"Prior publication" tactics by publishers?

WillowArcane · Oct 5, 2007

It's late, i'm tired and in pain, so please forgive me if this is in the wrong forum. I was just given a very interested bit of information that I would like to know if anyone could verify.

Has anyone heard about publishers considering those who put their works online, such as like the SYW boards of AW for critiquing, people who have "prior publication" and use it as an excuse to cut the pay rate on contracts?

Thanks for any info you may have!

veinglory · Oct 5, 2007

If the entire work can be found via google (which SYW cannot) they might have a reason to be a little miffed if they purchased first publishing rights.

Mac H. · Oct 5, 2007

From the point of view of a reader (not a writer) it makes perfect sense.

I don't want to open a magazine and see articles I saw on the web months ago. So those articles have less worth to the magazine.

That's the main reason I haven't really bothered with 'Reader's Digest' recently ... it just seems to be a reprint of the articles from the web 3-6 months ago.
(I know that was kinda how Readers Digest always operated .. but with the web it is a lot clearer. If the article is on a subject I'm interested in, you can be sure that one of the blogs I read linked to the identical article months ago)

Mac

WillowArcane · Oct 5, 2007

If this is truly the case, why would *anyone* who wishes to be published ever bother posting anything to the SYW forums? Why, regardless of the supposed fact you can't see posts there from google, would they want to risk it?

JoNightshade · Oct 5, 2007

Well, usually you're not posting the WHOLE work, and usually it's going to change substantially by the time it's actually posted. So I don't think SYW really counts. If it's the whole article or story, in it's complete form, then I'd say they have something. But just a part? Unedited? Nah.

PeeDee · Oct 6, 2007

Share your WOrk isn't findable through Google, anyway. Because it's passworded off. That's one of the reasons for it. Not only are you rarely posting the whole work, but it's usually in a different draft form than the finished copy you would send a publisher...and again, it's the password. It's only findable if you come to these forums and type in the password and go to the section.

ChaosTitan · Oct 6, 2007

What PeeDee said.

Googlebots can't find stuff that's in a password protected forum. That's why most folks have no qualms about posting work for crit in a password protected forum.

Key word: protected.

SYW is safe, as are other groups like Critters.

DeleyanLee · Oct 6, 2007

It has nothing to do with Google or search engines, it has to do with the legal definition of published and using up the rights you're selling.

First publication rights are used up if you post it on the Internet where anyone can read it. If the site requires membership (and passwords) for it to be read, it's not considered to be legally published. Having the password/membership requirements makes it no different in the eyes of the law than if you'd printed out copies and handed them to your crit group for comments.

You can't sell what you no longer have, after all, and first publication rights is a big deal. Selling "reprint rights" for something that's already free for anyone to read just doesn't make sense.

PeeDee · Oct 6, 2007

If you post it on your blog, or on fanfiction.net, or something, that applies. But Critters and SYW are safe, fine, useful, etc. Honest. I swear. With the number of professionals and Legal People running around this site, SYW wouldn't have lasted long if it was destroying your chance of getting published.

The last story I posted in SYW (ages back) I sold happily to publication, and it didn't change much from one place to the other.

maestrowork · Oct 6, 2007

It depends... if you're selling first print right, online publication may not be an issue (that's electronic right). But if you're just selling first rights, then yeah, it would include electronic. Posting an excerpt on your website or SYW won't violate that, but if you have the whole thing "published" on a public website then it would probably be considered published.

(disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer)

Chumplet · Oct 6, 2007

Just because something's posted on the internet doesn't necessarily mean it's published. If it's copyrighted... well, that's another question to ponder.

WillowArcane · Oct 6, 2007

Thank you very much for all your replies! Understanding the difference between printed rights and electronic rights especially, as well as why open domains are considered "published" places while passprotected are not, is invaluable. I'll be sure to pass this information along to him as soon as I can. =)

Jamesaritchie · Oct 6, 2007

WillowArcane said:
It's late, i'm tired and in pain, so please forgive me if this is in the wrong forum. I was just given a very interested bit of information that I would like to know if anyone could verify.

Has anyone heard about publishers considering those who put their works online, such as like the SYW boards of AW for critiquing, people who have "prior publication" and use it as an excuse to cut the pay rate on contracts?

Thanks for any info you may have!

Yes. And how can you blame them? Why on earth anyone would post an entire novel online is beyond me. It's nuts. Posting complete short stories is less insane, but still pretty silly, especially if anything approaching a final draft is posted.

veinglory · Oct 6, 2007

Areas that are passworded may still be considered published (to the extent of "made previously available to readers") although it is fairly rare; it isn't black and white.

Birol · Oct 7, 2007

If in doubt, be honest and ask the editor if they consider it previously published.

Sage · Oct 7, 2007

What about things like the "Post the last paragraph" thead, which isn't in SYW?

Birol · Oct 7, 2007

You're not posting the entire work. Why would posting one paragraph out of your work matter unless you're writing extreme flash fiction?

Sage · Oct 7, 2007

It's not the full work, but if you post in there every day (some people do it multiple times a day, include the edits, have more than one paragraph per post due to context), you've gotten quite a bit of the novel on there.

veinglory · Oct 7, 2007

If you write one paragraph, and only one paragraph, a day and post it the customer would still have to somehow open each thread to all of those posts and read them in order. I doubt many people would do that rather than just buying the published version.

That said, posting your entire novel online in any way or form is not a wonderful idea.

PeeDee · Oct 7, 2007

veinglory said:
That said, posting your entire novel online in any way or form is not a wonderful idea.

In fact, it's a really, really silly idea.

"Prior publication" tactics by publishers?

WillowArcane

Child of the Fae

veinglory

volitare nequeo

Mac H.

Board Visitor

WillowArcane

Child of the Fae

JoNightshade

has finally arrived

PeeDee

Where's my tea, please...?

ChaosTitan

Around

DeleyanLee

Writing Anarchist

PeeDee

Where's my tea, please...?

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray

Chumplet

This hat is getting too hot

WillowArcane

Child of the Fae

Jamesaritchie

veinglory

volitare nequeo

Birol

Around and About

Sage

Our Lady of Parentheticals

Birol

Around and About

Sage

Our Lady of Parentheticals

veinglory

volitare nequeo

PeeDee

Where's my tea, please...?