Dialogue/"said" part 3

[maestrowork]

Do you prefer

"He's good at what he does," Joe said.

or

Joe said, "he's good at what he does."


I know the first one is the standard way of writing dialogue, but it also seems counter-intuitive: You have to listen to the line first before you see who speaks it. Obviously, it seems like it doesn't matter when people read... still, as a dialogue construct, it does seem odd. In plays or movie scripts, for example, you always tag first before the line:

JOE: He's good at what he does.

[Bufty]

I think most folk can 'read ahead' about four or five words max. In that case the terminal 'Joe said' registers in time to complete the comprehension.

What irritates me far more than the placement of 'Joe said' or 'said Joe' is the reading of several lines before discovering a speaker's identity.

Still on tag placement irritants, if I am meant to interpret dialogue as spoken in a particular way or with a particular meaning, I want to know that before I read the dialogue, not after.

Time for crusty Bufty to have a cup of tea and a biccy, I think.

[ccarver30]

Former.

[seun]

'Joe said' for me, too. Can't pinpoint why, but the other way irritates me for some reason.

[maestrowork]

That's why, if I have a long line, I would split it (at the right beat) with a tag. It irks me, actually, especially if it's a first line in a block of dialogue, to read a long speech with the tag at the end:


"Martha told me the other day Jeff was going to drop by and take Johnny to the park, but you know how it is. I really don't trust that man and if I had a choice, I would just move away and never look back. But what can I do? He's the boy's father and I don't have to like it. Not at all," Denise said.

vs.


"Martha told me the other day Jeff was going to drop by," Denise said, "and take Johnny to the park, but you know how it is. I really don't trust that man and if I had a choice, I would just move away and never look back. But what can I do? He's the boy's father and I don't have to like it. Not at all."

[sunna]

The former for me too.

What irritates me far more than the placement of 'Joe said' or 'said Joe' is the reading of several lines before discovering a speaker's identity.

I agree; there's little more annoying in a stretch of dialogue than not knowing until the end of a paragraph who is saying what - or worse, not knowing at all, and having to go back and count statements to see who said what. I'll usually put a tag somewhere around the beginning of the first sentence, then go back to the rest of the speech, unless the content makes it utterly clear who is speaking.

[Southern_girl29]

I don't care for it at the beginning of a line of dialogue either. Also, I always break up a long stretch of dialogue. I even do that in my quotes for one of my stories for the newspaper.

[ZannaPerry]

I think the word "said" is boring, but it's a must when writing and telling who's talking. The hard part is thinking of ways not to use it sooo much.

[maestrowork]

I think the word "said" is boring, but it's a must when writing and telling who's talking. The hard part is thinking of ways not to use it sooo much.

Nothing wrong with said. It's supposed to be transparent. I hope you're not trying to substitute it with too many "alternatives."

[Bufty]

I want to read the dialogue, understand what it means and know who said it -that's all.

Tags can become distracting if they are simply there to avoid using 'said'. Said is invisible - like it or not -unless overused.

There are techniques to avoid the overuse of 'said'. And in most cases exchanges are between two people which does minimise the need for its use.



I think the word "said" is boring, but it's a must when writing and telling who's talking. The hard part is thinking of ways not to use it sooo much.

[ZannaPerry]

I'm not. You have to use the word, and I don't want my story to sound fake with all these idoitic alternatives. It will sound strange. One of the first things my creative writing teacher told me...you can't hide from "said."

[KTC]

I just write it down the way it runs across the screen in my mind. Sometimes one way, sometimes the other. I go with the natural flow.

[Bufty]

Oops. I misunderstood what you said, too, Suzy. And like most folk, I don't use idiotic alternatives - I use sensible alternatives.

I'm not. You have to use the word, and I don't want my story to sound fake with all these idoitic alternatives. It will sound strange. One of the first things my creative writing teacher told me...you can't hide from "said."

[maestrowork]

Your teacher is wise. I hate it when teachers tell their students to use "replied, retorted, questioned, puzzled, smiled, laughed, snorted, giggled, responded... anything but said."

Like Bufty said, there are ways to eliminate the tags altogether.

[KTC]

Yes...i dig a string of dialogue without tags. when it comes to my writing it comes fast and furious...and that is the way it feels organically. And when i come across it in a book it's a bit of a thrill for me. puts you in the heart of the moment...right there with the talkers. It's when somebody doesn't do it well that it pisses me off. I get pissed off a lot as a reader...I don't like it when there is a page of dialogue without tags if the writer is not talented enough to make two completely individual characters and I have to go back to figure out who is talking. argh. done well, I love no tags.

[Sunkissed27f]

To me it differs.
It's all based on the opening paragraph Before the dialog.

I like for most of my paragraphs to lead you in to the dialog.

E.g.,
Rebecca and Tim strolled through the gift shop, Del Rio. Timothy stopped to peruse the china, as Tabitha walked on. Spying a shelf with several white objects on them, Tabitha walked over to it. Nick knacks of all shapes and sizes were arranged in an artful display. Tabitha ran her hands over one of the ivory figurines as Timothy joined her.
"This is a beautiful work of art,"Tabitha said -or-said Tabitha.
blah blah blah

ETA:
Hopefully by the time you get to one page, untagged dialogs, each speakers voice will be easily picked out.
I like writing each persons dialog with a different way of saying things (accents, etc).
Now, if we had all stuffy boring, the same voice infliction characters, then by all means tag away!

[Nateskate]

Do you prefer



or




I know the first one is the standard way of writing dialogue, but it also seems counter-intuitive: You have to listen to the line first before you see who speaks it. Obviously, it seems like it doesn't matter when people read... still, as a dialogue construct, it does seem odd. In plays or movie scripts, for example, you always tag first before the line:

Scripts are so awkward for me. I read them and they seem empty. That's why I appreciate scriptwriting as a unique art. They can visualize things I can't, where my mind wants to fill in a blank.

As far as dialogue construct, if it doesn't seem obvious in the initial write, it glares when doing rewrites after setting the WIP down for a time. I find myself juggling and flipping a great deal in edits.

[NeuroFizz]

Ray, the original question depends on the established rhythm of the overall block of writing. If you read it out loud, sometimes the best one will jump out just based on that rhythm. Other times, it won't matter, rhythm-wise. Then, you should consider if you've created a "rut" of dialogue attributions. If so, you can mix it up a little by moving the tag. Anything that will keep the prose from reading stiff, jerky (unless that's what you've intended), or repetitious, will help. If none of these matter, go with the standard and move on.

[JanDarby]

If there are more than two people in a scene, I'll put the "Joe said" in the front of a bit of dialogue to introduce a new speaker.

In other words, if Dick and Jane are talking, and then Spot speaks up, it would go something like:

"I'm hungry," Dick said.
"Me too," Jane said.
"Who's cooking tonight?" [implied that it's Dick, so no tag, but if there were a tag, it would be here.]
"Your turn."
Spot said, "But Dick only cooks vegetables. I hate vegetables."

Although, actually, I'd probably mix it up in terms of action in lieu of tags, and I might put the "Spot said" between the two sentences he speaks, etc. But I think generally it works to have it at the end (or in the middle of longer speech), b/c the reader probably knows who's speaking anyway, from context, and it's more of a confirmation, easily skipped, than anything important, except when the speaker isn't obvious (Spot, above), and then the tag leads instead of follows.

JD

[ChaosTitan]

Ray, the original question depends on the established rhythm of the overall block of writing. If you read it out loud, sometimes the best one will jump out just based on that rhythm.

I never used to mix it up and use both, but now I do. I've seen it done well in published novels and to great effect. Often, though, the attribution also contains another phrase in front of it to identify simultaneous action.

While Suzy struggled to catch her breath, John said, "It's not much further, I promise."

[Sage]

I never used to mix it up and use both, but now I do. I've seen it done well in published novels and to great effect. Often, though, the attribution also contains another phrase in front of it to identify simultaneous action.

While Suzy struggled to catch her breath, John said, "It's not much further, I promise."
This is pretty much the only way I'd ever be comfortable with using it in my own writing. I almost always have dialogue tags at the end or at the first pause. It just doesn't flow right for me at the beginning.

[J. R. Tomlin]

While I am much more likely to write something like:

"Martha told me the other day Jeff was going to drop by and take Johnny to the park, but you know how it is." Denise ground the stub of her cigarette out with a savage twist. "I really don't trust that man and if I had a choice, I would just move away and never look back. But what can I do? He's the boy's father and I don't have to like it. Not at all."

My characters rarely sit around talking and not doing anything. I only actually use dialogue tags when I absolutely have to. In a shot sentence, I'll use the first choice though and don't think I have ever used the second. :)

[Sage]

Yes, but we already had two threads on that lately.

[David I]

I don't think there's any a priori "right" way to handle this. It depends too much on the surrounding text and what the writer wants to emphasize.

I wrote a long post on my blog (http://davidisaak.blogspot.com/2007/09/dialogue-tags-and-mechanics-v.html) a while back that examines all three possibilities--tag first, tag last, and tag interrupting the dialogue:

I believe that all three have their uses.

[clockwatcher]

I just write whatever comes naturally. I write both ways. But with the latter, it usually also includes some action. What I don't write is:

"He's good at what he does," said Joe.

[Ken Schneider]

Doesn't matter to me. I do know that John Steinbeck did it lots 'O ways in 'Of Mice and Men.

George asked,
Lennie said,
said Lennie

Hey I write like Stienbeck, all over the place.http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif