Love. Arrrgh!

[Wraith]

Ok, I'm in serious need of help here. My wip is not a romance by any means but there's a very important love story in it, which I just can't pull off. :Headbang: I've read all past discussions of love scenes here (and it helped a great deal), but I'm still confused.

So, my MC goes on a journey and retrieves his lost lover somewhere on the way, and they go forth together (she has a quest as well). But their story, as in meeting, falling in love, breaking up for a while (all the interesting stuff :D) is backstory that the reader will only get a glimpse of; what happens here is the quiet, happy sort of love of a 'perfect' couple (although their relationship will change dramatically, but only later). So until things start to worsen, I have to write them being together, but it's still my MC's story - so almost all scenes focus on him and I seem to forget the woman (she hardly gets any lines), then I insert a tender scene between the two, then I forget her again. That sounds awful doesn't it? Well, it is, and I don't know how to make their love present at all times through hints and other stuff. It's hard that they're together all the time...

Maybe it's the fact that I hate writing/reading 'static' couples (are there any in real life?) and I can't give a direction to their relationship at the time. I dunno. Any suggestions on how to reconcile the main plot and the love story?

If I've confused you or you have no idea, feel free to ramble about your own ways of writing love. That could be of help too, since I seem to be generally terrible at that. :rolleyes:

Also, as a side note, today is my one-month AW anniversary, so please raise your Martinis/Cokes/mineral water/cups of bitterness :snoopy:yay!

[CaroGirl]

The "comfortable" kind of love that some couples enjoy is probably pretty difficult to write about. My suggestion is to observe. Do you know any comfortable, loving, intimate couple IRL? If so, watch them. How do they interact, touch, speak to one another? What small gestures do they make that show their bond? You don't have to write a full-blown love seen to show the tenderness between your lovers.

Hope this helps!

[Niesta]

Private jokes. Reading each other's minds (or seeming to). Even established couples flirt.

But maybe her invisibility is part of the point?

Also: if "static" couples bore you, maybe that's a sign that you should keep that part to a minimum. Bored writer=bored reader.

[windyrdg]

Consider things like a quiet trouch of the hand, a look, knowing how they like thier coffee, tea...whatever. Anticipating their needs, doing something nice for no reason. Pet names, and they don't have to be syrupy sweet. Or prefering each other's company to others. Finishing each other's sentences or thoughts. Talking about remember when... That could be a lead-in to a flashback.
"His hair is as red as x."
"Yeah, and he/she had the personality to match."
<Flashback>
Good Luck

[The_Grand_Duchess]

I agree, about keeping her to a minimum. If you're having a hard time placing her in the story maybe she just isn't meant to be there.

[Marlys]

Well, they're on a quest, right? Maybe you can make her play a more active part. Have some difficulties that require both their efforts to get out of, or alternate having her come up with the solutions sometimes and him coming up with them others. As the plot progresses, think about how they react to each other: do they always agree? do they usually work together seamlessly, almost reading each other's mind, or do they need to talk things out? what are each one's strengths and weaknesses, and how do they play out against those of the other? How does all this help and/or hinder both his quest and hers?

Best of luck with it.

[C.bronco]

). So until things start to worsen, I have to write them being together, but it's still my MC's story - so almost all scenes focus on him and he seems to forget the woman (she hardly gets any lines), then I insert a tender scene between the two, then he forgets her again. That sounds awful doesn't it? !
Sounds normal to me! ;)

P.S. How long have they been together? If it's more than a few years, I suggest adding grunting.
Betty: "How was your day?"
Ivanocles: "Mmmph."

[JoNightshade]

Okay, so, here's my real life example. It sounds like your MC and his lady love have had a time of separation before he finds her and they are together. I don't think this should be "static" or "comfortable" at all. My example from real life:

My husband and I had to spend 9 months apart before we got married. It was pure torture. We talked on the phone as much as possible, and the agony of separation was almost physically painful. When we got back together, we couldn't stop touching each other. We had to know where the other one was at all times. We did EVERYTHING together. I think maybe your MC might have some of this kind of anxiety if he's had a long separation from his loved one-- always checking to make sure she's there, not wanting to let her out of his sight. He would probably want her opinion on everything, and want to include her in everything.

Incidentally, a few months ago (we've been married for almost 2 years), I went on a business trip for 2 weeks. I lasted for about 8 days and then suddenly I WANTED TO BE HOME. Being apart from him was totally unbearable.

[FennelGiraffe]

Do you know any comfortable, loving, intimate couple IRL? If so, watch them. How do they interact, touch, speak to one another? What small gestures do they make that show their bond? You don't have to write a full-blown love seen to show the tenderness between your lovers.

That's what I'd go for -- the small, non-verbal stuff that can be tucked into other scenes wherever you need a beat to vary the pacing. (Feel free to swap around the genders in these examples):
While buying supplies, she makes a special effort to find his favorite kind of tea
While buying supplies, he buys a small gift for her and hides it where she will find it later
When someone else is talking, they make eye contact and privately react to what is being said
When someone else is talking, they avoid making eye contact in order to avoid bursting out laughing
After a disagreement, he walks over to her and strokes her cheek to apologize. And she leans into his touch to apologize in return.(Since you say 'quest' I'm envisioning a low-tech camping in the forest kind of setting, but I realize that may not be correct. So these may not quite apply, but if not you can come up with equivalents that do fit.)
Without either of them interrupting the conversation they are having with others, he starts massaging her feet (sitting around the campfire after dinner)
They hold hands while walking to their tent at night.
She wakes him up with a kiss, but they don't go into a love scene -- they get up and prepare for the day ahead.

[WittyandorIronic]

I suppose me and my husband are a "static" couple, as in we are comfortable in our relationship and with each other, and there is no drama between us. (cheating, lies, blame for money issues, hate each others family...none of that stuff) But...most of our friends and acquaintances would hardly describe us as boring. We bicker ALL the time. We are both pretty smart and knowledgeable, and we both like to be right. We also love to tease each other. Even though we are bickering, we often times end up just laughing in the middle of it, or turning it....intimate ;) if we get especially passionate about something. But between us...we know we are not arguing or fighting, just teasing and playing. I enjoy bickering with my husband.... and I know that sometimes he says things JUST to get me riled up...which is sweet, because it means he wants my attention.
LoL....wow. I just reread that, and thought, "We are freaks."
My whole point was that established and static do not have to = agree on everything, or always saying "dear, honey, sweetness".

[JoNightshade]

I suppose me and my husband are a "static" couple, as in we are comfortable in our relationship and with each other, and there is no drama between us. (cheating, lies, blame for money issues, hate each others family...none of that stuff) But...most of our friends and acquaintances would hardly describe us as boring. We bicker ALL the time. We are both pretty smart and knowledgeable, and we both like to be right. We also love to tease each other. Even though we are bickering, we often times end up just laughing in the middle of it, or turning it....intimate ;) if we get especially passionate about something. But between us...we know we are not arguing or fighting, just teasing and playing. I enjoy bickering with my husband.... and I know that sometimes he says things JUST to get me riled up...which is sweet, because it means he wants my attention.
LoL....wow. I just reread that, and thought, "We are freaks."
My whole point was that established and static do not have to = agree on everything, or always saying "dear, honey, sweetness".

Oh, I totally second this. We "bicker" ALL THE TIME. It's more of just teasing each other than really being mad. We do it in front of everyone, too.

Another thing-- when we're alone, we call each other ridiculous nicknames and use our own love-talk. Which is kind of like babytalk but... okay, we use bad grammar and we talk like LOLCats and "L337-speak." I think other people do this too.

I think.

[a_sharp]

Lots of good advice here, but I was wondering if you could exploit their two quests as background. I'm looking for an underlying conflict, which you seem to hint at arising later. Is there a conflict between their two quests? I would think they would talk about them, share their concerns and opinions, and even if there is a conflict between the quests themselves, you can show the bond they develop over each supporting the other's quest.

Even in those quiet love times the reader needs some kind of conflict. Not necessarily him against her, which doesn't fit, but perhaps something withheld, a trepidation one is reluctant to voice but the other senses. He is naturally going to feel protective of her, and their intimacy will reveal her misgivings to him even if she tries to hide them. This sort of thing keeps the plot moving while letting these two lovers indulge their affection and deepening love-respect.

[RumpleTumbler]

Another thing-- when we're alone, we call each other ridiculous nicknames and use our own love-talk. Which is kind of like babytalk but... okay, we use bad grammar and we talk like LOLCats and "L337-speak." I think other people do this too.

lmao......think again batman.

[chartreuse]

I agree, about keeping her to a minimum. If you're having a hard time placing her in the story maybe she just isn't meant to be there.

This was my thought, too. What purpose does she serve other than a bed warmer for your MC? You describe their love story as "very important," but in what way?

What if you had him meet her for the first time on the journey, instead of having that part of their relationship consigned to backstory? That way you could get to show the "interesting stuff," and still have her present for whatever purpose she is supposed to fulfill.

[Wraith]

Wow. You guys are amazing! I'm having one epiphany after the other here! :D

Sounds normal to me!

P.S. How long have they been together? If it's more than a few years, I suggest adding grunting.
Betty: "How was your day?"
Ivanocles: "Mmmph."
:roll: :roll: Wow! that puts their relationship in a whole new light!

(Since you say 'quest' I'm envisioning a low-tech camping in the forest kind of setting, but I realize that may not be correct. So these may not quite apply, but if not you can come up with equivalents that do fit.)
Yup, that's what it is. Love your examples, thanks! It's just the kind of thing I need, only I get carried away with scenes and forget to keep that connection there.

JoNightshade: Wow, thanks for sharing that! I did think I brushed over their finding each other again too quickly, but you're giving me a whole new side of the story to develop. Thanks!

a-sharp: You're right, the story needs more of that. Their quests do clash, in a way - at least hers will create some tension at a point and a sort of jealousy building up to the climax (I hope I'll be able to pull it off). But your points are great, I think I'm pretty low on characterization when it comes to how they interact and stuff. I'll have to think this through more deeply. :)

chartreuse: Her death will be the climax of the story and a turning point; the MC goes on the journey to find her (before he finds this 'greater quest' kinda thing - but it's not actually a fantasy, that's why I have a hard time describing the story). But I will keep your advice in mind whenever I feel an urge to add pointless stuff, so thanks (and sorry for not explaining properly).

Everyone else - thanks for the advice, it's great! I'll try to make her play a more active part in the quests like Marlys said, as well as show the little things all of you suggested (and thanks for those who shared their experiences - my surroundings seem devoid of happy couples :scared:)

I really have to do something about it as it's not worth writing stuff and not enjoying it. :)

[CaroGirl]

I thought of another possibility for you. Maybe they have a "code word" upon parting that has meaning only to them. It doesn't have to be sappy. It could be something like "butterflies" because the first day they met they disturbed a thousand butterflies that flew through the air around them (I'm sure you can do better than that).

All the best!

[WittyandorIronic]

Just another example of why my husband and I are weird... He actually told me he was going to marry me the first night we went out. Romantic, huh? Well...not really, as it was because we went to a bar (of sorts) and I ordered Jack and Coke. He said I was the first girl who would ever drink whiskey with him, and he was impressed. lol
After our wedding we toasted with Jack and Coke, rather than champagne.
There are all sorts of couples out there...lol.

[Soccer Mom]

Another thing-- when we're alone, we call each other ridiculous nicknames and use our own love-talk. Which is kind of like babytalk but... okay, we use bad grammar and we talk like LOLCats and "L337-speak." I think other people do this too.

How long they've been together has a big impact on how they relate. I see big differences in Jo's 2 yo marriage and my 15 yo one.

Jo's House: I can haz kisses?

Soccer's House: Oh noes! Get on UR side of bed! No wants!

[Wraith]

I thought of another possibility for you. Maybe they have a "code word" upon parting that has meaning only to them. It doesn't have to be sappy. It could be something like "butterflies" because the first day they met they disturbed a thousand butterflies that flew through the air around them (I'm sure you can do better than that).
Yes, that would fit the strange setting of the story! I'll think about it - something random and interesting at the same time could work (I like your example too).

And Witty, that's so nice :D Yes, it seems like every couple has a weird story to tell.

[Jaycinth]

May I jump in and be a spoil sport?

Kill her.

In my current WIP, My MC is very much in love with his wife. They are a perfect couple.

And it got sappy real fast.
So I killed her.

And the story improved immeasurably.
But that is just me.

So I'll go away.


Happy one month!...come by the Caberet. (see Below) Today is 'Get Honking Drunk' Wednesday.

[Soccer Mom]

http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/128295079917657500ihavetehlook.jpg


Okay. Done derailing. Carry on.

[Wraith]

Okay. Done derailing. Carry on.

I can finally picture my MC looking at his girl! YAY!

[PeeDee]

I, for one, really LIKE reading about a couple that is in love in the book, spends the book in love, ends the book in love.

Not because it's boring, but because it's not the annoying "does he or doesn't he get her?" storyline that is resolved at the end of the book, as we ride into the sunset. And its' not the "he has her, but he's losing her" storyline.

I think it's fun to see a stable couple, who is stable (static?) and having an adventure that doesn't involve shaking or damaging or ending or beginning their relationship. I don't see it very often, but it's one dynamic that I enjoy a great deal.

Example: During the later seasons of Lois & Clark: The New Adventures of Superman, the storylines turned into these weirdo things written by writers who were being messed-with by the network. The stories were awful. But, Lois and Clark had no secrets, were married and stable, and that was one element that I thought was fascinating, underexplored perhaps, but still fascinating about those later episodes. Yes, the early season of them slowly getting together was a delight and the best of the season...but the latter seasons could have been, with that element. You see what I mean?

[ClaudiaGray]

IMHO, it sounds like you haven't made the female character anything but a love interest. Think of her as a three-dimensional person with a role to play in the story besides loving the MC. There may be bits of action or dialogue currently given to minor characters that she might prove a more interesting person to handle. When you see people actually living life together -- not just being sweet with each other -- I think the romance is substantially strengthened.

In other words, I think you need more, not less.

[melaniehoo]

I agree with expanding the female character. By showing more of her, you'll also show more aspects of the MC because he loves this woman. If they are very familiar with each other you can use them to show hidden characteristics. "She hates it when he gets so stubborn." That sort of thing.

I'm in a new marriage but I'm beginning to think we're ALL weird in private. :)

[RedScylla]

I think that the separation factor could definitely undermine any notion that they're a static or comfortable couple. Courtesy of the Marines my husband and I spent 38 months out of the first 5 years we were married separated. The getting back together times were crazy and crazy-making. We developed new interests and personality traits and habits while apart and every time we got back together, we had to readjust to each other.

Remember this class bit of writing advice: every time your MC interacts with other characters--minor and major--the relationship needs to change and evolve.

[Wraith]

PeeDee, that's an interesting view, although I'm not sure I can pull it off and make it that wonderful thing you're talking about. I'll try to, anyway. :D

Claudia and Melanie, I agree I must flesh her out more. She has her own personality and story, even a quest of her own, but that comes into play later so I'll have to build up to it and make her reveal her character more actively.
Also, I agree that everyone's a bit weird :D 'normal' is just fantasy.

I love that advice, Red! I'll print it out and stick it to my desk. You make very good points.

I once read this idea, that human relationhips are like two crossing lines: after the two get really close, closest possible, they start to distance immediately. That's too simple to be true imo, but I like the idea of a relationship constantly changing, evolving. Even from day to day, your feelings about someone change, and it'd be all wonderful if only I could write that. :D

[PeeDee]

PeeDee, that's an interesting view, although I'm not sure I can pull it off and make it that wonderful thing you're talking about. I'll try to, anyway. :D

Yeah, I have no idea how to properly pull it off either. And mostly, I just see the potential for it in places, I never see it done. It may not actually work beyond theory. :)

One thing which Stephen King did which was a very, very good idea was in Lisey's Story, when we had the private language between Lisey and Scott. That was very perceptive. It really does get that way eventually with couples, I think. Certainly, my wife and I have a huge range of phrases and words and references that are incoherent beyond each other. To put that properly into a story was impressive, I thought.

[Wraith]

Yeah, I have no idea how to properly pull it off either. And mostly, I just see the potential for it in places, I never see it done. It may not actually work beyond theory. :)

One thing which Stephen King did which was a very, very good idea was in Lisey's Story, when we had the private language between Lisey and Scott. That was very perceptive. It really does get that way eventually with couples, I think. Certainly, my wife and I have a huge range of phrases and words and references that are incoherent beyond each other. To put that properly into a story was impressive, I thought.

I didn't even think of something like that (before this thread anyway :D) I haven't read Lisey's Story, I'll have to look for it. Anyway, if there's a theory for that, it has to work at some point. :D

[AnnieColleen]

I may have something like that in my Nano novel: the two main characters many years married, still in love, with a few children.

At the beginning they're frequently separated by events, both busy with various things, but stealing whatever time together they can. At the end they're together, apart from the rest of the world, with no outside demands on them any more.

But that's not the main story. The main story is a rebellion in an occupied/annexed country, and a freedom fighter becoming a "sleeping hero" of legend. The relationship story forced its way in after I decided not to go the Braveheart route (kill off the love interest so he'll fight), and I think the story's the better for it. (I got some cool new plot elements from the interaction of the two!) But the only way it's a "boy might lose girl" story is by being a "boy might lose everything including his life from taking on a whole frickin' army" story.

[PeeDee]

I think that showing strain is natural -- and, I would guess, a bit present in your NaNo novel, Annie -- because when events come up, they can strain a marriage, since they're straining the individual. I guess I just wish I saw more books where each person in the relationship is strained, but they're still leaning on each other, you know? Lord knows when life throws us curves, the best thing my wife and I have is each other.

[Ava Jarvis]

The only relationships I can think of where separation is a calming factor and affection is constant and conflict-free are arranged marriages that never move out of the "Hi. We were put together by agreement. Let us be cordial as we raise children, but live our own separate lives side by side and try not to mix it up much" stage.

Have them write letters to each other for a while when they are on opposite sides of the continent (or whatever it is). These don't have to be letters that end up in the story, or even letters that make sense in the story. Just to see what the separation does to them.

If their lives continue as normal, there was never a deep bond between them.

It's like death, to be apart like that. Not quite death, 'cause obviously you're corresponding with the other person, but you may be quite far away if they are off on dangerous quests and may meet death. That alone ought to cause some kind of reaction.

When you love someone, you want to be near them always. You want them to be safe. Heck, this closeness is uncomfortable sometimes because it juxtaposes sometimes conflicting personalities with each other. How people deal with that flavors the relationship; sometimes you end up with the comfortable joking and teasing, verging into risque at times---the kind of stuff you may never tease strangers about, but have no problems with your spouse. It's like close friends. And sometimes you end up with on/off relationships. Sometimes a little space is needed, but the anxiety is still there.

Now, a loveless relationship, separation may be beneficial in many senses. If you are ready to fall out of love, then separation is a clarifying factor and you are not very likely to fall back in love.

Throw some tension in that relationship. Otherwise it's not the deepest one.

[Ava Jarvis]

By the way, being far away from someone you love can generate all sorts of weird displacement activities to combat the loneliness.

I've seen enough people live separate from their significant others so that one can finish school, the other can keep their career... it's very painful. Some of them react by practically never leaving work. There's a reason long distance relationships are very strained and rarely succeed.

What's fun is when the weird displacement activities are not ones that your spouse would recommend and may even look down upon.

[melaniehoo]

I spent 2 months apart from my husband before joining him in Mexico (nothing like the military folks, hats off to you) and started the separation completely devastated. I was depressed, crying, the works, when it occured to me I was reacting as if the relationship had ended. Typical break-up behavior. I reminded myself that the distance was temporary and while it stick sucked, I was able to get through it without the desperation.

Bad side - our first cell bill was $1000! eek!

[Doodlebug]

Just a thought, but how do you, as a writer, feel about the lady in particular and the relationship in general? Are you dying for the two of your characters to be together or could you care less? IMHO, if you aren't eager to have them together, your readers won't be either.

As many others on this thread have said, if the lady is just a bedwarmer and the relationship is stale, then do something to spice it up. Does she, perhaps, resent the fact that her inamorato was apart from her for so long? Has she fallen in love with someone else in the meantime? Was she pregnant? Or has the man moved on his life so that he is no longer in love with the lady? Or does he have some shameful secret?

When I write, I do what I can to create tension in the story, so that the reader always wants to know 'What happens next?' Putting characters in peril (even in their love lives) is generally a good thing because it creates tension. Sex, as David Maass (I think it was he) said, is a tension breaker.

Anyway, just a few cents of advice to add to the general pot. :D

[Wraith]

Just a thought, but how do you, as a writer, feel about the lady in particular and the relationship in general? Are you dying for the two of your characters to be together or could you care less? IMHO, if you aren't eager to have them together, your readers won't be either.


I'm not really eager about writing their happy times, indeed. :D The lady I like, she's quite a powerful character in my mind, only doesn't get to show it a lot. But you make great points and I'll try to make it all more interesting. It seems like I jumped into this without any kind of consideration for human feelings :D I now realise it could actually turn out quite dynamic. Now the writing bit of it, that's the tricky one... :scared:

[PeeDee]

The actual process of a coming together of a man and a woman -- when they actually start getting along, or at least, are not creeped out by each other -- is fun to write and read about. I get really bored at whispy fantasy heroines who clutch hands to their bosoms and are just waiting around to be bedded. Snooze. Give me an interesting woman who is the star of the story, or who could very nearly be one.

Give her a strong story and a personality, give him the same, and if they come together as a result...wonderful. If not, that's life too. In my Rome novel, the love story is inrequited love and I'm delighting in writing it.

[Gray Rose]

Lois M. Bujold in the Sharing Knife: Legacy writes about a happily married couple. They face a lot of adversities, including both the bride and the groom's families who are less than thrilled with the marriage, but the dynamic between them is very loving. Some of the things they do for each other involve eating new foods together, massages, and sock knitting. It is very endearing.

Why not try to take a scene you already wrote and rewrite it from your heroine's point of view? That's what I do when I feel that a certain character did not get sufficiently independent voice, and it works for me every time. A separate strong story is not necessary imho, but it is important that we get to know and like the heroine, because we need to care about the hero's predicament when he loses her.

Hope that helped :)

[Pamster]

In my first novel I have the MC fall in love in time with a girl he meets online and goes to a gathering of friends online in person. There they meet and fall in love for real. It's a little insecure in the beginning but it works out and she moves to be with him. I think I did it justice in my book, but then one never really knows until you've had it sold and read by a large group of people. ;)

Great topic Wraith. ;) Lots of good answers too. :D

[Doodlebug]

Why not try to take a scene you already wrote and rewrite it from your heroine's point of view? That's what I do when I feel that a certain character did not get sufficiently independent voice, and it works for me every time. A separate strong story is not necessary imho, but it is important that we get to know and like the heroine, because we need to care about the hero's predicament when he loses her.

That's really good advice! Wish I would have thought of it before. Thanks for sharing.

[AnnieColleen]

I'm not really eager about writing their happy times, indeed. :D The lady I like, she's quite a powerful character in my mind, only doesn't get to show it a lot. But you make great points and I'll try to make it all more interesting. It seems like I jumped into this without any kind of consideration for human feelings :D I now realise it could actually turn out quite dynamic. Now the writing bit of it, that's the tricky one... :scared:

Try looking at what her goals/fears/desires are during the happy time. Then figure out either how those things would bring her into prominence for certain scenes, or how they would affect the MC as he goes about his business. Thinking of couples I know, there are a lot of little connections between them that, were I writing about them, aren't the obvious kinds of things I would mention in a story, but those details can make for great character tidbits to slip in and really deepen the story.

[wee]

Maybe a tiny subplot problem? Like he was worried about bringing her along, then starts thinking she is dead weight & wondering what to do, then she solves a problem for him & he sees her in a new way. Not anything that would affect the later plot, but little things. Or maybe through her reaction to him in a certain situation, something is revealed about his character or forces him to grow/change in some little way.

Otherwise, why did she enter the plot so soon, if there is no real point to her yet?

I've been married for almost 8 years now & our "love story" is never static for more than a day or two. Then again, we both bore easily & we make our own trouble. :D

wee

[PeeDee]

I absolutely hated the last Harry Potter book's portrayal of the romances between Harry and Ginny, as well as Hermione and Ron. They're hormone-ridden teens and there's basically nothing but jealousy. Very disappointing.

As opposed to the emotional depth and other qualities of love exhibited by real teenagers. Honestly, the only thing Rowling forgot was the free-style angsty poetry... :)

[Ava Jarvis]

As opposed to the emotional depth and other qualities of love exhibited by real teenagers. Honestly, the only thing Rowling forgot was the free-style angsty poetry... :)

:ROFL::roll::ROFL:

That's so true!

[Pamster]

As opposed to the emotional depth and other qualities of love exhibited by real teenagers. Honestly, the only thing Rowling forgot was the free-style angsty poetry... :)


:roll: :ROFL: So true, I agree with Ava Jarvis on that one! ;) :D

[PeeDee]

lol. I'd hate to see your teenagers. Mine are wonderful. My comment was that they're hormone-ridden, but she didn't portray that very well for Harry or Ginny. Very disappointing.

I'd hate to see my teenagers too. Fortunately, I haven't got any. Some teenagers are wonderful. And others wind up on MySpace. :)

Ah well. Anyway...

[PeeDee]

lol. Well, I'm sure they would be okay... We homeschool ours--keep them out of the public zoo. I'm trying to think of a novel where the teenage romance was pretty true to real life and I can't think of one. I see, however, that there are a lot of JK Rowling fans here not too happy at my remark. :D

It didn't bother me any, I was just taking a happy jab at teenagers. It's the butter of my life.

I was homeschooled myself (the more you know...) although the reasoning for it was at first because we were in and out of countries too much and later, because public schools are, as you say, zoos.

Actually, the absolute best example of a properly done child/teenage romance I've ever seen -- and it has not been bested -- was the book Bridge To Terabithia. The movie did it okay too, but the book? Spot on.

(for the record, I mostly agree with you on Harry Potter. I thought that, all of a sudden in book seven, we had what felt like an extremely awkward and shoehorned romantic story pop up. It was weird.)

[Wraith]

Why not try to take a scene you already wrote and rewrite it from your heroine's point of view? That's what I do when I feel that a certain character did not get sufficiently independent voice, and it works for me every time. A separate strong story is not necessary imho, but it is important that we get to know and like the heroine, because we need to care about the hero's predicament when he loses her.
I'll definitely take that advice. Even if the scenes don't show in the story, it will help a lot to see the MC through her eyes. Great, great idea. Yay. :D

Otherwise, why did she enter the plot so soon, if there is no real point to her yet?
Wow. Please excuse me as I pick up my jaw and smack myself on the head.

I think it's the outline's fault, but I simply didn't ask myself this question. It's obvious he has to meet her, and that they have to be together for a while so that the reader gets to care about them being together until she dies (that was my first reason for it), but I can see how her coming in later in the story would improve it a lot. I think. I have to think this over, but simply answering this question no matter the way will improve my story.

Gosh, this is amazing. After all a shorter time to spend together could be even more intense. I could focus on them more, building up the passion. She could get more screentime. It's not even a lot of work to rewrite!

If I decide to keep it as it is, I'll definitely take your other advices. Thanks wee!

I think if it comes from your heart and you enjoy reading it yourself, then it probably isn't as bad as you think. My teens read my books and they're great at giving me ideas and encouragement. (They'd rather read my stuff than anything that's published, which is a real ego booster because we read a lot. Amazon sends us freebies at the end of the year because we buy so much.)
You make wonderful points! I need to think of the little things more. :) Also, it's so nice, what you and your teens do. I'm a bit scared at the thought that my future kids might not like to read :eek:!

On the teen stuff... I think Rowling went idealistic, really. I mean, all the jealousy and bickering aside, they get married at the end! :eek: I should also mention that my fear of static couples may be derived from Harry and Ginny. I hated that couple with a passion, especially in the 6th book.

And PeeDee, don't you go around thinking that if you're a mod you can now have a go at teens wherever you like! :tongue (Or maybe the arrgh in the title reminded you of them?)

Haven't read the Bridge to Terabithia, but I heard something about the ending being really sad. But I'm sure it's beautiful, from what I've heard.

[Doodlebug]

Ok, I just read this on Amazon and am now afraid to let my kids read it.

"In 1976, Katherine Paterson's son David was 8 years old when his friend, Lisa Hill, was struck by lightning and killed. A year later Bridge to Terabithia was published, winning a Newberry Medal and becoming, if such a thing is possible, an instant classic. Ms Paterson drew upon this personal tragedy to create the story of a boy, Jess Aarons, and a girl, Leslie Burke, in rural Virginia, who become the best of friends."

Do you mind telling me what the terrible tragedy is? We like happy endings in our home (we've had enough of the other kind).

Terebinthia is one of the most beautiful books I've ever read. Is it sad? Yes. For sure. I cry every time I read it. But it is hopeless? No. The book ends with a note of grace. (Sorry- I just can't make myself give away the ending. It goes against everything I believe in to spoil an ending ;)) I had the priviledge of hearing Ms. Paterson give a talk about the book. She was facing a lot of problems in her own life when she wrote it and her pain is evident, but this is a children's book, and she remembers that when she writes. If you're curious, rent the movie (not as good as the book but not bad) and decide for yourself.

:rant: *** RANT WARNING*** :rant:

Just a note... as a teacher married to a public school teacher, and whose kids go to the local ps, I really bristled at the 'public zoo' jibe. I'm sure that no one meant it in a mean way, but it hit a nerve.

[PeeDee]

It's a sad ending, I'll tell you that. It's not as sensational as the description of her life makes it sound. No one gets zapped by lightning. But something sad does happening.

It broke my heart when I was a very young man. It breaks my heart every time. But I won't tell you the ending because it's too good an ending to give away freely.

Please do read it. Then see if you want your kids reading it. I recommend it wholeheartedly, and I don't do that with too many books. If nothing else, watch what was a really faithful (and badly advertised) movie adaptation.

[PeeDee]

Just a note... as a teacher married to a public school teacher, and whose kids go to the local ps, I really bristled at the 'public zoo' jibe. I'm sure that no one meant it in a mean way, but it hit a nerve.

Me mam WAS the school in some places where schooling wasn't exactly top priority for the local mobs. The Virgin Islands have improved muchly, but when we lived on St. Croix, there were a couple of schools and she ran one of them (FUN TRIVIA FACT: I went to school with basketball player Tim Duncan).

There are good things in public schools. There are bad things. But that's true to most things in life.

And that's probably topic for another thread... :)

[Shadow_Ferret]

I was homeschooled myself (the more you know...) although the reasoning for it was at first because we were in and out of countries too much and later, because public schools are, as you say, zoos.


Ah, homeschooled. This explains a lot.

Just a note... as a teacher married to a public school teacher, and whose kids go to the local ps, I really bristled at the 'public zoo' jibe. I'm sure that no one meant it in a mean way, but it hit a nerve.
Not sure why it strikes a nerve. Public schools ARE a zoo. Has nothing to do with the quality or dedication of the teachers but everything to do with the administration, lack of parental involvement, and oversized classrooms.

[PeeDee]

Ah, homeschooled. This explains a lot.


That's why I have been careful never to talk about it (and will continue not to do so). There are too many homeschooling families who are one nutbar away from becoming a Waco cult for me to be comfortable admitting it.

In fact, if it hadn't already been referenced and been up for awhile, I would consider deleting that post of mine.

[PeeDee]

Yes, there are many and we try to avoid them. There are many advantages to homeschooling, but by far the best is the amount of time you get to spend reading with each other. Surely, everyone on this board can appreciate that. :D (And we're not wackos, not yet. :) )

Agreed. Reading is a benefit. I read a lot of books I might not have had otherwise.

aaaand, we rejoin this thread we have derailed, already in progress. Love in novels!

[Doodlebug]

Yes, there are many and we try to avoid them. There are many advantages to homeschooling, but by far the best is the amount of time you get to spend reading with each other. Surely, everyone on this board can appreciate that. :D (And we're not wackos, not yet. :) )


I guess we've moved on from love in novels to loving novels. Boy, that could be a thread all its own...and probably is.

As for love in novels...I really liked Wee's sage advice about having the character arrive in the story too early. I love the build-up to a good love story almost more than the actual thing.

[c.e.lawson]

Ok, I'm in serious need of help here. My wip is not a romance by any means but there's a very important love story in it, which I just can't pull off. :Headbang: I've read all past discussions of love scenes here (and it helped a great deal), but I'm still confused.

So, my MC goes on a journey and retrieves his lost lover somewhere on the way, and they go forth together (she has a quest as well). But their story, as in meeting, falling in love, breaking up for a while (all the interesting stuff :D) is backstory that the reader will only get a glimpse of; what happens here is the quiet, happy sort of love of a 'perfect' couple (although their relationship will change dramatically, but only later). So until things start to worsen, I have to write them being together, but it's still my MC's story - so almost all scenes focus on him and I seem to forget the woman (she hardly gets any lines), then I insert a tender scene between the two, then I forget her again. That sounds awful doesn't it? Well, it is, and I don't know how to make their love present at all times through hints and other stuff. It's hard that they're together all the time...

Maybe it's the fact that I hate writing/reading 'static' couples (are there any in real life?) and I can't give a direction to their relationship at the time. I dunno. Any suggestions on how to reconcile the main plot and the love story?

If I've confused you or you have no idea, feel free to ramble about your own ways of writing love. That could be of help too, since I seem to be generally terrible at that. :rolleyes:

Also, as a side note, today is my one-month AW anniversary, so please raise your Martinis/Cokes/mineral water/cups of bitterness :snoopy:yay!

Hi Wraith,

I would suggest that you think for a bit about what the love interest means to your MC - what he needs from her, what he gets from the relationship, why he loves her, what she does that makes him happy, how he feels towards her etc. and then you can show little behaviors between the two of them that illustrate those things. For instance, is her support of him important to him? If so, you might describe something subtle that she does in the midst of something he's finding difficult - a behavior or signal or dialogue that shows her support and bolsters him, to give just one example. This could go so many ways. But instead of trying to write separate little scenes that "show" them "in love", you can incorporate these sorts of aspects of their relationship right into the story in little ways.

[Ava Jarvis]

(for the record, I mostly agree with you on Harry Potter. I thought that, all of a sudden in book seven, we had what felt like an extremely awkward and shoehorned romantic story pop up. It was weird.)

It didn't feel that way to me. It had been there for the last two f'ing books.

Plus, there was a war on. That tends to do weird things to people, like accelerate relationships....

[RumpleTumbler]

For all of the JK Rowling fans, here's a shocker:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071020/ap_on_en_ot/books_harry_potter

What? I guess I need to read the series, I'd have never gotten that from the movies.

[Doodlebug]

For all of the JK Rowling fans, here's a shocker:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071020/ap_on_en_ot/books_harry_potter


Wow...the fan fic indeed! Talk about love interests.

Way to go, Ms. Rowling.

*claps, cheers, and whistles loudly*