM

I sent this agency a synopsis of a story that I have been working on for a long time. The package was as well put together as I could make it. I was delighted but a little skeptical when I received an email two days later expressing interest in my work and asking for a complete manuscript. The email seemed to be a little too much of a hard sell. I decided to submit another story invented on the spot; "Duck's Feathers”, the poignant tale of a duckling growing up on a farm. The poor creature comes to the realization that its fate is to provide down to stuff ski jackets for an outdoor clothing store. The story follows its attempts to avoid this nasty fate. My resume claimed that I ran a business training vicious pets.
Guess what? Two days later an email arrived expressing interest in this absolute drivel. Obviously the whole thing is a scam but I still did not understand how this company made money out of all this until I came across this web site. Obviously the scam is charging for the services of editors and illustrators. Thanks for the tip.

I thought your idea was funny so I decided to try it myself, only push the envelope a little further. To their credit, they didn't bite...yet (it's been a couple weeks).

Here's the synopsis I sent them:

As the story opens, something is amiss in the old pond at Old McCormick's farm. The animals around the pond sense something is wrong, but they can't put their finger--paw--on it.

That's when the killing starts. First the old bullfrog, Horton, turns up slaughtered and dismembered. Who did it? Why? Who's next? Two days later Sammie the Salamander's head is whacked off and nailed to the old fence post. What's going on? The following day, Darla the bunny rabbit has her hind leg savagely ripped off; she narrowly escapes with her life.

Buster the Prairie Dog has had enough, he knows something has to be done. The carnage has to be stopped, at any cost. He ventures into the neighboring farmhouse and finds a stack of dynamite--an answered prayer. He takes the dynamite back to the pond, where he waits for nightfall. When it's dark he blows the pond to smithereens.

He cries a bit at the end, realizing all the friends he's lost, but takes a valuable lesson away from the experience: Doing the right thing can hurt--sometimes.

Ron Ewing

01-19-2007, 05:59 PM

I'm sorry to admit that I signed up with this outfit in November 2005 after paying $70 for a critique. After submitting the signed contract, I was allocated a "contact editor", who promised to provide me with monthly updates on the progress made selling my childrens novel. Needless to say, I have not heard a word from them in over 12 months!
Am I being paranoid in thinking that I've been stuffed?
Living in Scotland, its a bit difficult to go round to their offices - if they have any - to chase them them up, but then again, I don't see that it is part of the relationship to chase them up, or am I wrong in thinking that?
Having seen Victoria's entries and the list of agencies associated with this outfit, I'm wondering if I am wasting my time trying to sell my work in the U.S. Can anyone reassure me, as I'm about ready to give up?

Roger J Carlson

01-19-2007, 06:10 PM

Stuffed? You bet. You'll never get anything out of Children's Literary or any other of Robert Fletcher's so called agencies.

As for wasting your time with trying to sell in the US? I can't see why. There are lots of legitmate agents in the US. Finding the right one for you can be challenging, but not impossible if your work is publishable.

Toothpaste

01-19-2007, 09:23 PM

Have you read this whole thread? There is some good advice here and in the Bewares section of this forum that tell you how to get your rights back and how to terminate business with them. Unfortunately you have been scammed, but don't feel stupid. Scams like these are incredibly elaborate and sophisticated. And when it seems like the agent doesn't charge you, you can't quite see why it should be a scam. It's only after you realise that they are in cahoots with the editing company you paid for, that things start to make sense.

Learn from the experience and move on.

And you can sell your MS to any country out there. I'm Canadian with an agent in the UK. I have another Canadian bud who has an american agent. The publishing world crosses borders.

Martin Hall-Kenny

01-21-2007, 04:40 PM

I am yet another who fell for the drivel to the extent that I sent the manuscript. Fortunately, I read this thread and have attempted to recall the e-mail containing the manuscript. I have also not paid any money and, should they ask 'why?' I've issued a recall, I can simply say I have no confidence in their ability to do anything for me. Thank you forumites.

Steven Lloyd

01-27-2007, 11:26 AM

Agents don’t come to you, you go to them. Most times finding an agent is just as hard as finding a publisher. I’ve known some legitimate agents to ask for minimal charges as far as phone calls, but nothing about editing. True agents will tell you to work on the story and resubmit if editorial work is needed. Or they’ll reject on that principle.

Steven

Ron Ewing

01-29-2007, 06:00 PM

Many thanks to all who offered words of wisdom and encouragement.
As they say - you live and learn.
I have now cancelled my contract with this lot and have started trawling the Agent List again. Hopefully, someone will recognise the potential before too long and before my eyesight starts to fade.

James D. Macdonald

02-27-2007, 03:55 AM

There's a new scam in town: Writers Literary Agency (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56488). They've supposedly "acquired" The Literary Agency Group (home of Sydra Techniques/ST Literary Agency/Stylus Literary Agency/The New York Literary Agency/Christian Literary Agency/Childrens Literary Agency/Poets Literary Agency/The Screenplay Agency).

Same cast of characters, same lack of sales, same fraud.

James D. Macdonald

03-06-2007, 12:26 AM

The Childrens Literary Agency has renamed itself as WL Childrens Agency (The Writers Literary Agency - Children's Division), www.wlchildrensagency.com

Bealings

04-08-2007, 01:48 AM

Hi, this is my first venture into a writers forum - or any forum if it comes to that. I am an artist, and wrote a childrens book around a pictorial 'story' about a dog. I 'found' the Childrens Literary Agency, and after much correspondence agreed to go along with them, and took a contract for 1 year.
To be fair, the only time they asked me for money was a small amount for a 'Critique' which they said was necessary. The result of the critique was such that I decided to do my own edit. (the book is only 85 pages).
The critique also said that really the book did not need illustrations, but that if I had them, so much the better.
The manuscript is now apparently 'on offer' to publishers .
CLA have said that I can leave it with them to go the slow route, or the process could be speeded up by my providing a basic web site ( they would organise it for me at a low price ($ 148) and this would enable publishers to access the work more easily .

I have no axe to grind either way about CLA - I just want to get my book published, but just recently I did just begin to wonder a bit...........
I wish I had found this site earlier..but them maybe all is ok? How do I know, all the letters I have seen on the subject are dated 2005. What has anybody found out since then?
Can somebody give me any info. If they are not straight, what is my next step. I sold my gun.
Bealings

James D. Macdonald

04-08-2007, 03:01 AM

Roger J Carlson

04-08-2007, 03:34 AM

Can somebody give me any info. If they are not straight, what is my next step. I sold my gun.
BealingsBefore you go any farther, read ALL of these threads. They are ALL the same bunch of crooks:

Writers’ Literary Agency & Marketing Company (formerly The Literary Agency Group, Inc.) AVOID
http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13517

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56488WL Children’s Agency (aka The Writers Literary Agency – Children’s Division) (formerly The Children’s Literary Agency) (Dorothy Walker, Robert West) http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8312http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8286Christian Literary Agency, The http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13514New York Literary Agency, The (Sherry Fine)http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=729WL Poets Agency (formerly The Poets Literary Agency) http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19104WL Screenplay Agency (formerly The Screenplay Agency) http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20359Stylus Literary Agency (formerly ST Literary Agency, formerly Sydra Techniques) (Robert Fletcher, Jill Mast, Mark Bredt) http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=929 http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=529( they would organise it for me at a low price ($ 148) and this would enable publishers to access the work more easily .This is just one example of how they are lying to you.

They are not giving you a web"site" for $148. They are giving you a web"page" for $148. There's a difference. A webpage is just a page on their site. You don't own the domain name. Chances are very slim that anyone will ever find it. And it costs them absolutely NOTHING to create it. They already have the infrastructure in place. All of the $148 is profit for them.

Furthermore a website for $148 is NOT a low price. There are many, many places where you can create your own website for free. They have templates available that you can just fill in the blanks, so you don't even need any web development expertise.

But even if you decided to be a little more professional and go with hosted site, the costs are far lower for an entry level site. A domain name like www.bealings.com (http://www.bealings.com) will cost $16. A webhost like www.webhost4life.com (http://www.webhost4life.com) will sell you webspace for as little as $4.95/month. Then find some bright middle-schooler to create a site or just download free templates from any number of sites (just Google on "website templates").

The point is that while $148 sounds like a reasonable price, it is actually very steep.

Another option would be to create a blog for free at any number of blogging hosts. Go ask around at the Blogging (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=90)forum. That would actually be far more valuable than a webpage on CLA's site. Get involved in blogging communites, share links to other's blogs. This sort of social networking will get you farther ahead at far lower cost.

LloydBrown

04-08-2007, 03:38 AM

The point is that while $148 sounds like a reasonable price, it is actually very steep.

It's also an outrageous cost for something that won't sell your book. Publishers don't browse websites looking for their next book. They already have stacks of manuscripts in their office that they'll never catch up on. That's not how books are sold.

Find a real agent. At the same time, send your manuscript to publishers who don't require an agent.

James D. Macdonald

04-08-2007, 05:10 AM

Would you like to see one of their actual web pages? Here you go:

http://www.stauthor.com/6044/Suffocate.htm

Check out the praise from the author's next-door neighbor and best friend!

Do you really want to pay $148 for that?

And, as Lloyd points out, as far as selling your book it's completely useless.

================

More line-by-lines rebutting (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=573353&postcount=22) Robert (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=469960&postcount=35) Fletcher's (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=471040&postcount=36) Nonsense (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=467892&postcount=31).

Bealings

04-09-2007, 02:36 AM

Sure. You pay the critique fee. A mere $85. Then you get the web page, only $145. Then you get the "aggressive agent" program, $90, to have them contact publishers. And so forth and so on.

Here's what you don't get: a sale to a publisher. Ever.

No, all is not okay. They haven't sold anything. Go ahead, ask them. What have they sold? Which editors do they work with most often? Who are some of their best-known clients?

We can show you the letters that you're going to get before you get them. Their claims have (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1201828&postcount=330) already been refuted (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1227128&postcount=35).

Save yourself some time, some money, and some aggravation. Find an honest agent now.

Thanks for the good news, James ! To be fair I think I had got the message last night after I had read all the letters. Ron and I are obviously (naive) kindred spirits. Still, it's better to find out early in the game that one has been stupid than wait until the end.
I am interested to see if Georgina comes back to answer the questions, though. What's the record for holding one's breath?

Bealings

04-09-2007, 04:29 PM

Not wishing to make a fool of myself twice, does anyone know if the Copyright Registration Services.com is genuine or otherwise?

In hope, Bealings

Roger J Carlson

04-09-2007, 04:42 PM

Not wishing to make a fool of myself twice, does anyone know if the Copyright Registration Services.com is genuine or otherwise?

In hope, BealingsI don't find anything called Copyright Registration Services.com. Is this a website?

In general, you don't need to copyright your work. The publisher does that for you.

There's a great FAQ in the novels forum about copyrighting:
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=657721&postcount=9

Look for Do I Need to Copyright My WIP? near the bottom and check out those threads.

There's another good FAQ, here: http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58845

Bealings

04-09-2007, 05:16 PM

I don't find anything called Copyright Registration Services.com. Is this a website?

In general, you don't need to copyright your work. The publisher does that for you.

There's a great FAQ in the novels forum about copyrighting:
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=657721&postcount=9

Look for Do I Need to Copyright My WIP? near the bottom and check out those threads.

There's another good FAQ, here: http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58845

It is in the header bar at the top of page 9. They say one should always take out a copyright protection before submitting work to an Agent. They charge $50 for the pleasure. Thanks for the info, I will check out what you gave me.

Bealings.

LloydBrown

04-09-2007, 05:58 PM

Page 9 of this thread? Are you talking about the Google banner right above the words

Ads provided by Google and not endorsed by AW

? If so, repeat after me: "I will never reply to ads found on the Internet."

James D. Macdonald

04-09-2007, 06:18 PM

They say one should always take out a copyright protection before submitting work to an Agent.

They lie. (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45759)

Roger J Carlson

04-09-2007, 06:57 PM

I just started a thread in B&BC about Copyright Registration Services (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1254103#post1254103).

James D. Macdonald

04-11-2007, 04:59 PM

NEW ALERT FROM WRITER BEWARE: Writers' Literary Agency & Marketing Company (formerly The Literary Agency Group)

The Literary Agency Group, a business owned or controlled by Robert M. Fletcher of Boca Raton, Florida, changed its name in February 2007 to Writers' Literary Agency & Marketing Company (a.k.a. WL Writers' Literary Agency).

This umbrella group includes or has included the following agencies:

* Christian Literary Agency
* New York Literary Agency
* Stylus Literary Agency (formerly ST Literary Agency, formerly Sydra-Techniques)
* WL Children's Agency (a.k.a. Children's Literary Agency)
* WL Poet's Agency (a.k.a. Poet's Literary Agency)
* WL Screenplay Agency (a.k.a. The Screenplay Agency)
* Writers' Literary & Publishing Services Company (the editing arm of the above-mentioned agencies)

Since this company began operating in 2001 under the name Sydra-Techniques, Writer Beware has received hundreds of complaints and advisories of fee-charging, editing referrals, and other questionable practices. We're not aware that the company has a significant track record of commercial book sales under any of its names, despite its claims to the contrary.

Writers who have had trouble with Robert M. Fletcher or any of the above-named companies, and who are or were residents of the state of Florida, please get in touch with Ann Crispin at anncrispin@aol.com (or beware@sfwa.org , if the AOL address bounces), even if you have previously contacted her. Please provide complete contact information.

Kathystoob

04-22-2007, 05:45 PM

Hi Emma~
I have been under contract with these clowns for the past year. To date, they have done ZERO to market my work, in my opinion. Each step of the way they request that you do this or that at a fee and refer you to 'a sister company' that gladly takes your money and does little. Once I called them out on this, they stopped doing anything and dropped me. They make promises to contact you by a certain date and only will respond days after you contact them first. They refuse to give a phone number and insist all communications be via email. (if you have a contract with an agent and they don't give you their phone number, that's a red flag to me. And I said this to them....then got dropped.)

I would stay away from these clowns. You'll end up spending a ton of money and will get little in return.

As a side note, my work was completely illustrated and I got a letter from them asking me if I wanted to be connected to one of their illustrators (at a fee of course) and I was like did you even read what I sent to you since you clearly don't know my work at all!

Just be warned!!! Good Luck to you on your journey!!

James D. Macdonald

04-22-2007, 07:00 PM

If I may ask, Kathystoob, what was the total dollar amount you sent to Fletcher?

Kathystoob

04-23-2007, 12:50 AM

Honestly, I can't remember but I can go back and search it out.... I had my own webpage so I gave them my link and I edited my own work since the only change that was 'recommended' was changing a sentence from "I woke up this morning and hopped out of bed..." to "This morning I woke up and hopped out of bed..."....they initially wanted me to have one of their expensive editors do that and I pushed back. I honestly pushed back on just about everything and Georgina told me that I was 'difficult' and should consider finding other representation. I questioned them a lot because I couldn't understand what exactly was being done for my work and they never came right out and explained it, just formed lettered me to death (which I also called them out on...) that resulted in my being dropped.

("I think it is best that you begin looking for another agency. We will continue to finish up any straggler leads that we may have for your, but for whatever reason, your work isn’t resonating with our buyers.

This email will serve as formal notice that we will not be renewing your contract. I wish you the best and hope to hear of your success one day!")

I'll go back review my statements and let you know....

Dancre

04-23-2007, 01:07 AM

Kathy, I"m so sorry this happened to you. And good for you for dropping those clowns. I wish you luck and God's blessings on your writings.

kim

Elektra

04-23-2007, 01:57 AM

Good for you! Being dropped by this agency for being "difficult" is a sure sign that you started asking the right questions, albeit slightly too late to save your cash. Kudos to you for realizing the scam on your own.

Kathystoob

04-23-2007, 05:47 PM

Yea... so after reading this thread...I sent an email to Georgina requesting a detailed accounting of how my fees were spent with dates/names/times for each contact 'made on my behalf' so that I can follow up myself. I'm anticipating no response. I'll share it if I actually receive something but my breath is not being held.

Also wanted to mention something else. About 6 months ago I emailed Georgina and asked that I have my work assigned to another agent...didn't have to be a senior agent...since we clearly have a personality conflict. I was told no. I asked is that because no other agents exist? And I received no response. Senior agent clearly meant ONLY was my guess at the time.

Also, I'm sure Georgina is still on here lurking around under a 'penn name' as she put it. Once the post that stated her last visit was posted she had to have changed that in a hurry so she could be here in stealth mode.

Kathystoob

04-25-2007, 07:43 PM

See below response from Georgina. I have asked for a full refund of all monies paid if they fail to provide information detailing what has been done under this contract...verifiably done. I will be going to the District Attorney's office next and I also let her know that is the next step if I do not hear back with this information in a timely manner. After reading these boards and seeing all the others that basically have paid money to exchange emails in this scam...I will be directing the DA to this site as well for information gathering. If anyone else is interested in being involved, message me. I'm now a completely pissed of NYer and feel this nonsense needs to stop so no one else has to experience this.

"With regard to the publishers we’ve pitched to, unfortunately we no longer send the information out because we have had some overzealous authors make inappropriate calls and we’ve lost some good buyers because of it. We make a commitment to our contacts at the publishers that we will only divulge their names to authors once they are genuinely interested in the manuscript.

Best regards,

Georgina
Senior Agent"

James D. Macdonald

04-25-2007, 09:27 PM

"With regard to the publishers we’ve pitched to, unfortunately we no longer send the information out because we have had some overzealous authors make inappropriate calls and we’ve lost some good buyers because of it. We make a commitment to our contacts at the publishers that we will only divulge their names to authors once they are genuinely interested in the manuscript."

That translates out to: "Nope, we didn't actually submit it anywhere. When authors check up on us (since our spectacular lack of results makes 'em suspicious) editors tend to say 'Who? Never heard of 'em!' "

Actually, I have a theory about how these folks do their business. They sharecrop the actual submissions out to n00bies, the folks in Burning Bush, Wyoming, who woke up one morning in and decided to be literary agents. WL Writers Literary Agency (under whatever name) gets 'em to work for free by promising them a cut of anything they sell, without mentioning that their "system" doesn't work. Fletcher sends a query letter (generated by mail merge using the information the author typed in the "Author Intake Form"), which the poor hapless wannabe-agent uses. After a while of this, Fletcher hits the writer up with a great deal ... from a subsidy publisher.

Just guessing, of course. If "Georgina" or "Sherry" wants to drop by to set me right, hey, I'm all ears.

Perhaps the reason "Georgina" or "Sherry" or whoever doesn't want to say where a thing's been submitted is because "she" literally doesn't know.

Why wait? Talk to the DA right now. Send a note to Ann or Victoria (beware@sfwa.org) and ask what else you can do. A note to the New York Attorney General (since Fletcher claims to be working out of New York) and the Florida Attorney General (since Fletcher is actually working out of Florida) probably wouldn't be out of place either while you're at it.

victoriastrauss

05-01-2007, 07:58 PM

Children's Literary Agency Better Business Bureau report (http://www.newyork.bbb.org/reports/businessreports.aspx?pid=44&page=1&id=90407).

- Victoria

James D. Macdonald

05-09-2007, 10:43 AM

Some more of those on-line pitch pages that they want you to pay $150 for:

www.childrensliteraryagency.com/SneeblySnailGoesToSchool.html

www.childrensliteraryagency.com/AbbiesBouquetOfHats.html

www.childrensliteraryagency.com/HasACatEverToldYouAStory.html

www.childrensliteraryagency.com/OurBestFriendWillie.html

Symphony

06-06-2007, 10:38 PM

I think it's all been said already, but just to add that I'm also a victim of the CLA, although I hesitate to use the word victim since I admit to going in with my eyes open. However, to an unpublished author their pitch is very impressive and, of course, when it's your first book and they LIKE IT, then why not celebrate? I signed the contract with them as I didn't see anything dodgy in the actual wording (and this was never a problem). I then needed to have a professional edit of my work. I have to say that, since it was my first book, I was quite interested in knowing what a pro would say about it, so I never viewed this money as badly spent. Unfortunately, I've come to wonder how 'realistic' my critique was. I stayed with them for a while, but then of course got the letter asking for money for them to draw up query letters, post to publishers, etc. etc. at which point I withdrew my book (amicably) since I no longer trusted their motives.

Ah well ... it was worth a try and I still don't think I 'lost' any money. Rather, I lost confidence, since I no longer trust the nice things they said about my ms.

What I find harder to believe is why almost every writing magazine I pick up is still advertising their services.

Commiserations to all those who were misled.

Symphony

Roger J Carlson

06-06-2007, 10:48 PM

The worst part is not the money they take, but it's the time they steal and hopes and dreams they crush.

Sorry this happened to you. Welcome. Why not post some of your work in Share Your Work (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=26) and see what folks here think?

Soccer Mom

06-15-2007, 01:30 AM

Welcome, Symphony. I hope you find the help around here to restore the confidence they stole from you.

smatsmit

07-03-2007, 09:35 AM

This the first post of my life. Bare with me I am writing naked (in the sense of truth). I just completed the first two steps with WL Children's Agency. I actually just recieved the confirmation email that told me to get a 3rd party critique on my work!!!! Riiiiiiight. I actually found this forum looking for information on the company and think the web portal angels were looking out for me. Actually, tonight I recieved that email from Sherry and as I was scrolling through the form letter there was a little blue number 2 sitting in their response to a Q&A. This is the short cut to the link:

link deleted by moderator as inappropriate

May I just say, I am not bilingual, but I don't need to be when it comes to web addresses; they only speak one languge. Thanks web portal angels for saving me! :snoopy:

Stijn Hommes

07-03-2007, 03:13 PM

Good to hear you found out before you continued any further.
Make sure you investigate the next agent, before you send something to them.

The Lady

07-03-2007, 03:38 PM

What on earth is that website about?
Congrats on your close escape.

Kat Frass

07-03-2007, 04:35 PM

Welcome Smatsmit! I'm sure you enjoy it here. There are some GREAT folks on this board.

BTW - did anyone else notice the naked guy at the bottom of that website? LOL.. He is all crouched over and laying on the ground taking a pic.. but it is obvious he is nekkid.... lol. I just thought that was funny.

The Lady

07-04-2007, 04:16 AM

Yes, I noticed the naked guy. It kinda freaked me out. Naked guys taking pictures and kiddie pictures do not go together.

Dawno

07-04-2007, 04:41 AM

Merged smatsmit's thread with this one to avoid a proliferation of threads about CW/Children's Literary.

shania

08-08-2007, 10:47 PM

The CLA always advertise in the Writers Forum magazine. (Take a look at the August issue) I contacted the editor of the magazine and asked why was his magazine was promoting a 'con' agency. I told him all the con stories. The guy was very rude to me. He said that he wanted hard evidence and proof that people were being ripped off and that they can see no evidence that they are cons. Unless I can provide this, I shouldn't contact them again. He also said that I shouldn't provide forums as evidence and not believe things posted on them.
I nearly fell for the CLA too until I was warned by an editor who works in LA. They were too good to be true.

Roger J Carlson

08-08-2007, 10:50 PM

You're cancelling your subscription, I trust, and telling said rude editor why.

LloydBrown

08-08-2007, 11:05 PM

Shania, is this the British publication whose website is http://www.writers-forum.com?

shania

08-09-2007, 01:55 AM

I never did subscribe. I brought a copy in July (August issue) after a recommendation.
Yes, it is the British magazine.

Katol

08-24-2007, 07:52 PM

Hi, couldn't stop myself from registering so that I could say thanks to basically everyone on this thread (that's the term isn't it?). Having signed my contract with WL on Wednesday I just happened to be surfing the web in my lunch break (well. technically I still had ten minutes to go 'till lunch but my boss is on holiday) and I stumbled over this site. Four hours later (VERY long lunch break) I had finally read every single comment and rushed home to cancel my contract! By the way, it hasn't been mentioned anywhere that the said contract now includes a clause allowing you to terminate it within 72 hours of sending it in! Sadly, since the idiots hadn't even read my MS there were no tears on their side! Anyway, just wanted to add my thanks too - managed to get out of it without spending a Euro/dime! For some one like me who's never been kissed, kicked or run over as far as trying to get into print is concerned it's certainly been an eye opener.

Stone Bridge

10-05-2007, 06:24 PM

Hi, :)

This is my first post, I'm a newbie!
I've just had a narrow escape with WL Children's Agency too, as like Smatsmit I had firstly sent a sample or synopsis if that's right? sorry new to this! :D then I had a reply saying they liked what they had read so far and to send the whole manuscript which I sent, I got a positive reply again saying they would like me to join and also suggesting I get a critique first? This being my first book to get published I thought it all sounded a bit too good to be true? especially after reading some very long emails I realised there was no reference to them having read my work, not even mentioning the title of it, so I smelt a rat, I had wondered if these were an OK agency from there not being any form of address or phone number to get in contact with them? seemed odd.:Shrug:

Glad I hadn't sent any money like Emma, (you must be so mad with them). Your post actually helped me, thank you as I was searching to see if they were legit, and I found this site with you query.

By for now.
SB

RGame

10-09-2007, 08:00 PM

I'm another who almost took this place as a real agency. I submitted a picture book last week, then discovered the agency was a fake a couple hours later -- first from reading their unbelievably long list of letters from satisfied customers who were glad to pay $80 for a critique and then from seeing what was written about them here.

So I was expecting my "query" to be accepted, and of course it was. I decided to have a little fun and make up another picture book in about ten minutes, "Timmy and the Sinister Ducks," which was as stupid as I could make it. I even purposely addressed Sherry as "sir."

Not surprisingly, they like it.

Timmy and the Sinister Ducks

One warm sunny afternoon, Timmy and his father were
visiting the duck pond. Timmy's father showed him how
to feed bread to the ducks, who gobbled up the bread
like they were starving prisoners of war.

"Not too much, Timmy," said Timmy's father. "Feed
them just enough to keep them alive, but not enough to
actually satisfy them."

"Okay, Dad."

"We strike tomorrow at dawn," said Timmy's father.
Then Timmy suddenly realized it wasn't his father who
had spoken.

But who, then?

"We will eat all the humans."

Timmy looked at one of the ducks with surprise. It
was talking.

No. Not talking. Thinking.

Timmy was reading its mind. The ducks had somehow
developed the power to communicate through thoughts.
And so had Timmy!

"They have kept us down for far too long," thought
the duck. "And they will pay for it. WIth blood."

Suddenly Timmy had an idea.

He closed his eyes and squeezed hard and thought:
"Tomorrow's not good for me."

"Who said that?" thought the same duck. He was
obviously the leader of the ducks, their big evil
leader.

"Not me," said another duck. "Although tomorrow's
not really good for me, either"

"Stan's got a point," said another duck. "Let's set
the attack for sometime next week."

"Better yet," thought Timmy, doing his best
impersonation of a duck, "let's not attack at all."

"Who said that?" thought the evil leader of the
ducks.

"Who cares?" thought another duck. "Whoever it was
had a point. Attacking the humans was a dumb idea in
the first place."

"Yes, dumb," thought another duck.

They all paddled off to the other side of the pond,
leaving the evil leader of the ducks all alone. The
evil leader of the ducks stared malevolently at Timmy,
as if he suspected Timmy had something to do with his
plans being foiled but had no proof.

Timmy just smiled.

"Let's go home, Dad," he said.

"Okay, Timmy."

As they walked across the grass, his father said,
"Timmy sure can be bossy at times."

Then Timmy realized his father hadn't spoken. He had
heard his father's thoughts, as well.

"This could be fun," said Timmy.

But then, as they drove home, Timmy saw a duck flying
in the sky and a cold chill went through him, like a
harbinger of doom, or like when he ate an ice cream
too fast.

"It's not over," Timmy thought meaningfully.

THE END

Their response:

Thank you for everything that we have received from you thus far. Our review team believes that your work has commercial potential and we would like to proceed by offering to represent you.

We feel that your concept and writing thus far has potential and that if it
is polished and presented properly, we can sell it.

To take the next step, please read the information below and follow the
instructions at the end of this email. Unfortunately, this email is quite
long, but it has to be as this sets the stage for our working together.

It goes on and on for thousands of words, the usual long email that everyone talks about.

usay

10-20-2007, 03:10 AM

Hi, I have been there, done that. I haven't even had my manuscript returned to me, it has been over a year. It was a fully illustrated children's story. I really cannot believe all the people out there that are just in it for the almighty buck. Someday, we will get published, hang it there.

silverjoy

10-23-2007, 04:17 AM

To Emma and Others,
I am a writer of childrens books. I have been getting contracts and letters of interest from self publishing companies since I sent in my first story for review in 1986 to Vantage Press. Although they really liked the story, I didn't get to publish with them because at that time they wanted $4,000.00 for a full picture book. I had already drew the cover picture but they would have had to draw the inside pictures. Anyway I did not publish with them for the fact that as a new mother at the time I was buying diapers etc. I didn't find out until later that they would have taken payments. Since then I have been contacted by XLIBRIS (who does have a web site from what I saw)
and Roval Publishing. All sounded good including the price. And they would take payments. Of course the book would not be published until all payments were completed in full. HOwever Xlibris would only take credit cards or check no money order. The guy that was working with me was a very nice guy though and he even researched some things for me, even without me using their services. The only thing was I don't use credit cards or checks. The Roval company also sounded good and also they were nice when talking to them on the phone etc. They would take money orders if needed and would work with you on payment plan. They costed alot less than xlibris according to our talk on the phone. I still did not publish with them either. The reason is this; the contract they sent me was only one page. It only spoke of what the Author was contracted to do, but nothing of what they would do for the author etc. Also in that one page the contract did not mention any amount of money that I would have to pay them or that I would be paid once the book was out on the market. It did not even quote the amount I was told on the phone that I would have to pay. So I did not really consider it a contract. The Vantage Press contract in 1986 was more of a contract, it had about ten pages of information of what the publisher would do and what I was required to do including how much money I was contracted to pay and how much money I would get in royalties based on percentage. There was also alot of legal jargon that of course I did not understand at the time. But still it seemed more of a contract.
The other things I do not like about these publishers that offer it Print on demand is that they only give you one book for yourself. All books that are ordered through them are printed as they are ordered. I'm the kind of person that wants at least a hundred copies of my book in my hand, to do with what I want and to know that they actually did something for the money I paid them. especially if it is a couple thousand dollars. PUblishing by law means 'Putting Out to the Public" so if they are just offering me a website to advertise my book and also they advertise it on their own website for me, while they hold it in cyber space waiting for orders to come in then it is not considered published in my opinion. Even if they have printed one copy for me to see what it looks like. In these print on demand publishing houses I have to buy more copies at a discounted price from them. Then I can sell them myself and keep all the monies I make. That just don't seem fair to me. they say they promote the book through amazon.com and Barnesandnobile.com they say they work on getting it into stores for me, but they also say if I give them a list of places I want the book sent they will send it to them etc. well seriously I don't mind promoting my own book. Actually that is what I have been doing for the past 2 years. I am a Published Author of childrens books as of 2005. I self published the book through Silverjoy Publishing House. It's funny because by the time Xlibris and Roval publishing companies had gotten a hold of me by calling me first, I had already published my book and sold quite a few copies over the christmas season. If I want to do print on demand I will do it myself. See I own Silverjoy Publishing House and every book ordered is put together by me, Including the perfect binding that is used in the major companies. I was taught how to do that by a novelist who also had to publish his own 300 page novel that is carried in Barnes and Noble the actual store..
People really love my books and have been buying them quite abit. The cost was alot less than what I would have to pay the print on demand publishers. and all the monies are mine to keep. Yes I know it's really great being published by a big time publisher such as little golden books etc, but if you don't want to keep waiting for rejection or acceptance letters and want to feel that you actually accomplished something then just do it yourself all the way. You can still send things out to the major houses and if you are offered a good contract take it. But don't sell yourself short by just waiting for the big publishing houses to publish your book. Or these pay alot for publishing houses to take your money. I am a people person so I don't mind doing it all. I have found I get alot further that way.

Also one more note and I am not saying anything bad about them cause that writer that says he went through Childrens Literary Agency had some good points, but I looked in my 2006 guide to Literary Agents for their name and they were not in there that I could find. the best way to find the right people to work with you on your books is get and use the updated copies of Writers Market from writers digest and the guide to Literary Agents. Read them well and make an informed selection then go from there. I hope I helped in any kind of way. I am also willing to teach anyone who wants to know how to do it all themselves just how.. There is no charge.