Wisdom in numbers- opinions welcomed

[Nateskate]

I'd appreciate comments on this question. I'd written an Epic Fantasy from beginning to end, and then went into dividing it into books, and from there, began edits.

By conventional wisdom, I submitted book one at under 100 thousand words, actually between 80-90,000, and that one won over a publishing deal.

Now, here's the question, and it's one of wisdom, my novels are partitioned much like Lord of the Rings, which is really one very long novel that follows multiple story lines. And because of this, setting novel lengths can be arbitray to a point.

I know there are fantasy lovers who'd love all books to be 150,000, but my feeling is that there's a point where you separate diehard fantasy fans from the conventional audience, and I'd prefer to draw a universal crowd that includes YA audiences.

What range is the ideal for a Universal audience. Has anyone here guestimated the lengths of the Harry Potter books, the LOTR books?

When I discussed the stage of book two with those involved, and when it would be ready, I was already near 130 K. But now I'm thinking of moving two chapters at the end of book two to the beginning of book three.

Would staying around 100K be the wisest choice if I want to reach the broadest audience? The other consideration, since at this point, a movie deal is also in the works (if all goes well a series), would it be best to partition the books considering movie lengths? The problem with the LOTR being translated into movies was the length of the stories, and having to pair down and eliminate whole chapters.

Any thoughts on numbers are welcome. For the record, I got the opinion that I had some flexibility here, as no one has said to date to stay at such and such a number.

[lfraser]

I'm a diehard fan of the doorstopper novel, as long as it's well-written. I like to get totally immersed in a fictional world. That goes for any genre, by the way.

My sense is that with fantasy you can get away with longer novels. What I've noticed is that sometimes the first book of a series is shorter than the subsequent volumes -- here I'm thinking of Robin Hobb's Assassin trilogy as an example. The first book is quite a bit shorter than the others. I would imagine that once you've got an audience the length of the book is less of an issue.

Of course I'm speaking as a reader.

[clockwatcher]

I think the Harry Potter novels started off considerably shorter then increased in length as the story progressed. The first one was at like 200+ pages and the last one 600+

[David I]

I've always heard LOTR referred to as "more that 300,000 words," but I just did a few words-per-page counts (averages about 470 wpp in the single-volume edition I have), and I come up with 489,000 words (excluding the Appendices).

Keep in mind, BTW, that the decision to publish it as a trilogy was because Unwin and Sons still faced paper shortages in post-war Britain.

(It wasn't the length of LOTR in words that made them have to cut it. It was the sheer amount of event. Stephen King's books are made into movies all the time, and he aims for 180 k on his standalone books. But a lot of those words don't translate into events on a storyline.)

I think the guidelines of less than 100 k are a bit outdated (even for YA, where Rowling shattered the old rules).

In any case, if you've already sold the first book and written through to the end of your story on the rest, then you really ought to sit down with your editor and decide how to parse it up. That's the kind fo thing editors are there for--don't be afraid to discuss it.

[RLSMiller]

Renaissance Learning.

You can find the lengths of some books by searching on the above website.

[Wraith]

Hey, look at Harry Potter. The first books are about 200 pages, the last around 600 and still fans say they're too short. Lord of the Rings are about the same size, but he did the splitting after he wrote it all as a single book, so it doesn't really count.

I dunno. It wouldn't throw me off as a reader, be it fantasy or not, as long as it's a good book. :) What I've heard about the length issue was that a book of 150,000 costs more to print than a 100,000 one and thus is more expensive and is more tricky for a new author to sell. But if you establish an audience, then why not. It's certainly been done.

Couldn't your agent/editor help you with that? It concerns the publishers too, after all.

Good luck with the series. Hope the books do well :)

[Nateskate]

I've always heard LOTR referred to as "more that 300,000 words," but I just did a few words-per-page counts (averages about 470 wpp in the single-volume edition I have), and I come up with 489,000 words (excluding the Appendices).

Keep in mind, BTW, that the decision to publish it as a trilogy was because Unwin and Sons still faced paper shortages in post-war Britain.

(It wasn't the length of LOTR in words that made them have to cut it. It was the sheer amount of event. Stephen King's books are made into movies all the time, and he aims for 180 k on his standalone books. But a lot of those words don't translate into events on a storyline.)

I think the guidelines of less than 100 k are a bit outdated (even for YA, where Rowling shattered the old rules).

In any case, if you've already sold the first book and written through to the end of your story on the rest, then you really ought to sit down with your editor and decide how to parse it up. That's the kind fo thing editors are there for--don't be afraid to discuss it.

Book one is with the editor. Actually I'm trying to parse things out without becoming a nuisance- yet. Lol.

On the up side, longer novels and I get done sooner, which appeals to me on many levels. This may sound absurd after fighting to get here. But I want to finish the series and kick back and rest.

But in terms of edits, I've seen some parts of the story I want to burn, and others that need to be fleshed out more. So the actual length of the series is continuing to change. When asked how many books were in the series, I just estimated.

In Book one, a seer had a bit part in one chapter in the first revision, and in the edits he wound up as a MC through the whole novel, and he appears in two chapters in book two.

What you wrote is helpful. I'll feel better once I sort out a length that won't weary the common reader.

[Nateskate]

I'm a diehard fan of the doorstopper novel, as long as it's well-written. I like to get totally immersed in a fictional world. That goes for any genre, by the way.

My sense is that with fantasy you can get away with longer novels. What I've noticed is that sometimes the first book of a series is shorter than the subsequent volumes -- here I'm thinking of Robin Hobb's Assassin trilogy as an example. The first book is quite a bit shorter than the others. I would imagine that once you've got an audience the length of the book is less of an issue.

Of course I'm speaking as a reader.

I guess so. I like Tad Williams writing, but I get lost sticking with the stories for so long. I'd honestly prefer he divide his stories in half and just sell more books and I think his popularity would have grown too. But that's just me.

So I'm focusing on beloved series, where larger audiences stuck with the stories, and what numbers they'd written just to have some kind of template. That sounds very formulaic, but I know a successful author who does just that, and it works for him. But then again, I wish his books were a little longer.

[Nateskate]

Hey, look at Harry Potter. The first books are about 200 pages, the last around 600 and still fans say they're too short. Lord of the Rings are about the same size, but he did the splitting after he wrote it all as a single book, so it doesn't really count.

I dunno. It wouldn't throw me off as a reader, be it fantasy or not, as long as it's a good book. :) What I've heard about the length issue was that a book of 150,000 costs more to print than a 100,000 one and thus is more expensive and is more tricky for a new author to sell. But if you establish an audience, then why not. It's certainly been done.

Couldn't your agent/editor help you with that? It concerns the publishers too, after all.

Good luck with the series. Hope the books do well :)

At some point I need to talk to them again. I'm gleaning information here, because really, there are lots of pretty wise people on AW. I mentioned that I was at 130,000 words in book two. I'm going to write a letter when I send the MS to explain why I cut it down. Maybe I'll just ratchet it up one book at a time. Jumping from 85 thousand to 100,000.

130,000 is roughly a jump in 50% in length from book one. This is just a thought though.

[Melanie Nilles]

When I discussed the stage of book two with those involved, and when it would be ready, I was already near 130 K. But now I'm thinking of moving two chapters at the end of book two to the beginning of book three.

Would staying around 100K be the wisest choice if I want to reach the broadest audience? The other consideration, since at this point, a movie deal is also in the works (if all goes well a series), would it be best to partition the books considering movie lengths? The problem with the LOTR being translated into movies was the length of the stories, and having to pair down and eliminate whole chapters.


Do what's right for the story. If it means moving two chapters from one book to the next, do it. Put them where they'll make the most sense to the story break.

I did the same with my epic fantasy, as far as breaking it up.

congratulations on the movie deal, but I wouldn't worry about that when it comes to writing your books. Look at what PJ did with LOTR because of when things took place. The directors and screenwriters are going to do what they will to fit your work to the screen. Often that means changing scenes since you have to show stuff that can otherwise be put in narrative in a story.

Just write the best damn story you can. That's your job at this point.

btw, is there any secret on what publisher and the title of your works and when the release dates (even estimated) are? Just curious.

[job]

Do what's right for the story. ...
Just write the best damn story you can. That's your job at this point.

She's put it in a nutshell. Look at the next story arc and give yourself all the room you need to write it. Separate the story of that next book out from the rest of your epic and make it work emotionally, all on its own.

That said ...

In terms of pure length -- it might be better to increase length slowly. The 85K audience you've captured with Book One likes short books. You may want to ease them into 130K gradually.

But the story trumps everything.

[Nateskate]

Do what's right for the story. If it means moving two chapters from one book to the next, do it. Put them where they'll make the most sense to the story break.

I did the same with my epic fantasy, as far as breaking it up.

congratulations on the movie deal, but I wouldn't worry about that when it comes to writing your books. Look at what PJ did with LOTR because of when things took place. The directors and screenwriters are going to do what they will to fit your work to the screen. Often that means changing scenes since you have to show stuff that can otherwise be put in narrative in a story.

Just write the best damn story you can. That's your job at this point.

btw, is there any secret on what publisher and the title of your works and when the release dates (even estimated) are? Just curious.


There are some things I can't discuss yet. And I'm probably a bad boy for saying all I've said???

They asked what titles I'd like to use for the first series. I told them to use the names of one of the Seers, "The Chronicles of Cartemay"

They told me they hope to release the book this summer, but not the month.

On the movies. The movie producer read two of my stories before deciding. The first one was requested in June. The second in August.

They actually talked to me more about the movie production timetables before they decided they wanted my stories, in the August conversation.
Where the current film was in production, what was on the cue (the term I think they used for the movie on deck).

At that time they asked if I'd be interested in being involved in the screenplay. That was my first surreal moment, because at this point there was no commitment. They asked for my the next book, and told me if they liked it they would want to discuss a contract.

And so, there is this gap of time in between where every day I'm checking my mail and there's no answer. By this time I'd convinced myself they thought the book stunk and just didn't want to hurt my feelings.

Last time we talked I had no time to think. I'd gotten an email that said "Call today". I didn't even check my emails until after their office closed and was in a panic.

There was only one word I wanted to hear "yes", but I was bracing myself for rejection. Lol. They appologized for not hinting in the email that they wanted the story.

It was a crazy surreal conversation that I wished I'd recorded now. My wife is standing on the other side of a glass door watching and listening in, and giving me the thumbs up when she realized they wanted it. She called her mother who was in a grocery store and started shouting. (Now I have to save the family farm- teases)

I went straight from their "yes" to "I think we can fit Viggo Mortenson in the story... and I'd like Clive Owen to play..."

If they didn't take me serious about these suggestions, they at least graciously played along, and said, "We'll keep that in consideration when we do the story boards."

[arodriguez]

wow we need a bragging thread for you..you keep posting this in multiple forums,,lol

[Nateskate]

She's put it in a nutshell. Look at the next story arc and give yourself all the room you need to write it. Separate the story of that next book out from the rest of your epic and make it work emotionally, all on its own.

That said ...

In terms of pure length -- it might be better to increase length slowly. The 85K audience you've captured with Book One likes short books. You may want to ease them into 130K gradually.

But the story trumps everything.

It's funny you should say that about the gradual lengthening, because that's pretty much what I've decided to do.

I appreciate your advice about the story arc. In a sense, it's kind of like Lord of the Rings, in that you don't just have Frodo's story. And that's kind of where I have to hope the readers fall in love with the characters, which I think will happen, because that happened with the Beta Readers.

In Book Two the story branches out adding new characters and subplots, and still has to hold their interest. The movie producer loved the characters, which for me was great news, because I figured this is what will hold people to the story as the complexity increases.

[David I]

Book one is with the editor. Actually I'm trying to parse things out without becoming a nuisance- yet. Lol.

You haven't adapted to your change is status, dude. (It's hard, I know!)

You are officially no longer an annoyance. They are investing in you. Now you are an asset. You are intellectual property.

Believe me, this Big-Picture stuff is exactly the kind of thing your editor would probably like to hash through with you. It's a lot more fun than writing you little notes asking if using "furfuraceous" three times in a book isn't two too many. (It is.) Once they are on your side, editors are prtty cool people, and once they have bought your book, they are on your side.

[PeeDee]

Believe me, this Big-Picture stuff is exactly the kind of thing your editor would probably like to hash through with you. It's a lot more fun than writing you little notes asking if using "furfuraceous" three times in a book isn't two too many. (It is.) Once they are on your side, editors are prtty cool people, and once they have bought your book, they are on your side.


In fact, one use of the word should come with a stiff fine...

(THat's all I have. All the advice in this thread is spot on.)

[BarbaraKE]

'The Chronicles of Cartemay'?!!?!

I think this might be too similar to 'The Chronicles of Narnia'? Seems like it would confuse some people.

[PeeDee]

I don't see much connection between "Cartemay" and "Narnia," myself... :) Maybe just the "Chronicles of..." part, but that's hardly unique to Narnia.

Still, it is something to keep in mind.

[Nateskate]

You haven't adapted to your change is status, dude. (It's hard, I know!)

You are officially no longer an annoyance. They are investing in you. Now you are an asset. You are intellectual property.

Believe me, this Big-Picture stuff is exactly the kind of thing your editor would probably like to hash through with you. It's a lot more fun than writing you little notes asking if using "furfuraceous" three times in a book isn't two too many. (It is.) Once they are on your side, editors are prtty cool people, and once they have bought your book, they are on your side.

Lol, I though you had to reach bestseller status first. By the way, I'd asked a question just a day ago and didn't want to ask a second question a day later.

But you were right. They got back to me the next business day, and were already sending me sample websites, or prototypes, which I can't open where I'm at because I'm at a computer without a flash player. They want me to meet someone. I'm excited to see they're excited about this. Yikes. I'm not used to this.

[Nateskate]

wow we need a bragging thread for you..you keep posting this in multiple forums,,lol

Sorry that it got out of control. I was just going to make one announcement when I knew for certain. But when I was awaiting their answer, I actually came here to ask related questions that carried over into the acceptance. It kind of spun out of control after that.

My attempts at being cryptic backfired. I had real questions which at first were speculative, but now are very real. There was the script question, the illustrator question, the cast question- which was just my wish list.

Besides, one of the reasons I want to share here is because we AWers share much of the same struggles. I've been on the "nothing published" discouraged side for so long, and even was on the wanting to give up side. My hope is that someone else who doubts themselves will realize that this isn't a sign it will never happen. And someone who is struggling to make something work, will realize someone else overcame something similar. It's kind of like clawing my way out of writer's limbo.

[Nateskate]

'The Chronicles of Cartemay'?!!?!

I think this might be too similar to 'The Chronicles of Narnia'? Seems like it would confuse some people.

Hi Barbara. Each book will have a unique name, which should help. Chronicles, which is a generic term, will signifiy a collection, and should be in lower case. The character Cartemay doesn't appear until either the end of book two, or the beginning of book three, depending on whether we move that chapter. (I sent the publisher a question asking their opinion)

However, once Cartemay does appear, he will distinguish himself- I hope. Beside's he doesn't look very much like Narnia. (teases/winking icon)