Why Society Doesn't Catch Up

PeeDee · Oct 6, 2007

This is a blog article by L.E. Modesitt, Jr. It's very smart and, I think, also true.

Rolling Thunder · Oct 6, 2007

Interesting. I've started out with magic in my YA fantasy but by the end of the first book I've blended SF into it. The second book (if the first ever gets published) will split down the middle; science used by humans vs. magic controlled by animals, with one character blended unknowingly from both.

Maybe I'm on the wrong track and should write a nice cozy...

PeeDee · Oct 6, 2007

And I was going to post M. John Harrison's article as a separate thread, but now that I think about it, maybe they're related in a way. So here you are.

Rolling Thunder · Oct 6, 2007

Okay. At least I didn't take the exhaustiveness path. I took the path JK Rowling went; I kept my story in the real world and blurred the edges so that it was familiar but could be happening right next door.

The inventiveness vs. research part I don't have to worry about until book two gets put on paper.

Then...I'm probably sunk.

J. R. Tomlin · Oct 6, 2007

Modesitt's comments are all very well, but his books invariably are conservative socially, both his fantasy and his sci/fi, so putting down sci/fi losing readership to fantasy perpetrating conservative social values is a bit less than honest. And plenty of fantasy novels other than his are not conservative socially. I don't think he gives anything that holds up his theory at all.

As far as the whining about people making their world "exhaustive" that's one man's opinion. A world that isn't exhaustive is one I won't read about. One woman's opinion. *shrug*

PeeDee · Oct 6, 2007

J. R. Tomlin said:
Modesitt's comments are all very well, but his books invariably are conservative socially, both his fantasy and his sci/fi, so putting down sci/fi losing readership to fantasy perpetrating conservative social values is a bit less than honest. And plenty of fantasy novels other than his are not conservative socially. I don't think he gives anything that holds up his theory at all.

Well, he does admit that his own books are guilty of it all. Right at the beginning there.

And I hardly begrudge the lack of evidence, it's just a viewpoint. A musing on a blog. But I thought it raised an interesting possibility -- all by itself without examples -- worth thinking about and discussing.

badducky · Oct 6, 2007

My dad is a huge L. E. Mod fan. He was reading the books for years.

He went to a reading/signing and came back with this stricken look on his face.

"It's a GUY!" he said.

I suspect he had a quiet celebrity crush on a couple of the characters...

PeeDee · Oct 6, 2007

Until recently, I thought L.E. was a girl too.

But then, I thought A.C. Crispin was a guy, so....

J. R. Tomlin · Oct 6, 2007

I don't see where he admits that, PeeDee. He refers to only one of his books at all and remarks on it only in regard to education. He then assures us that the changes predicted in Sci/Fi will never come about.

I have a feeling I have heard that somewhere before--like about ever sci/fi prediction that ever ended up coming about.

I agree that it is interesting for discussion, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to agree with him. As a matter of fact, I very much disagree. I am perfectly willing to discuss my disagreement.

I take strong issue with his implication that fantasy supports conservative social values and thus increases its popularity while sci/fi doesn't and therefore loses popularity. This is, in my opinion, totally wrong.

Edit: I always knew that L. E. was a male, but I don't think that makes a lot of difference. Unlike Mr. Maass, (grumble grumble) I don't judge authors by their gender.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding his point, but that seemed to be the argument he was making.

badducky · Oct 6, 2007

Let me assure you that J M McDermott is still clearly a human male.

PeeDee · Oct 6, 2007

badducky said:
Let me assure you that J M McDermott is still clearly a human male.

Who?

J. R. Tomlin · Oct 6, 2007

I believe he is referring to himself--or am I misunderstanding, Badducky?

PeeDee · Oct 6, 2007

Ohhhh. I didn't get that. Whoops.

J. R. Tomlin · Oct 6, 2007

And, although I don't see that it matters much in a forum, but I am female. Human only after I've had my morning coffee.

PeeDee · Oct 6, 2007

Coffee doesn't help. I'm not very good with "jokes." Sigh.

badducky · Oct 6, 2007

I don't believe you Tomlin.

I have evidence your name is Jezekiah Rondalfo Tomlin.

Sworn affidavits, even.

badducky · Oct 6, 2007

PeeDee said:
Who?

Did somebody say something?

Silly PD, pumpkins can't speak. Except in pumpkin. Which sounds alot like this:

*squishy squish squish* *squish sqoosh squish squashle splunk*

And, of course they don't get to say very much, because they will eventually run out of matter with which to squish sounds.

J. R. Tomlin · Oct 6, 2007

badducky said:
I don't believe you Tomlin.

I have evidence your name is Jezekiah Rondalfo Tomlin.

Sworn affidavits, even.

You're right! I confess. I am a female named Jezekiah Rondalfo Tomlin. *hides head in shame*

benbradley · Oct 6, 2007

SF is like an old lover, or even first crush. I'll always remember her fondly. I suppose I'll write SF for myself (and what few others want to read it), and fantasy/mainstream/whever-it's-gonna-take to make money doing this writing stuff. Yes, I'm a prostate, er, a prostitute.

I recall the book titled "Do what you want, the money will come." I always had a suspicion it was too good to be true...

badducky · Oct 6, 2007

I've written only a very small amount of sci-fi, because it does tend to become "dated" and "out-dated".

However, anyone who's read Gene Wolf's Book of the New Sun or Ursula K LeGuin's Lathe of Heaven and quite a few other fascinating tomes know that this is not true among the elite authors in the genre.

And if you haven't read the Book of the New Sun and/or the Lathe of Heaven get thee to a bookstore lest the gods of spec fic smite thee!

Shadow_Ferret · Oct 6, 2007

When I was younger I read sci-fi and fantasy equally. But as I've gotten older, I've become strictly a fantasy reader. I have my reasons for not enjoying sci-fi any more, but it has nothing to do with political philosophy. And the fantasy I really like is urban fantasy. Urban fantasy isn't conservative, is it?

PeeDee · Oct 6, 2007

Gene Wolfe is a god among men, and also one of the kindest, smartest, best human beings alive.

The reason I guess it interested me is that I don't read a lot of true-sci-fi anymore. I used to, but I've faded. It was a big deal last week when I picked up Peter Hamilton's Fallen Dragons off the shelf and started enjoying it.

When I DO read sci-fi, it's the classics: Asimov, Zelazny, Wolfe, Sturgeon, the best of collections of short stories and other anthologies...

But then, I also don't read much fantasy. I don't like Robert Jordan (I like his non-fiction work) and I don't read George Martin, and Terry Goodkind is a freaking lunatic. The fantasy I tend to read are things like Neil Gaiman, Terry Pratchett, Emma Bull, etc.

I dont' totally agree with either article, but I thought they were interesting.

badducky · Oct 6, 2007

Interesting factoids about Gene Wolf and me:

We have the same Alma Mater (University of Houston)

He was an Engineering Major, I was a Creative Writing Major that lived with 2 Engineers and a Physicist.

He is a Roman Catholic convert. I am a Roman Catholic.

He >is< a god.

I am not. But I'm working on it. And I say this all the time: I want to be Gene Wolf when I grow up.

(This post brought to you by just over half a bottle of Little Penguin White Shiraz...)

benbradley · Oct 6, 2007

Shadow_Ferret said:
When I was younger I read sci-fi and fantasy equally. But as I've gotten older, I've become strictly a fantasy reader. I have my reasons for not enjoying sci-fi any more, but it has nothing to do with political philosophy. And the fantasy I really like is urban fantasy. Urban fantasy isn't conservative, is it?

I dunno, but I'm guessing RURAL fantasy would be conservative... Country Music, Guns, and God Bless my John Deere...

badducky · Oct 6, 2007

Yard Dog Press runs a series of anthologies about Bubbas in science fiction...

Lemme see if I can find the link...
http://www.yarddogpress.com/thebubba.htm
http://www.yarddogpress.com/bubbasof.htm
http://www.yarddogpress.com/thefour.htm

Why Society Doesn't Catch Up

Where's my tea, please...?

Where's my tea, please...?

Where's my tea, please...?

No Time For Chitchat, Kemosabe.

Where's my tea, please...?

No Time For Chitchat, Kemosabe.

Where's my tea, please...?

Where's my tea, please...?

Where's my tea, please...?

No Time For Chitchat, Kemosabe.

No Time For Chitchat, Kemosabe.

It's a doggy dog world

No Time For Chitchat, Kemosabe.

Court Jester

Where's my tea, please...?

No Time For Chitchat, Kemosabe.

It's a doggy dog world

No Time For Chitchat, Kemosabe.