Abundant Swearing

[three seven]

People are always bleating that swearing is a sign of low intelligence, limited vocabulary and lack of sexual potency (probably.) But those mother****ers don't know s**t. If you're a young man of dubious moral standing - like me, for example - you'll know that like smoking, swearing is clever and makes you look hard. Discuss.

Seriously though, bearing in mind that it's the 21st century and we're all at least semi-literate and moderately intelligent, how many of you guys are actually offended by strong language, and why? Or do you think that considering part of the language to be obscene is obscene in itself?
I know lots of different ways of saying "please leave my immediate vicinity," "you are a mean and obnoxious person" and "could I trouble you to place a quantity of used banknotes into this retail outlet-supplied polythene instrument of portage," but I'd tend for the sake of clarity to use the abridged version. How about you?

Does swearing get your back up, or do you consider it a valid way of expressing your intent? Is the TV version of Midnight Run as funny as the uncut version? Would Reservoir Dogs have been better if they all called each other sweetheart?

And, to get to the actual point, Is protecting the delicate sensibilities of the easily-offended more important than portraying realistic characters?

[azbikergirl]

Swearing does not offend me as a reader, but I'd hope that it's used sparingly to make a point. It'll get old very quickly if every other word out of a character's mouth starts with F. I have a character who's a peasant and kind of rough. He cusses. The guys he hangs with cuss. It's part of their image. Another character does not, even though the people she hangs with often do. As she puts it, "my mouth and my arse have different purposes." :)

[CindyBidar]

I'm not easily offended. Swearing doesn't get my fur up. In the right situation, I can string enough four-letter words together to make Zaz blush. What does offend me is racial slurs. However, I do recognize the need for characterization in writing. If the character would use a racial slur, I have no problem writing it (or reading it). If that offends someone, then they probably shouldn't read my stuff.

[three seven]

I agree Cindy, though IMO racial slurs are a whole different issue, and one that I actually have difficulty understanding (a bastardisation of a simple Latin adjective adopted by those purported to be offended by it while its literal English translation is deemed inoffensive... I don't get it so I just steer clear!)

[Trapped in amber]

I've never been offended by swearing in and of itself, I suppose it depends on the context. Obviously, if someone is swearing at me, then I will regard it as a reflection of their stupidity;). If someone is swearing in order to hurl abuse at someone else, then I think that is offensive. But then again, someone doesn't have to be swearing in order to do that. I don't think a hammer will mind you swearing at it after you've smashed your thumb.

I think less is more when it comes to swearing in writing, and every swear word needs to be justified, the same as any other element in a story.

[Betty W01]

I'm not easily offended, either, unless you use God's name in vain (i.e. for something other than prayer, praise, or a religious discussion) or are calling people names that denigrate their race, color, religion, or gender. Don't call your girlfriend your "ho". Call a homosexual a homosexual, not a fag. (Don't get me started on the co-opting of the word "gay"....) Arabs aren't "rag-heads". A man wearing a yarmulke is NOT wearing a beanie. And I won't even spell out the N word you'd better omit if you're talking to me about someone whose color is dark.

The F word and other crude words referring to bodily functions? I wince, but I won't get mad. (I may even occasionally say "Damn!" myself, or "Oh, ****! when I drop something heavy on my foot.) However, since I don't normally talk that way and don't enjoy being talked to that way, I may not like being around you very much if cussing is a large part of your vocabulary, I won't buy your cuss-word-filled books, CDs or movies (like The Commitments, which set a new record as far as I'm concerned with the numbers of F words in it), and I will pity the people in your life who have to listen to it day in, day out. (And if you really want a lecture, use really foul language in front of kids while I'm around. I'll rip you a new one, even if I don't know you. :box: )

OK, I'm done... :Soapbox:

PS We have more new smileys!! :snoopy:

[Jamesaritchie]

People are always bleating that swearing is a sign of low intelligence, limited vocabulary and lack of sexual potency (probably.) But those mother****ers don't know s**t. If you're a young man of dubious moral standing - like me, for example - you'll know that like smoking, swearing is clever and makes you look hard. Discuss.

Seriously though, bearing in mind that it's the 21st century and we're all at least semi-literate and moderately intelligent, how many of you guys are actually offended by strong language, and why? Or do you think that considering part of the language to be obscene is obscene in itself?
I know lots of different ways of saying "please leave my immediate vicinity," "you are a mean and obnoxious person" and "could I trouble you to place a quantity of used banknotes into this retail outlet-supplied polythene instrument of portage," but I'd tend for the sake of clarity to use the abridged version. How about you?

Does swearing get your back up, or do you consider it a valid way of expressing your intent? Is the TV version of Midnight Run as funny as the uncut version? Would Reservoir Dogs have been better if they all called each other sweetheart?

And, to get to the actual point, Is protecting the delicate sensibilities of the easily-offended more important than portraying realistic characters?

Excessive swearing doesn't offend me, and if it's really pertinent to the story, it doesn't bother me. I don;t even mind a swear word or two in person WHEN there's a reason for them.

At the same time, people who can't talk without inserting swear words in every sentence are people I don't want to hang around with. I think it is a sign of a poor vocabulary, low moral fibre, and questionable intelligence. But mostly it's a sign the person knows very little about communication, and hasn't bothered to learn that people pay less attention to people who use such language.

[maestrowork]

If it fits the story and characters. If I want a cuss-free book, I'll go in the YA or Christian section. I know if I go into the mainstream or suspense section, I'm going encounter swearing. That's perfectly fine with me.

I swear like a sailor myself anyway.

[three seven]

Betty, just so we're clear, was that a personal attack or just a generalisation? I noticed a couple of 'if's in there but it's kind of ambiguous and I'd like to be sure before I formulate my response... http://www.geocities.com/thingumybobwotsit/undecided.gif

[three seven]

people who can't talk without inserting swear words in every sentence are people I don't want to hang around with. I think it is a sign of a poor vocabulary, low moral fibre, and questionable intelligence. But mostly it's a sign the person knows very little about communication, and hasn't bothered to learn that people pay less attention to people who use such language.
I swear like a sailor myself
Just so I'm being clear, I'm talking specifically about works of fiction, and not whether you think Ray is uneducated!

[Azure Skye]

Mmmm, profanity - my favorite.

Swearing doesn't bother me. I swear all the time.:wag:


It can be overdone. There's a movie that comes to mind that seemed to drop the f-bomb in willie-nillie. It didn't make much sense to me or should I say I wouldn't have used the f-bomb in those places.

[BradyH1861]

I swear if I am ticked off about something or upset about something. That is actually how people can tell when I am angry. So when I read something and the characters are angry/upset/scared and they swear, then I assume they are being perfectly normal.

Of course, I dont know sh%$

ha ha ha

Brady H.

[pepperlandgirl]

When I'm in the privacy of my own home, and when I'm writing, I use swear words liberally. It's how I talk. It's how most of my characters talk. If people get offended, tough cookies. ;)

Though I watch myself very carefull at home and work and usually my language is perfectly clean unless I'm really angry (I've been swearing a lot at the Registar's office lately...)

[E.G. Gammon]

I only use cussing when it seems appropriate. Early on in my first book, a husband slaps his wife, who turns around and slaps him back even harder, calling him a "son of a you-know-what." The scene wouldn't have as much punch if she called him a "bad bad man," now would it?

I, personally, use cuss words all the time, but I realize not everyone does, and I keep the number of them in my work at a minimum.

[three seven]

Ok, I'm finding this interesting. Can anyone tell me why they find these words offensive when used in general speech, and not as an insult or threat?

[Denis Castellan]

Ok, I'm finding this interesting. Can anyone tell me why they find these words offensive when used in general speech, and not as an insult or threat?
I'd say these words are out of place in general speech because you don't want to be offensive, you want to communicate in a civilized way.

On the contrary, an insult (or a threat) is meant to be offensive, so you just forget all your education and throw the worst words you can think of (and you sometimes even feel good doing it.)

[Vomaxx]

"But orcs and trolls spoke as they would, without love of words or things; and their language was actually more degraded and filthy than I have shown it. I do not suppose that any will wish for a closer rendering, though models are easy to find. Much of the same sort of talk can still be heard among the orc-minded; dreary and repetitive with hatred and contempt, too long removed from good to retain even verbal vigour, save in the ears of those to whom only the squalid sounds strong." --J.R.R. Tolkien


Bravo, professor.

[Birol]

Interesting discussion, Three.

I've recently started my second novel (without the first one being completely finished, I might add) and one of the main characters tends to swear quite a bit. Okay, more than I do. The first word/thought we hear from him jumps straight to F---. I was a bit surprised when I typed it, but it fits his character (and yes, Betty, he takes the Lord's name in vain a bit, too; it's just the way he is). I'm eager to hear what my writing group thinks about the language (and the story and the characters and all of it) when we meet this coming Sunday, whether they think it is gratuitous or if I've managed to pull it off or if they even really notice it as much as I have or if it just doesn't matter because the story is reading as trite and predictable anyway.

[SRHowen]

I did a workshop once where the instructor talked about swearing and cussing. Through the entire workshop he never used one swear word. Near the end he used the f word--just once. I tell you what, everyone sat up in their seats and took notice. He made his point. Use too many and no even notices them, if they keep reading, and really ask yourself if you hadn't written the book would you be reading one chock full of f this and f that?

Use them sparingly and the reader will take note, the word or words will have power in them.

One of my older kids (he’s almost 30 now) uses the f word to describe everything--it's f'n this and f'n that. Is the word needed? No. When he says I went to the f'n store cause I had to get some f'n beer, and the f'n place had a long f'n line--I want to laugh out loud.

And i don't want to listen to him. What, he can't find any better way to decribe things that he must resort to a swear word? That I think is the main reason that swearing is seen as a sign of low intelligence.

I see 2000+ people a day at 7-11. Take the early AM people, teachers, executives, even construction works, those employed and on their way to work, and since we are on the Austin route--those who are better educated. I rarely hear a swear word.

It's I went to the corner store, because i needed some Coors, and the line was incredibly long. Gee, actual descriptions, no cop outs cause they can't use their brain to describe something.

Let's get into late second shift and midnights--same number of people, but now we see the unemployed, the school drop outs--those from the drug haven apartments across the street--it's back to f'n this and f'n that.

I wonder why? (Sarcasm intended)

I think any use of "shock" words needs to be weighed. Yeah, a character might swear, but when the author starts putting them into author voice, I wonder about their skill as a writer--see above--they couldn't think of any better word to use?

Just my opinion, not an attack on anyone.

Shawn

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

Speaking as a non-Christian, I'm not at all offended when people or characters "take the Lord's name in vain," and my very presence would probably offend Betty to no end because when I use Deities' names in my swearing, it's shameless and it's plural. Thing about being Pagan is, you've got a lot of Gods you can swear by, and none of them that I know of have laid down laws telling you not to.

Now, my characters tend to use what you'd most often hear, though. "Jesus H. Christ!" and "what the hell?" and "dammit!" and of course the f-bomb, which is used sparingly so as not to dilute its effect. I do have a few characters that swear in Pagan, but only a very few, and only once it's been established that such out-of-the-ordinary cussing is in character for them. Otherwise it would jar the reader.

But, speaking of the Second Commandment (or Third, depending on your specific religion and denomination), I do find myself puzzled by the frequency with which I hear it violated. Seems to me that no one, be they Christian, Jew, or Wiccan, has any reason to do so. Those who value the commandment oughtn't to, because, duh, the God they believe in said don't. And those who don't believe in that particular God oughtn't to, because, given that they don't believe in Him, their taking of His name in vain has absolutely no meaning to their very own selves. I mean, really, think about it: Why does my husband say "Jesus!" when he's annoyed? Why am I tempted to say "Oh my God!" Neither of us find those words meaningful enough to make them worth swearing on. Contrariwise, if we did find them meaningful, we would, like Betty, believe it was wrong to swear on them. Right?

It's one of the western world's most ubiquitous examples of lazy speech. Most of us just do it out of habit, whether we believe it's wrong or we believe it's meaningless.

Lazy speech. It's why I try to remember to swear by things like "crudmonkeys" and "all the Gods in alphabetical order." And it's why my characters, who have to be believable, generally don't. If they weren't lazy like the rest of us, they wouldn't be very believable, would they?

[SRHowen]

And in American we do tend to be the of the lazy speech kind. Just watch or listen to some try to order something--if it has a long name they shorten it. Why else would we have so many acronyms?

Thank you for the words--Lazy Speech that is exaclty what I was after.

Shawn

[Duncan J Macdonald]

Does swearing get your back up, or do you consider it a valid way of expressing your intent? Is the TV version of Midnight Run as funny as the uncut version? Would Reservoir Dogs have been better if they all called each other sweetheart?

And, to get to the actual point, Is protecting the delicate sensibilities of the easily-offended more important than portraying realistic characters?
I spent twenty years as active duty Navy, so no, strong language in and of itself isn't a problem. Overuse is.
Your characters need to be as real as you can make them. A stevedore is not a nun, and they shouldn't speak the same way.

Question:
Are you discriminating among swearing, cursing, oaths, and vulgarity?

If not, why not?

[Hang of Thursdays]

Speaking as a non-Christian, I'm not at all offended when people or characters "take the Lord's name in vain,"

You'll pardon any sarcasm, I hope, while I note that that's usually the case with most non-Christians ;)

I swear frequently when I'm by myself, but curtail when I'm around other people. I may put on a mask of disingenuity about swear words "Why would anyone think "***" is any different from "rump"?" in order to make an occasional point; I'm quite aware that a good many people find them objectionable, so, in order to get along with other people, I stop swearing, or judge a tolerance for it and go from there (I can usually get away with "damn" and "hell" in front of my mom, but you forget about saying anything worse than that.")

I swear because I find that the sounds of the words satisfy certain...er...linguistic feelings? "****" and "Crap" mean the same thing, and get used in exactly the same way but "****" hits harder, and lets off more steam.

I seriously doubt that a "rough" vocabulary is any sign of a *limited* vocabulary, or a serious deficiency in intelligence. How many intelligent things can you say when you bash your thumb in with a hammer?

"Never use a three dollar word when a .50c one will do."

-Mark Twain, hopefully.

[TashaGoddard]

I swear all the time about things, but I never (or rarely) swear at people. It's rare that I feel negative enough about a person to swear at them. If their ideas don't entirely mesh with mine, I tend to try to debate the issue, rather than resort to name-calling. My computer, on the other hand, must have very low self-esteem by now, because I really do lay into it. I swear when I stub my toe. I swear at car drivers who soak me with dirty water when driving past too fast (but not if they can hear) and car drivers who have parked on the pavement (but not if they can hear - although sometimes I give them a polite, but firm 'piece of my mind'). My everyday speech is peppered with swearwords. So much so, that I have to be very very careful when I'm visiting my in-laws, grandparents or friends with children. My own parents don't give a cr*p - no doubt that's where I get it from (and also where I get the not swearing at people, but swearing about things distinctin).

In my writing, there is not very much swearing, though. I think this is probably because it's like being in the company of in-laws, grandparents and children. That's not to say there isn't any swearing at all. But I think, as others have said, it tends to be more effective when used sparingly.

As I'm not offended by swearing myself (except when it's directed at me), what annoye me more than a book, film or TV-show peppered with swear words, is one that has none at all. The need not to use swear words before the watershed means that British soap characters do not use swear words. Despite the fact that many of these characters are the sort of people who would use them all the time in real life. To me, these words are just a part of life and a realistic piece of fiction (whether it be for TV, the big screen, or the printed page) needs to include them (in the relevant places), if it's to be realistic.

So, actually, perhaps there should be more swearing in my writing, after all? Hmm. That's something to look at in rewrite, I think.

[preyer]

studies have shown that people who swear do so oftentimes out of self-confidence. i personally don't have a problem telling someone to f-off if that's exactly what i mean to say. i, too, curse a thousand times a day. and guess what? people i know in real life usually confuse me with an intelligent person because between all the cursing there's sometimes a thought mixed in.

i find it hilarious to see the words 'intelligent' and 'educated' within close proximity of each other. lemme tell y'all something, some of the dumbest, and i mean truly stupid people, i know have the pieces of paper to prove their dumbassedness. where i work it's mandatory that management have degrees, and i'll be flat-out honest when i say there's literally not a single one of the fools in upper management (most of whom i know personally) who i'd let run my car wash. some swear, most don't, though. odd, that, eh? those who don't swear don't swear because they're too intelligent (oh, far from it), but it's the culture they're a part of. they don't swear because that's not a part of how someone thinks they're supposed to act. you don't find salesmen swearing because they're afraid of blowing a deal. when you spending the majority of your waking life not swearing at work, it's easy to see how that carries over. am i offended by swear words? hah! wanna know what offends me? when a president gets in front of a national audience and avers, 'i did not have sex with that woman.' when a person who can't run their own lives tries to run mine. when a single mother of four children lives off their mother, but won't get a job or on some kind of assistance, all the while looking down her nose at me because i don't go to church three times a week (true story).

in real life, if someone swears to make or emphasize a point, there's no problems on my end. by the same token, if i know it offends someone, i'll *try* not to swear, but, hey, don't ask me my opinion on my union boss if you don't want to hear a colourful list of select words. it's like putting your hand on a stovetop, know what i mean? then again, i also don't trust people who 1) actually has a desire to be my boss (a more flawed personality trait i can hardly imagine) and 2) someone who doesn't have any prejudices. sorry, but to me, if you don't hate someone or something, you're not a real person.

i say all that because those are my experiences based in real life and i expect characters to be real. my WIP uses blue language profusely not to shock or emphasize. quite the contrary. i use them so often they have absolutely no meaning. still, though i know it's not always the technically correct thing to do based on real life, i'll refrain from my more 'intelligent' characters using swear words just because most readers have a misunderstanding of them and their psychological realities. 'dumb people swear' is pretty much the erroneous rule. that 'rule' has absolutely no basis in reality and not a single legitimate leg to stand on. then again, if you judge a person's intelligence based on the work they do (or don't do), you've got serious problems, lol. the manner in which they speak, cussing notwithstanding, is a more accurate judgement, but, still, it's hardly more than *indicative*, and not to be confused with rock-solid fact. but, idiots often confuse 'intelligence' with 'education,' i presume because they possess neither, lol.

high-moral fibre. i scoff at that very notion and dismiss it out of hand when comparing non-swearing people and their righteousness. anyone who wants to IM me ( brandysno1guy -- don't laugh, my wife made that up while i was asleep), will probably find me quite a reasonable person... who swears a sihtload. and if there's a heaven, i'm fairly confident i'll get in before most lawyers, politicians, used car salesmen, CEO or president. what, someone thinks you get to be president by being a nice guy? please. you don't get to a position of true power without being a son-of-a-*****. i think that's worth bearing in mind for characters. you can be a nice guy when you go home to your family at night, but once you're in that boardroom or on the battlefield, effective decisions don't always equate to doing the right thing. i'll make a deal with people with supposedly high-moral fibre: don't send my son overseas to kill and die for no damn good reason and you can swear all you want. don't close the plant where i make my living to send my job to a third-world siht-box then raise my taxes a minute later to make up for the loss of city revenue, and you can skywrite f_ _ _ in thousand foot letters.

as mentioned, swear words have exactly as much power as you give them. i think that's important to consider when writing. are you going to give them power or take that power away based on your own personal opinions of how things *should* be? if you do that, who, if anyone, are you disservicing? if you haven't heard a racial slur uttered in the last two years, what sunshine-ville are you living in, and can such a hothouse flower be trusted to inflict their own moral fibre on people from such a removed place? this is really telling of a character who goes out of their way not to swear, too. what's their reasoning for it? not everyone should swear if it makes them uncomfortable, of course, but if your CEO just laid-off 30,000 right before x-mas (which is a very typical time for lay-offs as it fits into their fiscal quarters) so he could make that bonus incentive, yet refused to mutter a 'profane' word, how much more hypocracy does there have to be there to 'justify' his murder by a disgruntled employee who *does* swear, but who's otherwise just a regular guy who has to take a crappy factory job to take care of his family? who's the more profane? you might as well make the absurd claim that people of low moral fibre smoke, too. as opposed to those of high moral fibre who drink too much wine.

naturally, i find it just perfectly fitting for this backwards, unwordly country to draw distinction between 'damn' and 'siht.' oh, my gawd! OO boobs! avert thine virgin eyes! americans are like that, though. stupid americans. that's why we make the best characters. germans make lousy characters because they're smarter than we are and have their philosophies figured out. only americans do one thing and say another, tout freedom while being the first to repress people's rights (well, the chinese are pretty good about that, too, and i wonder how many of them swear up a storm?).

in real life, i've little to no real corrolation between moral fibre/intelligence (which lumping the two together is itself hilariously unthought-out, as if the two hold hands on a sandy beach at sunset) and swearing. in my example of the unwed mother of four above, the woman refuses to swear. nevermind she breaks all kinds of codes of morals and ethics that most reasonable people hold, she won't cuss, boy howdy. but, people i respect and who *happen* to be christian or muslim (oddly, i don't know any jewish people, though i imagine there'd be no difference there) might swear every now and then if you get their dander up. sure, it's hypocritical (last i looked, swearing wasn't a sin, but, c'mon, it probably kinda is, but i reckon it's on the level of ordering that piece of tirimasu after you're already full), but it's not an issue unless they make it one. don't say i shouldn't use the f-word when an hour ago i just head 'siht' come out of your mouth, then defend it by saying, 'oh, that's different. your word is worse and plus i was mad when i said it.' oh, okay, hypocrite, i guess you're right, being of such high moral fibre and all, at least when it's convenient.

that's what this rant boils down to for me: if you're a hypocrite with an easily destroyed position, you may convince someone to lead a highly 'moral' and repressed life, but you're only convincing those easily fooled. how can a writer be a hypocrite and possibly write believable characters? by extension, all those characters are flawed, and while character flaws are essential to avoid having a mary sue, it's also of paramount importance to recognize that they *are* flaws not to be confused with being right. i think your character can start out being profance and through a series of events become righteous, and as a result probably will drop the use of swear words, but i say that that's a case of making a conscious decision and not by some de facto situation where 'naturally' swearing is stopped. obviously, speech patterns reflect the culture. the comment about people who swear having a lower sexual capacity or urge or whatever is patently ridiculous.

in short, education illicits a culture wherein swearing is not encouraged for whatever reason. education does NOT make a person morally strong by itself. high moral fibre does not encourage swearing, either, but nor should it promote hypocracy. don't think you're any less of a sinner, if cussing is a sin, for saying 'damn' when what you want to say is 'f'. it's a great character flaw to work out, but a poor standard to live by if your intention is the same for either word. if you scream at the car in front of you for cutting you off, is your god going to consider the difference between 'you siht!' as oppsed to 'you monkeydoodle!'? pretty ridiculous when the force behind it is still vitriol-based invective, eh? lol. that's another great character growth: the character who forcibly restrains her speech and through a process of growth lets loose at last in a tirade, which may exlemplify her freedom.

i like the comment about the son who swears profusely and it's a comical thing. that poster has a prejudice against people who swear. i know i can trust her to a certain extent, heh heh (though, as i recall without looking back at the post, my opinion is the assertions otherwise made are pretty ignorant, no offense. at least the assertions were backed-up with examples). while i think it's right to give the words themselves absolutely no credence, which they don't deserve, i can't agree that the content is unworthy merely because it's not to the listeners preferences.

here in dayton it's actually a city ordinance you can't use foul or offensive language in public. you can be cited. yep, that's what i call freedom in a totally unrepressive society, you betcha. what i find even more amazing is people are offended by words. be offended by the content and/or intent.

other ridiculous assertions:

people who swear:

...are violent

...are more prone to drugs and alcohol (if this is true, it's only a cause of the society they're in being poor, which, i admit, poor people (which is rapidly becoming everyone around me) probably *do* swear more... then again they don't have terrific reason not to)

...drive american made, used cars

...are unmarried

...don't attend church

...own guns

...are middle- or lower-class

...always repeat themselves

...smoke

...speed

...are divorced

...are going to hell

...suffer from premature ejaculation on those rare instances where viagra isn't needed

...are uneducated

...listen to rock 'n roll or rap

...don't own a suit

...masturbate frequently

...have absolutely no regard for their fellow man

...always repeat themselves

...make bad, plainly foreshadowed jokes

...own pornography

...rant endlessly

...are opinionated

...doesn't read the newspaper

...thinks jerry bruckheimer is a genius

...watches 'south park' and other filth

...is immoral and can't be trusted

...is more likely to cheat on their spouse

...has a higher likelihood of being gay

...is prejudiced

...has tattooes (my personal favourite)

...has had sex out of wedlock/one night stand

...is just plain wrong in everything

...should get some kind of cancer like smokers

...have criminal tendacies

...are usually male (though this might have some merit, as usually men are more self-confident than women by maybe a few percentage points)

...eats fast food more often

...thinks 'ong-bak' looks like it might be a cool movie

...is over-weight

...is more likely to die of gun-shot wounds

...owns some form of hound dog

...spends too much time on the computer or watching t.v.

...doesn't read

...can't read

...wouldn't read if he could

...can't because he's too blessed dumb

...more likely to shoot pool and throw darts

...owns tight or revealing clothing

...doesn't understand corporate buzzwords are bullsiht

...are more likely to block the sun with a wall of stacked beer cans than ridiculously priced curtains

...doesn't vote

...are more likely to actually be of some useful purpose around the house

...wouldn't know the first thing about water-cooler conversations because they've got real jobs that actually gets things accomplished

...are 'common'

...aren't worth listening to

...have no imagination

...are more likely to be condoscending, arrogant pricks (oops, this is for my 'people with college degrees' thread)

...know how much a 'quarter' costs

...barely speaks their own language with any fluency (purely a cultural thing most of the time)

...are more likely to be non-white

...aren't usually the competent ones at what they do for a living

...rent rather than own

...hate the fact 'the man' forces them to wear seatbeats

...don't wear watches

...still has cable

...shops ebay

and finally

people who swear have posters on their wall instead of framed prints

did i say 'in short'? i lied.

[Fillanzea]

I'm hearing a lot of comments to the effect of "Why should X be considered offensive, when Y isn't?"--and in some sense that's valid. But c'mon, we're writers. We should know better than anyone that a word isn't just its dictionary definition. There's no good reason why we should be offended by f***, but language is arbitrary all over--neither is there any good reason why 'cat' should designate the thing that it does.

Connotations are as important as literal meanings, and in the case of swearing most of those connotations are emotional and social. It can intensify ('That was a f'n sweet concert') or express anger and to some extent it usually implies "Yes, I know I'm being offensive, but I don't care if I offend you" or "Yes, I'd be offensive to anyone else, but we're on such intimate terms that we don't need to worry about formalities." You don't swear to your university professor or your boss. And these politeness distinctions are really useful socially; just about every language has them in some form or another.

It's not about morality and intelligence; it is about attitude and the impression you're trying to project to people. I'm not offended, but I am annoyed, when people presume an intimacy that isn't there by using coarse language with me. And of COURSE I am more offended by "f*** off!" than by "please leave my immediate vicinity"! The first says, "Leave my immediate vicinity--AND I am so angry with you that I can't be bothered with the least expression of politeness." Is it surprising that that should be offensive?

"Anyone who's offended by it is just plain wrong" is, I think, the wrong attitude to take. If these words weren't offensive, there'd be no reason for them to exist! It's good to have offensive words--and to use them within contexts that are appropriate.

In books, a little swearing goes a long way--just like you only need to sprinkle in a few foreign words to establish a character as a foreigner, you only need a little to tell you how the character uses language.

[three seven]

[QUOTE=Fillanzea]If these words weren't offensive, there'd be no reason for them to exist! It's good to have offensive words--and to use them within contexts that are appropriate.[QUOTE]
I was wondering how long it would take for someone to point that out!

So what is it then, a simple matter of politeness that makes it offensive?
I actually agree with Fillanzea in that I don't expect someone I've just encountered to say "Cor, f**king cold today, innit." It does suggest a familiarity that isn't there, and perhaps represents an invasion of personal space?

Or is it an aggression issue? Someone I know, a good friend of my girlfriend, talks pretty much like this: "F****ing c****, he doesn't give a f****ing s**** about me, he's f****ing more interested in going down the f***ing snooker club with f***ing Bennett." Now I can't be in her presence for more than four or five minutes because it just grates on me and drains my energy. But then, I'm not offended by the words, and a lot of the time they're not used in anger but as a way of filling in the gaps while she's trying to remember the next word (or so it seems.) And they're not aimed at me, so I've no reason to feel aggrieved, but I can't stand it. Why not?

I personally have a potty mouth, as I'm sure you've already noticed. I use swearwords for emphasis, for yelling at other drivers and my computer and the dog and anything else that gets in my way, and to express my dismay at drilling through my hand. In entertainment, I thoroughly enjoy a bit of imaginitive swearing. Some of my all-time favourite movie lines have f-words in them. I swear like Maestro in impolite company, but being in an environment of continuous profanity makes me cringe and want to leave, and I don't swear in front of strangers, even ignorant ones.

I know I said this was supposed to be about fiction, but I'm even more confused now than I was before!

[Hermit]

I'm glad I found this message board and even more glad that this topic came up. It's something I've been trying to deal with for quite awhile.

What about the history of cuss words? I'm curious to find out when they came about and why. More important though, I think the use of cuss words by a character is also influenced by the era they are in. In the 50's, cuss words weren't heard (and accepted) as they are today. What about in the 1300's?

Thanks for the great insight here. This is a fascinating thread.

[azbikergirl]

It's pricey, but the OED online has a good etymology of most words you'd care to look up. They're always adding new ones. In one stage of my novel (fantasy, medievalish setting) I went through and looked up every questionable word to make sure it wasn't too young. I decided on a date that I would use as a cut-off for what words I would allow, and discovered that our usual cuss words are quite old. Critters often comment that I use "modern" cuss words, but the F word has been around a loooooong time.

What I've found to be more fun than using the usual swear words like f***, sh**, damn and hell is to make them up. A couple popular forumulas are

bodypart + animal = cuss word
assmonkey
toebunny

or

nasty substance + household item = cuss word
slimebucket
fartknocker

Any other fun formulas out there?
:Cheers:

[Puddle Jumper]

I tend to tune people out who use abundant foul language, mainly because it's that, "foul." It probably has a lot to do with how I was raised. There was a zero tolerance level in my home for such language, you didn't use it and if you did, you'd get into trouble. I was raised being taught that to use such language is extremely disrespectful to other people. One of the dictionary definitions for the word swear is, "to use profane or obscene language." Profane means to treat something sacred with abuse, irreverence or contempt and obscene means repulsive and abhorrent to morality or virtue. Essentially then, swearing is in its nature a verbal abuse against others. Thus it is disrespectful and rude.

So as I said, I tend to tune such people out. Most people don't just stand around and allow someone to abuse them.

That being said, I'm not saying it doesn't have a place in fiction, because despite how I feel about it, such language is abundant in our society and a part of human nature it seems. I'm not as apt to write such words into my works. I'm more apt to simply state that a character swore, such as, "He swore quietly under his breath." Or, "A stream of profanities protruded from his lips."

I'm not sure if the use of foul language represents and individual's intelligence level. Maybe more their social level. I do think that using such language makes a perseon seem less intelligent, whether or not that's true. But we are judged by others for how we speak and what we say. As long as you say nothing, no one can tell how intelligent you are. The moment you open your mouth, people immediately make their judgements.

[Dev]

I think foul language is wonderful, if it suits the character. If not, leave it out. Avoiding swearing altogether seems to me only self-limiting. Just my opinion, though.

--Dev

[CACTUSWENDY]

:eek: ...............in my crime book....@ 55,000 words....i would guess that there are about 30 cuss words in it so far.

Movies, as with books, tend to get old when the lack of education shows through in every other word being 'smack' talk. Cussing is like bad manners.......you are what comes out of your mouth. If lies come out all the time.....you get my drift.

For my writting i give some thought to using cuss words....do they fit or are they needed in what I'm in right now.

I find that humor has turned sour in the last few years with the use of cuss words to get a laugh, and that kind of troubles me. (I enjoy a good laugh) But like all things....this is just my opinion.
:Shrug:

[sellthepharm]

'Offensive' may be too strong of a word; 'distasteful' is probably the word I would use, in my case. I consider the use of strong language in books, movies, and in person to be much akin to the word 'like'. There is certainly a place for the word 'like' in the English language, i.e., she looks like your mother, I like ice cream, I like you, etc. It's when these words are used as a literary and verbal crutch that I start having a problem with them.

For example, if you were to take an average American teenager, tie them to a chair and tell them they wouldn't be released until they completed one cogent, complete sentence without using the work 'like', I fear that hapless teen would die of starvation. Listening to a teen these days try to convey a rational thought sets my teeth on edge. Just when I thought the English language couldn't be butchered any further.....

As far as the use of such words in books and movies, I agree with many of the other posters - when used in context and not simply for the sake of swearing, they have their place. I have a couple of examples - one where I think swearing is necessary and one where it is merely gratuitous and unnecessary.

Midnight Run is a perfect case in point (and one of my favorite movies). I don't use that kind of language in my personal life (or my writing; I'll discuss this further down) but for DeNiro's character to use anything else completely destroys the flow of movie. The dialogue is flawlessly written for his character and somehow it just.....fits. It's not something I want my four year old watching but I find it extremely entertaining. Does it contradict my general feelings on swearing? Maybe, maybe not.

For a movie that illustrates the gratuitous, I give you the singularly awful Kevin Costner movie "Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves". Swearing was virtually nonexistent throughout the movie until near the end, when Christian Slater's character utters "Well, f*** me, he made it." It was so jarring, so out of context, so utterly unnecessary, that it transformed an already bad movie into one I have kicked myself for years for paying a dime to see.

As far as books go, I find it interesting that many of today's bestselling authors (Grisham, Sparks, Baldacci, Koontz, King - to some degree) utilize the use of swearing only lightly and, yet, are able to convey their stories in such a way that they are immensely enjoyable and satisfying. Again, the use of swearing is in context and constructive in nature. Some may say these authors are only trying to appeal to a wider audience and not "offend" the delicate sensibilities of the masses. Maybe so; in fact, I would be surprised if it was otherwise. But each of the authors above are so skillful at the craft of writing that they are still able to tell a very compelling and readable story. It's hard to argue with their success.

In my own writings, I consider it a challenge to avoid the use of swearing in dialogue. I utilize it only when absolutely necessary and central to the nature of the character in question; to leave it out would be instantly noticeable and obvious.

Just my opinion.

[maestrowork]

What is true literature if it's not offensive to some people?

[HConn]

Who is offended by Hamlet?

[susannah]

Two points:
First, from a critical standpoint, oftentimes swear words used in fiction can be used to reveal much about a character. A character's choice to use certain terms, slurs, phrases, etc, can project information that otherwise would take paragraphs of description... whether we find these terms offensive outside the realm of fiction is another issue. The truth is, these words are part of the lexicon of humanity whether we like it or not. I think it behooves any author to use whatever words they believe most accurately get across what they want to say. As much as it bothers me when people use "f---" because they can't think of anything else to say, it's similarly bothersome if people refuse to give notice to something said because "f---" is in there somewhere.

Second, anecdote, in a college writing class, we were critiquing an essay, and a student said to another: "ditch the first example, but keep the second, because it's f---ing hilarious." The professor's eyes light up, and he says to the student: "Bravo! Way to use that word correctly! It's meant to be an intensifier!" Great class. :)

Cheers,
Suz

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

I'm hearing a lot of comments to the effect of "Why should X be considered offensive, when Y isn't?"--and in some sense that's valid. But c'mon, we're writers. We should know better than anyone that a word isn't just its dictionary definition.Indeed. Imagine a sex scene in a movie, if you can bear to. ;) If one of the lovers says to the other, "F*** me now!" instead of "Take me to bed!" or "Make love to me!" doesn't it evoke a different emotional impression in the way you hear the dialogue? And might not the three different phrases suggest different styles of the sex act?

As far as swearing in real life, like many that have posted on this thread, I tend to tune out someone whose every other word is the f-bomb. Depending on the tone of voice, I either infer lazy thinking--in which case, why should I bother to exert myself to converse intelligently?--or incredible anger--in which case, why should I bother to try to communicate with someone who's not in an emotional state conducive to listening.

An exception: If their non-f-bomb words indicate intelligence worth paying attention to, or if I can see and sympathize with the cause of their anger. There are exceptions to every rule.

[three seven]

Midnight Run is a perfect case in point (and one of my favorite movies). I don't use that kind of language in my personal life (or my writing; I'll discuss this further down) but for DeNiro's character to use anything else completely destroys the flow of movie. The dialogue is flawlessly written for his character and somehow it just.....fits. It's not something I want my four year old watching but I find it extremely entertaining. Does it contradict my general feelings on swearing? Maybe, maybe not.I was hoping someone would answer that question. I agree wholeheartedly.

Oh, and Nicole: I'm reading you nice and clear now. :Thumbs:


Many excellent insights offered so far - keep 'em coming!

[maestrowork]

Cussing can be a show of intimacy, too. I don't swear when I'm with strangers, but with very close friends, I do. We know each other so well that the swear words add flavor. In my book, close friends or family also swear at each other as a way to show intimacy. In real life, I would say there are not that many people who would say "f*** me now" -- they're special people.... "Take me now" just doesn't have the same, uh, effect...

;)

[reph]

Who is offended by Hamlet?

Well, it's very violent.

[Kida Adelyne]

Interesting topic.

Ok, my opinion:

I only use swear words to express severe anger and frustration. I use them in context. I only use them infront of my friends, or by myself. I would not consider myself a frequent swearer. In fact many of my friends will stare at me when I swear an go- "Ally swore!" Why is this? I like to think it's because I have a wide enough vocabulary to be able to find the right degree of word I'm looking for, so I save the worst words for when I'm really ticked. I use the same principle in my writing.

I do not find it offencive when someone uses the F-bomb every other word. I find it distasteful, and it shows thier lack of proper communication skills. As a highschool student I put up with this quite a bit. I somtimes I feel like shouting down the hall at the people who eat lunch near us- Find a dictionary! If you are writing this type of character, I suppose it may be necessary to write, however I personally wouldn't read it, because I don't read the type of book that had that type of character in it.

[HConn]

But reph, are you offended by it?

[SRHowen]

i like the comment about the son who swears profusely and it's a comical thing. that poster has a prejudice against people who swear. i know i can trust her to a certain extent, heh heh (though, as i recall without looking back at the post, my opinion is the assertions otherwise made are pretty ignorant, no offense. at least the assertions were backed-up with examples).

The point of the post is that as with any word a writer uses, they should be used to greatest advantage. Abundant swearing with no reason (IE I hit myself with a hammer) such as the F'word before every word said is done as shock value--for the most part it is socially unacceptable, and i did say, fine if you have a character swearing because that's they sort of person they are--it was the use of swear words in author voice that will put you art a disadvantage publishing wise and readership wise.

Very few readers will reject a book because it contained no swear words, but many readers will reject one with gratuitous (note: gratuitous) swear words in it. Why take the chance on eliminating readers?

that poster has a prejudice against people who swear I can see you have never had the chance to speak with me or you wouldn't say this--but I don't use swear words to proceed every word I say. Because it does sound foolish and lower class whether the user is or not.

Shawn

[Puddle Jumper]

Cussing can be a show of intimacy, too. I don't swear when I'm with strangers, but with very close friends, I do. We know each other so well that the swear words add flavor. In my book, close friends or family also swear at each other as a way to show intimacy. In real life, I would say there are not that many people who would say "f*** me now" -- they're special people.... "Take me now" just doesn't have the same, uh, effect...

;)
I've met too many people to know it's not intimacy, but who will swear around strangers.

[maestrowork]

Because it does sound foolish and lower class whether the user is or not.

But if your character is foolish and lower-class, that would be perfect.

Remember: DO WHAT WORKS. You can't please everyone in the world. Some readers might be put off by swear words, violence, sex, sentimentality, kisses, characters who say "I love you" all the time, Christians, Muslims, smokers, hookers, fluffy toy animals... you name it. They will simply not buy and read your books. But there are many others who will, if it "works."

Dennis Lehane's Mystic River is very violent, dark, and parts of it very disturbing, and his characters swear a lot. But boy, what a gripping story, and beautiful writting. It fits the genre perfectly while giving the readers something profound to chew on. It works. Not everyone is going to rush out to Barnes & Nobles or the library to get the book. But for those who do and accept the book as what it is, it's a powerful story and a wonderful treat.

As readers, we have the right to be offended by anything, based on our culture, upbringing, religious beliefs, etc. It's our freedom of choice.

As writers, however, we shouldn't tell others what is acceptable to write and not is not. We can say, well, I choose not to write such and such. But we should not tell others "it's bad" because it doesn't fit the moral code of one particular writer. I don't write or read stories about sadistic serial killers, but you certain can write about them the way you see fit.

[Mistook]

Editorial Note: The following was written plainly, with no attempt on my part to censor the language. If it's confusing, blame the software. I do think it's a bit sad we can't discuss these words frankly, like adults.



Nearly every character in my WIP is under thirty, and most of the dialogue takes place in informal situations, so there's plenty of potential for cursing. When I started out, I was throwing in the curse words left and right because it seemed natural for the characters.

Now on the revision, I'm weeding out a lot of explatives, and tweaking the ones that remain, because it does tend to get distracting.

I've noticed I'm making a big distinction between "...****ing..." and "...****'n..." The contracted version is used more casually - meant to arouse a feeling of comaradarie. The fully articulated, "...****ing..." is used in the midst of an empassioned rant.

As and interjection, "****!" I've saved for very critical moments. The characters who use it are usually alone at the time, and gravely alarmed.

My interjections vary widely. Most people tend to say, "Oh my God!" (and in my mind, if you capitolize the "G", it's not a blasphemy, but merely an expression of awe, casually directed toward the perceived creator of the universe.)

If there are too many "Oh my God!"s going on I'll start to change it up with a "Jesus!" or a "Christ!" Again, I don't think of this as blasphemy. I'm actually a lot more worried about "Holy crap!" and "Holy ****!" because neither crap nor **** are holy, but people say these things, and when they do, they usually don't mean to suggest that feces could ever be hallowed or worshiped.

The word "***" doesn't come up much. I have yet to write a character who uses it to signify buttocks, "Would you look at that ***!" There's a few times where it's used to describe a jerk, "That guy's a real ***!" My grandmother used to say "Jackass" thinking that this made it clear she was referring to a donkey, but in my opinion, "jackass" has more impact. It sounds more cursy.

Of course, the most potent form is "***-hole" and again, it's reserved for very special occasions.

Hmmmm... I could go on and on with this couldn't I?

Oh well, you get my point.

[reph]

But reph, are you offended by it?

Not exactly. I can't say I'm exactly offended by swearwords, either, unless they're part of a verbal assault on me. I'll get offended if someone calls me something. A character who swears in a book isn't talking to me.

What was the point about Hamlet?

[HConn]

I offered it as a counter-example to the assertion that a work of literature should offend someone.

[maestrowork]

I didn't say it "should" offend. I'd say "will/would" is a better term. Besides, it was a question.

I'd say true literature would offend someone. Hamlet would offend those who abhore violence. Romeo and Juliet would offend someone who's against suicide. I'm sure Catcher in the Rye offended a number of people. And what about Lolita? Don't even mention Lord of the Flies. The Color Purple probably upset a few people, too...

[Hang of Thursdays]

I didn't say it "should" offend. I'd say "will/would" is a better term. Besides, it was a question.

I'd say true literature would offend someone. Hamlet would offend those who abhore violence. Romeo and Juliet would offend someone who's against suicide. I'm sure Catcher in the Rye offended a number of people. And what about Lolita? Don't even mention Lord of the Flies. The Color Purple probably upset a few people, too...

But all you're really proving is that people are easily offended, not that offensiveness is the mark of great literature. The Da Vinci Code offended a good number of Catholics and Protestants, but I doubt that anyone would mark that as Great Literature.

Beowulf is regarded as great literature, and offends no one, except the majority of high school students, who don't understand its relevance.

Moby Dick is also regarded as great literature, and both my mother and grandmother approve of me reading it. Even if it does offend them that I read it at the dinner table.

Perhaps what you're REALLY trying to say is that great literature challenges us, which is not exactly the same thing as saying that great literature will offend.

[Birol]

Perhaps what you're REALLY trying to say is that great literature challenges us, which is not exactly the same thing as saying that great literature will offend.



I don't think great literature challenges us as much as it creates an emotional response in the reader. That response can be positive in that it produces laughter or provides the reader with a sense of well-being or it can be negative, producing emotions such as sadness, guilt, regret, or anger.

Some individuals do not respond as well to the negative emotions and take the reaction personally. Rather than enjoying the artist's skill in tapping into those emotions, they attack the work. Because of those attacks, the works that inspire those feelings get the most publicity.

Just my theory.

[TashaGoddard]

I think the point is more that all literature will offend someone. Some people will be offended by strong language, some people will be offended by a lack of strong language (e.g. feel patronised), some people will be offended by violence, some people will be offended by sex, some people will be offended by schmaltzy (sp?) romantic happy endings (e.g. unrealistic?). There are more than 6 billion people in the world and every single one of them is different. It would be impossible to write something that would please all the people in the world.

Or maybe that wasn't the point?

[Hang of Thursdays]

I don't think great literature challenges us as much as it creates an emotional response in the reader. That response can be positive in that it produces laughter or provides the reader with a sense of well-being or it can be negative, producing emotions such as sadness, guilt, regret, or anger.

Some individuals do not respond as well to the negative emotions and take the reaction personally. Rather than enjoying the artist's skill in tapping into those emotions, they attack the work. Because of those attacks, the works that inspire those feelings get the most publicity.

Just my theory.

I think it does both. It can challenge our emotions, our perceptions, our thoughts on spelling and punctuation, on dramtic form, etc. But "challenge" need not equate to "offend".

I think the point is more that all literature will offend someone.

Ray (maestrowork) specifically said "true literature" [will/should] offend. So, with all due respect, that's all I'm addressing, here.

But your point that everyone will be offended by something is a good one, and points out why the "true literature will/should offend" angle doesn't work, in my opinion. It's simply not a good barometer. Like I noted, The Da Vinci Code offends, John Sandford's Secret Prey particularly offended one little old lady (she wrote a letter) cause it was littered with obscenities. Neither of those books are "true literature" (whatever that is). They're through-and-through genre novels. So if genre novels can offend, and "true literature" can offend, then you haven't found a good metric.

[reph]

Moby Dick is also regarded as great literature, and both my mother and grandmother approve of me reading it.

And Moby Dick would offend...uh, Greenpeace, right?

[maestrowork]

Perhaps what you're REALLY trying to say is that great literature challenges us, which is not exactly the same thing as saying that great literature will offend.

Perhaps. But there's a thin line between "challenge" and "offend," I think. A thinking man would be challenged -- and he would think about the issues and understand them and perhaps even embrace them, for true literature speaks of true human nature, and the universal truth, whether the readers agree or not. But an emotional reader would take offense, as Birol mentioned, without accepting the fact that the fictional accounts were nothing personal. I mean, just because you and your mother/grandmother accepted Moby Dick did not mean someone out there was not offended by it (say, the theme of killing a whale!) For example, someone here did a report (I think) on Lolita for her high school class. It's not to say some high schools wouldn't ban the book! It sure was banned years ago.

I think my point was, true writers shouldn't worry too much what if someone's offended by their works. A writer should be allowed to express herself the way she sees and feels it. The work might not be accepted by the moral majority, but the writer should not censor herself because of fear of rejection. Violence, sex, bad language, child abuse, homosexuality, religious "blasphemy," perversions, etc. etc. If they serve the story, then tell it the way the story deserves. As readers, we have the right to choose not to read them. As writers, we also should have the right to choose to write them.

[Medievalist]

I'd say true literature would offend someone. Hamlet would offend those who abhore violence. Romeo and Juliet would offend someone who's against suicide. I'm sure Catcher in the Rye offended a number of people. And what about Lolita? Don't even mention Lord of the Flies. The Color Purple probably upset a few people, too...

I suspect you realize that all of these are "banned" in terms of teaching, or placement in a library at many, many schools. I should mention that Merchant of Venice, and Huckleberry Finn are both banned as well. Huckleberry Finn is banned because it uses the word "******." The context, and reasons for that use, are completely ignored. That's a crime in itself. (Twain used the word very deliberately and carefully. He didn't do it lightly or with malice.) I'm willing to bet that in fifty years it becomes the most offensive word for any person to use regarding another person, much like bastard was a few centuries ago.

I don't personally cuss very often; I never did until a few years ago. But I also object to people verbally tip toeing around saying a word. Not saying the word invests it with power. I do use "swear words" when I teach, but only because I'm teaching about the history of the word. Many of the "forbidden" words were the standard words used in everyday non-offensive conversation. There were no other words. I refuse to be coy about it. You try teaching Chaucer or Dunbar or Shakespeare without being bawdy.

In writing, be true to your characters. Use the language they use. Don't use offensive language, or pompous language, or erudite terms, for effect; use them because the character would. Be aware that you may offend some readers--but they're probably not people who would read your book anyway, because they'd be offended . . . there's a tautology for you!

[maestrowork]

But your point that everyone will be offended by something is a good one, and points out why the "true literature will/should offend" angle doesn't work, in my opinion. It's simply not a good barometer. Like I noted, The Da Vinci Code offends, John Sandford's Secret Prey particularly offended one little old lady (she wrote a letter) cause it was littered with obscenities. Neither of those books are "true literature" (whatever that is). They're through-and-through genre novels. So if genre novels can offend, and "true literature" can offend, then you haven't found a good metric.

There's a flaw in this logic. The old "if all A is C, then all C is A" fallacy. The logic of "all true literature will offend *someone*" doesn't mean "all stories that offend someone are *true* literature." Nor does it mean "all true literature will offend everyone."

[Sailor Kenshin]

how many of you guys are actually offended by strong language, and why?


I am.

Life's too short to wallow in the gutter.

A more important question might be, why aren't you offended? Someone who uses foul language makes a set of assumptions about your background and upbringing. Why not assume otherwise?

[HConn]

A more important question might be, why aren't you offended? Someone who uses foul language makes a set of assumptions about your background and upbringing.

What assumptions do they make? Specifically? I'm curious about your answer.

I'm not offended by foul language because life is too short to sweat the small stuff. And because foul language, in the proper context, can be beautiful.

[Medievalist]

A more important question might be, why aren't you offended? Someone who uses foul language makes a set of assumptions about your background and upbringing. Why not assume otherwise?

I know my own worth; they may not know theirs, and quite frankly, a lot of people truly don't know any better. Really, they don't. It's normal language for them. I've had to take people aside and explain to them that:

1. They are presenting themselves as crude, ignorant, and even vicious.

2. Their language is not acceptable, and it both offends and hurts other people.

3. They are using filler words in the form of swear words, and it makes them sound stupid because the way they are using the words, they lack all meaning.

[katiemac]

This is an interesting topic. I'm at an age group where all of these swear words are incorporated into all dialogue at a daily basis, whether or not it's used as adjective, noun, etc.

It doesn't bother me. It's to the point where, whenever these words pop up, they don't have meaning anymore. I think in my age group, these words don't have the same meanings as they used to, and now I don't understand words as being "swears." What makes a word anything but what it is? How did people come to associate these as "taboo" in the first place? They're merely another set of consonants and vowels.

It's culture, not ignorance or stupidity.

That being said, I don't curse often, and I definitely don't do it around people I don't know because I don't want to accidentally offend. I realize the generation gap - the culture gap - and don't want to step on anyone's toes.

[Ali B]

I am.

Life's too short to wallow in the gutter.

A more important question might be, why aren't you offended? Someone who uses foul language makes a set of assumptions about your background and upbringing. Why not assume otherwise?

:Wha: I think to be offended by something as small as someone's choice of words is to be childish. I tend to get offended by things that matter.
These days no one judges another by his use of cuss words. It's 2005 after all and I'm not wearing a corset.

[detante]

Swear words tend to be modifiers. They should be treated as such. Use them. Don't abuse them.
:guns:

[Ali B]

I know my own worth; they may not know theirs, and quite frankly, a lot of people truly don't know any better. Really, they don't. It's normal language for them. I've had to take people aside and explain to them that:

1. They are presenting themselves as crude, ignorant, and even vicious.

2. Their language is not acceptable, and it both offends and hurts other people.

3. They are using filler words in the form of swear words, and it makes them sound stupid because they way they are using the words, they lack all meaning.

That seems kind of arrogant, doesn't it? Who made you the person that should enlighten all the "people truly don't know any better?" The fact is that everyone knows better and they don't need people preaching at them about their choices. Remember choices?
You offend them just as much as they are offending you and I find that petty.

[Sailor Kenshin]

I tend to get offended by things that matter.


Words matter. If you didn't believe that, you wouldn't be a writer.

[maestrowork]

I am.

Life's too short to wallow in the gutter.

A more important question might be, why aren't you offended? Someone who uses foul language makes a set of assumptions about your background and upbringing. Why not assume otherwise?

Life's too short to make assumptions and judge people based on those assumptions.

[lANTERNjACK o'tRUMPETmARSH]

the high prince of the obscure polysyllabic, if profanity is the sign of diminished intelligence, what was his excuse for resorting to epithets, he wisely plumbed and paraphrased a famous playwright in saying, "Knowing the right word to use at the right time."

Hope this helps.

Laters

[Medievalist]

That seems kind of arrogant, doesn't it? Who made you the person that should enlighten all the "people truly don't know any better?" The fact is that everyone knows better and they don't need people preaching at them about their choices. Remember choices?
You offend them just as much as they are offending you and I find that petty.

First, no, they really don't know any better. Some of them are very new to English, and hear offensive language constantly. Some of them are native speakers but don't even think about their words being offensive to others because they're surrounded by it.

It may be arrogant, but it's also the nature of life; I'm their superviser. It's my job to tell them they can't use offensive and inappropriate language, that it's not OK to refer to a customer as a "skinny *****," either to her face or behind her back. Whether or not malice is intended, the customer will probably be offended. It's much better for me take the employee aside and explain (privately) what is and isn't acceptable, than it is for my boss to tell fire them because of customer complaints.

[Medievalist]

:Wha: I think to be offended by something as small as someone's choice of words is to be childish. I tend to get offended by things that matter.
These days no one judges another by his use of cuss words. It's 2005 after all and I'm not wearing a corset.

I disagree; you might want to do a little research on "hate speech."

In addition, there are still laws on the books in many states about swearing. You can be arrested for cussing in public. That means a student can be arrested, for instance, on a university campus, for any number of relatively common vituperative suggestions.

[MacAllister]

These days no one judges another by his use of cuss words. It's 2005 after all and I'm not wearing a corset.

I judge people on their word choice all the time, quite frankly. A few months ago, we had a heated battle over in SYW regarding the use of the word "n*gger" in a short story that a young man posted.

Words matter. And expletives reveal a great deal about the speaker. If someone says, "Bugger off, you wanker!" That gives an informed reader a great deal of background, right there.

And if someone calls me an "f-ing b*tch" at work--you can bet I'm going to make some judgements.

[HConn]

:Shrug:

I--and others, I note--have been defending the use of swearing because it can be perfectly acceptable in the right context.

Others have been criticizing it because it is inappropriate in many contexts--for instance, at work.

People keep trying to frame the discussion to their own benefit. I want to ask both sides: Would you include foul language in a scene set among inmates during a prison riot? Would you include foul language in a scene populated with modern American soldiers who had just been captured by the enemy? Would you include foul language at a Victorian social? At a meeting among archbishops at the Vatican?

It comes down to context. I personally don't care if the members of this board curse their ****ing heads off, or if they fan themselves daintily because some ruffian laborer shouted "Consarn it!" I do care if people can write in a way that's truthful.

I'm also hoping that Sailor Kenshin will answer my question upthread.

[maestrowork]

To me, calling someone a "f***ing b--ch" is different than saying "f*** yeah!" It's also how you say it. Calling someone a "son of a b--ch" can be either degrading or endearing, depending who and how, and like HConn said, when and in what context.

[MacAllister]

Would you include foul language in a scene set among inmates during a prison riot? Would you include foul language in a scene populated with modern American soldiers who had just been captured by the enemy? Would you include foul language at a Victorian social? At a meeting among archbishops at the Vatican?


heh--thank you for bringing us back 'round to the actual point, HConn. <g>

To address your specific questions:

Would you include foul language in a scene set among inmates during a prison riot? yep--because the characters would use it


Would you include foul language in a scene populated with modern American soldiers who had just been captured by the enemy? yep--because the characters would use it. See above.

Would you include foul language at a Victorian social? I would look for Victorian-era expletives, if the scene called for cursing. For example, Mr. Smith, who imbibed too much cognac after dinner, mistakes Mr. Jones' polite attentiveness to Mrs. Smith as something more...


At a meeting among archbishops at the Vatican?
That would depend entirely on the scene and context--see the above Victorian example.

But yes. I would use the words. Even writing for young adults, S.E. Hinton used swear words, framed in the proper context, with good results. I LOVED those books, when I was a kid. They felt true.

[Richard]

If someone says, "Bugger off, you wanker!" That gives an informed reader a great deal of background, right there.

Yes, usually that the writer's an American trying to write a British character ;-)

[Denis Castellan]

In writing, be true to your characters. Use the language they use. Don't use offensive language, or pompous language, or erudite terms, for effect; use them because the character would.
After reading the whole thread again, I'll keep this as a good conclusion.

If you tried not to offend anyone, you'd end up removing offensive language, religious references, murders, rapes, meat eaters (...) from your stories.

Then your readers would probably feel offended by the price your book was sold.

[MacAllister]

Yes, usually that the writer's an American trying to write a British character ;-) :ROFL:

But at least we know the character is supposedly a Brit...heh.



*disclaimer: I've never used "bugger off, you wanker" in any piece of fiction...

[Canada James]

If I want a cuss-free book, I'll go in the YA or Christian section.

You must be talking about Junior YA, because YA (teen) has more swearing than most sailors can do in a day. One of the first things I was told to do with my novel (YA) was to go through it and "make them talk like teens." I got the "you're a very polite fellow. Your characters are not" speech. However, I did maintain that my novel would *not* take the Lord's name in vain and my publisher respected that.


Personally, I almost never swear. Therefore when I do it makes a *point*.

Canada James

[Hang of Thursdays]

There's a flaw in this logic. The old "if all A is C, then all C is A" fallacy. The logic of "all true literature will offend *someone*" doesn't mean "all stories that offend someone are *true* literature."

But that's what I'm getting at -- that's why it's not a good system, if it's not universally true. Of course, I think "literary" elements can be found in genre novels, and vice versa, and that they can build off of each other and make the work as a whole stronger, so I'm not really interested in finding a good metric. Just so, you know, this conversation doesn't go off on another tangent.

Nor does it mean "all true literature will offend everyone."

not what i said. But that's what you seemed to say, until you clarified yourself (a clarification that I agree with, btw)

[Mistook]

I just wanted to say that I saw the movie "8 Mile" on TV yesterday, and they silenced out all the curse words. It really killed the movie, especially the climactic scene where Eminem is winning the rap contest. Half of what he said was missing. The flow of his rap was ruined, and I was taken out of the moment over and over trying to figure out what curse word he'd just used.

They may as well have just not played the movie, because for those of us who were interested, the experience was destroyed. Meanwhile, the type of people who would want the expletives deleted were almost assuredly not watching.

I never went to see the movie in the theatre, because at that time I felt somehow threatened by Eminem. I didn't know much about him except that he was this scary man doing a lot of cursing and swearing.

I've slowly warmed up to him over the years, to the point where I'd say I'm a fan, and in the process I've learned that when you avoid certain artists or artworks in order to "save" yourself from being offended, you just might be missing out on something worthwhile.

Cursing has a lot of power, but it doesn't have the power to make a bad story good. It also doesn't make a good story bad. Cursing is what it is. It's one more fact of reality, and it has it's place in the universe.

[MacAllister]

That's how I felt over the controversy about airing "Saving Private Ryan"--if you're going to show it, and admit it has merit--don't friggin' CENSOR it...

[maestrowork]

I know... what's the point of showing a movie like Saving Private Ryan or 8 Miles and bleep out every swear word? It ruins the movies.

[Hang of Thursdays]

That's how I felt over the controversy about airing "Saving Private Ryan"--if you're going to show it, and admit it has merit--don't friggin' CENSOR it...

That really ticked me off, and it angered a good number of veterans in Dallas. The affiliate there opted to show Striptease, instead.

[three seven]

If someone says, "Bugger off, you wanker!" That gives an informed reader a great deal of background, right there.
Yes, usually that the writer's an American trying to write a British character ;-)
Quite. To the vast majority in Britain "Bugger off" just isn't swearing any more, but rather signals the end of a friendly exchange: "Right, go on, bugger off, my boss'll be back in a minute."

I'd say it's become so prevalent that swearing is a matter of tone rather than words, and I don't believe that it's entirely a bad thing because as it devalues itself through over-use, so it strengthens the words it's intended to replace. "F*ck off," for example, has many meanings, certainly in Britain:

- "Seriously, it was this big."
"F*ck off was it!" (I don't believe you)

- "He turns up in this great big f*ck-off Merc." (It was probably an S-class)

- "I'm going to get done quickly and f*ck off down the pub." (It's Friday afternoon / The football's on and they've got a big screen)

So by the time it comes to mean Go Away, it just doesn't carry the same weight as "I'm sorry but I'd like you to leave."


Another thing I'd like to throw up is the question of terms which, taken at the sum of their parts, are inherently offensive, but which either convey a very specific meaning or sentiment with no 'clean' alternative (media whore; get your sh*t together) or which are intended as an expression of respect. For example, if someone said I was a bad person or called me a motherf***er, I might be a little upset; if, however, they said "Dude, you are one baaad motherf***er" I'd feel like Shaft.

?

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

If someone says, "Bugger off, you wanker!" That gives an informed reader a great deal of background, right there.Why do I suddenly have the voices of Bob and Doug McKenzie (and possibly Geddy Lee) in my head?

"Take off, you hoser!"

[BradyH1861]

I just wanted to say that I saw the movie "8 Mile" on TV yesterday, and they silenced out all the curse words.

Personally, I wish they would silence M&M or however he spells his name. He is the root of all that is evil...in my ever so humble East Texas opinion. Him and P-Diddy or whatever his name is this week.

I'm a big rap fan, can you tell?


Brady H.

[Elizabeth]

I haven't read this thread in its entirety, so I'm sure that this point has been made before.

The question of profanity all comes down to the characters. Do the characters swear? Then it's in your book. Seems like a very cut and dried issue to me. Nuances of when and how much aren't something that I'm going to think about all that much.

That said, it helps to be aware of how jarring it can be. I swear a bit myself, and some of that found its way into the first issue of my zine, PLATFORM (non-fiction, by the way). I look at it now and cringe. But. I just recently finished up the most excellent THE SUMMER COUNTRY, by James A. Hetley. There's a ton of swearing in it, and let me tell you -- I grew up in Maine, right from the same area that he used as the basis for his fictional town, and he got it *right*. Like it or not, that's how people talk.

It all gets down to the characters.

[Maryn]

Elizabeth, I have read the whole thread and a lot of the people don't seem to get it. But you do.

It isn't about whether the author takes offense at certain words and phrases, or taking the use of his/her deity's name in vain, or at certain gestures or acts. Authors can have whatever standards they like in their real lives, with no argument from me even though my own might be different.

What it comes down to is whether those words and behaviors are appropriate for the characters the author has created. If they're right, they belong there, and their omission will substantially weaken the work.

I respect that some of us might wish to craft characters who do not use coarse language, curse, and so on. I suspect that in some genres, that makes your manuscript a hard sell, but so be it. However, when the author crafts characters who should use crude language and swear but don't, the manuscript becomes an impossible sell--and quite rightly.

Maryn

[maestrowork]

It isn't about whether the author takes offense at certain words and phrases, or taking the use of his/her deity's name in vain, or at certain gestures or acts. Authors can have whatever standards they like in their real lives, with no argument from me even though my own might be different.

But it does seem like a lot of authors make the decision based on their own personal preference, feelings and moral code, and not the characters or the readers. Granted, if you're writing for a children's book you probably wouldn't use profanty... then again, how many children books deal with inner city gang members or chain-smoking detectives or down-and-out hookers? And the demographics of the readers dictate that, too -- then again, if you're writing a novel for the Christian readers, you're probably not writing about detectives and hookers...

Methinks if you do something like "the gangster swore under his breath" you're backing off from the truth. You're telling instead of showing (I mean, what is "swearing" -- which word did he actually use? The s-word? The f-word? The c-word? What?) As writers, we need to be true, even though we're telling stories (lies). If you can't let your junkie character swear (if he's the kind of character that does), then maybe you shouldn't be writing about that character. Write something light and happy and PG! (Sorry if it sounds harsh, but I'm passionate about this subject.)

I think sometimes writers have problems separating their real lives with their work. In a sense, your work is an extension of yourself, and some readers may think you and your work represent the same thing (like Stephen King really is this twisted, psychotic, evil dude?)... At the same time, just because your chain-smoking detective character swears like a sailor doesn't mean you do the same in real life. We need to be able to make that separation.

I do agree about "enough is enough" -- once you establish the fact that the character swears, you don't have to use the f-word every three or four words. It becomes repetitive and simply... poor writing.

[ZaZ]

I find these ****in' asterisks offensive.

[Medievalist]

I find these ****in' asterisks offensive.

Agreed. But I suspect that it's the appropriate decision for Jenna to make.

And now, for linguistic trivia!

There's a feature of certain "older" Indo-European languages called "infixes."
Suffixes are added to the end of words (like -s to make a plural noun), prefixes to the beginnings of words (like re- before repeat and return) and infixes are added to the middle of words.

The only infix in English is derived from the *ficken. As in

"That's in-****ing-credible."

Aren't you glad you know that?

[Maryn]

Actually, I'm delighted to know about infixes.

Isn't language grand?

Maryn

[maestrowork]

Famous infix:

"Abso-***king-lutely."
-- Mr. Big, Sex and the City

[ZaZ]

I'll tell ya what needs an infix. My melon and this hangover.

[Maryn]

Methinks that saying "the gangster swore under his breath" is not only chickening out, but is telling instead of showing. **** that, y'know?

Maryn

[Dev]

Methinks that saying "the gangster swore under his breath" is not only chickening out, but is telling instead of showing. **** that, y'know?

Maryn

Maryn,
I agree that it may be a cop out, but maybe (from whatever POV) the gangster's actual words weren't discernible...but you know he's cussing. On the whole, though, I agree. In reading, if a character swears really fluently, I don't want the writer to censor him.

--Dev

[reph]

The only infix in English is derived from the *ficken. As in

"That's in-****ing-credible."

Aren't you glad you know that?
Abso-goddamn-lutely!

Quite. To the vast majority in Britain "Bugger off" just isn't swearing any more, but rather signals the end of a friendly exchange: "Right, go on, bugger off, my boss'll be back in a minute."

I'd say it's become so prevalent that swearing is a matter of tone rather than words...
So, if you want to maintain realism but you aspire to reach a trans-Atlantic audience, you have to write: Colin turned to face Nigel. 'Ooh, ya bugger, there's a bit of lint on yer f***in' jacket,' he said, but not in a bad way, like he was being vulgar or anything.

?

[three seven]

That wasn't what I said. "You bugger" tends to be used as a familiar and friendly alternative to "you just did something naughty/annoying/that hurt a bit, but I'm not that bothered and will probably laugh about it later, if I'm not already."
"Bugger off" is a familiar way of saying "stop it, that's annoying," "I enjoyed our chat but I need to get on with some work or I'll be here all night" or "stop teasing, cheeky." It's only usually used as a swear if you're the Duke of Edinburgh and somebody's listening - if they're not listening then, like the rest of the upper classes, most of your sentences will begin with an F.
'Wanker,' on the other hand, is considered offensive - somewhere between 'tw*t' and 'c***.'

Any questions?

[Mistook]

Hey, what's the status of "bloody" these days?

[three seven]

Not as fashionable as it once was, not desperately offensive but still considered impolite.

[pdr]

Out in my wild colonial home - that's Australasia - damn, bastard, bloody and bugger are simply adjectives along with beaut! Sh*t is what those damned sheep and cows do a lot of on the drive and the grass, and nobody turns a hair using the word. However the infamous f word which is used all the time by the young - thanks to American rap artists - still has an offensive meaning for older people as to us to f*** someone means a brutal gang rape.

It seems that when the words lose their frightening or offensive meanings then they are not offensive any more.

As for writing, if your character is one who would swear then s/he does. I wish I could remember the name of the Dick Francis book ('Survival'?)where one of the characters swore a lot. Francis handled it really well and made the character seem quite pathetic and ineffectual. Nice bit of writing.

[Medievalist]

What's the shock value, comparatively speaking, between "sod off," and "bugger off"?

[three seven]

Out in my wild colonial home - that's Australasia - damn, bastard, bloody and bugger are simply adjectives
A lot like my home.

What's the shock value, comparatively speaking, between "sod off," and "bugger off"?
They're basically interchangeable. Put it this way: neither would make my grandmother tut like, say, "Piss off" would.

[Mistook]

Medievalist,

I heard once that the original meaning of "f**k" was something about poking seeds into the dirt with a stick. In other word's people would go into the fields and f**k the ground... or f**k the seeds into the ground.

Can you set the record straight?

[three seven]

From 15th Century English fuc ken (one word); to strike, move quickly, or penetrate. Possibly, but probably not related to Germanic ficken, meaning basically the same thing.
And definitely not acronymic, as has been theorised in the past (For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge; Fornication Under Consent of the King etc etc)

[HConn]

Methinks that saying "the gangster swore under his breath" is not only chickening out, but is telling instead of showing. **** that, y'know?

Maryn

Sometimes telling instead of showing is just what a writer needs.

I don't mind "He swore a blue streak" or "He expressed his anger with word that would have made my grandmother faint." That still works.

[Medievalist]

Medievalist,

I heard once that the original meaning of "f**k" was something about poking seeds into the dirt with a stick. In other word's people would go into the fields and f**k the ground... or f**k the seeds into the ground.

Can you set the record straight?

We don't actually know; there aren't enough early attestations. The first recorded attestation, until recently* was in code (http://www.bartleby.com/61/95/F0349500.html).

The OED offers this etymology:

[Early mod.E f??k, f?k, answering to a ME. type *fukenficken cannot be shown to be related.] (wk. vb.) not found; ulterior etym. unknown. Synonymous G.

The venerable and quite wonderful Calvert Watkins hypothesized in a lecture once that there is a "missing" proto-I.E. *ficken that is unrelated to the Germanic ficken (see OED above) associated with "poking" but that the two unrelated words affected each other because of people poking people for the sake of poking.




*I found a new one! My first OED credit, and no, mom won't be proud <g>

[Mistook]

That's fascinating!

So maybe f**k means to poke, and fick means to pick.

F*ckenficken might mean "poking and picking"?

---wait, I'm having an epiphany---

And then the "poke" word became the evil brother, so does speak, because poking has it's rude sexual connotations. Meanwhile the "Pick" word died in shame and penury.

That ought to tell you the value of a curse word right there!

They live longer :)

[Denis Castellan]

In other word's people would go into the fields and f**k the ground...

now that sounds strange... I guess a time-traveller would hear lots of surprising things..

[Bud Rudesill]

I took my first literature survey course from Ed Dorn, a Greenwich Village beatnik in his first year of teaching at Idaho State. He was one of the best of the poets of the last century. To bring the course squarely into the twentieth century he read aloud from Allen Ginsberg’s Howl, which was mostly four letter words. He made the point that the flowery words that Walt Whitman used to describe the view he had of America was hardly appropriate for the description of a NY ghetto. He was censored, because of a complaining student, for using that language in the classroom, but his point wasn’t lost on me. You have to use the language of the people you are trying to bring to life on your pages. Many of the people I know, the ones I want to write about, use profanity (including myself) and you have to use that language to write about them. If it is offensive to some, well, they can ignore a large section of the population of our country and pretend they don’t exist, such as Richard Nixon, John Kennedy, and Lyndon Johnson. Or maybe you want to describe certain things which happened in the oval office during Bill Clinton’s tenure.

You can be polite or you can tell the story as it might have really been. There is emotion in those words. They are not the only words that convey emotion, but they can hardly be realistically ignored. Look at how exciting the love scenes in the romance novels in the grocery store are.

[jdkiggins]

Ok, I'm finding this interesting. Can anyone tell me why they find these words offensive when used in general speech, and not as an insult or threat?

Every cuss word I know I learned from my father. He wasn't an ignorant or unintelligent, obnoxious person at all. But you sure knew when he was angry. And he never said the really foul words in front of my mom.

Cussing in books doesn't bother me. Cussing in general speech doesn't bother me. What I find offensive, and this happened just this morning, is when a young woman (between 20-25) stopped her car, cell phone stuck to her ear, got out, looked at me and my 81-year-old mother as we crossed the street and screamed at us to get the F off the road.

It's one thing to swear, and it's another to swear when you're angry. But don't you dare show disrespect like that in front of my mother!

Nuff said. I'm going to check out the new smilies. :)

Obviously, I only read the first page of this thread. :roll:
Joanne

[Fractured_Chaos]

Does swearing get your back up, or do you consider it a valid way of expressing your intent? Is the TV version of Midnight Run as funny as the uncut version? Would Reservoir Dogs have been better if they all called each other sweetheart?

Swearing doesn't bother me, unless it's being used directly -at- me. But that's another story. Otherwise, swear words are just words. They are used to express thought and feeling. I'm of the opinion that using swear words constantly does mena you have limited yourself in the manner you express yourself, but when telling a story, swearing is often a good tool to illustrate a character. OTOH, if the writer uses alot of swaer words, alot of the time, and especially when it's not necessary, it says something to me about the writer.

And, to get to the actual point, Is protecting the delicate sensibilities of the easily-offended more important than portraying realistic characters?

Not only no, but HELL no. If I have a character who cusses, I am -not- going to use "darn", "golly-gee-whillikers", or the like. It would be cheating, IMO. People cuss. Certain characters are more believable if they cuss. I want my characters to believable, and if that means someone gets a little offended by the character, then so be it. If I get letters scolding me for the behaviour of a -character-, then I know I've done my job.

Edit, because my spelling leaves much to be desired today.:o

[jdkiggins]

Now that I've read more of the thread...

I wouldn't be a Stephen King fan if cussing by characters offended me.

[Wandering Sensei]

"But orcs and trolls spoke as they would, without love of words or things; and their language was actually more degraded and filthy than I have shown it. I do not suppose that any will wish for a closer rendering, though models are easy to find. Much of the same sort of talk can still be heard among the orc-minded; dreary and repetitive with hatred and contempt, too long removed from good to retain even verbal vigour, save in the ears of those to whom only the squalid sounds strong." --J.R.R. Tolkien


Bravo, professor.

:Thumbs:

I'm from the meaner streets of Chicago myself. I've heard it all, and I use quite a bit of it. It doesn't bother me a whole lot EXCEPT when it's excessive--the persons involved don't seem to know many other words--or when it's used as an insult, especially if the insults are aimed at me.

If a guy running for a bus misses it and says, "oh, f****** s***!" that's one thing. I can understand that. I've done the same. If, OTOH, the guy screams at me, "you f****** s***!" that's something entirely different, and I take offense.

If the swear words are in context, then they should remain, although they could be toned down. There are ways around being utterly verbatim. How many gangbangers would say, "oh you silly excrement brain!" But if you want the words to have an effect on the readers, then keep them back until they're needed.

Same with anything that has shock value. Use it too much too soon and it just starts getting boring and annoying.

[Wandering Sensei]

There are some places where I absolutely don't use swear words. The office, for one. I may say "crap," or "damn," but even then rarely. And you absolutely do not EVER cuss in the dojo. It shows disrespect to the dojo, the art, your sensei, and to your fellow students. Since I do tend to cuss a lot, sometimes I really have to bite my tongue (and that hurts!). If you do cuss or show disrespect, you end up doing pushups till the cows come home.

[Medievalist]

That ought to tell you the value of a curse word right there!

They live longer :)

They do, actually. Taboo words, that is the things you are really not supposed to say, are the words everyone has to know, so they don't say them. They are thus articificially preserved.

[azbikergirl]

Critters of my 'medievalish' fantasy novel almost always comment on my inclusion of certain 'swear' words (the F word, for instance), thinking they are too modern. What the critters don't realize is how old those words are. At least, according to OED online.

[reph]

They do, actually. Taboo words, that is the things you are really not supposed to say, are the words everyone has to know, so they don't say them. They are thus articificially preserved.
And yet, and yet –
Did anyone learn those words from a list given by a kindly old authority figure as a form of instruction in what not to say?

[Medievalist]

And yet, and yet –
Did anyone learn those words from a list given by a kindly old authority figure as a form of instruction in what not to say?

No, but they are marked. In speech, people will often apologize for swearing, we hear people being chastized for swearing, and kids write swears on walls because they know they'll get a powerful reaction. Older kids teach them to the younger kids on the playground. Movies are censored. Children's dictionaries omit them. There are alll kinds of indications that This Is Special Language.

These are marked, and even ritualized, words.

And in ESL classes, yes, they sometimes give out lists. Really!

[Fictionalizer]

What about the history of cuss words? I'm curious to find out when they came about and why. More important though, I think the use of cuss words by a character is also influenced by the era they are in. In the 50's, cuss words weren't heard (and accepted) as they are today. What about in the 1300's?
This link might help.

Definition, Linguistics, Acronyms, Origin, etc. of F--- (http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/****)

I found these examples at the site:
"F---ing f--- those f---ing f---ers!" ("Forget about those very disliked people.")
"F---ing f---er's f---ing f---ed!" ("It is broken.")

I started to read a novel with almost as much swearing. I got bored with the repetitive swear words. I literally threw the book in the dumpster after the third chapter. The author is a current "best seller".

[Mistook]

There are some places where I absolutely don't use swear words. The office, for one. I may say "crap," or "damn," but even then rarely. And you absolutely do not EVER cuss in the dojo. It shows disrespect to the dojo, the art, your sensei, and to your fellow students. Since I do tend to cuss a lot, sometimes I really have to bite my tongue (and that hurts!). If you do cuss or show disrespect, you end up doing pushups till the cows come home.


Maybe disrespect is at the heart of why cuss words are taboo. Probably in most instances, the words really are used to convey some lack of respect. Even at a party, among friends, people curse casually out of a sense that all in the room are equals, so nobody has the right to feel offended. Also the event itself is of no great consequence - not like being at work or in a class.

Two or three people so far have said that they don't mind curses unless they are the recipient, which again would boil down to disrespect.

To show disrespect to another person in ways that do not employ curse words, will often result in that person uttering a curse word back at you, or wanting to.

[Mistook]

can anybody think of any hand gestures besides "the finger" that amount to curses?


The only one I can think of off the top of my head is thumbing your nose, but to me that seems pretty tame.

[Fictionalizer]

But it does seem like a lot of authors make the decision based on their own personal preference, feelings and moral code, and not the characters or the readers. ... As writers, we need to be true, even though we're telling stories (lies). ... I think sometimes writers have problems separating their real lives with their work.

I am a Christian writing about characters who swear and whose lives are completely different than mine. The MC swears the most but not all the time. He's been punished for too much swearing. His usual punishment? A bar of soap shoved into his mouth. ;) But that doesn't always "cure" him.:D

[James D. Macdonald]

can anybody think of any hand gestures besides "the finger" that amount to curses?


There's always the "fig."

Sure, I can think of several. But these are all culture specific.

==============

Update:

Woo! A link! (http://www.ooze.com/finger/html/forward.html)

[Medievalist]

"Do you bite your thumb at me sir?"

Yeah, very much culture specific. Don't make the fore-finger and thumb OK gesture in parts of South America, or Germany.

Using the left hand is frowned upon in much of the Middle East; almost anything done with it can be offensive.

[oswann]

I am a Christian writing about characters who swear and whose lives are completely different than mine. The MC swears the most but not all the time. He's been punished for too much swearing. His usual punishment? A bar of soap shoved into his mouth. ;) But that doesn't always "cure" him.:D


I'm the opposite. I'm your run of the mill heathen, however my characters don't swear. It's not that they are particularly righteous or morally superior, it just doesn't feel right to have them express themselves this way. I'm thinking of the MC and the major recurring characters of course. Maybe I'll throw in someone with a foul mouth just to see what happens.

Os.

[Liam Jackson]

In some "high brow" occupations, certain swear words are considered adjectives, adverbs, and the occasional noun. In fact, I've been called a smug bastard** by two US District Judges, both of whom were well educated and well read. Both were also also well-qualified to know a smug bastard when they saw one. (Yes, I had a nifty comeback for the first judge that swore me out after first swearing me in. He also broke me from the habit of saying, "Takes one to know one, yer honor...sir")

**(no particualar reference to my lineage, but rather my genteel demeanor on the stand during pre-trial proceedings)

While serving in the military, my last boss (an Annapolis grad) insisted I be able to call a sonsabitch a sonsabitch in four languages, on his behalf. The low-brow, illiterate connotation simply doesn't wash.

Any form of speech can be overused. I quickly lose patience with any author who elects to "shock me" with his vast repertoire and clever use of four-letter words. Likewise, I lose patience with an author when he/she has a redneck crack-addict, wife beating, lout of a character say things like, "Awww, darn it to heck! I'm madder than H-E-double-hockey sticks!!"

I'm not saying such a character couldn't exist somewhere. However, I'm resonably sure said author probably hasn't thoroughly researched his character very well. So, use profanity if you like, (and if the story truly calls for it) but use it honestly and in "real life" context.

Just my 2 bits. (adjusted for inflation)

[sellthepharm]

I know... what's the point of showing a movie like Saving Private Ryan or 8 Miles and bleep out every swear word? It ruins the movies.

Is it just me or is the mere mentioning of these two movies in the same sentence "offensive"?

To me it's like saying, "I can't wait to read The Lovely Bones after I finish Atlanta Nights" or maybe "My two favorite movies of all time are Schindler's List and Harold and Kumar go to White Castle."

[Torin]

I have a neighbour, a woman coming up on 60, who uses variants of the F word in every f8cking sentence, as an adverb, adjective, noun and verb. I'm not offended by it, but I certainly don't hold her in the highest esteem regarding her intellect. She's not a stupid woman, though not well-educated, nor is she a raging *****. She's a perfectly nice person, most of the time (aren't we all?).

Now, I don't swear much--any more. I do, when it's called for. My son, who is 19, seldom swears, nor do most of his friends. My 12 year old doesn't use bad language very often. My oldest child now has a daughter of her own, and that fact has cleaned up her mouth a LOT in the past two years. Heh. There are folks around here who do it all the time, and others who curse so seldom that it's a real eye-opener.

So, back to the point, when it comes to books, if there's an overabundance of cursing, I find myself counting the F word and not really paying attention to the story. It's like counting adverbs or something and distracts from the story. One character who uses it all the time is fine. 5 or more would be overdoing it for me.

[Roger J Carlson]

can anybody think of any hand gestures besides "the finger" that amount to curses?

The only one I can think of off the top of my head is thumbing your nose, but to me that seems pretty tame.When I was in grade school, the index finger and pinky held up together and shown by the back of the hand (as with "the finger") meant a**h***. Perhaps it was regional (and dated) because I haven't seen it elsewhere. Odd. I haven't thought of that in years.

Of course, my five-year-old niece does that while sticking her thumb out at the same time and it means: I Love You.

[Julie Worth]

Generally, I only let the women curse. Sometimes I let a man do it, but only to indicate that he’s an idiot. Cursing is attractive on women, I’m not sure why.

[Mac H.]

There is one thing I could never understand.

If you had two options: End "Gone with the Wind" with Rhett Butler saying:
a. "Frankly my dear, I don't give a d!mn" -or-
b. "Frankly my dear, I don't give a f!ck"

Which is more offensive?
a. Is a reference to eternal suffering - of unending agony and torture .. while
b. Is a rather juvenile reference to sex.

Personally I don't like swearing. It really bothers me for some reason.

But (b) would have been a great ending.

Mac.

[Roger J Carlson]

It's interesting, but we use the words "cursing", "swearing", "vulgarity", "profanity", and "epithet" as if they are synonymous, but they are not. Each is very different.

A curse means to call down disaster upon another. So phrases like "damn you" and "go to hell" are curses. Expletives like "hell" and "damn" are simply shortened versions.

Swearing is making a promise and calling on a higher being to hold you to it. For instance: "by God" is swearing. It is exactly the same as when being "sworn in" in a court of law: "so help me God" There is a Biblical admonition against this ("let your yes be yes and your no be no), which is why Jehovah's Witnesses won't swear in court or pledge allegiance. This is NOT using the Lord's name in vain, however.

Profanity is taking something sacred and using for base purposes. This IS using the Lord's name in vain, a la the Ten Commandments. So "God damn you" is both a curse AND profanity. The "God" part is worse than the "damn" part because of the use of God's name. This is why the Jews didn't use the name of Jehovah because they didn't want to use the name in vain. Other examples are "Jesus H. Christ" (and variants) and even "Holy Smokes".

Vulgarity is by far the largest category of cuss words (I can't think of another way to name the entire group), and it is the most flexible. Basically, vulgarity deals primarily with excretory or reproductive functions. These change between time periods and cultures. There are two interesting features of vulgar words: 1) they are generally considered to be the "worst" of the cuss words, and 2) there is no really usable alternatives. The only alternatives are clinical (stool, bowel-movement) or childish (poopies).

Epithets (or "slurs") are a relatively new category of cuss words. Epithets were once acceptable but are now held in very low esteem. They are also a large category which varies from culture to culture and age to age. These words usually equate a person to some perceived inferior race or animal. Some of the mildest (b****, a**, etc.) have become almost acceptable in polite society, while racial epithets, once common, are now some of the least acceptable.

The important thing is that cuss words are culturally based and you have to use them in the way that each strata within a culture uses them.

What I find interesting is that cuss words are even beginning to appear in Christian publishing. My mother is reading a book to my father (who is blind) which has "swear words" in it. (She just says "blankity-blank" though <g>). It is a novel about an unrepentant sinner who is eventually redeemed. In the preface, the author warns of the words but says that this is how people really talk and besides (he says) there aren't any words there that God hasn't heard before.

[Sharon Mock]

In literature and in real life, foul language usually bothers me only if it's intended to offend or assault, or if it's poorly done. I don't believe that "elegantly foul-mouthed" is an oxymoron.

I wrote a novel once featuring a) college students, and b) rural newspaper deliverymen. There was a lot of swearing in that one, for some strange reason. Even so, several characters used offensive language seldom or never, including the hero. The foulest-mouthed folks were supporting characters.

My current WIP is almost squeaky-clean in comparison. There's a smattering of scatology, a bit of bitchiness and bastardry (and I find it interesting that the the first word is censored and the second isn't, but I digress). A good deal of taking God's name in vain, but that's thematic. In language, at least, no worse than a PG-13.

There's a pretty famous rule about the movie ratings system. In a PG-13 movie, you can drop the F-bomb exactly once. (It can't be used in a sexual context, either.) More than once, and it's an R. So of course I've been thinking for months, "So... where am I going to drop that one F-bomb?" :D

A couple of weeks ago... I found it. It's not gratuitous. Nothing else will do.

I'm so happy. Also, shameless. Oh, well...

[zeprosnepsid]

I regret not having gotten in on this discussion earlier. I gave up swearing for Lent in fifth grade (a time at which I was swear with great frequency. I gave it up because I was afraid I would slip and do it in front of my parents). And I swear extrememly seldomly at current.

Now, for everyone who has felt the need to defend themselves as both one who curses and one who is intelligent, I don't think people are disagreeing with you. Vulgarity is associated with lack of intelligence because it used to represent class distinction. A lord or lady would not swear in public but the man who cleans their shoes would. Now, where people of all classes swear, it's not necessarily true anymore, but that thought still remains. Because you are using language that originated with uneducated people. (I would think you were German if you were speaking German.) Although it's been noted that education and intelligence are not the same thing, the words have often been synonymous throughout history.

:Wha: I think to be offended by something as small as someone's choice of words is to be childish. I tend to get offended by things that matter.

I do think swearing is disrespectful. I don't know why it's so uncool and out of style to be polite. People assume thinking only about themselves is self-confidence. 'I swear because that's who i am and I won't change for you!'
But what is so abhorrent about accomodating other people?

I think thinking only about yourself is childish. It's 2 year old thinking -- me, me, me! It's mature and adult to respect other people.

What is gained by swearing? That's what I don't understand. It's like smoking. There are no pluses. The minuses are what people will think about you. Also, religiously -- both Christian and Buddhist -- it's sullying yourself spiritually. As in Buddhism, where anything that will distract you from the path.

Swearing also often distracts what you actual mean. Is 'f' or 's' what you actually mean? Probably not. For people who were defending their intelligence -- just know using these words distracts from what you are saying. You'd be better off just saying it.

I tend to get offended by things that matter.

Then talk about things that matter. Is 'I'm a sexy c*nt' what matters? Why doesn't being polite to people matter?

In my life I've seen correlations between swear words and other things. My grandfather was a marine. He swears a lot and he's also incredibly prejudice. My dad subsequently swears some and is a little prejudice although he knows better. But when you have disrespect for people with your language, it's easier to have disrespect for them in other ways. This is obviously not true of everyone and is simply my personal experience.

Again, it just comes down to -- it's out of style to be polite and accomodating to people. It's in style to think only of yourself.

But I do think it's important to be reasonable. I don't swear because it's unreasonable (and it just bothers me to be honest). But of course, when dealing with fiction, you have to reasonable. I think it's funny for a character not to swear to get a PG-13 rating -- when they would swear in real life. I don't think anyone here has said -- don't have your character's swear if they would in real life. I'm unsure why so many people have felt the need to defend the doing of so. I believe everyone agrees.

But to be honest, while i'd easily watch a movie with swearing in it, I probably would pass on a book with a lot of profanity. But that doesn't mean I think you shouldn't do it.

[reph]

What is gained by swearing? That's what I don't understand.
I can explain it in my case. If one has a habit of using (or thinking) those words and phrases, they jump spontaneously out of one's mouth when emotion calls for them. It isn't that something is gained, but that the person isn't censoring. Being startled makes it more likely to happen. When the store I was shopping in began to move back and forth during the Loma Prieta earthquake, I said "Oh, my God" without exactly intending to speak. If I drop something on the floor and make a mess, I might say "Oh, s**t," but not very loud; I might just mutter it.

As Roger Carlson pointed out upthread, these aren't true swears, but I believe we're talking about a broader category that includes vulgarities and the rest.

[maestrowork]

My characters can swear any way they want to. I'm not going to censor anyone of them, and I'm not going to judge. Good thing I'm writing adult mainstream fiction.

[Mac H.]

But of course, when dealing with fiction, you have to reasonable. I think it's funny for a character not to swear to get a PG-13 rating -- when they would swear in real life. I don't think anyone here has said -- don't have your character's swear if they would in real life. I'm unsure why so many people have felt the need to defend the doing of so. I believe everyone agrees.

I don't agree. And not just because I enjoy disagreeing for the sake of it either.

As you pointed out, "swearing also often distracts from what you actually mean". In the screenwriting I attempt to do, communicating as much as possible in a line or two of dialogue is important - and swearing (and other 'filler' words) is usually a waste of bandwidth.

Once I had to go through a pile of telephone recordings to transcribe conversations. Believe me - we don't speak the way we think we do. Nobody in real life speaks the way we do in fiction. Even the most articulate people have odd pauses, ums, ers, going down unrelated tangents etc. When you read the transcript, it seems nothing like the conversation you heard in your head. The brain filters out all these odd unrelated distractions and so even a conversation with a high court judge comes out on a transcript like a failed Beavis and Butthead script.

Also it is more difficult in historical writing. One story I attempted to write was a drama set in World War I. I had very sympathetic Australian character fighting in the battles. The problem is that if I had him speak the way they did then, he would lose all sympathy. If you read diaries of the soldiers, you'll often see them refer to the enemy Turks as 'f!cking n!ggers' etc.

To the modern ear, it makes our poor hero sound totally different to the typical young chap he really was. As zeprosnepsid said - it is just a distraction. And so I'm happy to cut out the distractions.

Mac

[PattiTheWicked]

:Wha: I think to be offended by something as small as someone's choice of words is to be childish. I tend to get offended by things that matter.
These days no one judges another by his use of cuss words. It's 2005 after all and I'm not wearing a corset.

Indeed.

I'm rarely offended by expletives -- I used to work at a fire department, and I was the only woman working with thirty guys, most of whom also happened to be in the Navy. You'd be amazed at some of the creative combinations we came up with.

I'm more offended by people using racial or sexual slurs than I am by someone dropping an f-bomb into conversation.

I watched an interesting interview with David Milch, the creator of my absolute favorite TV show, Deadwood, which is known for -- among other things -- the astounding prevalence of four-letter words. He pointed out that in some social groups, the excessive use of profanity is used as an exclusionary tactic. It keeps the people who DON'T use profanity away. It's a social divider in a way, and that actually makes sense to me.

I've often wondered why people assume that someone who uses profanity is uneducated or lower class. I'm an upper middle class suburbanite with a college education, and when the need arises, I can swear with the best of them. I do tend to reserve my swearing for objects (Ouch! I stubbed my ^$&##*@ toe!) rather than people (You are SUCH a *&%$#!), but that's mostly because when I want to insult people, I try to do it with eloquence that leaves them knowing that I just dogged them, but not entirely sure how it happened.

[HConn]

What is gained by swearing? That's what I don't understand. It's like smoking. There are no pluses.

Freedom to express yourself in ways that others disapprove of. The joy of speaking freely. The pleasure of telling someone to F^ck off, because said person doesn't deserve a better response. The pleasure that comes from refusing to be bound by the pointless twittering of blue noses and moralizers.

I don't have a problem with people who refuse to swear. I don't have a problem with their books. But if you're going to compare me, a person who swears, to a two-year-old, well, **** ***.

:moon:

[Steve 211]

For fiction, language is part of character, and yet in dialogue one has to pare down actual speech to the bone. So I use swears, but cut out much of them to make them more effective.

I've always found it funny what offends someone. A simple soundwave that you're told is "bad." If someone says, "That's one f-ing cool shirt," that's much less of a sin or bad taste than someone saying, "Oh, nice shirt," in a sarcastic way. One is a heartfelt compliment, the other a heartless put-down.

It's also funny how in the current "Battlestar Galactica" they're able to say "What the frack's going on?" and "Oh, frack!" We know what they're saying, but somehow, because they changed two letters, it's deemed acceptable. Frackin' weird.

Finally, about the rights of an artist, a quote from Joe Pesci about Martin Scorsese:


I remember one time on "Raging Bull" I was cursing, and Irwin Winkler said to Marty, "You know, can we cut down on the cursing a little bit? Don’t forget, you know, the television version can’t have any of this at all." And Marty looked worried. And I put my two cents in. I said, "Oh, I didn’t know you made movies for television." Well, he went crazy. "He’s right! What do I care? Curse more! Curse more!"

[firehorse]

He also broke me from the habit of saying, "Takes one to know one, yer honor...sir") :roll:
I lose patience with an author when he/she has a redneck crack-addict, wife beating, lout of a character say things like, "Awww, darn it to heck! I'm madder than H-E-double-hockey sticks!!" This is one of my biggest beefs with American television (even though this isn't the screenwriting forum). Take Law & Order, for example. If you and a date were strolling down the block and came upon a bloodied body, would you really yell "Oh my god!" I don't know about you, but I'd be more like "HOLY F*CK!!"

(Canadian TV allows many words American TV doesn't; as for the F word, if it's after 9pm and - my favourite part - "in context," it's okay. I still haven't figured out what the CRTC means by "in context," but I suppose discovering a dead body would qualify.)

I swear like a sailor in real life (as do most of my friends), and when I'm writing personal stuff, I use it in my voice. With characters, it depends on who they are and whether I can get away with it. When I was writing comedy, though, the rule was "Can you get a laugh without it?" It becomes easy to rely on 'blue' words for laughs.

I really need to go to bed. I do know what I'm talking about - rambling about - I just have no idea whether it has any relevance to this thread. Probably a sign I should call it a night.

A night.

skc

[zeprosnepsid]

But if you're going to compare me, a person who swears, to a two-year-old, well, **** ***.

I was directly referencing a post that said that people who didn't swear as being childish. I believe I listed good reasons for what I said. I'm a firm believer in you can have any opinion you want as long as you back it up, which I did. You did not back your reasoning here and you were not meant to take that statement personally. I didn't call you, personally, a two year old. Are we not allowed to have an intelligent debate about which side is more childish? I wish you had instead chose to add to this debate. State your reasons why you support the other side of the argument. Enhance the conversation.

But you, sweared personally at me. Most people here mentioned they don't have a problem with swears unless they are directed at them. Which this was.

I wonder, do you feel better for having sworn at me? I hope you feel satisfied with yourself. I made it very clear that I don't like swearing and you decided to treat me this way reguardless. You don't even know me and you say that to me?

Would it make any difference to you to know that I am an incredibly ill person? I've spent 2 years at home because of my illnesses. Among them including a painful rare disease. That you've picked on a sickly girl? But clearly you gave no thought to another person. To the pain you will cause them. To the effects your words will have on another person. To the energy this is making me use.

But I doubt I can make a person like you feel bad, because I know you don't care about me.

I've always liked this board because it's such a supportive and nice place. A place where you can voice an opinion about something. Someone asked a question and I gave an honest answer. But now being the victim of a personal attack -- and knowing there are people here who will do exactly what you ask them not to do just in order to spite you, it sours my whole experience.

[alaskamatt17]

Well, I know that people who swear abundantly are not necessarily more mature than those who don't. The inverse also applies. It's not swearing that makes you seem more adult; if that was the case, my brother would have been a prodigy when he said, "Donald Duck made me ****" at age four. Also, specifically avoiding taboo words by substituting things like crap and freakin' tends to make people sound as if they are a student in a junior high school. Then again, so does abundant swearing these days.

It really depends on your reasons for swearing. If you're saying a swear word just to hear your own voice shaping syllables that nobody wants to hear, that isn't helping anybody. If you're writing these words for the same reason, the previous statement also applies. It is quite possible to be profound and forcible without resorting to words that some people consider "offensive."

In my own writing I avoid the inclusion of taboo words because I want my books to be read by a yound audience in addition to adults. That's not to say that second graders will be easily offended by the random scatological reference (I was reading Michael Crichton by that age, and some of his books contain such words), it's just that I would personally rather have parents embrace my writing than go against it.

That said, plenty of successful authors use swear words effectively, sometimes abundantly. There's no reason abundant swearing can't appear in a novel. There are only reasons why it shouldn't. Namely, if the language gets in the way of the character, theme, or plot. That's it. The story is more important than any other aspect of writing. If you don't believe me, ask someone who actually knows what they're talking about. I'm fairly certain they'll tell you something similar.

[SeanDSchaffer]

Using cuss words in writing is, IMO, good to an extent when used to promote realism in the characters. But I think when overused, those same words can become irritating.

For instance, I could understand when a character in Raiders of the Lost Ark said "I'm your G** D***ed partner!" It happened like once in the entire movie.

But when Axel Foley used the 'F' word in almost every sentence in the original Beverly Hills Cop, I think that really distracted my attention from the story itself and instead pulled my attention solely toward the language that was being spoken. It almost made me put the movie away when we were only five minutes into it.

In other words, I think some cussing is realistic; but too much cussing can be very distracting. I think too much could pull people's attention away from the story and more toward the thought, "Maybe I shouldn't be reading this?"

Just my two cents.

[HConn]

You did not back your reasoning here...

I gave my reasons in the part of the post you chose not to post. So nyah.

... and you were not meant to take that statement personally.

"Meant?" Sorry. I'm not a mind reader.

But you, sweared personally at me.

Actually, I asterixed at you.

Oh, come on! Do you really think the censorship software on this board deleted the word "OFF?"

Puh-lease.

And what is so offensive about the first four letter word under those asterixes ("BACK")?

Honestly. Some people.

[Steve 211]

Come on, HConn. You just kicked a sick girl. She was very reasonable in her original post, and while she may have taken your blunt reply too personally, she didn't deserve the comments above. Purposely trampling another's feelings is worse than any swearing in itself.

[three seven]

I think it's funny for a character not to swear to get a PG-13 ratingThat's a good point in that it raises the hilarious issue of media censorship. Don't you just love that more than two f*cks in a film gets you an R rating, but there's no law to prevent a four-year-old reading Irvine Welsh? http://www.geocities.com/thingumybobwotsit/roll.gif

[Roger J Carlson]

This is one of my biggest beefs with American television (even though this isn't the screenwriting forum). Take Law & Order, for example. If you and a date were strolling down the block and came upon a bloodied body, would you really yell "Oh my god!" I don't know about you, but I'd be more like "HOLY F*CK!!" As someone who was raised to think that "heck" was a bad word, I probably wouldn't even say "Oh my god." I almost never cuss (to use the generic) and when I do I am alone. I don't say this to imply I am better than anyone else, just that people differ. As I said, I don't cuss and few of my family, friends, co-workers, etc. do either. I think it is not so much a matter of education but one of culture. I also don't want to imply that one culture is better than another. They're just different.

I think this is the important thing about cussing in literature. If it is appropriate for the culture of the characters then it belongs. If it is not, then it doesn't.

When I was writing comedy, though, the rule was "Can you get a laugh without it?" It becomes easy to rely on 'blue' words for laughs.This is a good rule and I think it should be expanded to all writing. "Can the character be realistic in this situation without it?" or "Is this scene as powerful without it?" would be reasonable adaptations of the rule for all writing. You can also rely on blue words for shock or impact in serious writing.

[Roger J Carlson]

But when Axel Foley used the 'F' word in almost every sentence in the original Beverly Hills Cop, I think that really distracted my attention from the story itself and instead pulled my attention solely toward the language that was being spoken. It almost made me put the movie away when we were only five minutes into it.I agree. As a cop on the mean streets of Detroit, it is reasonable for Axel to cuss, but I think they over did it.

Here's my criteria: If I can watch the network "sanitized" version and enjoy the movie just as much, then the cussing was gratutious. Beverly Hill Cop is an example of that.

But the TBS version of Blazing Saddles is nearly unwatchable. Particularly gauling to me is the wholesale removal of the N-word. Now don't get me wrong. I've never in my life used the N-word (solumn truth) and I don't avocate its use. But in the context of the movie, it was used not to disparage black people, but to disparage bigotted people who use that term. In the context of the story it is not only acceptable, but necessary.

[Steve 211]

I did recently see Reservoir Dogs on TV, and while at times it looked like a badly-dubbed movie, I did enjoy it for the writing. How Tarantino played with the order of events and the unique characters and tension.

And about profanity, as in using God's name in vain, good point on that. And yet we still do it with "Geesh." It's a shortened version of Jesus, just as s'blood was short for "God's blood" in Shakespeare's time. So, technically, we can't say "Geesh" or "Golly gee whiz, Batman." But I'm sure it's okay with the folks above.

[reph]

Purposely trampling another's feelings is worse than any swearing in itself.
It's good to remember how little you know about anyone you're replying to. Anyone here may be in a vulnerable state by reason of illness, chronic pain, recent bereavement or some other life crisis, or any of the "thousand natural shocks." I save my sarcasm for spammers and those who are joking to begin with.

[skylarburris]

I wouldn't say I'm offended by it so much as wearied by it. I find it dull and unnecessary. There are times when it is needed, but not as many as writers (especially screenwriters) think. And yes, it does often seem unimaginative to me. But where I live, honestly, people just don't swear very often. And if they do, it comes off sounding unnatural. Except on rare occasions (sudden pain, sudden frustration) I would actually have to force myself to swear, the way some people make an effort to incorporate big words into thier speech...swearing never trips instinctively from my tounge in conversation (only in moments of unexpected pain or destruction). And, really, most of the people I know are like that. It may be a geographic thing. I was surprised at how much my roomate from the North East swore, and how naturally it came to her. (I'm from the South East, my husand is from the Midwest, and neither of us grew up hearing much swearing.)

I can understand it in dialogue, when you are trying to capture a character that really talks like that. Understand it--but not necessarily think it essential. I can watch old black and white movies and not feel like they are artistically inferiror movies just because I don't get as many f&#%ss (f@#%ss) as I would in Goodfellas.

And, in answer to a pp, yes, "Oh, God" is the most likely thing I would say if I came across a dead body. Now, if I stubbed my toe, it would be something else if I didn't catch myself.

[Gin]

Sounds 'intelligent' to me. But, nevertheless, I hear more swearing in 'worse' areas of town then in 'better' areas. Go figure. By the way, what was the question?

[HConn]

Come on, HConn. You just kicked a sick girl.

How someone can compare a string of asterixes to physical assault is beyond me.

But I would like to thank Zeprosnepsid and Steve 211 for demonstrating the true power words can have. Seven asterixes and a space have become a "kick." Funny.

Maybe I shouldn't have gotten angry when Zep called me childish, but that's the power of that word, too.

Posts that complain the words are boring, or upsetting, or offensive, or low-class, or whatever completely miss the point. Most words, in the right context, have power. I managed to tap into that power without even writing the actual words. Think on that.

[reph]

It's "asterisks."

[HConn]

/shrug

Guess I still have this guy on my mind:

http://home.freeuk.com/markk/Consoles/asterix-f.jpg

[zeprosnepsid]

I may have taken things too seriously. As noted, you don't know what people are going through and I was having a horrible day. I reacted in a way I may not have on another day. But I was honestly upset by the whole thing.

But as mentioned, I suppose the whole incident is an interesting look at the power of words and in many ways was a concrete example of the debate of the whole thread.

See HConn, we're just showing everyone an example of what they've been talking about.

[HConn]

:D

[Note On]

But the TBS version of Blazing Saddles is nearly unwatchable. Particularly gauling to me is the wholesale removal of the N-word.

What!?

****ing morons.

[Steve 211]

"Excuse me while I whip this out..."

He didn't use the actual word, either, and got a good many women to faint.

:whip:

[NeuroFizz]

This question has been through seven pages of comments, and I don't have the time to go through all of them right now (I got through three), so if anyone has said what is coming here, consider this a second (or third) to the throught. The question shouldn’t be if cussing is okay, but rather how to use it to your advantage in the story. If you establish a character as a non-cusser, and in a tense scene he lets out a whopper, you’ve shown in a word or two how grave the situation is. If you have a character who cusses with his co-workers but becomes the model of proper language with his boss, what does that tell you about him? If a woman gets angry when her friends cuss but becomes a potty mouth to impress the hunk with the tattoos, what does it say about her? What about the person who doesn’t care about the company or the situation and just lets it all fly? Cussing is one of many wonderful tools we can use. Personally, I find it therapeutic. By the way, what do you think a nun says when she drops a brick on her foot

[Mike Martyn]

As a boy of eleven, I went on a rowing trip. Five of the other boys were my age, the youngest, our two bowsmen were seven and the eldest, our steersman was all of fourteen. This was in the early sixties. We were gone for eight days without any adult supervsion.

We took great delight in swearing even if most of us didn't know what the F word or the C word meant! We could never have gotten away with it at home. It would have been the strap or the stick at school. At home it would have been our fathers' belt across our backsides.

We sang the most terrible songs which some of us would have learned from our older brothers all about rape and prostitues, really terrible stuff. Again most of us didn't actually know what we were singing. We just knew they were filthy songs. We never took the Lord's name in vain though. We were all choir boys at the Cathedral in Winnipeg!

If you've ever seen the movie, Stand By Me, that was pretty much us.

[oswann]

I think I said it before somewhere in this thread, but I am your basic heathen and swear when upset or when I feel like it with no real qualms. However, in my writing I choose not to let my chararcters swear because it doesn't suit them. I floated the idea around but it's just not correct for the way I write. I'm sure of it.

It's a choice that relates directly to what I am doing, which is more in the mould of close proximity mystery than real life or exaggerated blood and guts stuff. Imagine Agatha Christie coming out with a few mutha fu.......It doesn't really fit. Not that I'm Agatha Christie nor aiming to reproduce Agatha Christie, but the image suits.

I am writing the books that I want to read. I'm a little tired of having the world interpreted through books, TV, film, etc. thrown up in my face in a flurry of profanities. This is just me. I'm not shocked or overwhelmed, just a bit weary.

Having said that there is room for everyone. Do whatever makes the story better, if this means swearing, by all means...



Os.

[DeadlyAccurate]

We took great delight in swearing even if most of us didn't know what the F word or the C word meant! We could never have gotten away with it at home. It would have been the strap or the stick at school. At home it would have been our fathers' belt across our backsides.

Up until a couple of years ago, I enjoyed playing paintball (I'm 31 for reference). While sharing bunkers with them, I found out that the most dirty-mouthed people on the planet are boys around age 14. (I also found out they either thought I was the coolest person on the planet, or were convinced I couldn't shoot worth crap because I was female, but that's another story.)

My first two novels were sword-and-sorcery, and I had very little foul language. Mostly a few damns and such. My third and fourth books are set in the near future and my protagonist is a professional killer. Her language isn't pretty. I try not to inundate the reader. My character doesn't use foul language constantly, because that becomes hard to read. But I have no doubt that someone will throw my book aside and have a negative opinion of me and my writing because of the words I use. (I also have no doubt that someone will be more bothered by her casual use of the f-word than the fact that she kills half a dozen people over the course of almost three hundred pages).

[Roger J Carlson]

Up until a couple of years ago, I enjoyed playing paintball (I'm 31 for reference). While sharing bunkers with them, I found out that the most dirty-mouthed people on the planet are boys around age 14. (I also found out they either thought I was the coolest person on the planet, or were convinced I couldn't shoot worth crap because I was female, but that's another story.) So THAT's where the alias comes from!

[Innocent01]

Swearing doesn't offend me. There are pretty much only three things in the known world that do offend me, and swear words are not one of them. In my online journal and talking to my friends online, I can cuss a blue streak. In my writing, I only use swear words if the character in question would use them. Which is most of them, really. Around my parents, other adults and my offline friends, I don't swear - my parents don't allow it, none of my friends swear, and I have respect for other adults, particularly the parents of my friends. I would rather not have people I know well think any less of me because I let fly with the f-word a little too much for my own good...

[Liam Jackson]

But I have no doubt that someone will throw my book aside and have a negative opinion of me and my writing because of the words I use. (I also have no doubt that someone will be more bothered by her casual use of the f-word than the fact that she kills half a dozen people over the course of almost three hundred pages).
[/url]
[url="http://absolutewrite.com/forums/report.php?p=169234"] (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=170262#)


Isn't that the truth!

[soloset]

It's good to remember how little you know about anyone you're replying to. Anyone here may be in a vulnerable state by reason of illness, chronic pain, recent bereavement or some other life crisis, or any of the "thousand natural shocks." I save my sarcasm for spammers and those who are joking to begin with.

Which is why I never seek out random people who haven't posted their opinion in a public forum to debate with -- they haven't invited themselves to the party and I wouldn't want to hurt their feelings inadvertently because I didn't know they were in a bad way.

On the topic of swearing -- I say use it to illustrate your character's character. If your character would say the form of "gosh darnit" that'd get you kicked out of Sunday school, then cover her mouth and look embarrassed, that says something quite different about the character than if she uses the f-word liberally in front of her mother.

[Joni Holderman]

37-
Ok, I'm probably a great beta tester for you because I'm a middle-aged suburban midwestern woman who thinks Hip Hop is obscene. But, I drive in the Chicago area, so I use the F-word (and single-fingered salute) every day in the car. I can - and do - use a lot of those words if I'm annoyed about something. I also belong to the 'not at someone' camp.

I do believe what Mom told us. . . there's a time and a place for it. It's hard to imagine dialogue by a Chicago cop with all expletives deleted.

The only time I've been seriously offended by language in the last 10 years was when I was at a Saturday afternoon showing of the animated feature Robots recently. The theatre was full of children, some of them as young as 3 or 4, and the man in front of me (who was in his late 20's, and with his girlfriend) felt the need to scream "Oh HELL No!!!" every time anything mildly amusing occurred.

Hell is not a word that offends me, but after about 25 times, I felt its use was inappropriate in that venue. And, frankly, he seemed to be doing it simply to impress everyone with how 'cool' he was, even though he was at a children's movie. I felt that he could have sufficiently annoyed the entire audience with his loud laugh, without resorting to profanity. So, I dumped my bucket of buttered popcorn and giant Diet Coke on his head. (Ok, I lied. I would have, but I hadn't had lunch, and I was hungry.)

The major problem I have with verbal OR written language is when the F-word is substituted for content. I'm trying not to be sexist or ageist, but this particular verbal tic seems to occur more frequently with . . . ahem, young men.

In writing and editing, I would use the same technique for swear words that I use for dialect or adjectives. Write it once in the way that seems most natural. Go back and delete every single swear word (phonetic spelling, adjective) you possibly can without destroying the meaning. In my experience, about 25% will remain. And the remaining fraction will be crucial to the story.

The excessive use of profanity among urban youth IS a dialect. Transcribing it literally should be avoided just as too frequent phonetic spelling of a southern or New Jersey or black dialect is. Readers are smart. If we simply imply a "dose guys" or a "y'all come" they will hear that voice throughout the piece.

The best dialect is accomplished simply with the rhythm of the words, not phonetic spelling or profanity.

Too frequent use of profanity or dialect can create an authorial intrusion. By seeming to demean the characters, and by extension whole groups of people, the incautious author runs the risk of a) letting the words get in the way of the story and b) alienating the audience.

An exercise that might be interesting is to write your story without any profanity, then go back and add it in only where it strengthens the story. This entirely avoids the problem of substituting F*** for content.

But either way, I promise I won't pour my popcorn on your book.
Joni

[stace001]

Swearing does not offend me as a reader, but I'd hope that it's used sparingly to make a point. It'll get old very quickly if every other word out of a character's mouth starts with F. I have a character who's a peasant and kind of rough. He cusses. The guys he hangs with cuss. It's part of their image. Another character does not, even though the people she hangs with often do. As she puts it, "my mouth and my arse have different purposes." :)

Azbikergirl, I couldn't have said it better myself. I think swearing has its place, just like everything else, but after half an hour of listening to someone call someone else a mother#$%^* I'd probably be a bit 'over it' too. Azbikergirl, if that line "my mouth and my arse have different purposes" is a line in your book, I can't wait to read it. It had me in stitches!!!

[stace001]

This question has been through seven pages of comments, and I don't have the time to go through all of them right now (I got through three), so if anyone has said what is coming here, consider this a second (or third) to the throught. The question shouldn’t be if cussing is okay, but rather how to use it to your advantage in the story. If you establish a character as a non-cusser, and in a tense scene he lets out a whopper, you’ve shown in a word or two how grave the situation is. If you have a character who cusses with his co-workers but becomes the model of proper language with his boss, what does that tell you about him? If a woman gets angry when her friends cuss but becomes a potty mouth to impress the hunk with the tattoos, what does it say about her? What about the person who doesn’t care about the company or the situation and just lets it all fly? Cussing is one of many wonderful tools we can use. Personally, I find it therapeutic. By the way, what do you think a nun says when she drops a brick on her foot
Neurofizz, you hit the nail on the head also, and gave me another great laugh!! Thank god for my computer that I didn't have a mouthful of coke or coffee, because my computer would have never recovered. What does a nun say when she drops a brick on her foot?

[Vipersniper]

:ROFL: You would be surprised at the swearing that goes on in nursing homes etc. But anything done excessively after awhile becomes a turn off. Especially if the only words coming out of a person's mouth is as they say a racist remark, detrimental to the well being of another. But you have to realize that people do swear and say things that they would not normally do in church so to speak. This is part of life and now if someone offends me I usually let them know it. I was recently in the ER trying to admit my husband when a lady came up and butted in to ask a dumb question. It was not that I minded her rudeness so much but we were answering questions about his history. She could have waited but she wanted to be someplace else. That brings out the horns in me. I hate to be someplace and hear a kid talking very rudely and ugly to a parent.

[tls_writes]

I do believe what Mom told us. . . there's a time and a place for it.

This pretty much sums up my feelings on it.

Which isn't to say that it sums up all my characters' feelings on it; the author is not the character, after all.

[LightShadow]

Just like most other items, swearing is not evil, but should be used in moderation, and usually for showing a character's personality or shortcomings or what-not.