Bringing a "grammatical" arguement to GfG.

Bartholomew · Oct 18, 2007

http://www.pvponline.com/

http://www.halfpixel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=21841#21841

I'm just curious as to whether any of you think that "Cut and Dry" is used incorrectly here.

Shweta · Oct 18, 2007

I'd expect "cut and dried" myself, but usage changes.
And what, do professionally published authors actually know about these things?

Bartholomew · Oct 19, 2007

Not much, I suspect.

Dawnstorm · Oct 19, 2007

It's grammatically correct, but this isn't a question of grammar, it's one of idiom, and the idiom I know is "cut and dried". "Cut and dry" may be idiomatic, too, and may be more common in some regions, for all I know (according to Superluser's OED quote they've certainly used the phrase before 1887). If you think "cut and dry" is okay, you've probably heard it often enough.

I suspect it's one of those fruitless battles like "couldn't care less" vs. "could care less".

Duncan J Macdonald · Oct 19, 2007

Bartholomew said:
http://www.pvponline.com/

http://www.halfpixel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=21841#21841

I'm just curious as to whether any of you think that "Cut and Dry" is used incorrectly here.

Ummm, yes. What I get from the context is that Ms. Jade Fontaine is questioning the evidence of the 'murder' that she's been seeing over the past few days.

First, a murder wouldn't be 'cut and dry', the evidence would be 'cut and dry' in the sense of being prepared ahea of time.

Or, you could have a 'cut-and-dried' murder in the second sense listed below.

Dictionary of Phrase and Fable (1898)
Cut and Dry. Already prepared. “He had a speech all cut and dry.” The allusion is to timber cut, dry, and fit for use.

Roget's Thesarus (1995)
cut-and-dried ADJECTIVE:Being of no special quality or type: average, common, commonplace, formulaic, garden, garden-variety, indifferent, mediocre, ordinary, plain, routine, run-of-the-mill, standard, stock, undistinguished, unexceptional, unremarkable

So, Jade should have said: "I'm not sure this murder is as cut-and-dried as it looks."

There, my two-cents for what it's worth.

Duncan J Macdonald · Oct 19, 2007

Dawnstorm said:
I suspect it's one of those fruitless battles like "couldn't care less" vs. "could care less".

WHo said that's a fruitless battle?? The two phrases obviously mean different things!!!!!!!!!

Marlys · Oct 19, 2007

I don't see the OED citation here, so I'll supply it:

cut and dried (also cut and dry): originally referring to herbs in the herbalists' shops, as contrasted with growing herbs; hence, fig. ready-made and void of freshness and spontaneity; also, ready shaped according to a priori formal notions.

The first recorded usage of cut and dried is 1710, with 1730 for cut and dry--from the perspective of 300 years, the gap between is pretty insignificant. Both work grammatically: the herbs were cut and they were dried. Looking at them, they one can see they are cut and they are dry.

So either works just fine.

Jamesaritchie · Oct 19, 2007

Cut and dry

"Cut and dried" and "cut and dry" have different meanings, as well, and are not interchangeable. In this case, "cut and dry" is both grammatically and idiomatically correct.

Dawnstorm · Oct 19, 2007

Duncan J Macdonald said:
WHo said that's a fruitless battle?? The two phrases obviously mean different things!!!!!!!!!

I couldn't care less. (Edit: actually, that's a lie. I hate "I could care less"!)

Unique · Oct 19, 2007

unless you're in the process of doing it -

"cut and dried"
past tense. ya know?

Shweta · Oct 19, 2007

I don't think it is past tense. I think dry and dried are both adjectival forms.

Unique · Oct 19, 2007

Shweta said:
I don't think it is past tense. I think dry and dried are both adjectival forms.

don't make me confused.
dry - now or future
dried - past or never to have been

am i lost?

Shweta · Oct 19, 2007

I think you are.

You're thinking "I dry the towel/I dried the towel"

I think that's the wrong distinction.

It's "The towel is/was dry" vs "The towel is/was dried"

Now.

The case *is/was* "cut and dry/dried"

You can't say "I cut and dry/dried the case."
ETA: That means it's not a passive. Passives and adjectivals often look very similar, so the confusion is natural; but most passives can have active forms.

So. They're both adjectives. "Dried" is the causative adjective (It is dried means something has caused it to be dry). It's not a tense issue at all.

FennelGiraffe · Oct 19, 2007

Or "dry flowers" vs "dried flowers". The first is the adjective "dry" which is completely different from the verb "dry", but the second is whatever you call it when a participle is used as an adjective.

Shweta · Oct 19, 2007

I'd call it an adjective

Bufty · Oct 20, 2007

I believe it's called a participial adjective.

FennelGiraffe · Oct 20, 2007

Bufty said:
I believe it's called a participial adjective.

Thanks, I knew there was a term, but it just keeps slipping out of my mind. I seem to be stuck with "It looks like an adjective, it quacks like an adjective, it must BE an adjective."

Dawnstorm · Oct 20, 2007

FennelGiraffe said:
Thanks, I knew there was a term, but it just keeps slipping out of my mind. I seem to be stuck with "It looks like an adjective, it quacks like an adjective, it must BE an adjective."

Actually, it looks like a verb, quacks like an adjective, and is both.

Hehe.

girlyswot · Oct 20, 2007

I think it's part of a more general trend to avoid using the past participle as the adjective. I've lost count of the number of times I've seen a phrase described as 'cliche' rather than 'cliched', or a person being called 'close-minded' rather than 'closed-minded'. There is a distinct difference in meaning between the straight forward adjective (dry, close) and the participial adjective (dried, closed). The latter emphasises the action that brought about the state, whereas the former only describes the present state.

I think it stems from laziness and lack of understanding and is, sadly, becoming more and more prevalent. Though, interestingly, I've noticed it a lot more in America than the UK. So perhaps it's a regional variation? Still doesn't make sense though.

Shweta · Oct 20, 2007

Language change is constant, and people always think it's laziness

My guess is that that word-final d sound isn't very audible in these compound words, so things are getting reinterpreted.

girlyswot · Oct 20, 2007

Shweta said:
Language change is constant, and people always think it's laziness

My guess is that that word-final d sound isn't very audible in these compound words, so things are getting reinterpreted.

That's exactly the point. People are lazy about pronouning the 'ed' and then they become lazy about writing it.

Shweta · Oct 21, 2007

Um.
Speaking as a linguist, I can't agree that it's about laziness. It's a side effect of our speech systems being efficient and our auditory systems being good at parsing out noise.

But ya know, if you want to call it laziness I can't stop you. Nor can either of us stop it happening in every language everywhere all the time

Bringing a "grammatical" arguement to GfG.

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