How many submissions do you have out at a time?

The money is horrible in the short fiction market, and I get mad every time I check the What's New page on Duotrope and see a dozen non-paying markets, and one or two token payments. You're doing well to have 30 out on submission, though! I get crazy happy when I can manage ten out at a time (see my signature? I'm a bit behind for October).

Books is where the money is in fiction.

You could always supplement your income by doing some non-fiction, too.

Siddow said:

The money is horrible in the short fiction market...

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Well, I would have described it as non-existent, but that's just my bitterness talking. I have everything submitted. Like you, Lostlore, I have a backlog of stuff that I wrote when I wasn't submitting anything, just writing and workshopping and editing for 10 years. Basically, as of last year, my policy has been to have every story that I consider polished submitted somewhere at all times. That means that every time I get a rejection, I have a 48-hour window in which to turn around and send the story back out. In the last 14 months, I've added two mores stories to the cycle and gotten one acceptance.

I got an MA in Writing, but didn't pursue the MFA, because I was done. I didn't mind teaching Freshman Composition, but I didn't want to become an academic writer/creative writing teacher. None of the younger ones I knew were happy or very productive. Oddly enough, I still don't regret it. My secretarial job is menial and looked down upon, but I'm doing it right now. )

Fiction

Right now, as of today's mail, I have twenty-six short stories in submission, plus eighteen poems, and a couple of articles. I like having fifty long pieces out, but right now, for health reasons, this just isn't possible.

The money in short fiction isn't too bad, if you can routinely sell to good markets. Not an easy task, but doable. I'm not as big a fan of duotrope or Ralan as some are. They're both useful resources, particularly for new writers,but you really do get what you pay for, and both duotrope and Ralan leave a lot to be desired. Finding good markets is a big part of making money from fiction, and you won't find half of what you need by using such free resources.

I haven't found fiction to be any slower than nonfiction, at least when you're dealing with top markets, and a lot of them. More often than not, I had to wait weeks, or months, sometimes many months, when dealing with top nonfiction markets, as well. Until and unless you have regular writing gigs, publishing is always a slow business.

Of course, not many nonfiction writers make much money, either. The average selling freelance writer makes well under 5k per year.

But you're right, the money is in books. If you're lucky. But even the most optimistic numbers put the average selling book writer at under 12k per year, and a more realistic number is about 7.5k per year.

There is a lot of money in nonfiction, and there is a lot of money in fiction, but as someone once said, it's easier to get rich from writing than it is to merely earn a living from writing. There's very little middle ground. You either get stinking rich, or you make almost nothing.

I've managed to earn a decent living from writing most years. Sometimes a very good living. But not strictly by writing fiction, and certainly not by writign short stories. I've found I can, if I devote full-time to the effort, making something like 30k per year writing short fiction. But I can't begin to live on 30k, once taxes are paid, once health insurance is paid, etc. I'd be better off working at a job that paid much less, but that offered benefits.

In recent years, I've made most of my money ghostwriting. It pays pretty well, but it's haphazard, I don't enjoy it, so I'm not doing that now. Which means I'm back to scratching for a living like everyone else.

You earn a living in this business by being able to write fast, write well on the first pass, and by being willing and able to write anything and everything for anyone and everyone. If you can do this, you can earn a pretty decent living by primarily writing fiction. But you must be fast, you must write well enough to be able to hit good markets on a regular basis, and you must be able to budget your money.

Books are the meal ticket, but selling stories to X, Y, and Z won't sell your books. What it will do is get you read faster, and by higher placed agents and editors. It means your query letters do not have to be as good because you're writing will be read, even if the query is less than stellar. But it won't sell the book. The book still must stand on its own merit, still must make the agent/editor/acquisition board see more dollar signs than a competing book.

There's no denying that have stories in X,Y, and Z is an advantage, however. All things being equal, you will be two or three steps higher up the ladder than another writer who hasn't sold such stories.

I was dumb. I did the I have these stories and I'll submit them to markets I think might buy them thing. I was impatient and thick-headed. Well, that lasted a few months (can you say rejection twenty times) and then I got discouraged and finally listened to James. I pledged in September I was going to only submit one story.

After picking a publication I loved, researching the heck out of it, and writing a story just for them--I sent in my one. Did it work? No. They changed their guidelines on me. But I got a phenomenal rejection letter saying, for once, it wasn't me.

It was working.

So I took that story, found a similiar publication I loved, researched it, rewrote it specifically for that one, and bingo. They accepted it. So, I decided in Oct to submit just one. Did the same thing. Today I got an email, they like it, are considering it, and do I have any more like it? Are you kidding me???

Dang, James. That man knows what he's talking about.

Now, maybe this is all a fluke. And it certainly doesn't guarentee acceptances, but I have to say, doing it the "right" way has helped me. I'm convinced.

Here's the thing, I'm sure it had nothing to do with how many submissions I had out. It was the how I submitted. Now hopefully, as I learn, write faster, and become more experienced, I can up my submissions. But it's the most valuable lesson I've learned--it's pointless for people to give you great advice if you don't take it.

Right now, embarrassingly, only three. However, in the past, I've had up to ten stories out at any one time. I've been concentrating on my two novels and neglecting my shorts, both writing them and submitting.

Collection

lostlore said:

All it takes is one acceptance, right?

Thing is, with what looks like an average of 25-50 pieces that people have out at a time, if you even get half of them accepted that's enough for a book of stories. I think that if you're doing it right, and going full-time at it, you should have enough accepted stories every 2 years or so for a collection.

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This should be true, if your stories are in a single genre. But I've sold close to one hundred short stories, and am still a few stories short of a reasonable sized collection in most genres.

Trouble is, not all genres lend themselves easily to collections, and a collection is a tough, tough sell, even in those genres that do sometimes publish collections.

lostlore said:

Me too. I believe that's the way to do it. I know that's how it works for non-fiction articles, so why should a story be different?

It shouldn't, I suspect.

But in trying to follow this great advice, I'm dealing with two problems here:

First, there's all the stories I've already got, the ones I've written because they were stories that I had to tell -- as well as excerpts from my novels. I have a lot of them, they're polished, and I'm trying to find the best markets for them with the least amount of modification. But I did not sit down to write any of these stories for any certain publication.

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Yeah. Me, too. Only noone has bought any of them. The stuff I'm getting accepted is new and was written for that market. What am going to do? Well, I put a few to bed. Some, off to contests. The rest? Maybe rewrite? I don't know. It makes me sad, though. All that work. It had a purpose, though. Even if it wasn't to be published.

lostlore said:

That's a fantastic achievement. Is most of this genre fiction?

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It's a little bit of everything, but the bulk of it is outdoor and humor fiction sold to national glossies.

How do you target "literary" fiction?

To go back to the original question, I've got about fourteen subs out right now. Five stories circulating in all.

Now, to take us right back off-topic. There is a lot of talk about targetting stories to markets. I understand the struggle that both lostlore and twizzle have raised. But my question is: How do you target "literary" fiction?

After all, the term itself is purposefully inclusive. These magazines want stories that are well-written and compelling -- and each individual editor has a completely different set of criteria for when that is achieved.

So I was trying to think of how I would even begin to write targetted stories. Would I write a different story if I was targetting Tin House vs. One Story? How about Mid-American Review or Florida Review or Zoetrope? Let's go more extreme. Would I write a different story for The New Yorker than I would for the Idaho Review (and I'm not picking on Idaho; I could have put any of 50-60 other litmags in that slot)? My hope is that I aim for every story to be of New Yorker quality. And I guarantee you that the Idaho Review and similar publications would love to get first crack at New Yorker pieces.

So are there really definable differences in the litmag world that I can tailor my writing to?

A more provocative question: By trying to target "literary" stories, am I in danger of losing my personal style and voice that might make me publishable in the first place?

Target

You target literary stories the same way you target a genre story. You read several issues of the magazine in question, and use these to dissect the editor's want, likes, dislikes, etc. You look at the length or teh stories, the style of writing, the plots, the character type, and everything else you can think of to look at.

But here's the trick. You do not do this in order to give the editor a story exactly like the ones she has already published. You do this in order to give the editor something she hasn't seen before, but written and told in a manner she likes.

Editors want something new, but they want it told in a way they enjoy reading. Editors want characters they haven't seen before, but they want these characters drawn in a manner that makes the characters real to them. Editors want plots they haven't seen before, but structured in a way that makes sense to them. And so on.

If there's a secret to selling most of the short stories you write, this is it. Always something new, but told in a way a particular editor likes it told.

There's even a term for this in publishing: We want something just like everything else, only different.

mikeland said:

Would I write a different story if I was targetting Tin House vs. One Story? How about Mid-American Review or Florida Review or Zoetrope? Let's go more extreme. Would I write a different story for The New Yorker than I would for the Idaho Review (and I'm not picking on Idaho; I could have put any of 50-60 other litmags in that slot)? Absolutely YES. I'd never send the same story to Zoetrope as I would say to One Story. They are grouped under the term literary, but are very, very different publications. They all are. And their editors are all very different.

So are there really definable differences in the litmag world that I can tailor my writing to? Yes.

A more provocative question: By trying to target "literary" stories, am I in danger of losing my personal style and voice that might make me publishable in the first place?

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Personally, no. I think it's about learning to take your style and voice and using it to write something marketable for a specific publication. It's really not so different than nonfiction, I suppose.

Usually I have about 20 mss. out there (short stories, essays, poems, fillers...). For the past few months it's been more like 10.

It's interesting about knowing the market. So true. BUT there was a magazine I submitted a short story to. I knew it was a good fit. I received an email from one of the editors saying it wasn't for them. Then about a week later, the editor-in-chief sent an email saying she loved the story and would pass it around to the editors. I didn't say a word about one of her editors rejecting it. Ultimately, though, it was definitely rejected. Moral? Do your research but know that every editor within a magazine has a differing opinion on what will work for them.

As of this Saturday, I shall have one out to various magazines and a contest. The crazy thing with advice, though, is that it's subjective. What works for one person might not work for you. Targeting a specific literary magazine could mean publication for you or the editor having a bad say and setting fire to your manuscript. The way I see it, you write you and submit your work to anything and everything that you can wedge it into the criteria given. Even if it's just by a hair, do it.

I received some excellent advice from Mike Reiss, one of the founding creators and executive producers of The Simpsons (we're from the same town, met him there) was to just send it everywhere. He got to where he is today by being persistent. He submitted his work to places that, by their own guidelines wouldn't take it and many times he got rejected by sometimes he didn't. But it gets your name out there and editors talk. The worst that's going to happen is you're going to be rejected so really it can't hurt. You need balls, though, to do that so if you're feeling gutsy, do it. Again, advice is not like a "one size fits all" t-shirt. You do what you have to do to get published because that is what will work for you.

James, thanks for your take on literary magazine editors' interests. It really helps put things into perspective.

I might add that it could be read as an argument against targetting a story to a single magazine, though, which is the theory that has always bothered me. These editors have specific tastes, but they are certainly not mutually exclusive of each other. A well-written story may not hit any one editor's exact sweet spot, but may appeal to a cluster of magazines because it satisfies their need to find something similarly different. The key may be to identify the various magazines where it falls within (but not dead center of) their comfort zone.

I still think that for me I need to write the stories I want to tell and then figure out where they might be published, rather than targetting a magazine before I write.

17 short stories in submission now;
1 upcoming in an anthology November 2007
1 upcoming in literary journal December 2007
2 stories in current issues of literary journals
8 stories ready to submit, probably by end of this week
2-3 stories in progress now

And that's just my short fiction!

Twizzle said:

[B. The rest? Maybe rewrite? I don't know [/B]

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I would suggest rewriting and see what happens. I've sold several short stories that were rewrites of original short stories I wrote as far back as the 1980's.

Sure. You need to do what's good for you, what feels right for you. I, myself, tried that and got rejected. I slowed down and targeted and in one two week period got acceptances and placed in a contest on those I wrote specifically for. So, like I said, maybe it was a fluke and I'll end up with months and months of rejections now. But I don't know. All I know is that this is working better for me so far.

I guess yes, you target and still get rejected--but I'm not sure that means it's still a subjective crapshoot. I think it means you missed somewhere--you might have all the research, but not the ability to give them what they want. Say, The New Yorker. I've read enough to see what they want. Couldn't write something like that for the life of me. Even if I thought I had. It's no guarantee, certainly.

Anyway, targeting is working for me. I just got an email on a piece I'd written specifically for a publication. I'd noticed on top of everything else, what they were publishing over the last six months had decreased in word count. Certainly less than their guidelines specified. So I sent in something signifigantly shorter than what they asked for. The email said, can you make it even shorter, I'm looking for shorter stuff now. Sure. I'm so thankful I noticed it, because you know, that editor probably just dismissed a lot of stuff for length that technically met their guidelines. So yeah, I'm thinking there's something in this whole targeting thing.

Maybe it's the whole writing as art versus writing as a business thing? It's funny- I won't write poetry for specific publications. Like you, I write what I want. But stories? I'm like Mama needs a paycheck.

johnnysannie said:

I would suggest rewriting and see what happens. I've sold several short stories that were rewrites of original short stories I wrote as far back as the 1980's.

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Yeah. I know you're dead-on in your advice. It's just, eek, there's a lot of stuff there and lots of work. I know, I know.

Thanks Twizzle and congrats on all your recent successes. Sounds like you're having a great and well-deserved run.

Despite my stubborness, I have to admit that when I started thinking about my next round of submissions this morning, I was considering the markets in a very different light. That the great thing for me about AW -- it helps shake me out of some my set patterns.

As for the art vs. business thing, I'm sure lots of threads have discussed that. We all want the two to co-exist in the end. Making money from art, what a concept. That's definitely not how it's working for me yet. I've placed six stories in litmags this year -- total income: $30.

Jamesaritchie said:

There's even a term for this in publishing: We want something just like everything else, only different.

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(Pitches his notebooks and keyboard) Nailing this down feels like turning water into whine, I mean wine. I can't believe that it after all the how-to books I read ten years ago failed to mention anything like that. Though I may have been reading ll the wrong books. This notion has become so clear as of late that I've been embarrassed about the pieces I've sent out.

Oh ya, I've got a meager four stories out; three shorts and one long. I've got oen I plan to re-write to fit with a cetain publication and hope to make good on NaNo next month. Pheew!

Pike

On the money end, I have an English degree and I work in accounting. Hey, my student loans aren't going to pay themselves and unless I sell my soul to the literary gods, I'm not going to be able to repay them writing short stories. Hopefully in the next 20 years I'll write a book that will sell enough to do just that.