MAKING SALES

wee · Oct 15, 2007

Okay, another thread got me to thinking about this. Lots of historicals come out every year, but it is a genre that only a few do well in ... it seems* like fewer historicals (proportionately) do well compared to regular fiction.

So what I'm thinking about is ... what makes a historical go flying off the shelves? When do people who don't give a hoot about history start saying, "you gotta read this book!" ?

I have a few ideas, but I'm hard pressed to come up with good examples for all of them.

Romance -- women read a lot of historicals, and often love a little romance thrown in, even if they don't typically read romance as a genre. So a romantic sub-plot seems to help. Case in point, the much over-talked-about-recently Gabaldon books. Two different sets of people, history people & romance people, went nuts for her books. Not sayin' you have to write Gabaldon-like soft porn, but there ya go. Even some fantasy-lovers jumped on this bandwagon because those elements are strong in her books, too. My MIL hates romance as a general rule, but you mention Gabaldon & her eyes roll around in her head with delight. (Oh, I recently discovered that my father-in-law likes to read cheap romance novels. I find this very entertaining.)

High Adventure -- Okay, don't shoot me, but I was surprised how many elements of history have been in the Clive Cussler. Not history that I would be confident of quoting him ... but elements of history nonetheless. High-adventure books are very popular with men. There are better examples, but I don't usually read these that much. The Master & Commander books come to mind -- all about war & technical stuff & high adventure.

Mystery -- historical mysteries seem to do fairly well. Particularly if the mystery element is the main part of the plot & the history is just setting. I've read one of these before ... but it's not coming to me now.

Character-Driven/Literary -- I'm thinking of Tracy Chevalier now. Her books well-written for character & are very literary in my opinion. She found a "shtick", so to speak, with the art-inspired stories. Kind-of an unusual case, because I can't think of another good example. Her books have historical settings but aren't overtly historical. Philippa Gregory has done this with some of her books, but others aren't as good on this.

Tudors -- holy smokes, it seems like this is the only kind of historical anyone is reading or publishing! And some of them are really great -- but it's not a period I'm going to be writing in anytime soon. Am I doomed because I'm not writing about Henry VIII or his offspring? Or is this a sub-topic that is WELL saturated & the market is ready for the next big thing?

Is the main thread here that books set in various time periods do well, but straight historicals are relegated to small sales & a small section of the library? Here is a great article on historical fiction: http://www.irenegoodman.com/2005_11_01_archive.html#113337012661990657 This editor talks about the overwhelming response to Plaidy, who wrote a lot of tudor-era historicals. (Those Tudors again!) Is anyone familiar with her books, to comment on how they are written & what made them so popular?

So beyond the question of unquestionably good writing, what makes those historicals that fly off the shelves do so? I'm working on a theory that they must also have a strong element of another genre in order to be popular & sell well -- romance, mystery, literary, etc.

What do you think? Because we all want our books to be wildly popular & fly off those shelves like Harry Potter!

wee
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*Qualifying phrase, since I am frequently wrong

pdr · Oct 15, 2007

Hate to say it but...

what makes any novel fly off the shelf is what makes the historical novel fly off the shelf too:

Good writing.
Engaging interesting characters.
A cracking good plot.
And finally the 'ah hah' factor where the reader thinks 'people like me!'

lkp · Oct 15, 2007

pdr said:
what makes any novel fly off the shelf is what makes the historical novel fly off the shelf too:

Good writing.
Engaging interesting characters.
A cracking good plot.
And finally the 'ah hah' factor where the reader thinks 'people like me!'

I think this is so true.
And then write the book of your heart. Don't write Tudor just because everyone's writing Tudor. Write about the really interesting period that inspires you with tons of stories and that you are desperate to share and explain to others.

I did actually read an enormous amount of Jean Plaidy, under her many, many names (Victoria Holt, Philippa Carr) when I was younger. I was probably 12-14. She wrote historical fction in most periods of British history and many periods of French history; not just Tudors. Well worth a look, but I did feel after a while that distinctive characterization was not her strong point. Still, they did as much as anything to instill a love of history in me.

girlyswot · Oct 15, 2007

Hmm. I wonder if maybe asking why the Tudor books are so popular is helpful. Part of it, I think is familiarity, at least to some extent. Precisely because there's so much around, readers already have an idea of what they're getting into. The language, manners and morals are not wholly unknown which makes for an easier read. I find this, as a reader. Stories set in places I don't know and at times I don't know among people I don't know are just harder work. I like to recognise a few things that will anchor the story for me. I think, inevitably, some times and places will always sell better than others.

What else? Well, there is a great mix of politics, sex and religion among the Tudors. Whatever kind of story you want to tell, there'll be a good setting for it. So, if you're writing a different time/place, it's probably worth picking one which offers similar potential to make your story sparkle. It does have to appeal to modern readers at some level.

With respect to genre, I'd say that actually 'historical' isn't really a genre at all. By which I mean, it tells you nothing about the kind of story you're telling, only about the setting. If your story is neither romance, nor mystery, nor literary - well, what is it? What is the story, shorn of its setting? And then write that story as well as you would write it if it were in a contemporary setting. 'Historical' isn't enough of a selling point for me. If I want to learn history, I'll be in the non-fiction section. So, for this reader at least, the historicals are competing with contemporaries for my attention and my money.

PastMidnight · Oct 16, 2007

I was actually wondering about a similar question, trying to come up with in my mind 'subgenres' within the broader category of Historical and think of popular books that fill those categories, much as you've done, wee. Aside from 'historical romance', I couldn't think of anything else off the top of my head. But obviously there are different subgenres.

Someone else who has done art-inspired historical fiction (like Tracy Chevalier) is Susan Vreeland, who actually has a book about Vermeer as well. Caleb Carr comes to mind for historical mysteries.

I like girlyswot's analysis of why Tudor is so popular. 'Sex, politics, and religion'. Aside from the beheadings, it could be set in any time. If Henry VIII were a modern-day political figure, you had better believe he would be a favourite of the tabloids! Those are the sorts of historical figures that the general population could be enticed into reading about. Those of us who are regular readers of historical fiction are interested in reading about the lesser characters and the common man, but I think it is the flamboyant that attracts the attention of those who don't usually read historicals.

Jean Plaidy: I really want to like Jean Plaidy. She published something like 200 historical novels under various pen names ('Jean Plaidy' is a pen name itself) about so many periods and events. But I just can't get into her. I find her characters flat and her dialogue overwrought. I have a whole shelf of her books that I got from a library sale years ago and I've been trying to read through them so that I can take them down to the charity shop, but just haven't been able to get through the whole shelf. The books aren't bad, but in my opinion there are better books out there on those time periods.

Puma · Oct 16, 2007

Totally different perspective here - I read historicals to learn more about a subject or time period that interests me. Period. Because of that, I want authors who have done extensive research and have all the facts right. I wouldn't walk across the bookstore to look at a historical romance or historical mystery - I want only the real thing - a story that is as close to the truth of what happened as possible. So why would I even look at a historical novel instead of plain non-fiction? The answer is the people element - non-fiction is dry; good historical fiction lets you experience the situations through well written characters.

I didn't notice anyone mention historical fiction having to do with wars in the prior posts in this thread. But, in my opinion, that's a category most likely to catch male readers. Look at the success of all the novels about the American Civil War.

So there's a different perspective. Puma

lkp · Oct 16, 2007

PastMidnight, I think I'd feel the same way about Jean Plaidy if I was starting to read her for the first time today. And she's probably the reason I avoid books about certain time periods (like the Tudors) --- just because I read her first and I have such a feeling I have read everything before already. I think girlyswot is right that it is the familiarity (and the sex/death/religion) that makes people like Tudors but perversely, it is what puts me off at this point.

dolores haze · Oct 16, 2007

I read a ton of Jean Plaidy when I was a teenager. Many of her books were about female historical characters. This is probably why I enjoyed them so much - she was writing about women in history long before academia realized it had been ignoring 50% of human history, and started setting up women's history courses. I haven't read her recently. Either I grew out of them, or better writers came along and did a better job. I remember my favorite was the twofer about Lucrezia Borgia. It was a complete reinterpretation of an infamous woman with an evil reputation.
Many of her books portrayed royal women as pawns of powerful men. She wasn't a great writer, but she was a wonderful storyteller. I don't know if she has stood the test of time.

My personal preference for historicals is reading about the lives of people from a different era, and not just upper class and/or famous people. If I want to know about, for instance, the French Revolution, there are plenty of non-fiction books I could buy. But if I want to read about how people lived, loved, survived, thrived, died, etc during the French Revolution, I'm more likely to go looking for historical fiction. Although I could probably find a non-fiction book about that, non-fiction is not going to capture the human drama the way a big, fat novel will.
For me there has to be a great story in there. I appreciate (require?) meticulous research.

And I am more than a little tired of the glut of Tudors. There are fascinating tales to tell in every historical era. The more unusual the setting/era the more likely I am to pick it up. My most recent fave is Madison Smart Bell's Haitian Revolution trilogy. Brutal, bloody, and brilliant.

PastMidnight · Oct 16, 2007

Dolores, that is why I really want to like Jean Plaidy. So many of her books are about historical women that don't figure very often in other novels, even today. I agree with the distinction that you made: good storyteller, but not as good of a writer.

I also agree about the unusual settings/era/events. A book about a daredevil hot air balloonist will probably come home from the library, leaving the most recent Tudor novel on the shelf. I mean, I like my Tudor era as much as the next reader, but after a while, they all start to sound the same....

donroc · Oct 16, 2007

Perhaps I should market my novel to debut next year and set in 17th century Spain as contra-Tudor? There is said to have been a GOLDEN AGE of historical fiction -- 1930s-1950s during which the subject matter handled by Sabatini, Costain, Shallabarger, Payne, Yerby, Marshall and others covered the world and assorted centuries.

Who is to say, except for conventional wisdom, it will not happen again? And soon, I pray.

www.donaldmichaelplatt.com

johnnysannie · Oct 16, 2007

PastMidnight said:
Jean Plaidy: I really want to like Jean Plaidy. She published something like 200 historical novels under various pen names ('Jean Plaidy' is a pen name it

Her real name was Eleanor Hibbert and her pen names included Jean Plaidy, Victoria Holt, and Phillippa Carr. I have read most if not all of her books in the past - mostly in my teens - but in the 1950's and 1960's, she was a best selling major author. Publishing has changed in the decades since and what today's readers expect is not always what the authors of earlier eras offer.

Personally I still enjoy her work but I know that others do not. Her style - under any of the pen names - is vastly different than some of the authors today.

lkp · Oct 16, 2007

PastMidnight said:
I also agree about the unusual settings/era/events. A book about a daredevil hot air balloonist will probably come home from the library, leaving the most recent Tudor novel on the shelf. I mean, I like my Tudor era as much as the next reader, but after a while, they all start to sound the same....

I feel the same way about Arthurian novels too, by the way. There are a limited number of tired and well-known plot points that get rehearsed over and over --- you can see them coming from a mile away ("Oh. I guess Launcelot and Guinevere are going to have an affair now. *yawn*")

If you want to write a story set in early Europe, there are soooo many good places to start that have nothing to do with Arthur.

Puma · Oct 16, 2007

Going back to donroc's post - but look at the wide variety of subject matter written by the mentioned authors - Shellabarger with the conquest of Mexico, the Borgias, the Bourbons, Bayard, Lord Chesterfield, plus; Sabatini with everything from the French Revolution to pirates of Tortuga; Costain with the Plantagenets; and Yerby covered them all. At his prime Sabatini put out a book a year (I think Yerby did too) and they weren't clunks. And these guys didn't have computers to help them or Google to look up little known facts. I've read most, if not all, of all the books put out by these four because - they were fascinating and well done. Plus, they didn't become tawdry by writing continuously about the same topic (as in the Tudors).

And, I think, therein lies part of the modern problem. Historical fiction has become a little too predictable, a little too formula-matic, a little too tired. There are so many topics that have never been written up as fictional accounts - but where are the writers writing them?

End of my diatribe. Puma

PastMidnight · Oct 16, 2007

I think it's an ongoing cycle. There are a ton of things published in the Tudor period already and so a new historical author may consider it an 'easy period' to do, one where yo don't have to dig too deep to do your research. Then another book gets published, and the cycle keeps going....

It is nice when authors have a wide range of periods/topics that they cover. BUT I can also seeing the advantage of sticking to a narrower range of eras, rather than spreading one's research too thin. Nothing wrong with making the most of the research that you have already done

wee · Oct 16, 2007

Puma said:
Plus, they didn't become tawdry by writing continuously about the same topic (as in the Tudors).

And, I think, therein lies part of the modern problem. Historical fiction has become a little too predictable, a little too formula-matic, a little too tired. There are so many topics that have never been written up as fictional accounts - but where are the writers writing them?

End of my diatribe. Puma

Yayyy! I didn't want to say it, but I'm glad someone did. All the things I most want to write about are things I've never read anything about. I searched Amazon.com up & down, plus my library, looking for fiction in the era I'm covering ... nada, nothing, zip.

I love the tudors, too -- I'm completely over the moon that another Elizabeth movie is out & chomping at the bit to go see it next weekend...

But there's only so much I can read about this period before I'm just :sleepy:

girlyswot said:
With respect to genre, I'd say that actually 'historical' isn't really a genre at all. By which I mean, it tells you nothing about the kind of story you're telling, only about the setting. If your story is neither romance, nor mystery, nor literary - well, what is it? What is the story, shorn of its setting? And then write that story as well as you would write it if it were in a contemporary setting. 'Historical' isn't enough of a selling point for me. If I want to learn history, I'll be in the non-fiction section. So, for this reader at least, the historicals are competing with contemporaries for my attention and my money.

This is such a great comment. I didn't think about it, but I'm pretty much the same. I have two big goals for writing historical fiction:
--that no one who ever quotes history from my story will be made a fool of in public for doing so;
--that the reader will pick up history incidentally as they read a really great story

The new story idea I had made me realize I need to narrow the focus of the one I'm on. The real story I want to tell is of a people who are now basically lost to us (in the form they were in 500 years ago), and I need to
tell that story mainly through one very compelling character that readers can root for. If I tell them everything there is to know about this subject, what reason will the reader have to go back to Borders and look up this subject in the non-fiction section, or search for it online?

I want someone who reads my book (ya know, assuming publication & all that, LOL) to realize how freakin' fascinating these house-builders were, and find out more!

Archeology & Anthropology can't even answer all the questions I have about these people! Half the stuff we know has been learned in the past 5 years. I could say "past two years" and nearly be completely accurate. That is crazy man!

So anyway, I can't make my reader this fascinated if I don't give them a story that keeps them on the edge of their armchairs, with a character who they can't wait to see what happens to him/her ...

wee

julie thorpe · Oct 16, 2007

I had an email 'conversation' with an agent earlier this year. She said 'the market is hot for Philippa Gregory-style stories- juicy, sexy and with spunky heroines'. There you have it. Like others I am a bit tired of the Tudors.

There seems still to be a large number of historical mystery series - I'm thinking of Brother Cadfael and Sister Fidelma, English author Lindsey Davis's very funny Marcus Didius Falco
series set in Imperial Rome, and Elizabeth Peters' egyptian archeologists the Emersons. All good stuff and very well researched. So historicals do seem strong at present.

c.e.lawson · Oct 16, 2007

I had an email 'conversation' with an agent earlier this year. She said 'the market is hot for Philippa Gregory-style stories- juicy, sexy and with spunky heroines'.

Well, Julie - I'm just getting to the juicy stuff, and I've already started the sexy in chapter two (I defy you to find something sexier than a Spartan warrior

)which will run for many more chapters, and my heroine has been spunky all along, and I'm not familiar with many stories with a female MC in ancient Sparta, so... maybe there's a thread of hope for me. Of course the challenge is to finish this book before the market gets cold again. Ack. Why am I on AW? Better get back to my word processor.

Puma · Oct 16, 2007

Wee - If you want to feel your story, climb up to Puye ruins (near Bandolier Monument in New Mexico) when the sun is setting and watch the cliffs hiding the dwelling turn to purple. Then watch the moon rise up over the mesa through the lonesome branches of a pine. I swear, you can feel the presence of those whose pottery shards lie beneath your feet. For me, that was one of the mystic moments of my life - something I'll never forget. And yes, there are stories there made for telling. Good luck! Puma

Bourbon Street · Oct 16, 2007

Patick O'Brian's Master and Commander series hooked me entirely because the MC's are really, really interesting; very 3-dimensional, very complete and "real." The setting and events are interesting to be sure but almost inconsequential.

Bourbon Street · Oct 16, 2007

Oh, and maybe this should go in Rejection and Dejection, but in response to many of my queries agents are telling me, 'good writing, good story, but I just can't sell HF in the current market.'

Obviously, that is not true, because there's plenty of it on the book store shelves, but I think they might be saying it's harder to sell HF right now than some other genres.

c.e.lawson · Oct 16, 2007

Bourbon Street said:
Oh, and maybe this should go in Rejection and Dejection, but in response to many of my queries agents are telling me, 'good writing, good story, but I just can't sell HF in the current market.'

Obviously, that is not true, because there's plenty of it on the book store shelves, but I think they might be saying it's harder to sell HF right now than some other genres.

Yikes! I'm not surprised the agents are telling you good writing, good story, so good job there, but I just hope you've not met the right agent yet! Somebody out there loves to sell HF and CAN sell HF, right? *crosses fingers*

Don't give up.

lkp · Oct 16, 2007

Bourbon Street, you might want to consider a subscription to Publisher's Marketplace, even if just for a month or so. There's a big difference between agents who *say* they rep histrical fiction (on agentquery and places like that) and agents who actually *do* sell historical fiction.

And do you guys know this blog?
http://readingthepast.blogspot.com/
She's a librarian with a special interest in historical fiction, and sometimes she tracks sales in the genre.

Carmy · Oct 16, 2007

Seems to me Donald Maass is looking for historical fiction, but not the old and tired run-of-the-mill kind.

Plaidy under various names is one of the best reads, so is Norah Lofts and Ellis Peters.

wee · Oct 16, 2007

Carmy said:
Seems to me Donald Maass is looking for historical fiction, but not the old and tired run-of-the-mill kind.

Plaidy under various names is one of the best reads, so is Norah Lofts and Ellis Peters.

I saw on a really stupid site once where a guy had posted a rejection letter from the Maass agency ... in which Mr. Maass recommends a couple of writing books to him. Books written by Mr. Maass himself.

I know that the Maass agency is well-respected & all, and perhaps this is acceptable & I don't know it, but this just -- seemed distasteful in a way that made me think I wouldn't bother querying them.

wee

wee · Oct 16, 2007

Bourbon Street said:
Oh, and maybe this should go in Rejection and Dejection, but in response to many of my queries agents are telling me, 'good writing, good story, but I just can't sell HF in the current market.'

Obviously, that is not true, because there's plenty of it on the book store shelves, but I think they might be saying it's harder to sell HF right now than some other genres.

What kind of HF is it, and do you mind saying what time/subject? Are you querying agents that specifically handle historical?

MAKING SALES

wee

just a little

pdr

lkp

girlyswot

PastMidnight

Oponionated

Puma

Retired and loving it!

lkp

dolores haze

international guttersnipe

PastMidnight

Oponionated

donroc

Historicals and Horror rule

johnnysannie

lkp

Puma

Retired and loving it!

PastMidnight

Oponionated

wee

just a little

julie thorpe

c.e.lawson

Puma

Retired and loving it!

Bourbon Street

Bourbon Street

c.e.lawson

lkp

Carmy

wee

just a little

wee

just a little