Which Shakespearien Play is the MOST Speculative?

badducky · Oct 16, 2007

The Bard was the king of the convenient artistic magickery.

Which play do you consider the most speculative?

Is it Midsummer Night's Dream with the fairies and the transformations?

The Tempest, of course, has all sorts of spells and mystical beings, and it was the basis of a very famous science-fiction movie.

Ghosts rise from the dead. Wives return with witchcraft from statuary. The whole city of Verona was a fiction. The historical plays - especially the Roman ones - were re-imaginings of history wherein folk walked 'round in doublets weilding rapiers.

Which play is the MOST speculative?

Discuss.

C.bronco · Oct 16, 2007

oy.
Maybe it's the time of the year, but I'll put in a vote for Macbeth. In addition to the weird sisters and ghosts, it had "a steady storm of correspondences" between what was occurring in the natural world and what was occurring in the plot, dark and stormy night and whatnot.

Toothpaste · Oct 16, 2007

I agree with Tempest and Midsummer simply because it is the most obvious magic wise. Most of Will's plays have ghosts of some sort or some sooth sayer, so it is tough to choose. But I have to say that Pericles really has that action adventure quest thingy going for it. There is some magic (bringing people back from the dead) and visions and stuff. I know I know, Will might have only written the end of it, but still . . .

badducky · Oct 16, 2007

Pericles also has something in common with much of adventure fiction: It's terrible and cornball hokey!

However, one could make a very successful argument for Antony and Cleopatra as well as Julius Ceaser because the historical fiction is set in (to him) modern-day Elizabethan England complete with Doublets and Rapiers and whatnot.

I actually thinkhis re-imaginings of Ancient Rome take the prize, because that is an entirely science-fiction thing to do. Revisionist History is a whole sub-genre, and the entire plays qualify, not just nips and bits.

mscelina · Oct 16, 2007

And with that, I cast my vote for Coriolanus. What is the line? Nature requires a beast to know its friends or something like that.

Of course, it may have to do with the production of it I was involved in that was WWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYY out there too....

J. R. Tomlin · Oct 16, 2007

Nah... I think those are mostly attempts to avoid the obvious choice. And as is often the case, the obvious choice is obvious because it's correct.

The Tempest. It is pure speculative. Most of his others have speculative elements and some strong speculative elements. But Tempest is pure and simple speculative fiction.

badducky · Oct 16, 2007

See, I think the Tempest is more a shameless Court Masque framed by stuff to please the groundlings than anything. Though a court masque is speculative, it is just not as speculative to me as the paranormal elements of Hamlet, or the woman returning from the dead from her own statue.

Court Masques as a form were allegorical, not truly magical.

mscelina · Oct 16, 2007

*shrug*

I didn't pick The Tempest because it WAS the obvious choice. Which is more speculative in the long run...the obvious sci-fi/fantasy, or the horror thinly disguised as history?

Sunkissed27f · Oct 16, 2007

A Midsummer Night's Dream or maybe Pericles, Prince of Tyre.

I mean who can fault Thaisa's rise from the dead.

Being converted to a High Priestess by Lord Cerimon the magician.

Doodlebug · Oct 16, 2007

I know this isn't the most speculative play, but Hamlet's opening with the ghost and the watchmen stands as my favorite. I think that because there isn't as much of the speculative in the rest of the play, the haunted scenes stand out in starker contrast. Plus, I just love Hamlet (the play, that is, not the prince).

JBI · Oct 16, 2007

The tempest, then probably Cymbiline, then A Midsummer Night's Dream, then Macbeth, then Hamlet.
I don't count any of these as speculative in the sense that we think of speculative. I consider the magic more of a culture thing; English literature at that time was loaded with this sort of "magic", and treated these events as if they were real. In fantasy however, the magic feels detached from our own existence, and therefore beyond and separate from our world.

badducky · Oct 16, 2007

Explain that argument to modern day Wiccans, and astrologers JBI

RTH · Oct 17, 2007

Midsummer -- has to be Midsummer. Fairies, potions, enchantments -- the whole play is about enchantments. Mythological characters out of their context, for another thing (I'm thinking the Greek ones, especially, though certainly a bunch of the fairies are).

I don't know if the Romans-carrying-rapiers is an intentional act of historical revisionism, so much as it is a cultural artifact that influenced Will without him even realizing it. Historical "realism" wasn't important in theater until much later, and through much of the middle ages/renaissance you see people dressing biblical characters in their own contemporary garb -- chalk that up to a lack of experience with other cultures or archaeology, perhaps (though I guess the latter one isn't really a fair accusation, since it didn't exist!

)

So the historical plays are less like that novel "Fatherland" and more like "Killer Angels."

As a side note, since The Tempest came up, Dan Simmons does some interesting things with that in his new SF novels.

badducky · Oct 17, 2007

What about Troilus and Cressida?

Myrmidons traipsing around with rapiers and the invention of the profession "Pander"...

Accidental or not, it is utter fantasy to recreate the old world in the garb of the new.

Midsummer was set in Ancient Greece, let us not forget.

Doodlebug · Oct 17, 2007

RTH said:
...through much of the middle ages/renaissance you see people dressing biblical characters in their own contemporary garb --

...and on into the 1970's as well (if you've ever seen the machine gun toting centurians in "Jesus Christ Superstar" or Jesus as superhero in "Godspell", that is.)

badducky · Oct 19, 2007

After much research, I know the answer:

Love's Labour Won because the play was lost when Doctor Who banished the witch/aliens into the void along with their evil play.

Doodlebug · Oct 19, 2007

badducky said:
After much research, I know the answer:

Love's Labour Won because the play was lost when Doctor Who banished the witch/aliens into the void along with their evil play.

Oh! So that's what happened to it. Which Doctor have we to thank for that little snafu?

Evaine · Oct 20, 2007

The Tenth - David Tennant.
They were even allowed to film at the Globe, which is very unusual!

badducky · Oct 20, 2007

Evaine, Speculative Forces were at work in otherworldly ways.

What do you guys think is the single most Paranormal moment, and the single most Science-Fiction moment, and the single most Surreal moment, and the single most Magical Real moment?

Doodlebug · Oct 20, 2007

badducky said:
Evaine, Speculative Forces were at work in otherworldly ways.

What do you guys think is the single most Paranormal moment, and the single most Science-Fiction moment, and the single most Surreal moment, and the single most Magical Real moment?

I'd say all of The Tempest is sci-fi (ala Island of Dr. Moreau). Paranormal - as I said before - the opening of Hamlet. Surreal? Lady McBeth washing the blood from her hands or maybe poor Desdemona's final scene before she drowns herself (something about lunacy makes the ordinary seem otherworldly). Magical real might be the masquerade ball in Much Ado About Nothing (especially as staged by Kenneth Branagh).

Evaine · Oct 21, 2007

Do you mean Ophelia drowning herself - Desdemona gets smothered with a pillow, poor girl.

Toothpaste · Oct 21, 2007

Surreal moment? Ehem:

"Exeunt pursued by bear." (The Winter's Tale)

badducky · Oct 21, 2007

The Winter's Tale has another strong contender for most surreal moment.

Right at the beginning, when the King FLIPS OUT in jealousy for no discernible reason.

Seriously, I think he might be the original anti-hero. A despicable guy, who still holds the stage and gets everything he doesn't deserve...

Doodlebug · Oct 21, 2007

Evaine said:
Do you mean Ophelia drowning herself - Desdemona gets smothered with a pillow, poor girl.

Yikes!! Yes, that's what I meant. Thanks for the correction

Which Shakespearien Play is the MOST Speculative?

badducky

No Time For Chitchat, Kemosabe.

C.bronco

I have plans...

Toothpaste

THE RECKLESS RESCUE is out now!

badducky

No Time For Chitchat, Kemosabe.

mscelina

Teh doommobile, drivin' rite by you

J. R. Tomlin

badducky

No Time For Chitchat, Kemosabe.

mscelina

Teh doommobile, drivin' rite by you

Sunkissed27f

Doodlebug

JBI

badducky

No Time For Chitchat, Kemosabe.

RTH

Call me Ishmael

badducky

No Time For Chitchat, Kemosabe.

Doodlebug

badducky

No Time For Chitchat, Kemosabe.

Doodlebug

Evaine

badducky

No Time For Chitchat, Kemosabe.

Doodlebug

Evaine

Toothpaste

THE RECKLESS RESCUE is out now!

badducky

No Time For Chitchat, Kemosabe.

Doodlebug