History and Fantasy

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jpsorrow

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History and Fantasy

This post comes directly from the "talk" I did for Leigh Grossman's fantasy class at UConn. In that class, they were discussing the role of history in fantasy novels, so Leigh asked me to do a discussion about that. That was pretty much all the guidance or direction he gave me, but I figured I'd at least bring up what I thought about the subject here. This isn't really a writing post per se, but rather a discussion of one of the favorite topics in the fantasy genre: Why is all of the fantasy out there so stereotypically European medieval in nature? I tried to get Leigh Grossman's class talking about this. It is something that writers in the field need to think about, even if in the end they wind up writing medieval settings for their novels anyway.

So the real complaint is that all fantasies seem to be medieval in nature, and in particular European medieval. Why? There are plenty of other cultures out there that would be great as settings for fantasy settings, and they just aren't used. So why not? Why do we stick to the same types of settings and worlds, when we could be using other influences such as ancient Japan, or medieval China, or even the South American cultures such as the Incas or the Aztecs. Where are all the Aztec fantasies? Everyone always claims they're looking for something new, but in the end we seem to wind up with the same types of novels. Is it because the publishers don't buy the new, unique stuff (contrary to what they say they're looking for) or is it that the writers just are writing them?

Before I bring up some of my points, a little disclaimer. There ARE fantasies out there that have different settings. I'm making a generalization based on the common preconception of the majority of the readers out there. Alma Alexander has unique fantasies based on oriental culture, which were to be featured in Leigh's class. Guy Gavriel Key uses specific cultures, even European cultures, to suffuse his work with a uniqueness as well, rather than the simple standard medieval settings. So there is stuff out there that fits the definition of "non-European-medieval settings". Everyone should go check them out.

But I think everyone will agree that the majority of the fantasies out there
have a fairly standard European medieval setting. So why?

My basic answer is because it's familiar. Being familiar means many things though. The most uninteresting thing about it being familiar is that a certain onus typically set on the writer's shoulder is relieved. In fantasy, you're being asked to enter a completely new world. The writer has to reveal this world to you. If the world is familiar, or has familiar elements in it, then the writer doesn't need to spend time explaining those elements to the reader in any great detail. For example, suppose I mention an inn or tavern. The reader immediately has an image in their head of this inn, without me explaining anything else in any detail. The reader has probably pictured a room full of many tables, mixed patrons, probably a shadowy booth or two, a few frazzled wenches, a hearth with a roaring fire, and someone is probably going to die. All of this comes along for the ride simply because the reader is familiar with the fantasy concept of an "inn". In essence, by using something familiar, the writer doesn't need to work as hard to bring that image to life for the reader.

If instead the writer is asking the reader to place themselves in a completely different culture, the writer will have to explain everything about that culture as it arises, because IT'S ALL NEW. It's unfamiliar. The writer can't simply say the main character enters a quidrall, and then go from there. No ones knows what a quidrall is. So you're going to have to spend time explaining what a quidrall is.

So yes, we end up with medieval settings because writers are lazy. *grin*
But that's not all I mean by using medieval settings simply because they are familiar. It's deeper than that. When I say we're familiar with those settings, I mean we were literally RAISED on them. That IS our culture, the base of our culture. We know all of the myths, all of the little nuances, all of the child folktales, idioms, all the games people played, all of the in jokes, everything about that culture. And I mean everything. And knowing all of this stuff, even unconsciously or subconsciously knowing it, infuses the writing itself with a life of its own. The writer automatically builds that life into their story without even realizing it, and the reader picks up on that. Picks up on it in a way that's impossible to describe. It's just . . . THERE. And when it's NOT there, the reader picks up on that as well. And when that subtle life isn't present, it destroys the reading experience.

So why is there not Aztec fantasy out there? Because writing that Aztec fantasy in such a way that this subtle, invisible LIFE is there, hidden beneath the surface, is nearly impossible. Because most of us writers haven't grown up with the Aztec culture. We don't know all of the games Aztec children played, we don't know all of the in jokes, the myths, the children's stories, the LIFE that they lived, and when we try to fake it it almost always comes across as just that: FAKE. It's hard to get that subtle life into the story if you weren't born and raised with that particular culture. It's not impossible by any means, I'm not saying that, but it's HARD, and it takes effort, and it's unlikely that if you try you'll be able to pull it off. And you'll KNOW that you're failing as you write it because it just won't have that life.

So our own history, our own culture, informs our writing in ways that we can't predict and can't be faked. At least not easily. So the reason we have so many medieval fantasies is because that's what we're familiar with. We KNOW it, on an intimate level, and we recognize it when that intimacy is missing.

That's what I think anyway. What about you guys? Any thoughts on this? I certainly haven't brought up everything that Leigh's class brought up, so I know this entire post is ripe for controversy and disagreement. Have at it!
 

drachin8

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Interesting. On a certain level, I agree with you (although obviously this doesn't apply to every writer in the world since familiarities should vary by culture). However, I think a lot of medieval-based fantasy is no less "fake" than an attempt at Aztec fantasy. I don't think many people actually know what games were played or food was eaten in those fantasized times of yore, but what they do know is a shared generic watered down version of medieval life and THAT is what these worlds get based on again and again. As for an Aztec fantasy, while the writer actually knows just as little about the true culture, they are perhaps too aware of how little they know whereas they are enveloped in the shared fantasy of medieval Europe (and you know, even in that it is a small subset of medieval Europe--no Hungarian or Polish or Germanic fantasies seem to commonly sprout up).

I find this all interesting because I have written short stories outside my cultural familiarity (Central American, African, etc.), and one of those (the African based one) I think would expand into a novel nicely. But whenever I think of novelizing it, my brain starts screaming at me:

"What are you thinking? You don't actually know anything about Africa! You only got away with your research because the story was a short! If you actually try to expand it to a novel, you are going to make a stupid mistake and everyone will laugh at you!"

Yeah, my brain hates me apparently. So, while I actually have equal real world familiarity with European medieval culture as I do with African culture, my brain only yells at me for the African idea. So, I guess that somewhat supports your idea above.

However, what I really wonder, is why we are not importing more foreign fantasy. I mean, surely somebody in those various and wonderful cultures is writing something based off of their conceived notions of their own past. Surely it is so! Is the cultural experience so different that it is not deemed marketable? Or have I just not read enough in my genre and thus missed the wonderful gems sprinkled throughout regarding societies of a different nature?

I don't know. More thoughts, anyone? This is way too early in the morning for me to be coherently philosophical...


:)

-Michelle
 

waylander

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I think many fantasy writers are also responding to what they have read in the canon, thus it becomes self-perpetuating. Also the publishers (or maybe specifically the marketing people) carry some responsibility. I've been told many times that publishers are looking for 'the same but different'. So the mighty epic Aztec fantasy will struggle for acceptance because 'it's too different to what our readers are buying'.

However, as I'm English, I have no problem with personally continuing to write within my cultural history.

Another fantasy series worth looking at from outside the 'Western European Medieval' is Ashok Banker's reworking of the Ramayana.
 

DeleyanLee

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When I challenge writers (especially unpublished ones) on this default, the answer I almost always get is "That's what Lord of the Rings was."

I wish I was kidding, believe me.

When I'm in the mood, I'll point out that LOTR was certainly NOT medieval, (outside using swords instead of firearms), in some detail to which their eyes usually widen to the size of satellite dishes when they realize they've been wrong because they never thought about it before. Of course Fantasy is always Medieval--what else can it be?

And then they generally stop thinking, go back to their Medieval settings and when I challenge them on it again, yes, indeed, I'm reinformed that LOTR was just that way.

*headdesk*
 

Shadow_Ferret

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History. Most of the writers who are writing medieval fantasies were taught Western European history. I think the answer is as simple as that. Had we been taught Japanese, or Chinese, or Indian history then we'd base our writing on that.

We write what we know.

I'm trying to incorporate other cultures into my writing, but it takes a lot of research to become comfortable enough with those myths and legends to the point where I can translate them into my own words, my own style. Otherwise I feel like I'm plagiarizing, almost writing verbatim those myths as I read them.

When I'm in the mood, I'll point out that LOTR was certainly NOT medieval,

What would you call it if not medieval?
 
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Shadow_Ferret

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So basically, you're arguing over a span of a few centuries? Weren't squires part of medieval times, knights, squires, serfs?

What was the exact timeline for Pre-Industrial? Medieval generally goes to 1500+.
 
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Doodlebug

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Everyone always claims they're looking for something new, but in the end we seem to wind up with the same types of novels. Is it because the publishers don't buy the new, unique stuff (contrary to what they say they're looking for) or is it that the writers just are writing them?

Wow! This is probably the most intersting thread I've yet to read. I've been curious about this very thing myself because I've wanted to write a novel/story/something regarding the Middle East for quite a while.

I agree with Waylander - there is something of a cannon out there. I've often thought of Sir Walter Scott's writings, the legends of Arthur and Robin Hood, and even Beowulf as the foundations of fantasy. Also, there seems to be a huge appetite among the public for that psuedo-English history setting as well. Recently I went to a Renaissance Festival and it was amazing to see how involved some people were in the ideas of knights/jousting/fairies (though I realize that the festival had very little to do with the actual Renaissance - it was an amalgam of Middle Ages, Renaissance, and totally made up never happened on this planet events.)

Drachin8 also makes a very good point. Although I want to write an Arabic something-or-other, I feel very out of my league. I've read Aladdin and eaten hummus, but that's about it. And, yes, I could research, but... (getting back to that whole lazy thing!)
 

Shadow_Ferret

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Hummus is... dirt?

As you state... laziness might be part of it.

Research is one thing. But having to essentially learn a whole new culture so you can be well-versed in it? That's the sticking point for many Western writers.

In my current WIP I've tried to apply some Native American myths and even that I found difficult. Even as an American my knowledge of Native American legend is sorely lacking. I did a ton of research, asked a few Native American friends, but even then I still feel what I wrote might be picked apart and criticized by any real authorities on the subject.

And I think that criticism by experts is the real reason many Western writers don't venture outside the European mythological canon.
 

Soccer Mom

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Best thread in a long time.

This is a pet peeve of mine and why I've drifted away from a lot of fantasy. It's also why I've based my fantasy world on something other than medieval Europe. But the research angle makes my head hurt and I've only managed 17K on the project. It think that's the reason so many shy away. It's hard. It's outside the "cannon" and outside our comfort level.

A few years back, I attempted a fantasy based on Japanese mythology and even though I've studied the subject intensively and travelled in Japan, I ended up setting it aside. I couldn't do it. Maybe someday I'll have the guts to tackle that one again.
 

DeleyanLee

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So basically, you're arguing over a span of a few centuries? Weren't squires part of medieval times, knights, squires, serfs?

What was the exact timeline for Pre-Industrial? Medieval generally goes to 1500+.

And the difference between 1900 and 2000 is nothing, eh? A matter of 100 years makes a lot of difference the closer to modern age you get.

FWIW, in Medieval times, squires were knights-in-training and basically did scut work for their masters. In Pre-Industrial England (roughly post Regency through mid-Victorian, 1800's), country squires were the gentry and magistrates and a favored character in a lot of Victorian literature.
 

Shadow_Ferret

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Actually, there has been a huge explosion in technological advances made in the last 100 years that doesn't compare to anything in past centuries.

So yeah, to me the difference between living in filth in 1500 and living in filth in 1800 is not a big difference. :)

But I understand what you're saying about LOTR now. Thanks for the explanation.
 

Saanen

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I've been trying to write a story based in ancient Japan, but I'm having a terrible time. I have nothing much to draw on that makes it uniquely Japanese, and it's hard to find good research books on the era (unless you're researching samurai or court life; peasants don't get much page time). I've read some Japanese myths, but I'm not sure how accurate the translations are.

It's sad to think that I have learned more about Japanese culture (although not history) from watching anime. Um, unless Japan isn't actually populated with catgirls and giant robots.
 

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I have a Fantasy based in Ancient Egypt which was mondo cool. No problems with the story or writing or research--my collaborator's husband died unexpectedly and she's not emotionally to the point we can get back to it yet. But at least she occasionally thinks about it, so I have great hope. This will be a very awesome book when it's finished. :-D
 

J. R. Tomlin

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I don't agree that most fantasies have a European setting. They have a fantasy setting that may be very loosely based on Europe. Authors tend to choose the culture they are most comfortable with to use as their basis, and most Americans are most comfortable with a loosely European base. But that does not make it European. My fantasy settings diverge greatly from Europe, although they have some very, very loose resemblence. It is deliberately loose and not because I don't know European history. I am a bit insulted 1. that you would make the assumption that writers don't know history and 2. that you think that we should not make up our own worlds.

I don't do historical fantasy. End of rant.
 

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I've been trying to write a story based in ancient Japan, but I'm having a terrible time. I have nothing much to draw on that makes it uniquely Japanese, and it's hard to find good research books on the era (unless you're researching samurai or court life; peasants don't get much page time). I've read some Japanese myths, but I'm not sure how accurate the translations are.

It's sad to think that I have learned more about Japanese culture (although not history) from watching anime. Um, unless Japan isn't actually populated with catgirls and giant robots.


Do you have Everyday Life in Traditional Japan by Charles J. Dunn? It contains good descriptions of the daily lives of farmers, merchants, craftsmen, doctors, priests, and (of course) samarai.
 

Voyager

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The dark, I guess you would call it urban fantasy I'm currently finishing up is based on Mayan and Aztec lore and a good deal of it takes place in Mexico.

ETA: a little elaboration. I'm Mexican, my parents are from Mexico, my grandmother is Mayan and there is a wealth of lore and tradition to be borrowed from.
 
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Soccer Mom

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I've got one set in civil war era Appalachia (Tennesee to be exact). But it's definitely fantasy. My MC has to battle the Erlking. :D Think the Wild Hunt collides with a Harvesting Bee.
 

Azraelsbane

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I've got one set in civil war era Appalachia (Tennesee to be exact). But it's definitely fantasy. My MC has to battle the Erlking. :D Think the Wild Hunt collides with a Harvesting Bee.

Mine has to bring down the Falcroix Legion. Rawr! But that's not until book 2. In book 1 she basically has to assist in the apocalypse and keep the other two MCs from strangling each other. It's tougher than it sounds. ;)
 

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I just finished a fantasy novel in which one group of people are built pretty strongly on the mythology of pre-Islamic Arabian nomads. Another group is built loosely on a combo of Zulu myths and the Sleestaks from Land of the Lost. Crap...did I just really type that?
 

jpsorrow

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I don't agree that most fantasies have a European setting. They have a fantasy setting that may be very loosely based on Europe. Authors tend to choose the culture they are most comfortable with to use as their basis, and most Americans are most comfortable with a loosely European base. But that does not make it European. My fantasy settings diverge greatly from Europe, although they have some very, very loose resemblence. It is deliberately loose and not because I don't know European history. I am a bit insulted 1. that you would make the assumption that writers don't know history and 2. that you think that we should not make up our own worlds.

I don't do historical fantasy. End of rant.

Actually, I think that the settings being "loosely" medieval and European in nature was what I meant in the post, not that they were based strictly on a particular European places and history. But they all have that same general medieval "feel" to them.

I don't know where you got the idea that I feel that writers don't know their history. I think I specifically said that writers know their own cultural history and that's why they write stories with that history as their setting.

And I certainly never said that writers shouldn't make up their own worlds! I'm just pointing out that the worlds you make up tend to be based (loosely) on your own cultural history. Because that's what you're familiar and comfortable with.
 

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The writer's language has a lot to do with it as well. For example, to me, words like 'pub', 'ale', or even 'village' have a European (or even a Candian) feel since I would be more likely to go downtown the bar for a beer rather than over to the village to the pub for a pint. Even though Tolkien has a lot of Nordic roots, much of his writing language is still British. Even Gaimen's "American Gods" which is set in the US seemed British to me.
 

Saanen

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Do you have Everyday Life in Traditional Japan by Charles J. Dunn? It contains good descriptions of the daily lives of farmers, merchants, craftsmen, doctors, priests, and (of course) samarai.

No, my library doesn't have it so I didn't know it existed! Thanks--I'm off to do an Amazon search right now. :)

Edit: okay, it's ordered! Along with four paperbacks....
 
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