Permission to use song lyrics in book?

[underthecity]

Does anyone know how to obtain permission/rights to use song lyrics in a book? I would like to use four lines from a song from 1941, but have no idea how to call or write to.

Any ideas?

underthecity

[arkady]

Does anyone know how to obtain permission/rights to use song lyrics in a book? I would like to use four lines from a song from 1941, but have no idea how to call or write to.

Any ideas?

underthecity

That's why most of us write our own lyrics when the need arises.

I'm not trying to be a wise guy -- I've been through this myself. It can be very difficult to find out the current owner of the rights to a non-current song, and if you do manage to find out, it's even more difficult to get the rights to quote it in your book.

That's not to say that it can't be done, but there are enough roadblocks to make it not worth the trouble in most cases.

[underthecity]

Thanks for the advice. I actually wanted to use it on the copyright page of my book to kind of "set the tone" for the book. You know, kind of like an opening quote for the book.

Here are the lyrics, in case anyone's interested:

If the pleasure you're about
And you feel like steppin' out
All you got to shout is
Let me off uptown.

(from Let Me off Uptown by Anita O'Day with the Gene Krupa Orchestra, 1941)

That's the plan, anyway.

underthecity

[Medievalist]

songs were among public domain. I do all the time. At the end, when it's accepted for publication, then it will be credited. Just keep a list of what you did use for that time.

Don't do this.

Songs are not public domain unless they're really and truly public domain because of the date they were published. And even then there are all sorts of odd loop holes. This is a rights issue, and a particularly ugly one because of the nature of the music industry. I've had to do the research and write the request to license two lines from one song, and four from another, and it's a total pain in the neck, and it was exceedingly expensive given the kind of book and money to be made from said book.

Moreover, the music industry is exceedingly litigious. If you have to use the song, get permission, and you might think about consulting an expert, by which I mean an attorney who is deeply familiar with music licensing. Sometimes you need to pay fees and get permission from more than one person/entity. Neither agents nor editors are the best guides for this rough water.

[Uncarved]

Plus to add to what Medievalist said, they are notoriously more expensive in their Permission fees as well. Better to get a song that is well behind the 1921 date or shell out some serious cash for those little lines.

I'd either do without it, or if its an integral part of the story, pay the fee. DON'T try to circumnavigate this law. Songs are not in the public domain unless they fit the requirement that ALL works have to fit (novels, brochures, whatever).

[Susan Gable]

Amen to what everyone else has said - Make sure the song you want to use truly falls into public domain (Daughter of Falkner, your editor is very misinformed! :( ) or get the permission - which can be both expensive and difficult to do.

There are ways to get around this, depending on your intent in your work. If the song is playing in the background of a scene, you can mention the title. I've done other things like:

He hummed along with the radio. "Damn straight, I'll be home for Christmas." Then your reader knows what song is playing. (Of course, the song has an impact on the story. Otherwise, why bother?)

Keep your legal ducks in a row. This is one case where "Sorry, I didn't know" isn't going to cut it when a suit is filed against you. :scared:

Susan G.

[Jamesaritchie]

Does anyone know how to obtain permission/rights to use song lyrics in a book? I would like to use four lines from a song from 1941, but have no idea how to call or write to.

Any ideas?

underthecity

Songs are NOT part of the pubic domain. Songs have the same copyright protection as any other writing, and if you use song lyrics withuot permission you can be sued right down to your underwear.

When you see song lyrics in a novel it's because the writer obtained permission to use those lyrics, and most likely had to pay for them. The only way to do so is to find the copyright owner, which will often be on the sheet music, and write to them. Gaining written permission, which you will need, can be very expensive.

No sane or legitimate publisher will pubish anything containing copyrighted song lyrics unless you have the written permission.

If you get caught using song lyrics without permission, you will end up in court, and you will be foudn liable for damages. This can be considerable.

[underthecity]

Thanks everyone for the replies. I understood that song lyrics were subject to copyright and I would need permission to use them, and possibly pay a fee. My only issue is how to go about doing that part.

So, rest assured I will not use the lyrics without permission. :cool:

underthecity

[Medievalist]

First you'll have to do research; find out who wrote the lyrics, and who owns them. If you have a CD you can start by using the lyric information there; you may find not only the author, but the name of the author's rights holder. Often times the rights are owned by one of a few Very Large Corporations; you then look up the contact information on the web, and you write them. You can do an initial query by email, but after that initial query it's better to stick to U.S. post.

Don't do a query until you have a publisher; you'll need to be able to tell the license agent/rights holder all the publication information, send them an excerpt showing where and how the lyrics are used, and they'll want to know how many copies will be printed; that and the kind of publication affect price. You really really need an expert at this point; your publisher may have a boiler plate query you can use, and that's a start. You will need to be very specific; each kind of rights, and the geography (world? US?) and duration need to be specified, and it's not a lot of fun.

[Ketzel]

http://www.justaboutwrite.com/A_Archive_IntellectProp3.html

Here's some basic information on how to get use permission for song lyrics. If the lyrics of your song are printed in the CD insert, you can look there to see if the publisher is ASCAP or BMI or SESAC.

[underthecity]

Thank you both, Medievalist and Ketzel for that helpful information. Using the link provided by Ketzel, I was able find the song on Ascap's database. I then sent them a query using Medievalist's info as a guide.

I don't care that it's extra trouble to get permission. The title of the book is mentioned in the lyrics. If it doesn't cost too much to use them, they would make the book extra cool.:Trophy:

And I do have a publisher. This is my third book for them, and it's due in July. I'm supposed to be writing that, not this!

underthecity

[katdad]

You can go ahead and put lyrics in your book, and you don't need to do anything except make a note of this for later reference.

When your book gets published, the publisher's legal staff will vet the musical excerpt. They will decide how, and whether to get permission for the lyrics' use, or if the use constitutes "free use". If there's a problem, they will simply ask you to edit the lyrics out and find a suitable alternative way to describe your topic.

So you don't need to worry about it.

[James D. Macdonald]

One way to improve almost any manuscript is to go through and remove any poetry you find, regardless of its source.

Leaving the copyright/permissions question entirely aside, most poetry is bad. Even if no lyrics are used, most references to popular music only serve to date the story more quickly.

Assuming that your readers are a) familiar with a particular song, and b) will have the same emotional reaction to that song that you do, is probably a bad assumption.

[Jamesaritchie]

You can go ahead and put lyrics in your book, and you don't need to do anything except make a note of this for later reference.

When your book gets published, the publisher's legal staff will vet the musical excerpt. They will decide how, and whether to get permission for the lyrics' use, or if the use constitutes "free use". If there's a problem, they will simply ask you to edit the lyrics out and find a suitable alternative way to describe your topic.

So you don't need to worry about it.

It's more likely the publisher will decide not to get permission, not to pay big bucks, and you'll have wasted an awful lot of time and energy writing a novel no one wants. Publishers generally want you to have permission going in, especially if you're a new writer. And it isn't always possible to get permission, even if you (or the publisher) are willing to pay. Quite often, the copyright holder will deny permission to use the lyrics, and then all the effort writing is really wasted.

And as often as not, publishers would simply rather you don't use anything in a novel that needs permission. Even if they receive permission, they may have to get it all over again for any new edition of the book.

In fact, if you're a new writer, odds are good that you'll either be asked to cut anything that needs permission, or the manuscript will be rejected. The publisher is already risking enough money to publish a novel by a new writer, and anything that is likely to cost them more money, time, and effort is one huge strike against the writer.

Far and away the best thing to do is to forget all about putting copyrighted song lyrics into your manuscript.

[underthecity]

I'd like to clarify a few points,

I posted this question in the "Writing Novels" forum because I knew I'd get a larger response than if I put it in the Nonfiction forum, which doesn't get near the traffic that this one does.

This book is a nonfiction book, specifically about entertainment history in Cincinnati 1900-1960. The song lyrics in question encapsulate the overall theme of the book. I wouldn't bother with them if they did not.

Researching how to obtain permission to use them has taken extremely little time, perhaps maybe fifteen minutes total, thanks to the post that pointed me to ASCAP. Doing a search on their database revealed the composer of the song as well as who holds the rights to the song, which is Music Sales Corp of New York. The database also provided the phone number. A quick visit to their website told me the right person to call. I've called her this morning and left her a message. When I speak to her she'll tell me exactly what I need to do, and perhaps give me a quote for rights. If the cost is prohibitive, I won't do it. If it's not, then I probably will.

I'm not a new, unpublished writer. I'm twice published with the same publisher and the book I am working on now my third; I signed the contract in January. I have already spoken to my editor at the publisher, and she likes the idea of using the lyrics.

The overall process has been simple. Turned out ASCAP had the info on its database and even provided a phone number.

I do thank you all for your input and advice. :Hug2:At this point, all I can do is offer the board a final follow-up about what the cost will be.

I think the responses given in this thread will be very beneficial for anyone else wanting to do the same thing.

underthecity

[katdad]

Publishers generally want you to have permission going in, especially if you're a new writer. In fact, if you're a new writer, odds are good that you'll either be asked to cut anything that needs permission --- etc Far and away the best thing to do is to forget all about putting copyrighted song lyrics into your manuscript.

Here's my own specific example, from my novel "Full Circle", Chapter 1. My protagonist is driving along a parkway:

=============

Steely Dan was on the classic rock station, playing Do It Again. I turned up the volume and helped Donald Fagen sing a few bars.

Then you love a little wild one
And she brings you only sorrow...
Go back, Jack, do it again,
Wheel turnin’ round and round...

==============

The lyrics set the mood of my novel. I could have paraphrased them but I chose to quote 2 lines from the song.

My agent has specifically told me that the quatrain I quoted in my book is okay, and that it constitutes "fair use". He said that such brief quotes are acceptable.

In the past, I've done similar things in both fiction and non-fiction (very brief attributions) and it's gone straight through into print.

That being said, an alternative is to use indirect quotes or paraphrase.

I don't know what your agent or publisher has told you. Perhaps your situation is different from mine. I have never heard of a publisher rejecting a manuscript out of hand for this.

[maestrowork]

Katbad, that's not fair use. You need permission, and sometimes you need to pay for that (depending on the agreement you get from the songwriter). It's not fair use, especially if you're using it in a piece of work that is going to be sold commercially. You may have gotten away with it, and your publishers probably thought you did get permission. But if someone decides to sue you, it can get messy.

[Medievalist]

Here's my own specific example, from my novel "Full Circle", Chapter 1. My protagonist is driving along a parkway:

=============

Steely Dan was on the classic rock station, playing Do It Again. I turned up the volume and helped Donald Fagen sing a few bars.

Then you love a little wild one
And she brings you only sorrow...
Go back, Jack, do it again,
Wheel turnin’ round and round...

==============

The lyrics set the mood of my novel. I could have paraphrased them but I chose to quote 2 lines from the song.

My agent has specifically told me that the quatrain I quoted in my book is okay, and that it constitutes "fair use". He said that such brief quotes are acceptable.

With all due respect, an agent is not the person to consult. The publisher, who presumably has access to legal expertise, is. Remember too that you have to go to court in order to determine fair use. I'd go ahead and quote from a work, but make sure to explicitly discuss the issue with your publisher.

[katdad]

With all due respect, an agent is not the person to consult. The publisher, who presumably has access to legal expertise, is. Remember too that you have to go to court in order to determine fair use. I'd go ahead and quote from a work, but make sure to explicitly discuss the issue with your publisher.

Agreed. The publisher is the one to make the decision. All I am trying to say is that the writer should not worry, since those issues will be sorted out later. If the publisher thinks that the lyrics should be omitted or paraphrased, the editor will let you know.

As for "fair use"? No, you don't have to go to court to obtain fair use of song lyrics. That use is implicit in freedom of speech. However the original copyright owner may take exception and sue the publisher.

[ChunkyC]

Maestro's right about fair use. Whether you or your publisher does it, you must get permission unless the work quoting the lyrics is a review or scholarly work, etc.

Katdad's probably right about the publisher taking care of these issues for a writer, but it sure wouldn't hurt to have done some of the legwork ahead of time, it really doesn't take much effort at all. I wrote a short story once with lyrics from Spirit in the Sky by Norman Greenbaum in it. It took me two e-mails to get permission in principle from the publisher who held the rights to the song. I figured it wouldn't hurt to be able to tell an interested publisher that I already had that in hand.

Never sold the story tho'. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/EmoteShrug.gif

[Jamesaritchie]

Here's my own specific example, from my novel "Full Circle", Chapter 1. My protagonist is driving along a parkway:

=============

Steely Dan was on the classic rock station, playing Do It Again. I turned up the volume and helped Donald Fagen sing a few bars.

Then you love a little wild one
And she brings you only sorrow...
Go back, Jack, do it again,
Wheel turnin’ round and round...

==============

The lyrics set the mood of my novel. I could have paraphrased them but I chose to quote 2 lines from the song.

My agent has specifically told me that the quatrain I quoted in my book is okay, and that it constitutes "fair use". He said that such brief quotes are acceptable.

In the past, I've done similar things in both fiction and non-fiction (very brief attributions) and it's gone straight through into print.

That being said, an alternative is to use indirect quotes or paraphrase.

I don't know what your agent or publisher has told you. Perhaps your situation is different from mine. I have never heard of a publisher rejecting a manuscript out of hand for this.

Your agent is simply wrong on this issue. That isn't fair use, and I've seen writers successfully sued for using considerably less. FAir use with songs and poems is considerably different than fair use when quoting fiction or nonfiction. A song or a poem is so short that using any of it can get you in trouble.

And "Fair use" itself is greatly misunderstand. In truth, there is no provision in fair use law to use any copyrighted material in your fiction. None at all. FAir use law is very specific in where and how you can use copyrighted material, and using in your own fiction isn't one of the allowable categories. This is triply true for song lyrics and poetry.

Fair use law can be murky, especially when dealing with how much you can quote, but the courts have held fair use is allowable in the following categories:

“quotation of excerpts in a review or criticism for purposes of illustration or comment; quotation of short passages in a scholarly or technical work, for illustration or clarification of the author’s observations; use in a parody of some of the content of the work parodied; summary of an address or article, with brief quotations, in a news report; reproduction by a library of a portion of a work to replace part of a damaged copy; reproduction by a teacher or student of a small part of a work to illustrate a lesson; reproduction of a work in legislative or judicial proceedings or reports; incidental and fortuitous reproduction, in a newsreel or broadcast, of a work located in the scene of an event being reported.”

No mention whatsoever of allowing any use in fiction.

If you use any amount of copyrighted material in your own fiction, you'd better have permission. If you use a copyrighted song lyric or any part of a poem, you will need permission because fair use doesn't cover it. Courts have upheld numerous claims against using portions of song lyrics and poems.

If you want to use any portion of a song or a peom in your own fiction, you will need to get written permission, which can cost many thousands of dollars, and generally isn;t worth the effort for a new writer.

[Medievalist]

As for "fair use"? No, you don't have to go to court to obtain fair use of song lyrics. That use is implicit in freedom of speech. However the original copyright owner may take exception and sue the publisher.

Yeah, you do have to go to court to determine if a specific use falls within the so-called "fair use" clauses. Fair use is not a right, and has nothing to do at all with freedom of speech. It's a sort of potential safe harbor intended for very specific uses, like educational purposes, or critical works. Moreover, the author is often the defendent, not the publisher.

Most publishers require authors to sign a statement indicating that the author has copyright or has obtained permission. An infringement can cost thousands, even tens of thousands, plus legal fees.

Increasingly publishers require authors to obtain the rights, and pay for them; even textbook publishers are doing this. Even though I've frequently obtained permissions for images,text, including literature, and video, I generally avoid lyrics and music because they are both such an expensive quagmire. The two instances where I did agree to do the research were both for academic, scholarly publications, North America and Europe only, one for two lines of a song and one for four, for specific print runs. In both cases the rights were thousands of dollars. The author essentially used the advance to purchase all the rights he needed. As a scholar, that's a viable option; he has a day job. That might not be true in all cases.

So. Sure, include the lyrics, but don't set your heart on them. Alert your editor to the use of the lyrics, and work with the publisher to decide what to do. Attempt to determine the intial contact for a query. Don't publish without obtaining consent from all the rights holders in writing (for instance, the lyric author, the Big Corporate Entity, the lyric publisher).

Be prepared to consult a professional; some publishers will refer you to an in house expert/attorney, some will provide you with sample queries and permission forms, a rare few will do the work for you, or at least some of it.

[James D. Macdonald]

"Fair use" isn't a right, it's a defense against a charge of copyright infringement.

Maybe a use is fair, maybe it isn't, but it ain't nothing 'til a judge bangs his gavel down.

The author, who signed an indemnity clause in his contract, is probably going to have to fight that one out in court, and may bear the whole cost of the defense (depending on that indemnity clause).

[Daughter of Faulkner]

on the signing of a contract with a literary agency, the completion of "Full Circle," and just on being a writer.
Since you have an agent and all good things going for you, I'd say that along with your proven track record speaks volumes.

Keep up the good work.

[maestrowork]

Yup. Look closely at your contract with the publisher. There's usually a clause there, to the effect of something like this:

... contains no matter that, when published, will be libelous or otherwise unlawful, or which will infringe upon any proprietary interest at common law or statutory copyright... that the Author and his/her legal successors and/or representatives will hold harmless and keep indemnified the Publisher from all manner of claims, proceeding and expenses wich may be taken or incurred on the ground that said work is subject to any such lien, claim, claim of plagiarism....

Thus, it's the author's responsibility to make sure your work is free from such lien and claim...

[Chacounne]

Hi All,

This probably belongs on the non-fiction forum, but since we are discussing publishing rights, I thought I would ask.(Jenna, I will gladly move this if you like.) I am writing, or more acurately compiling, a book on medieval children that will be in the form of a sourcebook, with the portion of text or photograph of the painting or object on the top of the page, and my comments in a box under it or on a facing page. I assume that I will have to get permission for each of the texts I use, unless they are transcribed by me from the original period manuscript or book. What should I do about the texts that were published by publishers who have gone out of business, or are otherwise unfindable? I already know I need permission for the photographs of the paintings and objects, so that will be taken care of.

Thanks for any advice,
Chacounne

[Medievalist]

I assume that I will have to get permission for each of the texts I use, unless they are transcribed by me from the original period manuscript or book. What should I do about the texts that were published by publishers who have gone out of business, or are otherwise unfindable? I already know I need permission for the photographs of the paintings and objects, so that will be taken care of.

First, you need to make a good faith effort to find the rights holder, which means writing/faxing lots of places, and keeping copies of everything so you can prove due diligence.

Secondly, usually when a publisher goes out of business, someone gets the rights. Reference librarians are divine entities, and you should honor them with offerings, sacrifices and libations, because they will help you. Sometimes you'll notice a credit in a book that indicates that the text/image are after / from but could not be located; use this with extreme caution, and be ready to truly exhaust all avenues.

Thirdly, it's more than likely you can find an alternative source for medieval texts. Indeed, your publisher will likely be able to offer your guidance about which texts you must obtain permissions for.

Fourthly, images can be expensive. Museums will often want you to deal with a stock house/agent like Art Resource or Corbis, but the museum is often more reasonable in terms of pricing. This is particularly true of pre-1832 art.

Fifth, check out the Golf Book, the book of hours by Simon Bening at the British Museum.

[katdad]

I happened to be speaking with my agent yesterday, and so I asked him specifically about this topic. Here's what he told me ---

If you're a writer, you yourself don't need to concern yourself too much about using a quatrain of lyrics, but be sure to have a fall-back in case the use of the lyrics poses a problem.

Your publisher is the one who will be concerned with this (as I had stated). When your book is purchased and you begin the editing phase, let the publisher know the situation: That you've used lyrics to set up a theme or whatever.

The publisher's legal folks may ask you right away to change the quote into an indirect reference, which is why you need to envision a fall-back and not make the quote absolutely integral to the book.

But most publishers will understand and go with the flow. If so, the publisher will then make an attempt to gain release of the lyrics. For a small quoted excerpt (4-6 lines) this is usually perfunctory, and most songwriters (or whomever holds the copyright) are glad to do this if you put an attribution in the front, but some songwriters are very picky and may say "no". In that case you'll need your Plan B.

So, the summary: Go ahead and include the lyrics, but have a fall-back alternative in case there's a problem. But don't worry yourself about the legalities at this stage -- that's part of your publisher's vetting procedure.

[Jaws]

:Lecture: As Uncle Jim noted, fair use is a defense, not a right. Under § 107 of the Copyright Act, one must consider four independent factors in deciding whether a particular usage is "fair" or not:
the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
the nature of the copyrighted work;
the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.
No one factor is supposed to predominate, although courts have a disappointing tendency to conflate 1 and 4 (or at least evaluate 1 and 4 from exactly the same evidence).
In any event, the following guidelines are pretty standard throughout the industry. That is, if you exceed them, you'll need to get permission; if you don't, you may still not be safe.
Any use of more than 300 words of prose, or 10% of the complete work (whichever is smaller), requires permission.
Any use of more than 10% of an image requires permission, and color images always require permission. This holds even when the image may not be copyrightable subject matter (such as, for example, a photograph of a public-domain painting that does nothing more than make the best technically possible copy of the painting).
Poetry and verse will generally allow not more than a couplet (not a quatrain) without at least explicit acknowledgement. Further, this couple should not include either a proper name or the title of the piece.
All of that said, it's not as hard as one might think to get permissions. I highly recommend Richard Stim's Getting Permission (http://tinyurl.com/4thhg) for more guidance, including sample documents and permission forms and letters.

[Fictionalizer]

Thanks everyone for the replies. I understood that song lyrics were subject to copyright and I would need permission to use them, and possibly pay a fee. My only issue is how to go about doing that part.
underthecity

:idea: There is an excellent web site which simplifies copyright, patent and trademarks called nolo.com . I purchased a book from them called "Getting Permission." In plain English, it details the steps necessary to use copyrighted material.

Their web site has a wealth of information on all types of legal issues. I purchased a book bundle called The Writer's Bundle. It includes Getting Permission, The Public Domain and The Copyright Handbook. I have two businesses, writing and graphic design, and these books are great for both. The Copyright Handbook is basically for writers though.

[Chacounne]

Thanks Jaws and Lorraine,

That's a great lead.

Happy Writing,

Chacounne

[Fictionalizer]

Use the search engine at Nolo (http://www.nolo.com) to find the legal definition of "Fair Use." Toggle the button under the search engine and select the Search Glossary option.

"Fair Use" means using copyrighted works for educational purposes.

I am a graphic artist, designer and signmaker as well as a writer. Last year I had a client who insisted anything online is "Fair Use." I refused to use the artwork he found through a search engine. [The search engine had thousands of jpegs from the www]. He had planned to use the artwork for every part of his business; signs, business cards, letterheads and a web site. I suggested he get permission AND I informed the artist about my client. In the end, my client had to purchase the artwork and rights from both the artist and the business which owned it. The client and I would have been sued if I used that artwork for signs and business cards.

With copyright, ignorance is no longer bliss. You can and will get sued for using copyrighted materials without permission. And when you do get permission follow the "rights for use" to the letter.

[Fictionalizer]

All of that said, it's not as hard as one might think to get permissions. I highly recommend Richard Stim's Getting Permission (http://tinyurl.com/4thhg) for more guidance, including sample documents and permission forms and letters.
Ditto!

I just saw your post. I wrote the same recommendation. I got Nolo's, The Writer's Bundle, good information for a reasonable price.

[Vipersniper]

I write novels right now based on a song. And I research the lines to put what I write in the novel. I do my own poetry. Now I sent off to one recording artist for his permission to use a song. That is why I have not applied for the copyright. If he does not give it I will not post even a single line from it. Songs are protected by copyright and they last for seventy years. If you print say in a church songbook a song for the choir to sing you are subject to having the US marhals come in an confinscate all the music. I saw this happen twice. The object it that you ask for written permission and go down to the section on the copyright that asks for deriviative work and list even if is only one line. Now egad this is one thing that PublishAmerica did point out. Then I wrote my own poem to introduce the chapter and everyone said that they liked mine better than some lines from the poem. So maestro and Jim are correct on this.

[three seven]

Tell you what, tracking down the copyright owner can be a real task, huh? Especially when the writer's dead, the publisher doesn't exist any more and the parent company's a hulking great multinational. I might actually have to go knocking on doors... :(

[three seven]

Especially when your emails come back undelivered... :Headbang:



EDIT: See, now I said that out loud I finally get a reply!

[wurdwise]

:Lecture: As Uncle Jim noted, fair use is a defense, not a right. Under § 107 of the Copyright Act, one must consider four independent factors in deciding whether a particular usage is "fair" or not:

the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
the nature of the copyrighted work;
the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.
No one factor is supposed to predominate, although courts have a disappointing tendency to conflate 1 and 4 (or at least evaluate 1 and 4 from exactly the same evidence).
In any event, the following guidelines are pretty standard throughout the industry. That is, if you exceed them, you'll need to get permission; if you don't, you may still not be safe.

Any use of more than 300 words of prose, or 10% of the complete work (whichever is smaller), requires permission.
Any use of more than 10% of an image requires permission, and color images always require permission. This holds even when the image may not be copyrightable subject matter (such as, for example, a photograph of a public-domain painting that does nothing more than make the best technically possible copy of the painting).
Poetry and verse will generally allow not more than a couplet (not a quatrain) without at least explicit acknowledgement. Further, this couple should not include either a proper name or the title of the piece.
All of that said, it's not as hard as one might think to get permissions. I highly recommend Richard Stim's Getting Permission (http://tinyurl.com/4thhg) for more guidance, including sample documents and permission forms and letters.


Wow, this thread is like a bucket of cold water thrown in my face, but I'm thinking I'm going to use the above info and be done with worrying about it. My middle reader has a few lines of song lyrics from Evanescense, and it says so before they play, a line by Fantasio Barrino from Summertime, also noted, I say Dumpster diving, which is a trademark, I say one of my characters favorite oldies is When the Doves Cry by Prince, I have two pages of info I say on PBS by Wayne Dyer in his "The Power of Intention" program, which I didn't quote verbatim and didn't mention his name, though I did say it was on Channel 13, let's see, what else, I talked about Sylvester Stallone and how all the Rambo movies suck, I have her best friend playing Doom on his computer. Boy oh boy, if it ain't one thing, it's another.

[three seven]

Well you can't copyright a title and you can't be sued for mentioning a trademark unless you libel/slander it so I wouldn't worry too much about that...

[wurdwise]

I would like to hear thoughts about using the rules of thumb Jaws posted. Will I be safe?

[wurdwise]

And jaws, where in those guidelines are song lyrics covered?

[PattiTheWicked]

Wow, this thread is like a bucket of cold water thrown in my face, but I'm thinking I'm going to use the above info and be done with worrying about it. My middle reader has a few lines of song lyrics from Evanescense, and it says so before they play, a line by Fantasio Barrino from Summertime, also noted, I say Dumpster diving, which is a trademark, I say one of my characters favorite oldies is When the Doves Cry by Prince, I have two pages of info I say on PBS by Wayne Dyer in his "The Power of Intention" program, which I didn't quote verbatim and didn't mention his name, though I did say it was on Channel 13, let's see, what else, I talked about Sylvester Stallone and how all the Rambo movies suck, I have her best friend playing Doom on his computer. Boy oh boy, if it ain't one thing, it's another.

Rather than quote the actual lyrics, why not make a reference to the song that doesn't include quoting? Here's a paragraph from my WIP:

"I could tell Alexia was up in her room, because Green Day was blasting through the ceiling. I skipped up the stairs and knocked on the door.

"Hey!" she said, happy to see me. Billie Joe Armstrong sang about having the time of his life, and I flopped down on Lexi's bed."

No verbatim quoting, not even the name of the song. Simply a reference that people who are familiar with contemporary music will get.

[three seven]

Billie Joe Armstrong sang about having the time of his lifeSure about that?

[wurdwise]

I am wondering if three is asking are you sure that's the right singer, or are you sure that by saying the singers name and part of the words, it isn't still a copyright infringement. I gotta get this stuff right, we all do.

[three seven]

No, it was an off-topic remark about the meaning of the song. He's actually saying "I hope you had the time of your life."

Denise, I'm wondering about the tone of your previous two posts. There are two ways I could answer them, and obviously I wouldn't want to choose the wrong one... ;)

[wurdwise]

Sorry, I didn't know it (my azz) was showed.

How about this? Hey, if anyone can help pin this down, wouldn't it be great for us all ?:LilLove:

[Note On]

In one of my other lives, I'm a musician and ASCAP member. I want to clarify something that may or may not matter to anyone. Or maybe I'm muddling the issue further.

I've seen the songwriter referred to as though that's the person whose permission you need. The songwriter may not be the entity you're looking for. The entity (or entities) you want, if you're trying to use lyrics, is/are whoever owns the copyright to the lyrics. In many cases, this will be what's referred to as "the publisher," which means something different in music than it does in writing. In any case, you can't know what kind of entity will turn out to hold the copyright. Don't assume it's a songwriter.

ASCAP allows multiple entities to own various slices of the various copyrights associated with a piece of music. For example, the lyric may be owned by several people who collaborated on it, and who may share equally or unequally in any royalties. It may also be owned or co-owned by a production company, whose contract with the artist gave the company that ownership. It may also be owned by some weird person who shouldn't own it, because the songwriter was stupid and signed away rights.

(And the musical composition may be owned by completely different people from those who own the lyrics, or the same people, or some overlap with some different percentage of royalties assigned.)

It's complex, mostly because there's no set way of doing it. Bottom line is that the easiest place to start is probably the performing rights organization that you see mentioned on the back of the CD. In the US, this will probably be either ASCAP or BMI. In Europe, it may be SESAC. Those organizations should have the information you need. At the very least, they should have contact information for SOMEBODY who's associated with the song in some meaningful way.

It is also incorrect that reproducing a quatrain constitutes "fair use." That's just "use"; and as with all use of copyrighted material, there may or may not be an objection by the copyright holder, but you can't know until you ask permission.

Or--if you don't ask permission--until they sue you.

[PattiTheWicked]

Sure about that?

I guess techinically he was singing about hoping the rest of us had the time of OUR lives :)

[chawil]

This whole discussion seems insane. Surely you can quote from any work so long as you identify the author and your quote is part of a legitimate original work. Song lyrics are freely available for download on the internet so why all the fuss? It isn't as if you're making a recording of the song or offering the lyrics for sale as lyrics.

If this is the case then any quote from any work, including prose and poetry, should be cleared AND paid for if used by anyone, in which case things would become very sticky indeed, particularly for critics, academics and students who have quote published copyrighted material extensively.

[FredCharles]

Thanks for asking this question. I've been considering using song lyrics in my novel for awhile, but after reading all of the responses, it doesn't seem worth the effort. I'd just as soon write my own.

Thanks!

[Shara]

underthecity, if you have a publisher, then they can probably help you get the necessary permission.

As has already been stated, you need permission to quote song lyrics - without permission, you could be entering a litigation nightmare.

I had to do this myself a few years ago when I had a short story accepted for publication that contained two lines of a Jim Hedrix song. The publisher was a UK semi-pro magazine, and they said I needed permission before they could print. So, I set about finding out who owned the copyright on the song, and contacted them. They wrote back saying they needed to know about the publisher, the print run etc, etc.

I supplied this info, and consquently got a letter back denying permission. I got the impression that had I been a famous writer with a print run of thousands worldwide, instead of a little short story writer whose story would be read by maybe a couple of hundred people in the UK, it would have been a different story. But them's the breaks, as they say. Permission was refused, and the publisher and I changed the story so I was paraphrasing the lyrics, not quoting verbatim, and that's fine.

Since then, though, I have a new respect for Stephen King, who's written a few novels with song lyrics scattered throughout. Much time and energy must have gone into getting permission for so many. But then he's Stephen King, and who's going to deny him permission?

Shara

[The_Grand_Duchess]

This whole discussion seems insane. Surely you can quote from any work so long as you identify the author and your quote is part of a legitimate original work. Song lyrics are freely available for download on the internet so why all the fuss? It isn't as if you're making a recording of the song or offering the lyrics for sale as lyrics.

If this is the case then any quote from any work, including prose and poetry, should be cleared AND paid for if used by anyone, in which case things would become very sticky indeed, particularly for critics, academics and students who have quote published copyrighted material extensively.

Umm, actully you do have to pay when you use other pieces of prose and poetry in your work if they're not in the public domain. So if you use a snippit of a poem form 1850 or something then no, you don't have pay but if you use a poem from 1970 then yes, you owe someone money.

Of course this only really applies to money making operations ie books for publication. Acadamia is a diffrent beast entirly and really has no place in this discussion/

And technically everytime you download a song from a music sharing website you're stealing. That's why napster got shut down orginally and now you have to pay for it.

I was thinking about Stephen King when I stumbled across this thread too. He does use a lot of songs in his books but then again, he's Stephen King.

[Anthony Ravenscroft]

Surely you can quote from any work so long as you identify the author and your quote is part of a legitimate original work. Song lyrics are freely available for download on the internet so why all the fuss? ... If this is the case then any quote from any work, including prose and poetry, should be cleared AND paid for if used by anyone, in which case things would become very sticky indeed, particularly for critics, academics and students who have quote published copyrighted material extensively.
Okay, order of business.

Do you realise that your very first post on AW is dangling from a two-year-dead thread? The topic's been approached better since, & in various approaches & specific applications.

You basically define "copyright" & then deny that copyright protection exists. That's either totally nuts, or cheaply argumentative.

There's a big difference between citing a work, quoting a work within "fair use," & ripping off a substantial part of the work -- yes, songs exist in all their parts, & publishing the lyrics is theft. (Also, musicians have been sued blue for citing mere passages without permission: look into the suits around "My Sweet Lord," "Surfin' Bird," & "Can't Touch This.")

Speaking from your utter lack of understanding, you're about a centimetre away from advising people to go ahead & commit a crime, based on some instances of other people committing similar crimes. Great start!

[underthecity]

underthecity, if you have a publisher, then they can probably help you get the necessary permission.

Thanks, but it's been since early 2005 since I posted. I have long since abandoned the idea of using the song lyrics in the book, which came out December, 2005.


As has already been stated, you need permission to quote song lyrics - without permission, you could be entering a litigation nightmare.


And you're absolutely right, and chawil is absolutely wrong. And if you attempt to use song lyrics in your book without permission any legitimate publisher will require the permission. ("Legitimate" meaning "non-vanity.")

I supplied this info, and consquently got a letter back denying permission. I got the impression that had I been a famous writer with a print run of thousands worldwide, instead of a little short story writer whose story would be read by maybe a couple of hundred people in the UK . . .

Famous writer or no, whoever owns the rights to a Hendrix song has final say in how they will be used in publication. It's possible that even if you were Danielle Steele they still could have denied it.

Since then, though, I have a new respect for Stephen King, who's written a few novels with song lyrics scattered throughout. Much time and energy must have gone into getting permission for so many. But then he's Stephen King, and who's going to deny him permission?

Yes, but you'll also notice in the beginning of the book there is a listing of permissions granted for usage of each of those lyrics. In my copy of The Shining, the permission is at the bottom of the page (with the lyrics) in a footnote. In his earliest works, King probably sought permission and paid himself. Later, after he became famous, his publisher likely did it for him. Christine must have cost a fortune.

allen

[Medievalist]

This whole discussion seems insane. Surely you can quote from any work so long as you identify the author and your quote is part of a legitimate original work. Song lyrics are freely available for download on the internet so why all the fuss? It isn't as if you're making a recording of the song or offering the lyrics for sale as lyrics.

If this is the case then any quote from any work, including prose and poetry, should be cleared AND paid for if used by anyone, in which case things would become very sticky indeed, particularly for critics, academics and students who have quote published copyrighted material extensively.

If the work is published, you pretty much do have to have permission; there's some leeway, but only some, for academic works, but more often than not, if it's a book length study, yeah, you have to get permission.

I've never ever been turned down for a right's request, by the way.

There's an FAQ about this very subject right here (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58845).

[blacbird]

I've never ever been turned down for a right's request, by the way.


I know writers who have, however.

caw

[Medievalist]

I know writers who have, however.

caw

Yes; frankly I suspect part of the time they're turned down because of the way they query; I'm speaking now from the standpoint of someone who has requested thousands of individual rights.

Sometimes the price is too high--once we requested rights to use a publicity still of a recent movie in a CD-ROM and they quoted a fee for the single black and white image that was almost our entire still image budget.

[Kreez]

I know this forum is old, but what are the rules on a singer's name? In a story I wrote, someone asks "What is this music called?" another character answers something like "I dunno, it just says Hendrix on the disc."
No more details are given. It never specifically mentions guitar music or Hendrix being someone's name. The reader can choose to assume it's Jimi Hendrix or or that the disc's title refers to something else.

Is this grounds for lawsuit?

Thanks so much!

[katiemac]

I know this forum is old, but what are the rules on a singer's name? In a story I wrote, someone asks "What is this music called?" another character answers something like "I dunno, it just says Hendrix on the disc."
No more details are given. It never specifically mentions guitar music or Hendrix being someone's name. The reader can choose to assume it's Jimi Hendrix or or that the disc's title refers to something else.

Is this grounds for lawsuit?

Thanks so much!

Kreez, no problems there. The only concern is you might want to think about whether or not the singer you're considering using will date your book in 5, 10 or 50 years.

[Kreez]

I see. Well that's good to know, thank you. One more question about music in books.

What if I were to have partial lyrics to a song? For example, the character hears some music in the background but the surroundings are too loud for him to hear the lyrics clearly. So he hums something to the effect of "I haven't seen the rain" while he's waiting.
It's referring to CCR's Have you ever seen the rain song. But is this too obvious and therefore infringing?

[Gentle Giant]

I'm new here (second post!) and this thread is a goldmine for me because my current work in progress has not only song quotes but also quotes from movie scripts. The lead character is a media hound, the media provide one of his frames of reference in the world, and he finds truth in these excerpts. I understand that rights will need to be obtained, and a publisher may balk, but I do think they are integral to the story and true to the character's world. Paraphrasing would be a poor substitution. I don't know if this means I'm dooming my book from ever seeing the light of day, but I do know I plan to cross the rights bridge when I come to it, and continue with my manuscript as is. (I'm 32,000 words into it, and most of the quotes come earlier in the book as I'm establishing the character and his beliefs; now that I'm in the thick of the plot, there haven been few, if any, further quotes, but I wouldn't be surprised if one came at the climax and/or end.)

[newgreekwriter]

Eek. I would copy a second version of your story, taking out the certain quotes. My MC is a musician, so obviously, she sings songs from other singers. I sent the manuscript out with original song lyrics, not having any problems...so far...yet, I am also editting it by taking out the lyrics.

Just have two version to be safe. ;-)

[Barbara R.]

You have to locate the copyright holder of the song and ask for permission. There's usually a fee involved. It's a pain and an expense, which is why it's better to avoid quoting songs if you possibly can.

[Strange Days]

Ok, I do have a few lyrics the third book of my WIP, so I'm trying to read all the posts here and figure safe way out (literary merits of song usage put aside for the purpose of this)
you are safe if:
1) The line that you quote is the exact title of the song.
2) Paraphrase. (and here you can describe the "plot" of the lyrics and tune/arrangement)
Is that correct?

[newgreekwriter]

Paraphrase? Cite your source as well. (I have done this in my story too).

"Hey that one line about that girl, you sang that pretty swell!"
"Thanks. It's just Singer's 'Title'" <---is that what you mean by paraphrase?

[Strange Days]

Paraphrase? Cite your source as well. (I have done this in my story too).

"Hey that one line about that girl, you sang that pretty swell!"
"Thanks. It's just Singer's 'Title'" <---is that what you mean by paraphrase?


I mean, something like that:

"...There was a muted soundtrack to the exercises- some song about a mighty man named Joe, performed by the same female voice Jerome heard at the Kras Stadion a day before.* The rock-n-roll tune looped on, trapped in a stereo system..."

* "Mighty Joe" by Shocking Blue. Music and Lyrics by R. Van Leeuwen, 1968.

[newgreekwriter]

Haha, your example is more detailed than mine! I mean it seems all right. You're not placing the title and everything out there. It's like one of those things you either you understand as the reader (the hint) or not.

[auntybug]

This is odd. I knew there was a thread (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109120)about this because I had questions myself. I found the thread in my subscriptions which had a post (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1427386&postcount=2) with useful links & it was yours. Sorry, I didn't read though the whole thread - maybe it's already been done. I actually used one of the links & successfully contacted a lawyer. The response I got back was that they would wait until a publisher wanted the book then they wanted to know projected sales & what the price of the book was going to be set at before they gave me a price. Needless to say, I concentrated querying on something else. People fought me on it here but the lines that were used made the book to me and my readers. I wouldn't mind paying for the rights because the writer obviously deserves it. It's just on the back shelf for now.

[Strange Days]

Haha, your example is more detailed than mine! I mean it seems all right. You're not placing the title and everything out there. It's like one of those things you either you understand as the reader (the hint) or not.

True. :) Also in my WIP I have an episode:

"...-Silly bully boys, they annoyed Agrippa.., - Van Der Schoell smirked, - The same old story…
-What’s that?
-Nah, just from one old song. Don’t pay attention…"

I wonder if I can get away with the above... (Originals: "Silly bully boys, Agrippa they annoyed" from "Bully Boys" and "The same old Story" from "The same old Story- both by Martyn Jacques and Tigerlillies)

[blacbird]

True. :) Also in my WIP I have an episode:

"...-Silly bully boys, they annoyed Agrippa.., - Van Der Schoell smirked, - The same old story…
-What’s that?
-Nah, just from one old song. Don’t pay attention…"

I wonder if I can get away with the above... (Originals: "Silly bully boys, Agrippa they annoyed" from "Bully Boys" and "The same old Story" from "The same old Story- both by Martyn Jacques and Tigerlillies)

Regardless of whether or not you can "get away" with it, a more pertinent question you need to answer is "What do I accomplish for my reading audience by doing this?"

I, for instance, don't have clue one who any of these people are, or what the significance of the little exchange is. How many people will? And does it really do anything for your story?

caw

[newgreekwriter]

Yes, it all depends on whether it's a very important point to your story. I mean, I didn't understand that example, yet, my music taste is different!

I have read many books where it seems song lyrics were there, in an unobvious manner, and if they were, they were vital to the book (character listening to a song because of a mood, and so on).

I wouldn't worry about it unless an agent advised you not to.

[eyeblink]

Some song lyrics are certainly in the public domain, especially those written by "trad." "House of the Rising Sun" is an example. However, particular arrangements of this song are certainly in copyright - that's why Alan Price is the only one of the Animals who gets royalties from their version.

In the UK, if the author died before 1939, then copyright will have lapsed.

[Strange Days]

Regardless of whether or not you can "get away" with it, a more pertinent question you need to answer is "What do I accomplish for my reading audience by doing this?"

I, for instance, don't have clue one who any of these people are, or what the significance of the little exchange is. How many people will? And does it really do anything for your story?

caw

In this particular case, one of the characters methaphorised a situation that had just occurred with the help of a familiar (to him- not to the reader) song. What I tried to accomplish was to color up character's manner of speech here. As for whether is was succesfull or not- well, I won't know untill I finish it and get feedback from betas.

[Strange Days]

Yes, it all depends on whether it's a very important point to your story. I mean, I didn't understand that example, yet, my music taste is different!

I have read many books where it seems song lyrics were there, in an unobvious manner, and if they were, they were vital to the book (character listening to a song because of a mood, and so on).

I wouldn't worry about it unless an agent advised you not to.

Yeah, that makes sense, then. "Quotationism" in general is a trend in modern literature after all... And I enjoy it as a reader.

[blacbird]

Just for clarification, I wasn't trying to say that you shouldn't use pop culture quotes or references, only that you should be conscious of the question and be able to answer it to your own satisfaction. I've seen too many manuscripts where these kinds of references were "dropped in" without any real consideration of purpose.

caw

[Strange Days]

Just for clarification, I wasn't trying to say that you shouldn't use pop culture quotes or references, only that you should be conscious of the question and be able to answer it to your own satisfaction. I've seen too many manuscripts where these kinds of references were "dropped in" without any real consideration of purpose.

caw

That makes sense, of course. But (irrelevant to the topic of song quotations) a few times it happened when I wrote a sentense, which, after rational consideration, served no particular purpose. I removed it. Or replaced it. Without it though, the whole extract "read" differently: was harder, dryer, didn't "ring" as it should have... I'm kind of really puzzled about those: if I cannot formulate what those sentenses bring- do they REALLY bring anything at all?

[newgreekwriter]

That makes sense, of course. But (irrelevant to the topic of song quotations) a few times it happened when I wrote a sentense, which, after rational consideration, served no particular purpose. I removed it. Or replaced it. Without it though, the whole extract "read" differently: was harder, dryer, didn't "ring" as it should have... I'm kind of really puzzled about those: if I cannot formulate what those sentenses bring- do they REALLY bring anything at all?


To me, if you cannot, then...they must not bring anything at all. Whatever connection I make to a song or well-known novel, or even a TV show, must show something and be vital.

[IceCreamEmpress]

The response I got back was that they would wait until a publisher wanted the book then they wanted to know projected sales & what the price of the book was going to be set at before they gave me a price. Needless to say, I concentrated querying on something else.

I don't understand this. If you want to use the lyrics and you understand that you have to pay for the permissions, why not query the project? The fees are not in the thousands of dollars; even for big mass-market books with printings of 50,000 or more, they're in the hundreds of dollars.

[newgreekwriter]

I agree with IceCreamEmpress. You should still query. The most that will happen is, "Take out the lyrics." Big deal.

[Fredster]

Here's one - what about using a single line from something, but not actually as lyrics from a song?

For example:


Billy slowly climbed the ladder leaning against the oak tree and knocked lightly on the trapdoor overhead. It opened a crack, and a bright eye looked him over.

"Who lives in a pineapple under the sea?" the boy above asked.

"Spongebob Squarepants," Billy said.

The trapdoor opened completely, and Billy climbed into the treehouse.

[Maxinquaye]

Damn. This means I can't use 3 lines of "Working class hero"? :D

[katiemac]

Here's one - what about using a single line from something, but not actually as lyrics from a song?

For example:


Billy slowly climbed the ladder leaning against the oak tree and knocked lightly on the trapdoor overhead. It opened a crack, and a bright eye looked him over.

"Who lives in a pineapple under the sea?" the boy above asked.

"Spongebob Squarepants," Billy said.

The trapdoor opened completely, and Billy climbed into the treehouse.

I'm no expert, but you can avoid any headaches by rewriting the lines outside of the lyrics:

"Where does the sponge live?"

"In a pineapple under the sea."

[djf881]

Here's one - what about using a single line from something, but not actually as lyrics from a song?

For example:


Billy slowly climbed the ladder leaning against the oak tree and knocked lightly on the trapdoor overhead. It opened a crack, and a bright eye looked him over.

"Who lives in a pineapple under the sea?" the boy above asked.

"Spongebob Squarepants," Billy said.

The trapdoor opened completely, and Billy climbed into the treehouse.


It's as acceptable to use that in your book as it is to post it on this forum.

[Fame<Infamy]

I was planning to use "Baby It's Cold Outside" and I've found that their publisher holds a lot of rights and even has this form that mentions novels.

http://www.halleonard.com/permissions/pre_lyric_request.jsp

[velvetlove1980]

If a song is public domain, can you use some of the lyrics in a book? I am writing a novel and I want to use a line or two of a song from the 1700's and I want to do it in the Cherokee language. But I don't want to get in trouble for doing this.

[blacbird]

If a song is public domain, can you use some of the lyrics in a book? .

If the lyrics are in public domain, they are free for use. They should, however, be credited; otherwise, you veer into plagiarism.

caw

[velvetlove1980]

If the lyrics are in public domain, they are free for use. They should, however, be credited; otherwise, you veer into plagiarism.

caw


Ok thanks so much for the info.

[fraxum]

Even though well aged, great thread. Music inspires me in my new version of myself as a writer. I had hoped to use lines from different songs as lead ins to chapters at some point. I plan to alter this plan.

A question from the other direction. What if the story described in the song is the bones of my plot? Is this fair use? I have no direct lyric quotes, but I did borrow one characters name from the song.

I would not want to use this story if I could not pay homage to the lyric writer and the artist in some way.

Abandon or forge ahead?