Gender balance in fantasy

Zelenka · Oct 14, 2007

Hi all,
First off, sorry if this is a stupid question. Basically I'm in the process of rewriting my fantasy novel (or part one of it at least), and one of the things I want to do is get rid of my secondary MC because she annoys me, and so probably would annoy readers as well. I have a character who was originally in a minor role who I now want to be the secondary MC, but he is male and the MC is male. I was talking to a friend about this and she told me that would be an awful thing to do, as if I remove the girl character I have no females in prominent roles in the book. There are powerful women, ordinary women, ones in between but they are incidental.

So what I wondered was, does the group of principle characters in a fantasy novel (it's High Fantasy, a mixture of the 'quest' motif and a load of political twists), have to be mixed? Is my friend right in saying that in this day and age, I should have a main female character too?

I just went with what felt natural, see, and the balance didn't occur to me until she said it.

JessR

Azraelsbane · Oct 14, 2007

go with your gut. There's no reason to force a female mc.

Red-Green · Oct 14, 2007

That's a tough call. I can think of many examples where the balance between male and female characters is non-existent. Take the first and third books of LeGuin's Earthsea books. Or LOTR. Or a dozen other fantasy books in which the MCs are male, and the female characters are few, far between, and generally peripheral. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong/mistaken about having two lead males--after all, America is crazy for buddy flicks.

That said, if you know the market you're pitching for prefers male/female balance, or some opportunity for male/female romance, you may need to reconsider.

Michael Dracon · Oct 14, 2007

Don't worry about this at all. Go with what works best in your novel.

Marian Perera · Oct 14, 2007

My favorite fantasy novel is Watership Down, where females only make an appearance in the second half of the book, and their primary role is to be mates for the males. Although I love kickass female characters, the book is so good that I don't even notice the lack. Likewise, if your story is strong enough, I don't think the readers will notice.

(The converse also applies - adding a female character in a prominent position to a poorly-thought-out story doesn't rescue the story for me. Instead, it just makes it look as though the author's trying too hard to be PC. Star Trek : Voyager was a great example of this.)

Zelenka · Oct 14, 2007

Thank you all for the reassurance. The idea of it feeling forced was something that worried me. I did originally have a hint of romance in the plot but that was one of the things that really bugged me. My MC just isn't the romantic type. More the 'stab you quietly in the back' type. And I much prefer the dynamic between the two men to the MC and the girl.

Shadow_Ferret · Oct 14, 2007

The good thing about writing is there is no forced Affirmative Action. You can create whatever characters you want and make them whatever race, creed, color, and gender without having some government agency sitting over your shoulder going, "Uh-uh, you've got too many white males, you need to add a black woman, a hispanic male, and an asian bisexual."

Saanen · Oct 14, 2007

I agree with everyone else--go with what your story needs, not with what is PC. I'm shopping a book with two male MCs and almost no female characters at all, and I'm a woman so I say it's okay.

Just make sure that when you do have female characters pop in for a while, they're not wimps.

JoNightshade · Oct 14, 2007

As a female, I love to read and write about male relationships. So I don't think having an all-male cast is going to turn off your female readers. And guys are usually fine with reading about guys doing guy stuff. Actually I think the only gender imbalance that would cut readership is an all-female cast. Then you might get some guys thinking, "Eh, do I really wanna read a book about a bunch of girls?" (Actually I would probably think that too.

)

Oh, no, wait, there's one other one I can think of. My husband wouldn't read Lois McMaster Bujold's book, uh... oh, what was it called. Anyway it was about an entire planet of all males who married each other and reproduced and all that. He was like, "Ew, no." I said, "Oh come on, it's a good book!" No deal. Haha.

Judg · Oct 14, 2007

Most of my main characters are male also, but I do address that question in the book. Let's face it - in a world with no birth control, women are too busy to run around and have adventures. For the most part. But the women that do play important roles are not brainless wimps (nor or the minor ones). The MC's wife has her own area of expertise, for instance, and feels quite free to take initiatives.

Shweta · Oct 14, 2007

My vote is also for doing what the book needs, and not trying to paint your novel by numbers

But if I ended up in your situation I might also spend a little time thinking about why I was happier writing the males, and whether the female character was just annoying 'cause that's who she was, or if you're not sure how to write non-annoying main female characters. Stuff like that. (And, do you read a lot of books with female char.s you find compelling? I used to have a lot of problem writing women, until my reading patterns changed some.)

I mean, by the way, that these may be things to think about for later books, not this one -- the characters seem to be telling you what to do for this one.

Random thoughts about points brought up earlier:

I think it's worth noting that all the examples people have given about all-male great books* are pretty old, and that in the case of Earthsea, Le Guin has said she wrote Tehanu to tell the story she hadn't been telling in the first three books. Or something like that. I am Not Quoting Directly, just from memory.

It's also worth noting that most fantasy-book-buyers are women.

It is, however, still true that women are willing to read about men and men aren't as willing to read about women, as Jo said above. I'm not convinced that the latter part of this is in any way a good or healthy thing, but it is a thing.

* Except Ethan of Athos, which is fun but I wouldn't call it great. Plus, one of the two main characters is female

takkunelwood · Oct 14, 2007

I'd rather read a bunch of male characters who are well thought-out and fit in with the story than an irritating, obligatory female. If you force her, she's just that, forced and not fun to read. Do what works for the plot you're writing. You're obviously already on the right track for dropping the character that didn't work for you.

Zelenka · Oct 14, 2007

Shweta said:
My vote is also for doing what the book needs, and not trying to paint your novel by numbers
But if I ended up in your situation I might also spend a little time thinking about why I was happier writing the males, and whether the female character was just annoying 'cause that's who she was, or if you're not sure how to write non-annoying main female characters. Stuff like that. (And, do you read a lot of books with female char.s you find compelling? I used to have a lot of problem writing women, until my reading patterns changed some.)

I mean, by the way, that these may be things to think about for later books, not this one -- the characters seem to be telling you what to do for this one.

I've written female characters before and I hope they weren't annoying. This one just was irritating. This story is (I hope) going to be part of a series, sort of. I have three sets of stories all in the same universe and all tying in to each other, but they stand alone as well. One of those has a female MC whom I love to bits. The other has a husband and wife as the two MCs.

Actually though I did have a problem with female MCs for a while but that hasn't bothered me for ages, and that's probably down to reading habits too. I just recently finished the Abhorson trilogy for one thing and I adored the characters there, as well as the universe.

Shweta · Oct 14, 2007

Oooh, I love Nix so much.

If you know you can write female MCs, and they're just not right for this book, well then, the book hath spoken and you must pay heed!

(Of course, this attitude leaves me with a bunch of stories I seem unable to sell).

Gray Rose · Oct 14, 2007

Redzilla said:
That's a tough call. I can think of many examples where the balance between male and female characters is non-existent. Take the first and third books of LeGuin's Earthsea books.

She compensated in her later books :snoopy:

J. R. Tomlin · Oct 14, 2007

JoNightshade said:
As a female, I love to read and write about male relationships. So I don't think having an all-male cast is going to turn off your female readers. And guys are usually fine with reading about guys doing guy stuff. Actually I think the only gender imbalance that would cut readership is an all-female cast. Then you might get some guys thinking, "Eh, do I really wanna read a book about a bunch of girls?" (Actually I would probably think that too. )

Oh, no, wait, there's one other one I can think of. My husband wouldn't read Lois McMaster Bujold's book, uh... oh, what was it called. Anyway it was about an entire planet of all males who married each other and reproduced and all that. He was like, "Ew, no." I said, "Oh come on, it's a good book!" No deal. Haha.

Well, let me put a balancing voice in.

I tend to dislike books with no strong female characters and will rarely read one. I dislike those almost as much as ones where women are thrown in as a wimpy "love interest." And why, just because there was a female character, did she have to be forced into being a "love interest?"

There are definitely readers out there who will be turned off. How many? I have no idea.

The fact is that the world isn't made up of males, and females can be just as interesting--frequently more so. I don't appreciate women being treated as red-shirts, brood mares or simply non-existant by authors, and ones who do it don't get my money.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't do what you choose with your own book, but you asked. Don't kid yourself that there isn't a reason why so many books now have at least strong female secondary characters and some (still a minority) have a female MC. It's because women buy the majority of books in this country; many women demand female characters in the books they buy; and publishers know it.

Edit:

It is, however, still true that women are willing to read about men and men aren't as willing to read about women...

So would you care to explain Paksenarrion, Honor Harrington, and Sassinak among a whole bunch more? I hardly think those were read ONLY by women.

Zelenka · Oct 14, 2007

I don't know if my original post was unclear. If so I apologise. I don't have 'no strong female characters' in the book. I don't have a female main character any more. I still have a fair amount of secondary characters that are strong women (in fact, the whole point of my story is the aftermath of a war, and the leader of the rebellion against the bad guy was a woman, and one of my really nasty antagonists is female). I don't consider my characters red-shirts, broodmares or non-existant. Being female myself I find that annoying in fiction too. It's just in this the female MC really didn't work, not because she was female or what have you but because I think she belongs in the other book, where she wouldn't be annoying, and the two male MCs seem to work really well for this.

So are secondary characters not enough, do you think?

Haggis · Oct 14, 2007

Are you trying to make a political statement or are you trying to write a story?

If quotas are important to you, save them for real life. As far as the story goes, write what works.

Kentuk · Oct 14, 2007

Stong males in a female dominated society would be interesting, particularly if they are strong in cooperation as opposed to conflict.

Zelenka · Oct 14, 2007

Kentuk said:
Stong males in a female dominated society would be interesting, particularly if they are strong in cooperation as opposed to conflict.

That is interesting, the idea of men who have worked their way up through a matriarchal society, maybe even after some sort of emancipation movement in previous years, so there's perhaps still some prejudice but the barriers are steadily breaking down.

The society I have for this book at least is fairly similar to ours in terms of the balance - religion plays a big factor as there are orders of men and women, as well as mixed orders, so the power's fairly evenly distributed. It's not something I go into much detail about in the actual story, though, more in my notes.

LordChess · Oct 14, 2007

If you a gender mixed power structure then it's a good bet that equality runs strong in this culture. There is nothing wrong with this; its a nice department from the standard male dominated world.

DamaNegra · Oct 14, 2007

JessRamage said:
Is my friend right in saying that in this day and age, I should have a main female character too?

I'd probably kick her. I hate putting females in just because they're female. Or blacks because they're black. Or asians because they're asian. Or hispanics or gays or insert your choice PC pick of the week. If you don't like the character take her away. If a male fits better, then use a male.

PC really gets into my nerves sometimes.

Shweta · Oct 14, 2007

J. R. Tomlin said:
WThat doesn't mean you shouldn't do what you choose with your own book, but you asked. Don't kid yourself that there isn't a reason why so many books now have at least strong female secondary characters and some (still a minority) have a female MC. It's because women buy the majority of books in this country; many women demand female characters in the books they buy; and publishers know it.

But the fact is that no book is going to be loved by everyone. And if the characters need to be male for the book, it's really not going to work trying to shoehorn a female character in.

We shouldn't be writing just for the market. Especially since nobody knows what the market is.

Edit: So would you care to explain Paksenarrion, Honor Harrington, and Sassinak among a whole bunch more? I hardly think those were read ONLY by women.

I don't see how it follows, form men being less willing to read about women than women about men, that there are never any books about women that men will read. So I'm not sure there's anything to explain.

That said, the only one of those I'm familiar with at all is Honor Harrington, and she didn't seem very plausibly or saliently female to me. Which is why I put the books down.

Gray Rose · Oct 14, 2007

Shweta said:
That said, the only one of those I'm familiar with at all is Honor Harrington, and she didn't seem very plausibly or saliently female to me. Which is why I put the books down.

I agree about Honor Harrington. Bujold's female military heroines are much, much more believable IMHO.

Write your best book. I'd much rather read a book with a strong and plausible male protagonist than a book with an annoying and implausible female protagonist.

Shweta · Oct 14, 2007

Gray Rose said:
I agree about Honor Harrington. Bujold's female military heroines are much, much more believable IMHO.

*heart* Cordelia.

Write your best book. I'd much rather read a book with a strong and plausible male protagonist than a book with an annoying and implausible female protagonist.

Hear, hear!

In addition, bear in mind that one book does not a career make. Nobody's going to think you're a misgynist because one of your books happens to have two male leads. I hope, I hope.

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