Is latter a comparative in the classic sense?

Lance_in_Shanghai · Oct 12, 2007

Should we say, "I like bananas, apples and watermelons but find the latter to have too many seeds" or is latter reserved for choosing the second of two? If it is to be used in the classic sense of a comparative, what is the proper form for three or more? Would it be last? We typically expect our alternative to be the former but that cannot apply to three or more.

melaniehoo · Oct 12, 2007

In this case I think you should say last. Latter refers to two and when reading that sentence it sounds like you mean apples & watermelons have too many seeds, as they are the latter of the choices.

IMO.

Lance_in_Shanghai · Oct 12, 2007

Let me be more Strunkian and rewrite: "I like bananas, apples, and watermelons but find the latter to have too many seeds"

girlyswot · Oct 12, 2007

Well, I wouldn't add the comma, but I would certainly say 'last' rather than 'latter'.

Lance_in_Shanghai · Oct 12, 2007

The comma after all but the last in a series of three or more, an absolute rule 50 years ago, is seldom used like this now. It seemed to me that Melaniehoo thought apples&watermelons could be a single item in the series as 'black&white films' could be a single item. Here's the final rewrite, using no pre-and comma and only one fruit with significant seeds:

"I like bananas, kiwis and watermelons but find the latter to have too many seeds"

Duncan J Macdonald · Oct 12, 2007

girlyswot said:
Well, I wouldn't add the comma, but I would certainly say 'last' rather than 'latter'.

Well I would add the serial, or Oxford comma -- as I was intructed by my parents, Anne Rand and God.

Dawnstorm · Oct 13, 2007

Duncan J Macdonald said:
Well I would add the serial, or Oxford comma -- as I was intructed by my parents, Anne Rand and God.

Don't you mean: your mother, Ayn Rand, and God?

Duncan J Macdonald · Oct 13, 2007

Dawnstorm said:
Don't you mean: your mother, Ayn Rand, and God?

Obligatory Monty Python reference:

[Introducing he new faculty member to his colleagues. After each introduction, Michael shakes hands with the one he was just introduced to]
Director to Bruce 1: "Michael Baldwin, Bruce."
Director to Bruce 2: "Michael Baldwin, Bruce."
Director to Bruce 3: "Michael Baldwin, Bruce."
Bruce 1: "Your name's not Bruce?"
Michael: "No, it's Michael."
Bruce 2: "Mind if we call you Bruce to avoid confusion?"
Bruce 3: [salutes with open beer bottle, then drinks]

melaniehoo · Oct 13, 2007

I wasn't confused, I was saying you should use 'last' instead of 'latter' because 'latter' implies the second part of a choice of two. Since you have three options and you don't mean the first, latter implies you mean the rest. I know what you're trying to say, I was attempting to point out where (I thought) the mistake was. I hope that clarifies my intention.

Jamesaritchie · Oct 13, 2007

Latter

"Latter" does not just mean the second of two, though this is often the primary definition. Any good dictionary will tell you it also means the last of several things.

It's perfectly fine, perfectly grammatical, to write, "I like bananas, apples and watermelons, but find the latter to have too many seeds"

But Oxford or not, you need a comma after "watermelons."

Old Word Wolf · Oct 14, 2007

Surprise, surprise: "latter," was long classed as a pronoun. H.W. Fowler's Modern English Usage (1926, 1964) describes it as such in a charming intro to his rather long discussion: "Latter survives almost solely in the latter, which provides with the former a pair of pronouns obviating disagreeable repetition of one or both of a pair of previously mentioned names or nouns."

More current linguists, including M-W editors, classify it as an adjective, derived from the comparative form of "late," and now allowed to refer to the last item in a list that may be greater than two items, as Jamesaritchie has already pointed out.

Cheerio.

Is latter a comparative in the classic sense?

Lance_in_Shanghai

melaniehoo

And thus we begin the edits

Lance_in_Shanghai

girlyswot

Lance_in_Shanghai

Duncan J Macdonald

Plotting! Not Plodding!

Dawnstorm

punny user title, here

Duncan J Macdonald

Plotting! Not Plodding!

melaniehoo

And thus we begin the edits

Jamesaritchie

Old Word Wolf