Can I Get an Amen?

[Ali B]

Okay, so I went off in my blog (http://paintingdrawing.suite101.com/blog.cfm/how_to_draw_female_breasts), but I'm really tired of stereotypes in comics, graphic novels, and such about how a woman is supposed to look. What I wouldn't give for some normal Janes that aren't potrayed as the "ugly chick."
What do you guys and gals think? Have you found some comics out there that break the mold?

[InfinityGoddess]

Having female breasts myself (since I'm a woman :P), I can assure you they look anything BUT "overturned teacups". More like a pair of extra fleshy things.

And I certainly don't draw my females with that kind of shape, either. Nor do I stick to one size. I have average, large, and small. So I guess in some ways, my comics "break the mold" in that regard.

[Ali B]

Having female breasts myself (since I'm a woman :P), I can assure you they look anything BUT "overturned teacups". More like a pair of extra fleshy things.

*Peeks inside her own shirt* Nope. Mine never have, either. Maybe a little like teabags...

[InfinityGoddess]

*Peeks inside her own shirt* Nope. Mine never have, either. Maybe a little like teabags...

:ROFL:Yeah, only bigger, in my case most definitely.

Seriously, anyone who compares breasts to teacups needs to be sat back into life drawing classes with live female models of all shapes and sizes.

[Ali B]

:ROFL:Yeah, only bigger, in my case most definitely.

Seriously, anyone who compares breasts to teacups needs to be sat back into life drawing classes with live female models of all shapes and sizes.

See, that's what I thought! It was one of those throw-the-book-accross-the-room moments.

[InfinityGoddess]

It's just as galling as finding all these women drawn with oversized breasts. Apparently no one told those guys that breasts that big causes all kinds of physical stresses on women in real life.

[Ali B]

Yah, that and they are really impractical. I mean, the women in comics should all have black eyes from running with them.

[InfinityGoddess]

I have a female character with large breasts who desires a reduction because they hurt her back. Which is a reality for any woman in that position.

[Ali B]

Right on, sister!
Now if everyone could be like you the world would be a better place. :)

[PeeDee]

I can't think of very many of my comics where women look like that.

Go read Alan Moore's run on Swamp Thing. The love story, particularly.

Go read Neil Gaiman's Sandman.

Go read anything by Scott McCloud.

Go look at the art of Michael Zulli, Charles Vess, et. al.

It's like saying that all women in the entire music industry are over-sexed, under-dressed, over-produced "made" artists like Britney Spears, or something. That's inaccurate, because it forgets about Thea Gilmore and Tori Amos and K.T. Tunstall and so on.

[wordmonkey]

JEEZ! Ruin those delightful scoops of gravity-defying flesh, why don't ya!?

And Pete, you panderer! Stand-up for your gender, man!

Seriously though, there are lots of female characters that don't have the wrestling watermelons under a costume mostly made of string.

But let's remember that the audience to some degree, goes for this look. It's (really, unlike Pete) pandering to the fanboys who can't get a date and would wet their pants if a real girl talked to them. And regardless of our feelings here, this argument is like complaining that all the women in playboy are naked, because real women wear clothes.

As Pete says, check out other comics. There are titles within the big two that aren't like that, and different artists do different things and have different styles. And there are LOTS of indies that are created, written and drawn by women (and men) who keep things anatomically correct.

I mentioned it the other day in another thread, "Blackets" is pretty much jubbly-free, even allowing for the sexual content.

I'll go get my flameproof jacket now. :D

[PeeDee]

I think that the comic market has changed enough, of late, that short of some of the obscure indie comics, and quite a lot of manga, most of the people reading the Big Two comics and other mainstream comics (dare I use that word?) are fairly normal people. I go into my local comic shop, one of those stereotypical small and creepy places, and I have nice conversations with friendly people. Many of them women. All normal.

On the Marvel end of things, look at John Cassidy's work on Astonishing X-Men. Wonderful female form.

Maybe it's ot standing up for my gender (shudder, my gender scares me sometimes, nearly as much as the female gender. Me and Humanity, we're not close. :) ) but I prefer a realistically drawn and written woman to Wonder Woman, or Ms. Marvel. Neil Gaiman referred to them as looking like "men with breasts," and that's true. It's not attractive.

Whereas Kitty Pryde is hot and easy to have a crush on.

[wordmonkey]

Having been to Comic Con this past summer, I can attest to the fact that there are a LOT of "normals" who read comics.

I can also attest to the fact that there are a LOT of fanboys who are the sad cliché comicbook reader.

I have to say, I love 'em all. Not least of which because I think I'm in the former group, but suspect I may be in the latter.

And if there wasn't a market for the comics which have women who look like a dead-heat in a Zepplin race, the comics wouldn't be there. Somebody is buying 'em.

I think it is also easier to darw the two extremes. Stunner with all the curves and more, or ugly troll-like being. But for the record, just picking tow at random, I don't think Renee Montoya or Sue Richards really follow the offensive line.

And lest we forget, this IS fantasy.

[InfinityGoddess]

I can't think of very many of my comics where women look like that.



I realize that. My Witchblade comics, as drawn by Michael Turner and Randy Green don't have that problem either, but when you get into some of the substitute artists, you have to wonder where those guys went to art school. I can't think of the name of the artist off the bat, but he drew Sara Pezzini like she was a mixture of an hour glass figure with balloons out the front. This was during the earlier days of the comic, before Green's run. Just...ick.

[PeeDee]

I realize that. My Witchblade comics, as drawn by Michael Turner and Randy Green don't have that problem either, but when you get into some of the substitute artists, you have to wonder where those guys went to art school. I can't think of the name of the artist off the bat, but he drew Sara Pezzini like she was a mixture of an hour glass figure with balloons out the front. This was during the earlier days of the comic, before Green's run. Just...ick.

Exactly. Earl Witchblade -- and most comics in the 90's -- were men with boobs running around. Stupidest shit.

But it was never always like that, and it still isn't.

Super-hero comics work by their own unique set of rules, just like television soap operas. Taken by their own rules, they are enjoyable and respectable and a delight. Viewing them from the outside makes them awkward and nearly unreadable.

More and more, the creepy NOT normal geeks which Wordmonkey mentions -- and which I do still see -- have girlfriends who are also creepy and NOT normal. A lot of the boundaries are breaking down, for whatever reason.

EDIT: I should say "HAVE BROKEN" down, since this is not a recent occurrence by any standard.

[InfinityGoddess]

Exactly. Earl Witchblade -- and most comics in the 90's -- were men with boobs running around. Stupidest shit.

But it was never always like that, and it still isn't.


I'm glad things are changing for the better, however when you still have anatomy book authors comparing female breasts to teacups, there's still a ways to go, in my opinion. I mean, come on here. That comparison might be taken a little bit more seriously if there was an underwire push-up bra in the equation. But when you're talking about nude breasts, then no.

[PeeDee]

Well, since I read more comics than anatomy books, I wouldn't know.

Given the relative size of my tea mugs, however, it's not an unpleasant idea. :D

(sorry, sorry, I couldn't resist)

[wordmonkey]

More and more, the creepy NOT normal geeks which Wordmonkey mentions -- and which I do still see -- have girlfriends who are also creepy and NOT normal.

Y' know, clearly I had blanked this out, but yeah, the female quotient at San Diego was also strange. Majority, us normals. But man, when they went freaky, they went FREEEEEEEEEAKY!

Being a red-blooded male, that Princess Leia costume in Jabba's palace in Star Wars VI was a delight to behold. Not after Comic Con. Must have been at least 10 wearers of said costume, and about 9 of them should NEVER have done that. EVER!

UGGH! And don't get me started on spandex. <SHUDDER>

[InfinityGoddess]

UGGH! And don't get me started on spandex. <SHUDDER>

Heheheh. The last time I went to a con (in New York City), there was a Man-Faye.

[Ali B]

PeeDee and WordMonkey: As you see from my original post I was refering to an anatomy book TEACHING artist to draw women this way. That's what I have an issue with. I realize not all comics have women who look like this, that's why I asked for examples. Which you did. I thank you for that. :)

[JoNightshade]

Has anyone mentioned Powers? I think that's a good example, although there's a lot of other crude stuff going with the small, small-breasted female MC. :)

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that I'm female, and I don't have a problem with women being drawn as bombshells with perky breasts. This is because I also like comics that have big sexy men with lots of muscles. :)

[PeeDee]

PeeDee and WordMonkey: As you see from my original post I was refering to an anatomy book TEACHING artist to draw women this way. That's what I have an issue with. I realize not all comics have women who look like this, that's why I asked for examples. Which you did. I thank you for that. :)

I knew you were talking about an anatomy book teaching artists to draw. :) But since I am not an artist and therefore have no teaching books to discuss, I instead talked about the work I was familiar with. It's all I've got. :)

[wordmonkey]

I knew you were talking about an anatomy book teaching artists to draw. :) But since I am not an artist and therefore have no teaching books to discuss, I instead talked about the work I was familiar with. It's all I've got. :)

And in MY defense, I was just trying to start a fight. :D

[AceTachyon]

More examples:

Strangers in Paradise
Y: The Last Man
Channon and Yelena from Transmetropolitan.
Tara Chace from Queen and Country.

[InfinityGoddess]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that I'm female, and I don't have a problem with women being drawn as bombshells with perky breasts.

"Perky" breasts are one thing. "Unrealistically and impossibly big" are quite a different matter. I think some hentai manga are guilty of this...

[wordmonkey]

But without context, how are we to judge?

Was the book a beginners book? Sometimes, it helps to treat a sensative subject, like drawing breasts, with a little levity. And I would say the teacup reference is better than a couple of party balloons filled with jello. Technically the latter maybe closer, but still.

And would it have been as offensive had they been discussing the male parts? A vienna sausage hanging over a couple of olives, I suspect, wouldn't have gotten the same indignant response.

[InfinityGoddess]

Was the book a beginners book? Sometimes, it helps to treat a sensative subject, like drawing breasts, with a little levity. And I would say the teacup reference is better than a couple of party balloons filled with jello. Technically the latter maybe closer, but still.


I have an artist anatomy book that makes no such references to either. It doesn't have to; it lets the drawings speak for themselves. So silly comparisons to that effect really aren't necessary, and even if it was a "beginners' book" it's unprofessional when you're trying to teach artists how to draw.