Ellora's Cave Publishing, Inc.

[veingloree]

Ellora's Cave seem like a nice small publisher, e-books and some paperbacks. They aren't listed in eds&preds, I just wondered if anyone had info about them.

[thorgunna]

Well, somehow...Ellora's Cave hit the big time last year. Over 2 million dollars in sales. The company was featured on the cover of Romantic Times magazine a few months ago. They seem to be a solid company with a bright future in the publication of "romantica."

Peg

[James D Macdonald]

Ellora's Cave was the first e-book publisher to be listed by RWA as a RITA eligible publisher.

<a href="http://www.rwanational.org/pub_links.cfm" target="_new">www.rwanational.org/pub_links.cfm</a>

A RITA-eligible publisher is defined as a non-subsidy, non-vanity publisher that has released books on a regular basis via national distribution for a minimum of one year and has sold a minimum of 1,500 hardcover/trade paperback copies or 5,000 copies of any other format of a single fiction book or a novella or collection of novellas in book form.

[DaveKuzminski]

Actually, they are listed. However, the sites P&E are hosted upon had some difficulties in the last few months, thankfully not both at the same time. As well, P&E also had to replace its computer. That might have something to do with why some pages do not show some listings that I know were posted. Regardless, P&E is dutifully checking all of its pages against the master copy on its computer to assure that those are all up to date. We've found two pages so far that were missing data and have corrected those.

[SRHowen]

Dave, or anyone else, do you know if Elora's Cave pays an advance?

Shawn

[ncq13]

They are the only Ebook publisher that the RWA recognizes, they have over 50,000 hits on their website a day, and have a decent royalty. PLUS, rumor has it they are putting their books in paperback and have a decent distribution. I do not see mention of an advance, nor have I heard of one, however, their royalties are monthly.

(I have been looking into pitching my latest to them)

[AnneMarble]

PLUS, rumor has it they are putting their books in paperback and have a decent distribution.

My local Borders has started carrying Ellora's Cave paperbacks. They stock them in the romance section, along with the other trade paperbacks. (Right now, most of the erotic romances are published in trade paperback anyway, including those by the major houses.) They had quite a few of them, both anthologies and novels/novellas. (Authors include Jaid Black and Lora Leigh.) The shorter books were priced around $12.49, the longer ones (such as the anthologies) were priced around $15.00.

I don't know if this will catch on. The Ellora's Cave covers don't measure up to the covers from, say, Kensington's Brava line. (The Ellora's Cave covers often look fine on a web page but not as good on a large format book.) Also, people are generally hesitant about spending $12.49 for a thin trade paperback by an author they've never heard of. Then again, who knows? Some of the big publishers are putting out short erotic romance trade paperbacks by unknown authors, and maybe they're getting sales.

[veingloree]

Ellora's cave have great stuff. Like many e-publishers their illustrators are not exactly up to the standard of their writers... I wonder why?

[SRHowen]

They did make a deal with Walden Books and Borders. They do POD, and from what I can find their authors get paid very well, and get paid monthly. I just couldn't find anything about an advance--so was wondering what people knew of one.

Thanks,

Shawn

[Kate Nepveu]

I was in Borders a few weeks ago, and they had *lots* of Ellora's Cave trade paperbacks on their shelves.

I was looking for something specific, so didn't browse them, but I remembered this thread and thought I'd add a data point.

[Kree Atv Khurz]

About July, 04, their website said they were considering mainstream fiction and non-fiction. I sent a query and a chapter, which they acknowledged, but never heard more. Now almost a year later, I see they have taken out the line on their site about expanding. It is still romantica, with required erotica in plain language. Certainly promising in the POD future, perhaps the most; look what sex did for the lowly desktop computer. Good luck, Kree

[veinglory]

In the end I tried a couple of the more minor epublishers and final placed my novella with Loose-Id where it is doing very nicely. I am also working on a website to help people compare the many e-publishers of erotic romance. Still in the early stages but you can find it here: http://www.veinglory.com/p.html

[pepperlandgirl]

Yeah, Kree, they told me to submit my novel, "New Frontier" to their mainstream line (probably because it took 10,000 words before the actualy intercourse started....) and then I waited for about 8 months before I got impatient, withdrew submission, and sent it to Liquid Silver....who made me an offer a mere 3 months after submission.

[Kree Atv Khurz]

I hope your NEW FRONTIER does well. Thanks for the update. I'm still struggling, but have that nagging feeling that all agents have just left for their 6-months summer vacation. I will look up Liquid Silver, but I may not qualify as I don't even mention sex till 100,000 words. But when I do.......WOW!
Kree.

[Jennifer Robins]

I read on their site that they want rights for the entire term of the copy right. I don't think that is a good thing.

Jennifer Robins

[Stacia Kane]

I read on their site that they want rights for the entire term of the copy right. I don't think that is a good thing.

Jennifer Robins


Contracts are generally negotiable.

[CaoPaux]

Adding link: http://www.ellorascave.com/

[veinglory]

How embarrassing. You just showed the world again that three years ago I couldn't even spell the name of the top erotic romance epublisher. Someone lend me a rock to crawl under. ;)

[Medievalist]

How embarrassing. You just showed the world again that three years ago I couldn't even spell the name of the top erotic romance epublisher. Someone lend me a rock to crawl under. ;)

Looks fine to me ... :D

[veinglory]

"somebody" musta fixed it :)

[CaoPaux]

How embarrassing. You just showed the world again that three years ago I couldn't even spell the name of the top erotic romance epublisher. Someone lend me a rock to crawl under. ;)You've come a long way, baby. :D *flees for life*

[veinglory]

Riding the erotic-romance genre wave ;)

[kristin724]

Everyon keeps mentioning that contracts are made to negotiate. Has anyone actually negotiated EC down from their all lifetime high horse? Who hasn't and late had an issue with it? How did EC make it this far with such a clause?

[veinglory]

I have this only informally, but the word is sometimes they negotiate and sometimes they don't. I'd be more than happy to give it the old college try if I ever get around to writing something suitable for them. Lifetime rights don't bother me much given that the work remains available and I would have no other plans for it. I would look at the clause relating to right of refusal on future works under the same contract.

[David I]

Hmm. Is it just me, or have I seen publishers shredded on this forum for lesser sins than lifetime copyright?

Just asking.

[Jersey Chick]

It depends on what those sins are.

[veinglory]

Everything gets discussed, all the time. It's a forum. And even having just said I don't personally sweat long terms, it isn't a good thing--and I did considerately point out an issue with their contract I hated more. Ah, feel the love.

[Dai Alanye]

Hmm. Is it just me, or have I seen publishers shredded on this forum for lesser sins than lifetime copyright?

Yeah, but those publishers weren't getting into the big book chains. All animals are equal but…

[Stacia Kane]

Everyon keeps mentioning that contracts are made to negotiate. Has anyone actually negotiated EC down from their all lifetime high horse? Who hasn't and late had an issue with it? How did EC make it this far with such a clause?

I personally know several people who negotiated down from lifetime rights, and they only changed the terms to lifetime a year or so ago (if memory serves).

[smlgr8]

As I recall from my own contract there was only one or two things EC says are not negotiable one of which was royalties. I believe the lifetime rights option was open for negotiating.

[James D. Macdonald]

You'd have to be nuts in the head to sign a contract that gave up lifetime (or "for the term of copyright") rights.

[victoriastrauss]

I read on their site that they want rights for the entire term of the copy right. I don't think that is a good thing.
That's standard print publishing contract language. As long as it's balanced by a good out of print/rights reversion clause (which should tie the publisher's OOP declaration to minimum sales or royalties, and provide a specific procedure through which writers can demand their rights back), it's not a problem. It only becomes problematic if the reversion language is vague or nonstandard, or if the OOP declaration is left solely to the publisher's discretion.

I would guess that EC made the change to life-of-copyright because it's doing so much print these days.

For ebook contracts, on the other hand, or publishers that are exclusively digital, it's much better to have a limited term.

- Victoria

[kristin724]

Thanks James, I thought I was going crazy thinking I was alone! Well, Whether I'm crazy or not is another story 80)

So, EC just upped the anti to all lifetime forever copyright rights once they reached Everest? I just don't think my intellectual property is worth them doing what they will. It's like adoption with no contact, Ever.

I am curious as the what the WA's think on this, but I am clueless at legalese. Isn't EC RWA recognized? And EPIC?

[Jersey Chick]

RWA doesn't recognize publishers any longer. They've changed it to Non-Vanity/Non-Subsidy - but the criteria for gaining PAN membership has changed.

As for EPIC, their standards allow for self-published authors to join, so they are a little looser. They make no mention of copyright, but list a Right of First Refusal clause as a red flag. RWA and EPIC don't necessarily have the same criteria where publishers are concerned.

[Stacia Kane]

Thanks James, I thought I was going crazy thinking I was alone! Well, Whether I'm crazy or not is another story 80)

So, EC just upped the anti to all lifetime forever copyright rights once they reached Everest? I just don't think my intellectual property is worth them doing what they will. It's like adoption with no contact, Ever.

I am curious as the what the WA's think on this, but I am clueless at legalese. Isn't EC RWA recognized? And EPIC?


No, EC upped the ante to lifetime copyrights when they revised their standard contract. If you're not happy with it, you can negotiate it. I'm really confused as to why so many people are not understanding this. Lots of publishers include clauses in their standard contracts that aren't ideal; lots of them allow authors or their agents to negotiate.

(The only place the lifetime copyright isn't negotiable is on the Cavemen anthos, because EC wants the stories to stay together and the anthos are extremely popular and stay in print forever, basically.)

I don't want to come off like an EC cheerleader. I am very happy with them, but no company is perfect and I would never claim some people haven't had different experiences or that people should just accept what they're given. But I really don't understand where the vituperation is coming from on this, when it's not set in stone.

[victoriastrauss]

So, EC just upped the anti to all lifetime forever copyright rights once they reached Everest? I just don't think my intellectual property is worth them doing what they will.
Once again, it is not "all lifetime forever." For that, you'd have to transfer your copyright to the publisher, which is not what's happening here.

A life-of-copyright clause, when balanced by a reasonable reversion clause, simply gives the publisher the right to keep the book in print for as long as the book is selling. Publishers do tend to hold onto rights longer than they should--which is why reversion clauses should include specific provisions that allow authors to demand their rights back. But it doesn't benefit the publisher, any more than it does the author, to hold rights "forever." That is not the intent of life-of-copyright clauses.

If you don't like life-of-copyright, you're going to have some trouble if you get an offer from a commercial print publisher. In the commercial print world, life-of-copyright contracts are standard.

- Victoria

[priceless1]

Publishers do tend to hold onto rights longer than they should--
Just wanted to shed a wee bit of light as to one particular reason why publishers do this. Publishers keep a book that may not have sold well the first time around but feel it may have a new life if trends change. As an example, the DaVinci Code knock-offs appeared out of the woodwork like magic. Many of those books were ramrodded through editing, but a number of them were re-releases that publishers had kept around for just such an occasion. Invariably the contract states that they retain all rights while the book is in print. To get around that clause, they'll print up 1,000 copies or so and destroy most of them.

[LindyBird]

I am a newbie to the core. My first manuscript is near completion, and now it's time to start the search for an agent or publisher.

To anyone who has dealt with EC, would you, or would you not, recommend submitting to them? Or, is my best bet to try and find an agent?

[Stacia Kane]

Lindy, that really depends on what you write and what you're looking for. PM me if you like; I'm multi-published with EC and quite happy wth them, and I'll answer any questions you may have.

[Glenda]

I have submitted to them and I'm crossing fingers and holding my breath with a prayer, waiting for a reply. :)

[LindyBird]

Good luck, Glenda! Keep us updated!

[LindyBird]

I'm not sure where to post this, but since I'm wanting to submit to EC, I thought I'd post it here.

I read that critique partners are a good idea before submitting work to an agent or publlisher. Does anyone know of a thread on AW regarding this topic or know anywhere to find a partner?

Any help would be much appreciated!

[Jersey Chick]

You can post in SYW (Share Your Work)- but if it's erotic, you might want to check out the erotica sub-forum (you'll have to PM a mod for the password.) I don't know if you'll find a critique parnter, per se, but you might get some very useful feedback.

[victoriastrauss]

Possible storm warning for Ellora's Cave: Jasmine-Jade Enterprises, which owns both EC and Cerridwen Press, is suing Borders (http://tinyurl.com/8ldeae) for "excessive" orders. It's also suing Baker & Taylor for "conspiring" with Borders.

- Victoria

[priceless1]

Possible storm warning for Ellora's Cave: Jasmine-Jade Enterprises, which owns both EC and Cerridwen Press, is suing Borders (http://tinyurl.com/8ldeae) for "excessive" orders. It's also suing Baker & Taylor for "conspiring" with Borders.

- Victoria
Victoria, I blogged about this (http://behlerblog.blogspot.com/2009/01/its-its-not-my-fault.html) yesterday and have offered up my observations from this side of the desk. For what it's worth, this lawsuit is the dumbest thing to come down the pike, and they'll have their hats handed to them.

[Jersey Chick]

There's an interesting thread of comments on this over at Dear Author (http://dearauthor.com/wordpress/2009/01/08/elloras-cave-sues-borders-for-1000000/). Some of the comments are pretty interesting, but since a lot of them are also anonymous (some for pretty good reasons, though) it's hard to take them as complete truth.

[victoriastrauss]

My hunch is to agree with the Dear Author commenters who feel that the suit is a sign of trouble at EC. If I were an EC author, I'd be worried right now.

- Victoria

[DeleyanLee]

Thanks for the warning. I had a request for a full from them and now I'm reconsidering it.

Sorry to see them in trouble, though. I have friends who've been very happy with them for a long time and have enjoyed the books I've gotten from them.

[Jersey Chick]

I would agree to - and I fully understand why some anonymouses (anonymi???) are remaining such. I know a few EC authors who've been happy with them as well. It should be interesting to see how this plays out.

[priceless1]

My hunch is to agree with the Dear Author commenters who feel that the suit is a sign of trouble at EC. If I were an EC author, I'd be worried right now.

- Victoria
Agreed. What this boils down to is that J-J doesn't want to accept responsibility for their own stupidity. Every publisher with a pulse understands that books can and will be returned, and it's the smart ones who evaluate each PO that comes in from a bookstore account. If they feel the order number is too high, their sales teams contact the account and have them rewrite the order for a smaller number.

Stores can always order more books if they sell out. Orders are based on the publisher's and author's PR plan. But what happens is inexperienced publishers are more concerned with getting as much stock on as many shelves as possible and forget about the downside; returns. It's expensive as hell and can easily bankrupt a small publisher.

[para]

My god, I'm having Triskelion flashbacks.

[Jersey Chick]

This was my first thought as well. Here we go again. I hope it doesn't happen, though.

[Stacia Kane]

This is certainly a situation to keep an eye on, yes, and to be concerned about or at least aware of. But I doubt it's a Triskelion-style overnight meltdown. Unlike Trisk, EC was actually very profitable before they went into print.

I'm not saying it won't happen, just that I don't believe EC is circling the drain quite yet.

[Jersey Chick]

Okay, I'll reword. :)

Done.

Although, I have to wonder (along with DA) how EC expects to collect if they win, seeing as how far in the hole Borders already is.

[para]

Borders has got what $435m of debt? Even if EC wins surely they'll be way, way at the back of the queue?

Crikey have you seen the Owner's postings on the Dear Author thread? I think it would have been much better if EC maintained a dignified silence on this, and didn't go posting on reader blogs.

[Saskatoonistan]

It's all legal baiting and nothing more to try and get Borders to back off on their policy. In Canada we have Chapters/Indigo - big box book stores blow.

[priceless1]

I think it's a little premature to say "It's not looking too good..."

This is certainly a situation to keep an eye on, yes, and to be concerned about or at least aware of. But I doubt it's a Triskelion-style overnight meltdown.

I agree, Quinny. I think J-J freaked at their huge returns, as most new publishers do, and realized they are now in serious arrears and are looking for someone to blame rather than looking in the mirror. The lawsuit is BS, but that isn't going to help their bottom line. They're going to need a bailout in order to pay their distributor back.
Unlike Trisk, EC was actually very profitable before they went into print.
The problem is that e-publishing is way different from the print world and operates under a different business and promotional plan. I've seen a number of small publishers storm to get a gazillion books on the shelves and forget that every one of those books are dependent upon strong marketing and author promotion that will create demand. Frankly, tho I can't prove it, I suspect this is exactly what is plaguing Kunati as well, given the plethora of insider info I've received.

[Stacia Kane]

It's all legal baiting and nothing more to try and get Borders to back off on their policy. In Canada we have Chapters/Indigo - big box book stores blow.

This was my thought as well. Either that or it's a precaution against Borders' possible bankruptcy; making sure their claim is in before the filing.

That is pure conjecture on my part. I know next to nothing about bankruptcy in general and absolutely nothing about this case in particular.

[priceless1]

It's all legal baiting and nothing more to try and get Borders to back off on their policy.
What policy? See, that's the problem with this lawsuit. They're claiming that Borders (a pathetically poorly run enterprise) is ordering huge numbers of books on purpose, and colluding with B&T, and it's bogus. No genre buyer orders gajillions of books willy nilly because it bites into their seasonal budget. Orders are placed based on what those genre buyers feel will realistically sell.It's the publisher's job to analyze whether that PO is too high. They failed to do this and got slammed with huge returns. Now they're looking for someone to blame.

This is a nuisance suit. Those who deal with selling books every day see J-J as hackers. Their tribulations were absolutely preventable. We and many other small presses are living proof of that.

[Nefertiti Baker]

I've felt for a while that EC was kinda...I don't know, off? It's just the little things (and some birdies in my ear). Lots of people getting royalty checks under $100. Huge amounts of new books put out every month, with very little focus on author development. Hackneyed cover design, when other epubs are blowing them out of the water (helloooo, LooseId!). Typos and bad editing all over the place in their print stuff, along with some AWFUL stories that should have never made it to print (to me and some others, EC has become the go-to place for TSTL heroines).

One big thing, though? The fact that there's no new calendar. I know, I know...I'm not saying it because of my love of the meatheads inside, but because the EC calendar has been something that was a standard marketing tool. But...well, you don't give away calendars for 2009 at just 2009 RT. Makes no sense. They either don't have it all together, or can't afford to pay the guys to do it. It was something that should have been out in the fall of 2008.

It's just the little things. Maybe I'm nuts.

[Jersey Chick]

That thread's got a bit of hostility running through it, eh? Yikes...

Yeah - I took back my words - it is a bit premature and I hope it stays that way. I'd hate to see another publisher go the way of Trisk.

[IceCreamEmpress]

This was my thought as well. Either that or it's a precaution against Borders' possible bankruptcy; making sure their claim is in before the filing.

If that is the strategy, the EC management is hopelessly mistaken about how business negotiations work, and/or even more hopelessly mistaken about how bankruptcy settlements work.

And the "Dear Author" stuff is mind-blowing. Mind-blowing.

[Nefertiti Baker]

It's something to behold. Yeah, there are a lot of anons, but when the anons have common stories, and you have actual NAMED posters backing it up...eeek.

[Jersey Chick]

I think there's enough corroboration (assuming most anons are individual anons, of course) plus the publisher's response, to think there's definitely something to the anon complaints. Especially considering some are backed up by not-so-anon complaints.

[Sakamonda]

Although EC's ebook division is quite profitable, I have multiple contacts in the book trade (some of them my former coworkers when I worked directly w/ Baker & Taylor back when I was an acquisitions librarian) that they are absolutely losing their shirts (and their pants, and their underwear) on their badly mismanaged print division. I don't know what the actual numbers are, of course, but I suspect the losses on their print side could indeed be sucking up a decent chunk of their ebook profits. Hopefully not enough to put them under, but in this economy, anything's possible.

I had an opportunity to be published by them that I chose not to pursue because of this, and am instead working with another epublisher that while it is a startup, is run by people with decades of combined experience in traditional publishing.

I think EC made a big mistake when they a) not only took on the costs of printing/publishing their print books themselves (instead of selling print rights to an established print publisher), they b) refused to work with Ingram/B&T and tried to distribute the books themselves. That's just nuts. No wonder bookstores stopped working w/ them.

I agree, this is a nuisance suit. ANd even if it weren't, when Borders files bankruptcy, they would have no claim as a creditor unless there was a judgement already entered against Borders in their favor. And judgements are frequently discharged in US bankruptcies---one of the No. 1 reasons for filing them, in fact.

[michael_b]

And people wonder why I'm not rushing Shadowfire Press into doing print. I know better. I used to run a small press print zine back in the day. There were no returns to deal with, but selling out issues wasn't easy then, and I don't imagine selling out print runs on books is any easier now.

I was in our local Barnes and Noble the other day and did see three or four EC books on the shelves, but I recall seeing a much larger number of their books on shelves a year ago.

[para]

I notice there is now a comment about the last royalty payment being late on the DA thread.

[Stacia Kane]

I agree, Quinny. I think J-J freaked at their huge returns, as most new publishers do, and realized they are now in serious arrears and are looking for someone to blame rather than looking in the mirror. The lawsuit is BS, but that isn't going to help their bottom line. They're going to need a bailout in order to pay their distributor back.

The problem is that e-publishing is way different from the print world and operates under a different business and promotional plan. I've seen a number of small publishers storm to get a gazillion books on the shelves and forget that every one of those books are dependent upon strong marketing and author promotion that will create demand. Frankly, tho I can't prove it, I suspect this is exactly what is plaguing Kunati as well, given the plethora of insider info I've received.

Oh, absolutely.

I do want to make clear I wasn't saying this wasn't a situation to watch or that it doesn't concern me, or being an "EC is great and you don't know what you're talking about" cheerleader. I don't know what the situation is, at all.

All I do know is my October release (which was technically November as it came out after the royalty period had ended) was my most successful solo release ever, and my December sales were quite good too. So there is money coming in still on the ebook side.

That was not really the case with Trisk; their ebook side had--according to anecdotal evidence and my own experience, at least--not been doing well for at least six months before they declared bankruptcy. And when I say "Not well" I'm talking about books not selling more than five or six copies in that six months. MANY books. Like, over half of their releases. Nobody was buying Trisk ebooks and not many people were buying their print books; part of the reason they were disinvited to RWA was because of their habit of strongly encouraging authors to buy their own books and encouraging authors without print books to "support Trisk" by buying any Trisk print books they found in stores. And by "encouraging" I mean "informing them it was their duty".

And while the DA thread is interesting, to me it's really only "news" if you weren't already aware that EC's print program stinks and has for some time. :) I've always been generally happy at EC and been treated well, but I've always thought their print program blows. ;)

Unless you're one of the authors involved in the deal with Pocket, at least. The EC/Pocket program is still going strong afaik.


Oh, and again, my comment re the suit was just conjecture. I don't know anything about it, at all. If I made a mistake about how the system works, it was MY mistake, so please don't attribute it to EC.

[mlhernandez]

I notice there is now a comment about the last royalty payment being late on the DA thread.

I think it was the November royalty checks. I'd have to go through my emails to be sure. The checks weren't late across the board so I'm inclined to think it wasn't something nefarious. I think it might have had something to do with holiday mail surge and Thanksgiving holidays. Since I live way out in the boonies and have a rather slacker mail guy, my checks always arrive three-five days later than everyone else. I wouldn't have even realized if it hadn't been mentioned on the author loop. I think Raelene--who I've always found to be very sensible and quick to respond--gave an explanation and laid out the process for requesting a replacement check, etc.

That said, the ensuing kerfuffle on the author loop was jaw dropping at times. Authors voiced valid concerns about their late checks and a certain author proceeded to deliver rather snotty smackdowns. I found her "ra-ra" attitude incredibly off-putting. There's nothing wrong with asking questions about one's publisher. It's just business, you know? But this author-if evidenced by some of her past cheerleading efforts--confuses valid questioning of our publisher as a personal affront.

[mlhernandez]

All I do know is my October release (which was technically November as it came out after the royalty period had ended) was my most successful solo release ever, and my December sales were quite good too. So there is money coming in still on the ebook side.


Just wanted to second this. My November/December release was the best I've ever had. I was pleasantly surprised. I'd sort of wondered if the recession would have a huge impact on sales, but so far they're holding steady.

[priceless1]

All I do know is my October release (which was technically November as it came out after the royalty period had ended) was my most successful solo release ever, and my December sales were quite good too. So there is money coming in still on the ebook side.
I imagined their ebook side would continue to do well because that business plan hasn't changed any. I'm betting this rich sibling will bleed money into the print side in order to keep them afloat, and this can send a publisher to the poorhouse faster than I can eat a Twinkie. They'll have to support them or cut bait. I hope your book continues to sell well!

[Jersey Chick]

I'm not, nor have I ever been, an EC author, so all I know is what I read other places. But judging by some of the posts, the royalty check kerfuffle isn't the first time it's happened. Not that that in itself is suspect - I imagine it can happen without being part of some sinister plot. But if it's happening more and more, I'd have to wonder why.

I wasn't aware of the problems with their print program, as the few EC authors I do know have always had their releases in print as well. I was also a little surprised that very few, if any, EC authors know what the criteria is for a print release. And from what I've gathered, whenever an EC author has asked, no answer has been offered. I find that a little weird, frankly.

I would just hate to see what happened to Trisk's authors happen to EC's authors. Hopefully, they'll get themselves back on track.

[black13]

There's obviously something amiss with the print side, but so far it's not affecting the e-side. I'd heard that sales were down, so I waited for my November check with trepidation, but it was nice and healthy.
I've just gone on the print list for the first time, so I guess I'll find out. But I went with EC for the electronic side, so the print to me is a bonus, not an essential.
I remember the check kerfuffle, but as I recall it was a new author asking about it, and she was totally overwhelmed by the responses. There are a lot of highly emotional people on that group, but I've only been with EC for a year, so I'm still finding my way. I didn't join in, as my check, which is always a few days later than anyone else's because it has to cross the ocean to get to me, was on time.

[para]

I understand from the DA thread that EC's books/records are not independently verified. So when they say you've sold 200 books for instance, how do you know that you didn't in fact sell 300? If they are in as much financial trouble with the Print side as it is talked about it would be very easy to start creaming stuff of the top of the more profitable operation. Especially as there is apparently no oversight.

[Sakamonda]

If their contract is of any decency at all, there should be a clause allowing authors to do an on-site independent audit of the books (at the author's own expense) a minimum of once a year. If the contract doesn't allow authors to do that, that's a major red flag.

Many pubs don't do independent audits themselves if they are not public companies, but they should ALWAYS allow authors to do independent audits on request, and spell that out in the Royalties section of the contract. Every publishing contract I've ever signed has always had some sort of audit clause.

I'm not an EC author myself, but given what I'm seeing here and elsewhere, I definitely don't want to be one. And I say that as someone who once would have been proud to have been published there.

[shameless]

After reading the soap opera in progress on the Dear Author blog, all I could think was how much I love my publisher for being so professional and supportive.

Wow. Just... wow.

[Stacia Kane]

I understand from the DA thread that EC's books/records are not independently verified. So when they say you've sold 200 books for instance, how do you know that you didn't in fact sell 300? If they are in as much financial trouble with the Print side as it is talked about it would be very easy to start creaming stuff of the top of the more profitable operation. Especially as there is apparently no oversight.

You do have the contractual option to have an accountant view the records. I don't know of any publisher who has their records independently verified as a matter of course before issuing royalty checks/statements.

That isn't to say it doesn't happen, of course (perhaps someone with more experience than me will comment on that), just that I've never heard of it.

[veinglory]

Indeed. Nor have I seen anything to suggest there is any problem with the honesty of their accounting. Generally an outside audit needs to be triggered by the author or another company doing business with the press.

[Shayla Kersten]

As a private company, EC isn't required to submit for an annual audit. However, if they use any bank for a line of credit--which most companies their size can't exist without--they are required to submit for an accounting review. Very rarely will a bank loan money to a business without certified financial statements.

[para]

Rumour of late payments at EC
http://karenknowsbest.com/2009/03/12/financial-problems-at-elloras-cave/#comments

[mlhernandez]

In my case, it's not a rumor. My check/statement is definitely late, but I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt on this one. We received a notification about EC changing banks and the delay in payment that would cause. Now, some authors have reported receiving their checks while others, like me, are still waiting. My only real complaint is that we haven't received any more updates between the first notification and now.

[Sakamonda]

I wonder if this is related to the huge losses they are rumored to be having in their print program (which their very bizarre lawsuit against Borders seems to confirm). Will keep a watch on this closely.

[Stacia Kane]

Haven't had any problems with my checks.

[mlhernandez]

Just wanted to post a follow-up to the check issue. It's definitely a problem between shifting payroll between banks.

[Brindle Chase]

Does anyone know if EC gives an auto-reply to submissions?

[justinai]

Brindle, when I sent them a query I got a response from an editor's assistant, saying my work was received. I then got a request for the full from the editor, and when I sent it to her she sent me an email stating she had gotten it and her estimated response time.

She responded well within her window, and even though it was a rejection it was still very nice. It even had my name on it (instead of the loathsome "Dear Author")

[Brindle Chase]

Brindle, when I sent them a query I got a response from an editor's assistant, saying my work was received. I then got a request for the full from the editor, and when I sent it to her she sent me an email stating she had gotten it and her estimated response time.

She responded well within her window, and even though it was a rejection it was still very nice. It even had my name on it (instead of the loathsome "Dear Author")


Oh thank you. That's good to know. I just worry when I don't get an auto-reply! I sorry yours didn't get accepted! Maybe I'll have better luck?

[ChrryBlssmGrrl]

Just for anyone out there thinking of querying EC, despite the valid concerns people have expressed in this thread, I decided to do so this week as well, because I know a few writers who are published several times over with EC and are very happy with how EC has promoted and sold their books, and paid their royalties.

Anyway, within an hour of submitting I got an auto response saying:

This is to acknowledge receipt of your submission or submission question to Ellora's Cave Publishing.
Our initial response time is one to two months. For submissions that pass initial review and are placed in queue for an acquiring editor, response time is two to twelve months. We do want to give every submission fair and unrushed consideration.

Getting an acknowledge is great, so you're not wondering whether your query ever arrived. Getting a time frame is even better so you're not fretting about whether to check for a status update or not. But these time frames do seem a bit daunting - up to 2 months to answer an initial query? Although, granted, the query EC ask for is really more like a partial so I guess that bit's not too bad. But anything from 2 to 12 (12!!) months to wait on a response to a full?

Eek! Anyone placed anything with them recently? Did it really take that long for you to get a response or was it quicker than that?

[michael_b]

Eek! Anyone placed anything with them recently? Did it really take that long for you to get a response or was it quicker than that?

I personally haven't, but a friend of mine has. When I see her online I'll see if I can find out what her experience is.

I do know it's been posted publicly, and mentioned at a convention EC held recently, that they want more emphasis placed on the plot and the development of the relationship than on the sexual acts themselves.

Good luck with you submission and keep us updated. I'm planning to submit to them at some point next year.

[ChrryBlssmGrrl]

I personally haven't, but a friend of mine has. When I see her online I'll see if I can find out what her experience is.

I do know it's been posted publicly, and mentioned at a convention EC held recently, that they want more emphasis placed on the plot and the development of the relationship than on the sexual acts themselves.

Good luck with you submission and keep us updated. I'm planning to submit to them at some point next year.

Thanks Michael, that would be very much appreciated. And I will certainly update as and when I hear anything back from EC...tho it seems like it might take a while lol

[Amy R.]

My experience with EC so far is great. It took two months until they accepted my first submission. And they accepted my second sub in less than a month. So, I really can't complain :) Good luck to everyone waiting to hear back from them!

[thethinker42]

I sent a query (1st 3 and last chapters) at the beginning of July...still waiting.

[mlhernandez]

Other than that check hiccup, I've had no real issues with EC. I love writing for them and have a totally fab editor.

I know the wait times are long. I would try to write for one of their calls. I did that a few years back and received an offer super quick that way. Once you're established with an editor, your wait times for answers aren't nearly as long.

Good luck to all of you waiting for replies!!!!

[honoluluwriter]

ChrryBlssmGrrl, I received the same confirmation email yesterday after having submitted their standard "query" packet. An hour later I received an email from an editorial assistant indicated that it had passed the initial review was was being put in the queue for editor review. specifically:

"Thank you for submitting to Ellora's Cave Publishing! Your manuscript has been read by our initial editorial reviewer and has been placed in queue for our acquiring editors to consider further. An editor will contact you if interested in seeing more of the story, though please be patient; further review takes anywhere from one to six months. We want to give every submission the careful attention it deserves."

So, it looks like once you get past initial review, the further review time on whether they will ask for a full isn't so bad.

Have you heard anything back? I will update when I do.

[para]

Dear Author blogged on EC's recent court case:
Christine Brashears, owner of Samhain Publishing, brought suit against Ellora’s Cave on April 2008. The details of the original suit I blogged about here. Ellora’s Cave filed a countersuit, alleging Brashear engaged in misappropriation of trade secrets, defamation, breach of contract, tortious interference with existing and prospective contracts, among other allegations.

Discovery (the exchange of paper documents, written questions, and oral depositions) commenced but Ellora’s Cave refused to comply with repeated requests from Brashear and orders of the court. Finally, the court found Ellora’s Cave in contempt and dismissed with prejudice (meaning that they couldn’t bring these claims again) all the allegations against Brashears. This occurred in November of 2009. (PDF ruling here).

Ellora’s Cave was given one last chance to respond to the discovery but instead of responding, they filed for a protective order asking the court to limit what documents EC had to produce to Brashear. The Court granted the motion in part and denied the motion in part. A pretrial hearing was scheduled.

No attorney showed up for the pretrial nor did any of the representatives for EC. I understand missing court appointments (I really don’t understand it but it can happen) but to not even follow up and provide even a lame excuse? This was the third attorney that EC had in the litigation, the previous two withdrawing.

As the court order noted, the court placed phone calls, waited sixty-five minutes, and still there was no response. The court then ordered a judgment against EC in favor of Brashear.

More here: http://dearauthor.com/wordpress/2010/03/05/elloras-cave-fails-to-show-up-respond-to-discovery-in-lawsuit/

[xccorpio]

Para, thanks for posting this link. :)

[para]

Karen Scott is asking if EC is having financial troubles. Again. Some interesting stuff in the comments.
http://karenknowsbest.com/2010/03/07/is-elloras-cave-having-financial-problems-again/#comments

[xccorpio]

Karen Scott is asking if EC is having financial troubles. Again. Some interesting stuff in the comments.
http://karenknowsbest.com/2010/03/07/is-elloras-cave-having-financial-problems-again/#comments

Thanks, that is EC authors' first hard experience.

[Cherelle]

thanks for this it was an interesting discussion.

[Cherelle]

Quick question for those who write for ellora's cave. Are you okay with EC having publishing rights for the length of the copyright? Is there an out because that's a hell of a long time. Can you negotiate that or is that set in stone?

[Stacia Kane]

It is negotiable, yeah, but my understanding is they don't usually negotiate it for first-time authors. And yes, there is a very definite, very clear and fair(IMO) reversion clause.

[mlhernandez]

They're fairly flexible on the contract. I had no problems getting the option clause narrowed to sequels only. It took one email to Raelene.

The reversion clause is very clear as Stacia said. If sales fall below a certain threshold, the book is considered out of print. There are some other ways for the book to be out of print but I'd have to dig through and find a contract for the exact words used.

[KimJo]

Just read my way through this thread, because a writer friend of mine, whom I fully respect, read one of my novellas and told me I should try for Ellora's Cave with it instead of the usual e-pubs I send my romancey stuff to.

So... getting really mixed messages on this company. My friend is pubbed with them and seems quite happy, no problems on her end with payments and stuff. However, another author I know has complained frequently and vocally about her dealings with them.

I know EC is a well-recognized name in erotic romance. Just really don't want to be tangled with a company that has a lot of issues.

Anyone have any more recent dealings with them? And have they resolved the payment issues they apparently had a while back?

[Stacia Kane]

The payment issues I think you mean were indeed to do with the switching over of accounts, and only lasted that one pay period (if they're the ones you're thinking of; I didn't have a problem that time but I know a few people did). I haven't heard of any issues since and haven't had any myself, so if anything has happened I'm not aware of it.

I haven't had a release there in over two years and I still get checks every month. Don't know if that makes a difference to you. :) I was always very happy there and felt valued, and my interactions with everyone there from editors to Raelene herself were always professional and friendly; everyone I've spoken to felt/feels the same. But everyone is different, and no publisher is perfect. My advice would be to ask your unhappy friend exactly what her problems were and really consider what she says. Talk to some people who are happy and see what they say. Maybe what bothered your friend doesn't bother others, or maybe it was an isolated incident or something early on that colored everything, or maybe she and the company simply aren't a good fit.

Good luck, whatever you decide to do. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions or anything.

[KimJo]

Thanks, Stacia! That really clears things up about the payment issues. My unhappy friend mentioned not getting royalties on time several times, but I've heard from a couple of other EC authors who say they've had no problems.

[mlhernandez]

I only had that one time issue and it was a bank change problem. One email to Patty Marks and it was quickly resolved. I also had no problem striking the options clause. Again, one email to Raelene and it was done.

[smlgr8]

My experience is that I've had books out with them since 2008 and have always received royalities on time (every month). And they've always been professional in my business dealings with them.

[KimJo]

mlhernandez and smlgr8, thanks for answering :) Got my novella finished today and sent it off to my critter. Should be submitting it to EC before the week's out. (My critter works fast... sent her my revisions this morning and she had them back to me within an hour with a couple more suggestions.)

[Erin]

I've never had any issues with royalty checks on my Cerridwen title either.

KimJo, good luck on your submissions!

[veinglory]

It remains the case that some authors report having persistent delays with royalty checks. Up to the present day. Why this should be the case for some and not others I do not know.

[ChristineR]

Okay, this sounds like a stupid question, but on the Cerridwen website we see:

We are always open for submissions in all our genres.

But that same page (http://www.jasminejade.com/t-writerscircle.aspx) links to a pdf that tells us:

At this time, we have an indefinite hold on new submissions to Cerridwen Press. Please check back with us in six months.

That's dated April 2010. Anyone have any insight here?

[smlgr8]

Last time I had contact with my editor there at EC, she stated Cerridwen is closed, and that included current authors there. This was only a month or so ago. I know when I had a couple titles out at Cerridwen they didn't do very well. I suspect their sales numbers might have something to do with the "closed to submissions.'

[KimJo]

Thanks, Erin :) Sent it off this morning, got a response that it's been received...so now I wait.

Emily, thanks for adding that... that seems to be the case for my friend, that she's had trouble with payments and such, while other friends have nothing but good to say about EC.

[Stacia Kane]

Last time I had contact with my editor there at EC, she stated Cerridwen is closed, and that included current authors there. This was only a month or so ago. I know when I had a couple titles out at Cerridwen they didn't do very well. I suspect their sales numbers might have something to do with the "closed to submissions.'


Huh. That's surprising, and kind of sad. My Cerridwen novel sold quite well. It still sells, actually, though per usual nowhere near the monthly sales it got in its first few months of release.

Of course that was also like three years ago, too.


Shame. There aren't a lot of places that do non-erotic ebooks.

[brainstorm77]

Huh. That's surprising, and kind of sad. My Cerridwen novel sold quite well. It still sells, actually, though per usual nowhere near the monthly sales it got in its first few months of release.

Of course that was also like three years ago, too.


Shame. There aren't a lot of places that do non-erotic ebooks.

I liked Cerridwen and it was a place that I was planning on submitting.

[smlgr8]

Well of course experiences may vary but for my Cerridwen titles (historicals so that might impact sales) if I made more than say $300 in royalties since they came out in 2008 I'd be surprised. I admit to not paying very close attention as the sales numbers are quite tiny. By contrast, my last title at EC, Trust, made $1000 in its first month of release in 2009 and is still making decent money. Quite a bit more than the Cerridwen titles.

Anyway, I have no reason to know for sure but I wouldn't be surprised to hear them eventually giving up Cerridwen for good. I'm guessing they are at the point they are evaluating their options there.

[Erin]

Well of course experiences may vary but for my Cerridwen titles (historicals so that might impact sales) if I made more than say $300 in royalties since they came out in 2008 I'd be surprised. I admit to not paying very close attention as the sales numbers are quite tiny. By contrast, my last title at EC, Trust, made $1000 in its first month of release in 2009 and is still making decent money. Quite a bit more than the Cerridwen titles.

Anyway, I have no reason to know for sure but I wouldn't be surprised to hear them eventually giving up Cerridwen for good. I'm guessing they are at the point they are evaluating their options there.

I experienced similar low sales on my one Cerridwen title (romantic suspense) and I've wondered how the imprint will fare in the future. I don't get royalties every month, but when I do, the checks come as scheduled. Of course, I only have one title out anywhere so this doesn't help my numbers.

My editor told me that CP was closed to subs only because they were booked out too far (and the hold included current authors as well).

[Brindle Chase]

Has anyone had much recent experience with their Exotika (not sure if I spelled that correctly) line? I'd love to hear about it. I have a couple shorts I was thinking of sending to that line.

[para]

Dear Author reports on the EC Brasher ruling
http://dearauthor.com/wordpress/2010/11/23/tuesday-midday-links-elloras-cave-gets-the-smackdown-from-judge/#comments

Ellora’s Cave has been in a contentious legal battle with Christina Brashear, owner of Samhain Publishing, since 2008....
<snip>

In the end, summary judgment was granted to Brashear and now all that is left will be a trial on damages and a hearing on attorneys fees.
In 2006, Forbes noted EC had pulled in $6.7 million in revenue in 2006 and another source pinned EC’s revenue in 2009 at $5 million. The ultimate bill for EC as a result of not participating in litigation is likely to exceed seven figures if you include attorneys’ fees and interest. Does EC have this amount of cash on hand to pay this judgment? EC can appeal and would have to post a bond for the judgment (usually 10%). The appeal standard for a decision like this is usually “abuse of discretion” and given the detailed account of EC’s misbehavior, it’s not likely (in my judgment) this decision would be overturned.
EC had filed suit against its first attorney but has recently dismissed the case (http://bit.ly/cJ9ja2) (PDF). The dismissal is without prejudice and can be refiled.


Full story and background on DA.

[Stacia Kane]

My editor told me that CP was closed to subs only because they were booked out too far (and the hold included current authors as well).


FYI for anyone interested, Cerridwen is going to be re-opening as "Blush." So no, not going away. (Sorry, just saw the thread again because it was bumped up, and thought to mention this since it's recent news.)

[veinglory]

I think 'Blush' will be a line on the main EC website rather than freestanding like Cerridwen was?

[BarbaraSheridan]

I think 'Blush' will be a line on the main EC website rather than freestanding like Cerridwen was?

That's my understanding. I don't know if it will give a boost to Cerridwen backlist titles, but hopefully it will.

[gingerwoman]

For those that don't know "Blush" EC's non erotic romance line is available on the main EC site.

[gingerwoman]

I'm surprised there isn't more recent information about Ellora's Cave since 2010 in this thread. Given how many new lines they have started I would imagine they've bounced back rather well from their legal battles?

[Ann_Mayburn]

I can't speak for other authors, only myself, but I have one book out with them for their 'Exotica' line(erotica) and it's done really well. :) Also, without going into specifics, I found the newest version of their contract to be fair and I signed it without requesting any changes. Things mentioned before are not in there now.

[KimJo]

I have several books out with EC and another under contract. The contract terms have seemed fair to me. Other authors I've spoken with have had success in negotiating their contracts to be even more beneficial to them. I've had no problem receiving royalties on time (which I believe was an issue in the past), and have been able to reach the people I needed to reach any time I've had an issue or concern.

[brainstorm77]

I can't speak for other authors, only myself, but I have one book out with them for their 'Exotica' line(erotica) and it's done really well. :) Also, without going into specifics, I found the newest version of their contract to be fair and I signed it without requesting any changes. Things mentioned before are not in there now.

Good to know.

[Deb Kinnard]

I've been on a secret Kindle buying spree (sssh! Don't tell my husband!) and some of the first titles I bought were EC's reissues of Roberta Gellis's superb medieval romances.

Was I surprised! Formatting problems, missing punctuation, spelling gaffes that weren't in the originals -- the lot. Does this happen a lot with e-books that have (probably) been scanned from print, or did EC go for rapid-release and not do the quality control I hear they're known for?

Just curious.

[DahlELama]

Deb--I can't speak to those specific titles but I'm a copy editor for EC and I can tell you they definitely send reissues to us for editing so hopefully those were just flukes! Although changes to the original, especially "missing" punctuation, may simply have been a function of conforming to the EC style guide, which is more informal on punctuation than some other publishers. It actually would potentially happen that commas or semi-colons would intentionally be removed.

[KathleenD]

The thing I keep sticking on is still in their Author Info PDF (http://www.jasminejade.com/docs/AuthorInfo.pdf) - all rights for the life of the copyright.

Are y'all saying the PDF is wrong/outdated? Wouldn't mind subbing something if so.

[Stacia Kane]

The thing I keep sticking on is still in their Author Info PDF (http://www.jasminejade.com/docs/AuthorInfo.pdf) - all rights for the life of the copyright.

Are y'all saying the PDF is wrong/outdated? Wouldn't mind subbing something if so.


There is a fair and reasonable reversion clause, though. You can always ask them about it/ask for clarification on it when a contract is offered.

[KathleenD]

Gracias, senorita.

[Silver-Midnight]

Is anyone had any problems with this publisher lately? I heard something happened with them earlier, but I really can't remember what it was.

[BarbaraSheridan]

Is anyone had any problems with this publisher lately? I heard something happened with them earlier, but I really can't remember what it was.

I'm not aware of any issues but then I'm pretty much a hermit all over in terms of behind the scenes news. My three EC books have been out a long time but third party sales are giving them a bit of life.

I'm really curious to know how that new EC for Men line will do.

[Silver-Midnight]

I was talking about this:

http://www.eroticromancepublishers.com/2009/03/elloras-cave-delayed-payment-veinglory.html


And some other stuff. I really can't find the article though.

[Stacia Kane]

I was talking about this:

http://www.eroticromancepublishers.com/2009/03/elloras-cave-delayed-payment-veinglory.html


And some other stuff. I really can't find the article though.


That's from 2009.

The delayed payment issue that occurred at that time is discussed rather extensively in this thread.

[mlhernandez]

That was a bank change issue. I was one of the authors affected and my replacement check was promptly mailed out to me. In 5 years with EC, that is the only issue I've ever had.

[michael_b]

I can't speak for other authors, only myself, but I have one book out with them for their 'Exotica' line(erotica) and it's done really well. :) Also, without going into specifics, I found the newest version of their contract to be fair and I signed it without requesting any changes. Things mentioned before are not in there now.

My understanding is that it's still 'life of copyright' though. If you can't deny or verify that in a public forum, could you please PM me. I need some advice here as I've been contacted by one of their editors.

[Deb Kinnard]

"Life of copyright" would be a deal-breaker for me. Plus, my agent would strike the clause and put in a more reasonable term.

[amergina]

If a contract has a life-of-copyright grant and a reasonable rights reversion clause, is that still a big concern?

Stacia (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6924480&postcount=131) noted above that that life-of-copyright isn't an issue if there's an adequate reversion clause.

Which is the same thing Writer's Beware says about small presses here (http://www.sfwa.org/for-authors/writer-beware/small/).

- What about the contract?
Whether because of ignorance, greed, or a combination, terrible contracts are common among small presses. Problems include life-of-copyright grants without an adequate reversion clause, [etc.]

(bolding mine)

So I guess the question I would have is if EC has a life-of-copyright grant, what are the terms of the revision clause?

[Deb Kinnard]

Yeah, Amergina, for me (and agent) it'd be an issue. Because my copyrights are inheritable, and my heirs may not know enough about the industry to request reversion. I don't want that to work against them. In addition, I'm opposed to "life of copyright" grants on the basis of fairness -- it works totally for the publisher and against the author. Of course, if they would warrant, in return, that they would produce my book in the media of my choice for the life of my copyright, and based on those sales, send me large quantities of money...maybe I'd feel differently.

[amergina]

Fair enough. Thanks. :)

[Silver-Midnight]

"Life of copyright" would be a deal-breaker for me. Plus, my agent would strike the clause and put in a more reasonable term.

Could someone please explain what "life of copyright" means?

That's from 2009.

The delayed payment issue that occurred at that time is discussed rather extensively in this thread.
Sorry. I didn't know. I wanted to make sure it still wasn't an issue with them.

[Erin]

Could someone please explain what "life of copyright" means?


Sorry. I didn't know. I wanted to make sure it still wasn't an issue with them.

It's life of the author plus 70 years after death.

[Deb Kinnard]

What Erin said. That's why these terms are not considered industry-standard. If you're say, 30 or so when you sell and agree to such terms, well, the publisher has your rights assigned for a very, very long time.

[Captcha]

'Life of Copyright' depends on the reversion clause in the contract. It's not usually absolute. Reversion clauses detail the terms under which the copyright will revert back to the author, and usually, in my experience, involve sales under a certain number. So as long as your book is selling well, the publisher can keep publishing it. But as long as my book is selling well, I don't think I'd want to mess with a good thing, so I wouldn't want to drop the publisher.

EC seems reluctant to have authors share contract details, so I don't want to give specifics, but the reversion clause in the EC contract seemed fair to me, so I signed. If it had been an absolute, no reversions life of copyright situation, I would have walked away.

[black13]

I've been with EC for some time. The contract is a toughie, but I found EC very easy to negotiate with. Each author has his or her own boilerplate.
It's the highest paying of all my publishers, and although sales took a dip, they're climbing again, thanks, I think, to the drop in prices on third party sites. Bear in mind that I write for all the top epublishers (or the ones considered so in terms of sales). Also bear in mind that it depends what you write - I write for a popular genre for EC.
If you're worried about the contract - talk to them.

[scarletpeaches]

It's good that the contract is negotiable but I don't see why an author wouldn't go elsewhere first, to a publisher that doesn't put this 'speedbump' in the way, contract-wise. Instead of having this clause removed or altered, why not go somewhere that doesn't have this problem?

[Filigree]

Which is one reason why EC is much lower on my submission list.

[LillyPu]

I'm not aware of any issues but then I'm pretty much a hermit all over in terms of behind the scenes news. My three EC books have been out a long time but third party sales are giving them a bit of life.

I'm really curious to know how that new EC for Men line will do.
I was curious about this too, for long-short stories. I was hoping it'd be more high-brow, like Playboy-type stories. But then I saw the covers.

[veinglory]

I think it says a lot about EC's gendered thinking more than anything. Amazon kindle sales how that outright sex fiction sells--but not just to men.

[LillyPu]

Wishful thinking, I guess. I was hoping to see in their guidelines, requests for stories with strong male leads who also think with their minds. :) And that 'story' is more, or at least as important as the physical trystabaloos. That the titillation happens in the foreplay. (There I go thinking like a woman...)

They said they did their polling. It shows how much I know about erotica for men.

Are they good to submit short stories to? I'm getting mixed signals reading through this thread.

Thanks!

[allenparker]

I have a submission with them presently. I chose EC for that purpose and wrote the piece with this in mind. I had been looking for an opportunity to see male work presented without the trappings of the normal romance/erotic requirements. Sex for sex sake and milling about in a male's head seemed more relaxed for me.

just a thought...

[LillyPu]

I have a submission with them presently. I chose EC for that purpose and wrote the piece with this in mind. I had been looking for an opportunity to see male work presented without the trappings of the normal romance/erotic requirements. Sex for sex sake and milling about in a male's head seemed more relaxed for me.

just a thought...
Thanks for the thought. Do you mind saying what the wordcount to your story is? And title? Is it posted anywhere here for review, or critique? I did read the openings to the four titles they have so far, and mostly get the idea, but they seem to be similarly told--same author?--I forgot.

I like the EC for Men logo.

I'm most likely going at it all wrong, taking a few sexy scenes from my novel and making it into a stand-alone short story. I know I'm probably wasting my time, but it still helps me sharpen my scenes.

[Brindle Chase]

The thing I keep sticking on is still in their Author Info PDF (http://www.jasminejade.com/docs/AuthorInfo.pdf) - all rights for the life of the copyright.

Are y'all saying the PDF is wrong/outdated? Wouldn't mind subbing something if so.


I have 2 contracts with EC now and they have always been very quick and willing to negotiate any term I don't find acceptable. They even have prepared contract versions for common negotiated items. I think you'll find them more willing to cater their contract than most publishers. All my experiences with EC have been phenomonal in every aspect.

[allenparker]

Thanks for the thought. Do you mind saying what the wordcount to your story is? And title? Is it posted anywhere here for review, or critique? I did read the openings to the four titles they have so far, and mostly get the idea, but they seem to be similarly told--same author?--I forgot.

I like the EC for Men logo.

I'm most likely going at it all wrong, taking a few sexy scenes from my novel and making it into a stand-alone short story. I know I'm probably wasting my time, but it still helps me sharpen my scenes.

Don't go by me. They may not even like my story, how I tell it, or how the plot unfolds. The mindset I have for the story might not be what they are looking for. After reading the excerpts they have on the website, I may be all wrong. if you follow me, you may be following the wrong person.