Limiting magic?

J. R. Tomlin · Oct 2, 2007

In writing a low magic land, the important point, it seems to me, is why is magic rare or not much used? In my last novel it was rare because it was controlled by the goddess who didn't want many people to have it. She gave it to literally a handful of chosen who could not give it to others.

In a land where magic is somewhat more traditional, I'm trying to decide the best way to limit its effect. I don't like the "magic has to use a human sacrifice" kind of systems which can make for a limitation or magic ages you so who would want to use it. I would prefer to find something limiting within the magic or magic system itself.

My magic system will be based on alchemy. The magic users use items and formulae to make magic effects.

Shadow_Ferret · Oct 2, 2007

Not everyone is inclined to use magic simply because its there. Some might consider it "dirty" or evil. Others might not like all the time needed to memorize spells and train. Maybe still others don't even believe in magic, thinking its so much hokum. I'm not sure you actually need to spell out the limitations. I think people being people limit themselves.

waylander · Oct 2, 2007

Only virgins can use it

J. R. Tomlin · Oct 2, 2007

Deleting--yeah that was rude and unnecessary but I'll let it go.

TheIT · Oct 2, 2007

In my fantasy world, using magic means channelling a power which comes from outside the universe itself in order to effect a change which breaks the physical laws of the universe. Channel too much power and you fry your brain.

Also, in this world magic is very dangerous. Raw magic produces uncontrolled effects.

MattDempsey · Oct 2, 2007

If the cost outweighs the benefit then magic will be used less.

If magical effects can be achieved with mundane methods for a lot less effort, magic will be reduced in importance in your world. Burn away a priceless, specially comissioned gold statue of a shovel to magically dig a trench or hire a team of diggers for a few coppers?

Of course, you would still need magic to make a steel butterfly fly, but perhaps the costs for doing so are stupendous so it hardly ever happens. "More diamonds, Igor. The mana fire is burning low..."

"Yesss, marthster.."

TheIT · Oct 2, 2007

FYI, the only alchemical system of magic I can think of offhand is in Lyndon Hardy's Master of the Five Magics. Might give you some ideas.

Tallymark · Oct 2, 2007

If your magic is based on alchemy, there's lots of plausible reasons why it could be rare. You could just say that the elements required to drive the reactions are very rare (and this could lead to interesting things such as fighting amongst powerful alchemists for control over mines, etc). Or, it may be that few people can afford a good enough education to be able to perform alchemy safely.

J. R. Tomlin · Oct 2, 2007

TheIT said:
FYI, the only alchemical system of magic I can think of offhand is in Lyndon Hardy's Master of the Five Magics. Might give you some ideas.

Thanks. That's part of why I was thinking of using it, but I could use a little nudge in figuring out how to use it.

rugcat · Oct 2, 2007

MattDempsey said:
If the cost outweighs the benefit then magic will be used less.

Or, somewhat similarly, every use of magic produces a related harmful effect to the user. A minor headache, or death, for example. Just how badly do you need that spell, anyway?

TheIT · Oct 2, 2007

For alchemy, limiting factors I could see are materials and process. The greater the magical effect, the rarer the materials. For process, maybe the ritual to perform the magic or create the potion must be performed by a specific person or in a specific place or at specific times of day or year.

Do potions have expiration dates? Does an old potion lose its vitality, or possibly become poisonous? How would the average person know whether he's using a real magical item or snake oil?

Also, alchemists have the reputation for being secretive. If one alchemist stumbles across a powerful formula, how would he keep his success a secret? In terms of modern times, think about perfume manufacturers, chefs, or the food industry. Lots of possibilities for industrial espionage.

How expensive is magic both to perform and to buy? Cost is a great limiting factor.

Any harmful by-products produced by alchemy? How do they get rid of the failed experiments?

J. R. Tomlin · Oct 2, 2007

rugcat said:
Or, somewhat similarly, every use of magic produces a related harmful effect to the user. A minor headache, or death, for example. Just how badly do you need that spell, anyway?

Nah, I find, personal opinion here, the 'magic requires human sacrifice' thing to be kind of a cheap fix. I believe the problems should come from within the magic system itself and be logical to it--such as that alchemical ingredients might be expensive or experiments might blow up--and not be something imposed from without.

MattW · Oct 2, 2007

I like the idea of making magic not worth the trouble.

It only enhance or amplify existing effects. It can make a sword stronger (but not unbreakable), an arrow fly truer (but not travel for miles), or a salve heal more effectively (but still take weeks to fully recover). Mix in with elaborate incantations that take extensive and tedious preparations, and magic becomes a lot less sexy and unlikely to be abused.

But if you really, really want something done in a year or so, it is possible.

J. R. Tomlin · Oct 2, 2007

MattW said:
I like the idea of making magic not worth the trouble.

It only enhance or amplify existing effects. It can make a sword stronger (but not unbreakable), an arrow fly truer (but not travel for miles), or a salve heal more effectively (but still take weeks to fully recover). Mix in with elaborate incantations that take extensive and tedious preparations, and magic becomes a lot less sexy and unlikely to be abused.

But if you really, really want something done in a year or so, it is possible.

Well, I think it should still be worth the trouble, but a lot of trouble and limited in effect. I agree with you, basically, and only disagree in degree.

Michael Dracon · Oct 2, 2007

J. R. Tomlin said:
My magic system will be based on alchemy. The magic users use items and formulae to make magic effects.

This one is easy:
- use exotic engredients and/or hard to find items
- make formulas complicated
- have the creation take a long time to complete
- make is so that it has a large chance of failure

Alchemy is mainly chemistry and physics. You probably had those at school. So you also probably know how hard it can be to make it work properly.

Hapax Legomenon · Oct 2, 2007

Uhhm, the magic system I'm working on is based on binary. Because of this, magic takes a really, really, really long, painstaking process to do.

If you're basing it on alchemy, well, regular alchemy was very toxic, especially to the assistants. It'd be interesting to show how a Lung suffers.

waylander · Oct 2, 2007

waylander said:
Only virgins can use it

That was intended as a serious suggestion.
It would certainly limit the number of people prepared to devote themselves to using magic.

Hapax Legomenon · Oct 2, 2007

waylander said:
That was intended as a serious suggestion.
It would certainly limit the number of people prepared to devote themselves to using magic.

That is a serious way to limit magic, I agree. Not just willing, but able to. Back in ye olde times you were usually married by the time you were 14. My guess is that if that were the case, magic users would be similar to monks and nuns.

Dave.C.Robinson · Oct 2, 2007

One I've seen work as a limit is that magic can't cause any net change in the world. Everything has an opposite reaction which completely cancels it out. If you want to raise someone a hundred feet into the air you have to expend an equal amount of force driving someone else down into the ground.

It worked in the story (unfortunately all I can remember was that it was in an anthology published by Zebra books sometime in the mid to late seventies).

J. R. Tomlin · Oct 2, 2007

waylander said:
That was intended as a serious suggestion.
It would certainly limit the number of people prepared to devote themselves to using magic.

As I recall that was the premise of Witch World.

I don't write historical fantasy so "ye olde times" doesn't come into it.

Edit: My problem with it there is that I see no connection between virginity and doing magic. What is the logic behind such a limitation?

Hapax Legomenon · Oct 2, 2007

J. R. Tomlin said:
As I recall that was the premise of Witch World.

I don't write historical fantasy so "ye olde times" doesn't come into it.

Edit: My problem with it there is that I see no connection between virginity and doing magic. What is the logic behind such a limitation?

Umm, you have to be married to a god, instead? I don't know.

Pthom · Oct 2, 2007

So far, all the posts in this thread appear to deal with magic as a talent or skill that someone, or some group of people possess.

Is it impossible to consider a world where magic just is and no one has the ablity to manipulate magical events?

badducky · Oct 2, 2007

Think of scientific technology in the wildest, unruliest parts Africa.

Yes, you can put a man on the moon. But, for the most part, it is far more practical to put food in one's belly repeatedly where that sort of thing is not always easy.

Thus, technology becomes the sort of thing thugs bring in from outside to dominate and lord over others.

In this situation, and/or a magical variation, such tricks and switcheries would be unpopular, and uncommon among the general population.

Hapax Legomenon · Oct 2, 2007

Pthom said:
So far, all the posts in this thread appear to deal with magic as a talent or skill that someone, or some group of people possess.

Is it impossible to consider a world where magic just is and no one has the ablity to manipulate magical events?

In that case, we'd be edging on the realm of fantastic realism. It really depends on what you relate it to -- if it's like science, well, science happens all the time around us but we don't really call it science, it's just stuff happening. Like when you bake a cake, it's all chemical reactions, but you're just baking a cake.

I believe that in a story where nobody can manipulate magic, whatever it was would still be held in awe (or as normal, depending on spiritual beliefs and etc.), but it wouldn't really be considered 'magic' as it typically is in a fantasy story.

Shadow_Ferret · Oct 2, 2007

Pthom said:
So far, all the posts in this thread appear to deal with magic as a talent or skill that someone, or some group of people possess.

Is it impossible to consider a world where magic just is and no one has the ablity to manipulate magical events?

Actually, I don't see get it. Magic exists, but no one can use it? What's the point in having magic at all then?

Limiting magic?

J. R. Tomlin

Shadow_Ferret

Court Jester

waylander

Who's going for a beer?

J. R. Tomlin

TheIT

Infuriatingly Theoretical

MattDempsey

TheIT

Infuriatingly Theoretical

Tallymark

J. R. Tomlin

rugcat

Lost in the Fog

TheIT

Infuriatingly Theoretical

J. R. Tomlin

MattW

Company Man

J. R. Tomlin

Michael Dracon

Urban Fantasy Geek

Hapax Legomenon

waylander

Who's going for a beer?

Hapax Legomenon

Dave.C.Robinson

... with the High Command

J. R. Tomlin

Hapax Legomenon

Pthom

Word butcher

badducky

No Time For Chitchat, Kemosabe.

Hapax Legomenon

Shadow_Ferret

Court Jester